S01.E04: The Nexus Event

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Frayed nerves and paranoia infiltrate the TVA as Mobius and Hunter B-15 search for Loki and Sylvie

Dropping on Disney+ on Wednesday, June 30, 2021.

[tkc]

What was Loki going to say to Sylvie?

Where did Mobius go?

Who is pulling the strings?

And the biggest unanswered question:

...will Loki find Casey's cart from episode 1?

[Peace 47]

Noooooooo!!!!  Not Mobius!!!   (I feel like the Simpsons family when they display outsized worry for Lenny’s safety on The Simpsons - “Not Lenny!”)  This episode moved a mile a minute and I was here for it.

I get why whoever is behind this sham of a TVA is very afraid of Lokis.  Not only do we have something very powerful going on when the two Lokis are together (powerful enough to punch a time signature through an apocalyptic event, when previously, Loki established that nothing done during such an event can create a time signature), but also Sylvie’s ability to enchant and make people remember is the only thing that seems like it can penetrate the TVA’s brainwashing.  B-15 couldn’t ignore her instincts once she had been subjected to a glimpse of her old life.  And I found that scene she had with Sylvie out in the hurricane unexpectedly moving:  I wasn’t expecting to cry when watching this episode but it got a little misty here when B-15 started crying.

I super liked that Mobius and Loki viewed each other as friends and trusted other.  And I want Mobius to get his jet ski ride:  that was his last thought before he thought he was going to die because he had no other memories to hold onto.  Sniff.

[vb68]

Wow! Just wow in every sense.

So very much to process. And it escalated so damn fast.

What an episode.

They had me at Lady Sif.

Please don't let that be the last time we see Mobius.

BTW there is a mid credits scene.

Edited June 30, 2021 by vb68

[magdalene]

So, there was an older Loki and a child Loki in the mid credits scene - who was the third person?

[vb68]

I knew Ravonna was evil. She may not ultimately be in charge, but she sure ain't brainwashed. She knows what she's doing. The cool way she told Sylvie that she didn't remember Sylvie's nexus event as a child. Evil bitch.

Edited June 30, 2021 by vb68

[Peace 47]

3 minutes ago, magdalene said:

So, there was an older Loki and a child Loki in the mid credits scene - who was the third person?

It seems like there was a black Loki with a hammer and that the child Loki was holding some kind of lizard Loki—so 4 of them in that shot.

I half wondered if, after her detente with Sylvie in front of Roxxcart where she asked what was next, B-15 was able to replace the pruning sticks that took out both Loki and Mobius with something else (that sent them somewhere else).  Like, normally the pruning sticks do disintegrate you, but here, they transported you elsewhere.  It would make sense that Sylvie and B-15 would have hatched a better plan than just having B-15 release the restraint collars at the very end.  And Loki didn’t know that (hence why he looked devastated when Mobius disintegrated).

But I guess it may be more likely that those pruning sticks just send the variants to a reset training ground where they get wiped and retrained (hence Mobius, in episode 2, noticing but not remembering all the little clues in Renslayer’s office that he had been there before in other contexts).

 

[paigow]

All those Lokis together should create a supernova Nexus Event... which confirms the Redline is fake....

[Cthulhudrew]

When the MCU crosses over with Bill and Ted:

ETA: Also, feel like this remix would have been a fitting coda to the episode.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Cthulhudrew

[Featherhat]

Well, that happened. 

Little Loki was so cute. Not that this is new but wow the TVA don't make any distinction between someone who's deliberately causing mayhem and a kid who's a variant by accident. I imagine that and growing up at the end of 1000 worlds hasn't done much for Sylvie's sanity so I'm actually impressed she's as together as she appears to be.  Ravonna was ice cold in not even saying what was so important they had to "prune" a child. If she really doesn't remember that's worse because minor infractions get you just as reset as apocalypses. 

So they actually went there and started explicitly talking about a romantic relationship/feelings between Lokis on screen and Mobius mentioned the incredible narcissism in that.  I wasn't particularly surprised after the looks as Lamentis was about to end but I'm surprised it was explicitly referenced so soon, I thought there'd be a bit more subtlety than that for a few episodes at least. The end of Lamentis also reminded me of Jyn and Cassian at the end of Rogue One, not to mention still borrowing heavily from Doctor Who, I was getting extremely strong Tenth Doctor Era vibes especially with the music.

"Now I've got to have a Prince tell me how the real world works?!" That was a good one Mobius. Owen Wilson is really good in this role, he puts a lot of layers into what could be a fairly one note straight character. But you can see the difference between Mobius when he's 100% believing in his mission, Mobius lying to Loki and Mobius lying to himself without changing much. Then there's the obvious parts where he's trying to be subtle but signalling with neon lights to Ravonna. He realised he probably had a Jet Ski, this show *really* doesn't like to be subtle do they? Calling out absolutely everything they set up as explicitly as possible. I'm not complaining, just noting. Clearly he's not dead but probably gone for some rebrainwashing. 

I'm also glad we got a little more B-15 and she sure changed her tune quick the second she realised something was up. 

I'm also glad that we got to see more of Ravonna and Gugu Mbatha-Raw and yep she's up to her neck in what the TVA is doing and not a dupe like most working there. Mind you, with those (fake) bosses......

I'm glad that there's more to "who runs the TVA and controls the time line" than three evil lizards. It would have been way too straight forward for a Loki show but as I said, this show really doesn't do subtle. 

I hope that Slyvie's plan and the rest of the Lokis are actually more twisty than the standard sci-fi "destroy the Time-keepers/Lords/Masters and give everyone back free will". 

Lady Sif! I liked that Loki referenced "bad memory prison" as a trope but it still got to him.

Richard E Grant! This is going to be good.

[Bill1978]

Wow what an episode. It really does seem like this MCU TV series like to take it slow and build the story for the first 3 episodes and then by Episode 4 they start throwing all these moments at the screen to really keep you hooked. And I'm loving it.

I think I sad Holy Crap 4 times.

1st was the appearance of Lady Sif even if she was just an illusion - great to have her back. Even if I can't recall what has happened to her in the movie. Is she alive or was she killed in Ragnorak?

2nd was Mobius being terminated. Did not see that at all. I mean maybe by episode 6 but not Episode 4. Hopefully he isn't really gone.

3rd was the termination of Loki

4th was the mid credits scene. And Id like to think that's Kid Loki meaning my sowing the seeds for a Young Avengers something.

I am so pumped for the final two episodes, although just how much it will influence the movies I;m not too sure since there is a second series of Loki to come. Meaning it has to be open to continuing the story we are watching. But I have faith in Marvel

I also discovered with this episode that I really do prefer Loki walking around in a tailored suit and not his Loki outfits of the movies.

[johntfs]

44 minutes ago, Peace 47 said:

It seems like there was a black Loki with a hammer and that the child Loki was holding some kind of lizard Loki—so 4 of them in that shot.

I half wondered if, after her detente with Sylvie in front of Roxxcart where she asked what was next, B-15 was able to replace the pruning sticks that took out both Loki and Mobius with something else (that sent them somewhere else).  Like, normally the pruning sticks do disintegrate you, but here, they transported you elsewhere.  It would make sense that Sylvie and B-15 would have hatched a better plan than just having B-15 release the restraint collars at the very end.  And Loki didn’t know that (hence why he looked devastated when Mobius disintegrated).

But I guess it may be more likely that those pruning sticks just send the variants to a reset training ground where they get wiped and retrained (hence Mobius, in episode 2, noticing but not remembering all the little clues in Renslayer’s office that he had been there before in other contexts).

 

It seems very unlikely that B-15 would have been able to replace the specific random Eraser-batons that the guards were using.  Also, I can believe that releasing the restraint collar and tossing her weapon to Sylvie was the extent of the plan.  I mean, apparently the only tech/magic/etc. that works in the TVA is stuff from the TVA or just very basic melee weapons (swords/daggers/etc).  B-15 could be going for the elevator with three or four Eraser-batons because that would've been too suspicious and the only the plan works is through surprise.

Plus, figure that the TVA agents guarding the Time-keepers are probably good at fighting, but they aren't really practiced at it because no one has ever attacked the Time-keepers.

What exactly was the point in taking the Loki and Sylvie to the robot Time-keepers for deletion for Ravonna or whoever was running the TVA?  Just to be evil?  I mean, I'd have figured that right after pruning Mobius Ravonna would have had Loki pruned right there.

Also, dammit.  I need one of those TVA Time-door remotes so I can get to next Wednesday right now.

Quote

I hope that Slyvie's plan and the rest of the Lokis are actually more twisty than the standard sci-fi "destroy the Time-keepers/Lords/Masters and give everyone back free will". 

I don't think Sylvie really has a plan at this point aside from "make Ravonna tell me WTF is going on." 

Quote

I also discovered with this episode that I really do prefer Loki walking around in a tailored suit and not his Loki outfits of the movies.

Honestly I thought the best that Tom Hiddleston looked in The Avengers was when he was rocking that suit and walking stick right before the "eyeball" scene.

Edited June 30, 2021 by johntfs
adding more content

[arc]

Wow. So Ravanna (probably) isn't the "man behind the curtain", since she used to be an analyst. But she's a bigger true believer than Mobius or B-15 -- or she actually knows more about the truth of the TVA than they did. Enough to know that C-20 was speaking the truth. But I was right that all the pomp about the Time-Keepers was propping up a myth! Whoever it is didn't want to just come out from backstage after the animatronic got decapitated though.

I did feel cheated that we didn't get to see B-15's past life memory.

Ever since Sylvie said the TVA staff are all variants, I've suspected the "pruning" we see didn't kill variants, and I was doubly sure of that after Mobius and esp Loki got pruned. Feige & co didn't go to all that trouble to bring Loki back again in Endgame just to kill him off in the fourth episode of a six episode series.

I really ship Loki and Sylvie now. What a narcissist's dream though, to love yourself.

The Black guy in the mid-credits scene seems to be holding a variant Mjolnir. The defining characteristic of Mjolnir from the Norse myths is that it's a war-hammer where Loki made the handle too short to be wielded like a proper war-hammer, and this one has a short handle. (The defining characteristic of Marvel's Mjolnir is the worthiness enchantment.)

Edited June 30, 2021 by arc

[Featherhat]

10 minutes ago, Bill1978 said:

 

1st was the appearance of Lady Sif even if she was just an illusion - great to have her back. Even if I can't recall what has happened to her in the movie. Is she alive or was she killed in Ragnorak?

She wasn't in Ragnarok because Jaimie Alexander had a schedule conflict IIRC and thus probably wasn't killed in Ragnarok. She's going to be in the next Thor movie apparently. 

[johntfs]

18 minutes ago, arc said:

Wow. So Ravanna (probably) isn't the "man behind the curtain", since she used to be an analyst. But she's a bigger true believer than Mobius or B-15 -- or she actually knows more about the truth of the TVA than they did. Enough to know that C-20 was speaking the truth. But I was right that all the pomp about the Time-Keepers was propping up a myth! Whoever it is didn't want to just come out from backstage after the animatronic got decapitated though.

I did feel cheated that we didn't get to see B-15's past life memory.

Ever since Sylvie said the TVA staff are all variants, I've suspected the "pruning" we see didn't kill variants, and I was doubly sure of that after Mobius and esp Loki got pruned. Feige & co didn't go to all that trouble to bring Loki back again in Endgame just to kill him off in the fourth episode of a six episode series.

I really ship Loki and Sylvie now. What a narcissist's dream though, to love yourself.

 

One thing I will say is that whatever very general origin (frost giant baby found/rescued by Odin) they share, Loki and Sylvie are very different people who have been shaped by very different life experiences.  The will be true of the other Lokis we saw at the very end.

The TVA is completely staffed by Variants - people pulled from the Sacred Timeline after they created a Nexus Event and then conditioned brain-washed to serve the TVA in whatever capacity.  Mobius is clearly a good analyst, so why delete/kill him when you can just "prune" him and send him back to get another "wash cycle?"  Hell, because Mobius is a good analyst this probably isn't the first time he's learned or been told the TVA's dirty little secret.  Maybe all those drink rings on Ravonna's table are from when Mobius has been pruned before and came back just slightly different?

What's going on with the Lokis seems kind of stranger, though.  Based on that bit at the end, wherever they're sent seems to be dangerous/fatal.  I wonder if there's some weird bit where TVA agents can't/won't directly kill someone - even a Loki.  They can't even send them somewhere that they're certain to die (Lamentis-1 two seconds before the collision).  But maybe they can send them someplace where someone/something else will eventually kill them.  Figure we'll learn about it next Wed.

Edited June 30, 2021 by johntfs

[Bill1978]

46 minutes ago, arc said:

The Black guy in the mid-credits scene seems to be holding a variant Mjolnir.

The Wikipedia page for the show identifies him as Boastful Loki. As a non comic book reader that means nothing to me. The other Lokis are identified as Classic Loki and Kid Loki (Yay!)

[Ailianna]

Aren't all Lokis boastful?

This was very good and I spent the whole episode not sure where they were going with things. I did wish B-15 and Mobius had enough faith or courage or something to trust each other and work together. But I can see why both felt they had to work alone. If they had worked together, could they have stopped themselves from being so easily caught?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Okay, so. Ravonna's in on it, whatever 'it' is. It struck me that she might have been lying to Mobius about Hunter C-20 dying, because the footage he was watching was cut off after she said the stuff about variants. Did she get pruned too, put back in the wash cycle? Poor kid.

Lady Sif! Apparently that's something that really happened, since Loki said he had a hot bath afterwards and never thought about it again. Or, y'know, he did, since that's the memory loop they chose for him. I have to admit, I'm impressed with his growth here. He's finally acknowledging that he's the author of many of his problems, and even if he's so narcissistic that he's falling in love with himself, he's clearly trying to be someone different. Even someone good. Kinda.

Where did Hunter B-15 go? Was she killed during the fight? I thought she just got knocked out or something, but she didn't seem to be there after Ravonna pruned Loki to....wherever. If she knows about Wherever, she's not expecting to see him again. Gonna be in for a surprise, then.

Really curious to find out about Sylvie's nexus event. If she was just a little kid when the TVA first found her, how is she an adult now and Ravonna hasn't aged? Because I don't *think* Ravonna is a variant. Even if the Time Keepers were fake, she's not behind it all, though she was clearly not telling the truth when she said she didn't remember what was such a big deal that the TVA was after a child.

[Spartan Girl]

Holy shit!!!!

Thank God I waited for after the credits! I knew they wouldn’t leave us hanging there without an extra scene!

Please let Mobius have survived. 🙏🏻 

See, FATWS writers, THAT is how you do a sympathetic villain and a heroine that is actually a bad guy! Take some fucking notes!

Sif!!!!! So great to see her again! Although if Mobius really wanted to break Loki, he should have trapped him in a time loop of getting his ass kicked by the Hulk.

Yeah it says volumes of how much of a narcissist Loki is that he has feelings for an alternate version of himself.

Can we just skip to next Wednesday already?!

[tv echo]

Big episode...

So Sylvie was a variant who got away from Ravonna years ago, when Sylvie was a child and Ravonna was a Hunter. However, I found it difficult to believe that Child Sylvie could get away. It seemed like they all just stood there for a solid minute before Child Sylvie used the stolen TemPad to open a Time Door and escape through it.

Touching scene while waiting for Lamentis-1 to explode. Sylvie asked if what makes a Loki a Loki is that they "always lose." Loki disagreed and said that what makes a Loki a Loki is that they "survive." Then they're rescued/captured by the TVA.

Wow - a cameo by Jaimie Alexander as Lady Sif! (By the way, she was missing from and not even mentioned in Thor: Ragnorak. Will they ever explain that? Did she become a variant?) Loki confessed that he craves attention because he's a complete narcissist and he doesn't want to be alone.

Well-acted scene between Loki and Mobius, where they both feel betrayed. So Loki lied (I assume) to Mobius about meeting Sylvie as a child and hatching this plan together. Loki then told Mobius that the TVA workers are all variants with erased memories.

Sylvie showed Hunter B-15 a memory from her prior life. Mobius sneaked a look at Hunter C-20's interview on Ravonna's TemPad where she said that she saw her past memories and found out that she's a variant. Both Hunter B-15 and Mobius are on the Lokis' side now.

• Whoa - Ravonna pruned Mobius! But I don't think he's dead. 
• Double whoa - Loki and Sylvie were taken to the Time Keepers, who ordered them deleted. But Hunter B-15 tried to rescue them. 
• Triple whoa - the Time Keepers are not real. They're "mindless androids"!
• Quadruple whoa - just before Loki is about to confess something to Sylvie, Ravonna pruned Loki and he disappeared!

Mobius' comments about Loki falling for himself ("What an incredible seismic narcissist!") appear to be true. Also, Loki's creator and director confirmed Loki's falling in love with Sylvie in a Marvel interview.

Mid-credits scene! Loki woke up in a ruined city and wondered aloud if he's dead and in Hel. Someone replied, "Not yet. But you will be, unless you come with us." Loki then looked up to see more Loki variants. According to the end credits (full cast credits following guest starring credits, and also apparently in the German cast credits), they're Classic Loki (Richard E. Grant), Kid Loki (Jack Veal), who's carrying a crocodile wearing a Loki crown (another Loki?), and Boastful Loki (DeObia Oparei), who's carrying a hammer.

So is the TVA (or whoever's behind the TVA) seeking out and putting all Loki variants in this place, because they're destined to destroy the TVA?

We still don't know what Nexus Event led to Child Sylvie being deemed a variant.  We also don't know who created the TVA. Could it be Miss Minutes? 😉

FYI: Marvel's "Episode 4 Event Report" has been published.

Edited July 1, 2021 by tv echo

[IWantCandy71]

I still don't have tons of sympathy for Sylvie, nor do I think she's good for Loki. She's the worst parts of himself.

I mean, she burned people alive. And the worst part ? She apparently didn't have to, for things to unravel. If the show wants to put them together, fine, do it. But if Loki calls her amazing again, I'm gonna scream. Loki hon, you can do way better.

The best parts of this show remain the Mobius/Loki interactions.

"Grow up"

"No, you grow up". I was grinning the whole time.

I guess both Mobius and Loki are alive, but what kind of big bad doesn't kill you outright ? That's just asking for trouble.

[Ailianna]

If Renslayer knows the Time Keepers are fakes, why the visit to them at the beginning of the episode? And if she doesn't know, why no shock or outrage or any emotion at all when one is beheaded and revealed as a machine? I can't quite make those two scenes fit, but for obvious reasons didn't see the disconnect until I watched again.

What? I have a life! I definitely didn't skip the morning workout to watch Loki twice.....

Edited June 30, 2021 by Ailianna

[Cobalt Stargazer]

21 minutes ago, IWantCandy71 said:

I mean, she burned people alive. And the worst part ? She apparently didn't have to, for things to unravel. If the show wants to put them together, fine, do it. But if Loki calls her amazing again, I'm gonna scream. Loki hon, you can do way better.

Well. Let's not get carried away.

Yes, Loki is changing in tiny, painful increments. You can tell he wants to do better or be better. But he's not a hero and he's not a nice guy. If I had never seen him before this, the memory loop he was in with Sif was pretty indicative of someone who just naturally does things to annoy people because he can. He cut off her hair because he thought it would be funny, and while he clearly did think about what happened later, he didn't learn anything from it. When I said he's the author of most of his problems, he also perpetuates them. Maybe Sylvie is the worst parts of him, but for all we know that's what pulling him towards her.

[Peace 47]

I meant to ask regarding the somewhat “screechy” arrangement (which closed captioning tells me is a “theremin” instrument) of Camille Saint-Saens’ “The Swan” that plays in Renslayer’s office:  I wonder what they are trying to convey with that?  Maybe it’s nothing more than just to convey a calm, staid office environment for Renslayer, but I just wondered if there was any musical symbolism in that particular choice.

I also wonder how she worked her way up from being a hunter to where she is now: in the flashback, she was appearing before another judge.  What happened to that guy?  I wonder where she came from that she doesn’t seem like she has a life to miss (unlike C-20, B-15 and Mobius).  (That is, with knowledge, people seem to prefer their old lives to this one.)  I keep in mind what Loki said in a prior episode about how no one good is truly good and no one bad is truly bad.  I wonder if there is some redemption for Renslayer possible.  Most of the main characters are murderers, so I wouldn’t be shocked if she could be turned somehow.

27 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Mobius' comments about Loki falling for himself ("What an incredible seismic narcissist!") appear to be true. Also, Loki's creator and director confirmed Loki's falling in love with Sylvie in a Marvel interview.

Ew.  I was hoping against hope that this is not what was happening, that there was some other explanation.  I guess I must hate myself or something, because if I met a version of myself from another reality, I can’t imagine being romantically attracted to me!  So does that mean that “true love’s first kiss” breaks the sacred timeline (since they were redlining on Lamentis-1?  Haha.  If that’s true, I think Billy Joel’s “For the Longest Time” would have been a better choice of end credits song. 

[paigow]

Sif seemed to be learning and adapting each iteration of the loop, but never seemed surprised or concerned that she was temporally trapped....

[tv echo]

20 minutes ago, Peace 47 said:

I also wonder how she worked her way up from being a hunter to where she is now: in the flashback, she was appearing before another judge.  What happened to that guy?  I wonder where she came from that she doesn’t seem like she has a life to miss (unlike C-20, B-15 and Mobius).  (That is, with knowledge, people seem to prefer their old lives to this one.)  I keep in mind what Loki said in a prior episode about how no one good is truly good and no one bad is truly bad.  I wonder if there is some redemption for Renslayer possible.  Most of the main characters are murderers, so I wouldn’t be shocked if she could be turned somehow.

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

In another Marvel interview, Gugu Mbatha-Raw (who plays Ravonna Renslayer) said that Ravonna started as a Hunter and "worked her way up to the top." She also said that Ravonna's "career is her life," adding: “She's really worked hard to get where she is, so she's not going to be reckless with the power that has been hard-earned for her... She, in some ways, is deeply indoctrinated with the ways of the TVA. She's completely conditioned by their thinking and the idea of the Sacred Timeline, and the concept of free will is quite alien to her. She's a believer. She believes in law and order, and it's done quite well for her so far in terms of getting her to where she is. She's not going to abandon her philosophy lightly.” She also said that Ravonna's only friend is Mobius.
 

Edited June 30, 2021 by tv echo

[Featherhat]

7 minutes ago, Peace 47 said:

I also wonder how she worked her way up from being a hunter to where she is now: in the flashback, she was appearing before another judge.  What happened to that guy?  I wonder where she came from that she doesn’t seem like she has a life to miss (unlike C-20, B-15 and Mobius).  (That is, with knowledge, people seem to prefer their old lives to this one.)  I keep in mind what Loki said in a prior episode about how no one good is truly good and no one bad is truly bad.  I wonder if there is some redemption for Renslayer possible.  Most of the main characters are murderers, so I wouldn’t be shocked if she could be turned somehow.

Ew.  I was hoping against hope that this is not what was happening, that there was some other explanation.  I guess I must hate myself or something, because if I met a version of myself from another reality, I can’t imagine being romantically attracted to me!  So does that mean that “true love’s first kiss” breaks the sacred timeline (since they were redlining on Lamentis-1?  Haha.  If that’s true, I think Billy Joel’s “For the Longest Time” would have been a better choice of end credits song. 

It will be interesting to hear her explanation next ep. Since she has worked her way up she clearly isn't the one ultimately in charge (I'd say that was going to be another Loki but the TVA clearly isn't his/her style) and might not even have known the Time-Keepers were fakes. She was the only one we've seen interacting with them early in the ep where there was no need for a visit if she was aware they were fake. 

I think she'll probably come out of this heavily morally grey like almost everyone else but not completely evil. More like a true believer and the ends justify the means to keep the sacred timeline safe if anything. 

I really hope Loki/Sylvie isn't happening but I assumed it was once Loki was cut off in his big confession. It does seem to be popular in a certain type of time travel/alternate universe fiction but not as the main romance - e.g Henry as a teen in the Time Travellers' Wife "before I worked up the courage to talk to girls". 

Maybe they're going with the fact that they're so different and/or branched off so long ago/nexus event it's just like dating someone who really gets you but isn't actually "you". 

[paigow]

Since Loki is definitively bi... he landed in Grindr Valhalla because he is compatible with every dude there... hopefully, he is not a pedo... 

Even if the TVA loves Dot Matrix Printers so much that biometrically locked Tempads would not be used... PASSWORD protection would prevent variants escaping custody so easily...

[AimingforYoko]

Well, we've got more Lokis than you can shake a stick at. I have to admit, if anyone was going to get pruned, I was sure it was Sylvie. Glad she's still around. 

I hope we get to meet the real Mobius before the end of the series. Hopefully on a Jet-Ski.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Well. Let's not get carried away.

Yes, Loki is changing in tiny, painful increments. You can tell he wants to do better or be better. But he's not a hero and he's not a nice guy. If I had never seen him before this, the memory loop he was in with Sif was pretty indicative of someone who just naturally does things to annoy people because he can. He cut off her hair because he thought it would be funny, and while he clearly did think about what happened later, he didn't learn anything from it. When I said he's the author of most of his problems, he also perpetuates them. Maybe Sylvie is the worst parts of him, but for all we know that's what pulling him towards her.

All this. Plus, Loki’s narcissism is fueled by a big old victim complex, so it’s natural he’d be drawn to Sylvie, who has arguably had it harder than him. Sylvie was basically torn away as a child from the family Loki took for granted (and tried to destroy). Not that it excuses what she did to the brainwashed TVA variant soldiers, but still.

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Sif seemed to be learning and adapting each iteration of the loop, but never seemed surprised or concerned that she was temporally trapped....

Well, she probably just assumed Loki’s explanations were his usual bullshit lol.

[Wynterwolf]

8 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

I hope we get to meet the real Mobius before the end of the series.

The idea of this distinction is a fascinating thing for me, because the TVA is the only one who differentiates between a 'real' (aka a "sacred timeline") version, and a "variant" version. They are all real Mobiuses (Mobiui?) just each with different experiences/knowledge/memories.  

Edited June 30, 2021 by Wynterwolf
What *is* the plural of Mobius???

[VCRTracking]

[dwmarch]

Interesting to note that when Sylvie has an opportunity to attack what she thinks is a god, what does she do? She goes for the head.

[Vikitty]

HOLY SHIT HOLY SHIT HOLY SHIIIIIIIIIIIT.

MOBIUS! NOOOOO!!!

also Loki was going to kiss Sylvie wasn't he. WASN'T HE.

[nilyank]

Is Boastful Loki called boastful because he was able to worthy of holding Thor's hammer?

Can't wait next week for all the Lokis. Maybe that's why the opening credits have so many different fonts for the Loki title.

[Wynterwolf]

My brain is exploding. 

[paigow]

If this is some kind of Oz dimension, maybe we will see Adebisi Loki, Schillinger Loki and Alvarez Loki 

[calliope1975]

I'm down with Loki/Sylvie, but I'd really like her to be like, uhh, I'm good. Not interested.

Loki needs to love himself before he can love others./therapy

When those Chuck E Cheese looking muppets showed up, that confirmed there's a wizard behind the curtain. I don't think it's Gugu. Miss Minutes? Never trust an animated clock.

[Wynterwolf]

22 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Loki needs to love himself before he can love others./therapy

In a way, that's exactly what he's doing (what they're both doing). They are developing a trust and an emotional bond between them, but the text hasn't taken it any farther than that. So there is the *potential* for it to be more, sure. But it could also just be emotional intimacy, but nothing sexual or romantic. I think it's only our heterosexual biases that's creating an assumption that it's more.  And I think that's what Mobius' issue was, and also... I think Mobius was jealous. Because there was some emotional intimacy sparkage between Loki and Mobius as well.

[arc]

4 hours ago, Ailianna said:

If Renslayer knows the Time Keepers are fakes, why the visit to them at the beginning of the episode? And if she doesn't know, why no shock or outrage or any emotion at all when one is beheaded and revealed as a machine? I can't quite make those two scenes fit, but for obvious reasons didn't see the disconnect until I watched again.

Nothing was shown about the first visit besides a quick shot of the three Time Keepers’ glowing eyes, if I remember right. So maybe after the elevator door closed, she kept walking to the little hidden door at the base of the Time Keepers’ wall (or whatever) and met with the big boss there.

4 hours ago, Featherhat said:

she clearly isn't the one ultimately in charge (I'd say that was going to be another Loki but the TVA clearly isn't his/her style)

well, maybe a variant Loki is the big boss. That might explain why the Lamentis-1 connection between Loki and Sylvie created such an alarming nexus event.

 

[VCRTracking]

4 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I meant to ask regarding the somewhat “screechy” arrangement (which closed captioning tells me is a “theremin” instrument) of Camille Saint-Saens’ “The Swan” that plays in Renslayer’s office:  I wonder what they are trying to convey with that?  Maybe it’s nothing more than just to convey a calm, staid office environment for Renslayer, but I just wondered if there was any musical symbolism in that particular choice.

I also wonder how she worked her way up from being a hunter to where she is now: in the flashback, she was appearing before another judge.  What happened to that guy?  I wonder where she came from that she doesn’t seem like she has a life to miss (unlike C-20, B-15 and Mobius).  (That is, with knowledge, people seem to prefer their old lives to this one.)  I keep in mind what Loki said in a prior episode about how no one good is truly good and no one bad is truly bad.  I wonder if there is some redemption for Renslayer possible.  Most of the main characters are murderers, so I wouldn’t be shocked if she could be turned somehow.

Ew.  I was hoping against hope that this is not what was happening, that there was some other explanation.  I guess I must hate myself or something, because if I met a version of myself from another reality, I can’t imagine being romantically attracted to me!  So does that mean that “true love’s first kiss” breaks the sacred timeline (since they were redlining on Lamentis-1?  Haha.  If that’s true, I think Billy Joel’s “For the Longest Time” would have been a better choice of end credits song. 

It's like on SEINFELD when Jerry met a woman with his personality played by Janeane Garafalo and got engaged. Then they broke it off because he realized he can't stand himself. Loki though loves himself! Sylvie though besides being female has had completely different life experience. She didn't get to grow up both being arrogant as an Asgardian royal while also resentful of being second to Thor.  If Sylvie was exactly like Loki with all that he wouldn't like her.

It was only online that I found out old Loki at the end was Richard E. Grant! They had him wear the comic book costume and everything!

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by VCRTracking

[Cobalt Stargazer]

9 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

In a way, that's exactly what he's doing (what they're both doing). They are developing a trust and an emotional bond between them, but the text hasn't taken it any farther than that. So there is the *potential* for it to be more, sure. But it could also just be emotional intimacy, but nothing sexual or romantic. I think it's only our heterosexual biases that's creating an assumption that it's more.  And I think that's what Mobius' issue was, and also... I think Mobius was jealous. Because there was some emotional intimacy sparkage between Loki and Mobius as well.

Perhaps, and yet Mobius is the one who has repeatedly noted Loki's fondness for betrayal and stabbing people in the back. It could even be argued that any emotional intimacy between Loki and Mobius is no healthier than the intimacy between Loki and Sylvie. Mobius, as "aw shucks" as he is, is only nicer than Ravonna in the sense that prior to this episode he had no idea he is also a variant. He was dutifully if not happily doing the TVA's good work, and if he really hasn't been pruned for good, who will he be when he comes back? Ravonna looked genuinely hurt/upset when he was tased into oblivion, but she might just have sent him to be re-educated.

[ProudMary]

Mid-credits scene: I realize he's credited as Boastful Loki, but as he's the only one of the four without Loki horns, couldn't that character actually be a variant Thor?

Also, while we don't know when that scene is, it certainly looks as if Loki has landed in Central Park as that's definitely a destroyed Stark/Avengers Tower in the background to the right.

I need it to be next Wednesday now!!!

[Llywela]

7 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Really curious to find out about Sylvie's nexus event. If she was just a little kid when the TVA first found her, how is she an adult now and Ravonna hasn't aged? 

Same reason C-20 looks like a young woman but has hundreds of years of TVA memories. Time works differently in the TVA. It kinda reminds me of Terry Pratchett's history monks and the way they can manipulate time, living entire lifetimes inside a single frozen moment that exists in perpetuity.

If there is just the one sacred timeline and all variations from it are picked up immediately, I'm curious to know how the two adult alternate Lokis from the mid-credit scene made it as far as they did before being picked up as variants - assuming they have been, of course. Then again, Sylvie's experience shows that a certain degree of drift must be tolerated before action is taken - simply being born female instead of male wasn't enough of a variation to cause a nexus event, she made it a good few years into her childhood before her life deviated from that dictated by the sacred timeline enough to register as a variant. Which means there must, in fact, be loads of alternate timelines out there, which are close enough to the sacred timeline not to register, at least for a while. I wonder just how long an alternate timeline can run parallel before it triggers an alert?

Edited June 30, 2021 by Llywela

[IWantCandy71]

5 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Well. Let's not get carried away.

Yes, Loki is changing in tiny, painful increments. You can tell he wants to do better or be better. But he's not a hero and he's not a nice guy. If I had never seen him before this, the memory loop he was in with Sif was pretty indicative of someone who just naturally does things to annoy people because he can. He cut off her hair because he thought it would be funny, and while he clearly did think about what happened later, he didn't learn anything from it. When I said he's the author of most of his problems, he also perpetuates them. Maybe Sylvie is the worst parts of him, but for all we know that's what pulling him towards her.

Oh, I know. I recently rewatched Thor to Marvel (pun intended) at the growth, however miniscule, Loki has shown. He was awful in the past. But I think the Sif comparison is not the best one to make, because he just cut her hair.

As opposed to Sylvie, who was killing folks willy nilly.

Even if I could say they are about the same right now from a maturity standpoint, that's all the more reason they should just be friends. I think the little bit we've seen shows us they would be one of those "burn the world down" couples. I like to think now that Loki has an actual friend,  (best moment ever), he wouldn't want to burn down a world that has his only friend In it.

Owen Wilson, like him or not, is one of the best at making his characters "soft". Which makes that bond all the more special IMO. Loki had tears in his eyes over a mortal !

Growth, thy name is Loki.

 

 

 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, IWantCandy71 said:

As opposed to Sylvie, who was killing folks willy nilly.

Bruce Banner: "That guy's brain is a bag full of cats. You can smell the crazy on him."

Thor: "Have care how you speak! Loki is beyond reason, but he is of Asgard. And he is my brother."

Natasha Romanoff: "He killed eighty people in two days."

Thor: "...He's adopted."

As charming as Loki is, he's not at all removed from the individual who attacked New York with an alien army. Cutting Sif's hair *is* mild, but he's still about on a par with Sylvie as far as just doing bad shit for his own reasons. Mobius told him that the TVA was in charge of everything, that his purpose was to lift other people up through defeating him. Well, it turns out Mobius didn't even know *he* was a variant as well, so that explanation no longer holds water, IMO. So we're kinda just back to Loki mostly being a dick, and sometimes a murderous dick. The teeny, tiny bits of growth here are a start, but a very slow start. That's all I was saying.

[VCRTracking]

26 minutes ago, IWantCandy71 said:

As opposed to Sylvie, who was killing folks willy nilly.

Even that had a purpose. She wanted to get the TVA's attention so they would prioritize hunting her down so she could get those devices and distract them all so she could get to the Timekeepers.  

I'm glad Mobius might still be alive but I was looking forward to posting a gif of Tom Hanks in Castaway yelling "WIIIIILSONNN!!!"

Edited June 30, 2021 by VCRTracking

[IWantCandy71]

7 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Bruce Banner: "That guy's brain is a bag full of cats. You can smell the crazy on him."

Thor: "Have care how you speak! Loki is beyond reason, but he is of Asgard. And he is my brother."

Natasha Romanoff: "He killed eighty people in two days."

Thor: "...He's adopted."

As charming as Loki is, he's not at all removed from the individual who attacked New York with an alien army. Cutting Sif's hair *is* mild, but he's still about on a par with Sylvie as far as just doing bad shit for his own reasons. Mobius told him that the TVA was in charge of everything, that his purpose was to lift other people up through defeating him. Well, it turns out Mobius didn't even know *he* was a variant as well, so that explanation no longer holds water, IMO. So we're kinda just back to Loki mostly being a dick, and sometimes a murderous dick. The teeny, tiny bits of growth here are a start, but a very slow start. That's all I was saying.

But again,  all the more reason Sylvie and Loki don't need to couple up.

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Even that had a purpose. She wanted to get the TVA's attention so they would keep prioritize hunting her down so she could get those devices and distract them all so she could get to the Timekeepers.  

I'm glad Mobius might still be alive but I was looking forward to posting a gif of Tom Hanks in Castaway yelling "WIIIIILSONNN!!!"

But all the murders got her nowhere.

All she had to do was kidnap one and get them to reveal where the timekeepers were. And she let that one live.

We also see her have no care over whether or not the civilians at Roxxcart whose bodies she used, lived or died.

And even if some of the killiing was necessary, lighting people on fire is a brutal way to do it.

[tennisgurl]

I love how the show pointed out the extremely obvious narcissism in developing feelings for an alternate universe version of yourself, yeah if anyone is going to fall in love with an alternate version of themselves, it would be Loki. I don't know if they are going to go there with Loki and Sylvie actually being romantically involved, or just being really close, but of course the person that Loki can most easily connect with is himself. And more so, its a version of Loki that really has been hounded and persecuted the way that Loki always imagines that he has been. Not only is Loki an attention seeking narcissist, he also has a massive victim complex, where he is always looking for slights against him that can justify him feeling like a tragic victim of fate and his family because it means he gets even more attention and always has a pre-packed excuse for why he does the things he does. 

I am surprised that things are moving so quickly, but when you are making a show that wants to feel for cinematic, there is little time for dilly dallying. I wasn't expecting Loki and Sylvie to start telling the TVA agents the truth so quickly, but we are getting some answers already...just that they are just leading to even more questions. So if the Time Keepers are robots, what does that even mean? Did they never actually exist, or are they just elsewhere and the robots are just decoys? If so, where are they? If they never existed, who or what is actually in charge of the TVA? 

It was fun seeing Lady Sif for the first time in quite awhile, even if it was just in a memory based time loop. Like a lot of things dealing with Loki getting taken down several pegs, its both funny and sad. Its funny to watch him getting some karma for his hijinks, but it is also sad how its symptomatic of his bigger issues. He tries to get attention and the affirmation of his own self worth, but instead he usually just ends up pushing people away and pissing them off, all out of his need to be loved and accepted. A big part of his tragedy is that he so badly wanted love and respect, and did horrible things to try and attain them until he realized that he had them all along, but it was too late by then. Loki cutting Sif's hair is also straight out of Norse mythology, so that was cool to see.  

Mobius finally realizing that what Loki was saying about the TVA agents being kidnapped and brainwashed Variants was also not something I expected so quickly, but him investigating everything was really good, and I admit that I gasped when he was pruned. The poor guy, the only memory he had left was one that he isn't even sure is his own, he just wanted to go back to his actual life in his last seconds, whatever that was. I am guessing that he will be fine, maybe he was actually just sent somewhere else the way Loki was, or at least I hope he will be fine. The show would lose a lot without his and Loki's double act, especially now that he knows his memories are faked. He has been so calm and blasé about everything, it really was striking at how freaked out he was as he realized what was actually going on, Owen Wilson continues to be perfect in this role. Even Loki was clearly upset by him being supposedly pruned, as much as Loki has pushed against him at every turn I do think that he did actually come to like the guy. I was also quite moved by B-15 seeing her old memories, I am really interested in what will happen with her. 

So it looks like Renslayer actually knows the truth already and is in on it with the Time Keepers, or whoever is actually in charge. I don't think that she is the actual person behind everything, but she definitely knows more than the other TVA agents and is willing to kill (or something) to keep the truth about the agents a secret. She was even willing to prune Morphias, who she really does seem close with, and while she obviously felt bad about it, she did still do it. 

So now Loki has been sent to join the Council of Loki's! Including an alligator Loki? Hopefully Loki isn't in Hell, the last time he met up with his sister, things didn't go great. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by tennisgurl

[Zonk]

11 hours ago, tkc said:

What was Loki going to say to Sylvie?

I think that he loved her. But probably not without any ulterior motive. He understood that them actually loving one another or even just somebody (remember last episode they talked about how they never had anything real, ralationship wise), could break the sacred timeline in an instance and that would have either freed them or at least provoked a reaction by the real time keepers.

Where do I get all this from? That look of realisation right before he turned back around and continued talking to Sylvie. You guys, I think Tom Hiddleston might be a good actor. ;D

11 hours ago, tkc said:

Where did Mobius go?

I guess to Mobius-Variant-world.

11 hours ago, tkc said:

Who is pulling the strings?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

10 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I half wondered if, after her detente with Sylvie in front of Roxxcart where she asked what was next, B-15 was able to replace the pruning sticks that took out both Loki and Mobius with something else (that sent them somewhere else).  Like, normally the pruning sticks do disintegrate you, but here, they transported you elsewhere.  It would make sense that Sylvie and B-15 would have hatched a better plan than just having B-15 release the restraint collars at the very end.  And Loki didn’t know that (hence why he looked devastated when Mobius disintegrated).

Doesn't seem likely since the other Loki variants were there, too. They must have been pruned by the TVA and sent there, just like our Loki variant. So that seems to be the normal function of the sticks.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Zonk