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S01.E03: Lamentis

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20 minutes ago, silverstream said:

But didn't Sylvie say she had to sift through hundreds of years of memories? So the agent must have been alive/conscious for all of that time, not just displaced. And sending your underlings into situations where inexplicably (for them) , their colleague will disintegrate if they take off their helmet/armour/etc. doesn't seem very ideal.

I might be misunderstanding again, but even if the agent was conscious for all the time she's been at the TVA, that's not the same thing as remembering who she actually is. Because she doesn't. The reason Sylvie really had to dig around to find a memory she could use is because Hunter C-20 has no idea that she has a "real" name and a whole other life that she was taken away from however long ago.  Hell, she doesn't even know she's a copy of another person, as Loki said about Sylvie.

And the thing about the armor was just spitballing, although if some of the agents really are over a century old it seems like some kind of magical protection (I guess) would be in order to keep them from going to pieces - literally. As far as we can tell, they're non-enhanced humans, and yet.

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I really liked the change of pacing in this episode. I did miss Mobius a bit but honestly Loki and Sylvie had so much chemistry I really didn't notice the lack of TVA. I agree it had major Doctor Who vibes.

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4 hours ago, magdalene said:

Yes, I did keep wondering whether he bamboozled her with the timey-whimy thingie to draw her out and find out as much as possible while she believes they are doomed - and then voila! at the last minute pulls them off Lamentis.  Because they are certainly not going to die on Lamentis and unless some contrived deux ex machina shows up....

I spent the whole episode thinking Loki was playing Sylvie and. I think he has the timetrap hidden and, the broken one was a duplicate. It seems like most of the episode was Loki trying to get information out of Sylvie. If he wasn't playing it up the whole episode then he kinda comes off as a buffoon.

Edited by Morrigan2575
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On 6/23/2021 at 5:34 PM, arc said:

He magically levitated a falling building!!!! (Side note, the best part about that was how he paused, as if admiring his own work.) Still, if he’s that powerful, fighting guards one by one with daggers is absurdly silly when he could probably have just grabbed a boulder or something and steamrolled a clear path to the ark.

Completely agree. After his initial surprise, he should have easily won the fights in Roxxcart .

The fights with Sylvie are different, because he doesn't want to hurt her. She's like the sister he never knew he had.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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4 hours ago, arc said:

I can’t imagine why. Not only would that put an even bigger target on his back with the TVA, but also we just saw him last episode not giving a shit about the fate of the Pompeiians. 

He magically levitated a falling building!!!! (Side note, the best part about that was how he paused, as if admiring his own work.) Still, if he’s that powerful, fighting guards one by one with daggers is absurdly silly when he could probably have just grabbed a boulder or something and steamrolled a clear path to the ark.

Well, there really wasn't anything he could do about Mt. Vesuvius - especially with Mobius right there.  Plus he was caught up in the excitement of proving his theory.  In this episode Loki had made a few small connections with the Lamentians.  The old woman.  The people on the train.  Also, the Ark something that he and Sylvie could possibly fix/save, unlike a huge erupting volcano.

And maybe he thought that he could leverage his relationship with Mobius to figure out something that removed them from the Sacred Timeline (or that part of it) and put them somewhere... less explody.

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10 hours ago, arc said:

Maybe they are as reluctant to face existential threats as real earth humans of the 21st century are? It would also explain how the citizens let the government build one ark that would manifestly be too small for the population.

This. I am a lot more inclined these days to believe in a population basically wasting its time arguing and deceiving and profiteering until it is too late, now that I have spent a year and a half experiencing how the world has reacted to a global pandemic. If misinformation is rife and the power to actually create an escape route rests in the hands of a minority, who argue among themselves and put their own interests above those of the many...yeah, I can see how Lamentis would have come to this.

9 hours ago, futurechemist said:

But yeah, the moon and planet colliding isn't really a sudden turn of events.  So why would you wait until the last minute to send the arc? Unless this is meant to be close to our present level of technology and they literally had to start building the arc from scratch when some calamity sent the moon and planet towards each other.

Probably an element of this too.

Edited by Llywela
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2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

If he wasn't playing it up the whole episode then he kinda comes off as a buffoon.

As much as I loved the drunken scenes, I see what you mean.  One of Loki's characteristics is that he's always thinking ahead (like he told Mobius that he's always "10 steps ahead of you") which makes it hard to get the jump on him.  After he and Sylvie got on the ship, it's like Loki just said screw it and did whatever.  I couldn't understand why Loki wasn't interrogating Sylvie more, and I really couldn't believe that Loki would just get drunk and potentially botch the mission.  He finally had the Variant and she couldn't escape without the TemPad from Loki.  Why would he let himself get compromised the way he did?  Loki is definitely self centered and hedonistic, but not stupid. 

Despite that, I enjoyed this episode, although it's probably the weakest of the 3 so far.  I had my doubts about Sylvie, but she was a great foil.  Some of the stuff seemed more plot driven than logical, but Hiddleston and DeMartino have a great rapport.  You can see why Sylvie is another version of Loki, even if she's not actually a variant of him.  One thing I noticed was that neither of them had any concern for the doomed citizens of Lamentis, even if they knew those people were going to die.  Like the old woman in the shack.  Would Loki and Sylvie had cared if she'd had small children with her?  Or if her husband had been at her side?

Knowing that the employees of the TVA are actually variants, I feel sorry for them.  Sylvie said that Hunter she kidnapped had a lot of mental damage already, but I'm wondering if that was her "waking up" from the TVAs influence.  Hunter B-15 looked pretty shaken once she came out of the enchantment, too.  It could be years of suppressed memories that these people are experiencing.  

The character driven scenes are the best part of the show, IMO.  Loki talking about Frigga was touching, and you can tell Sylvie didn't have that.  Although I'm wondering if she was raised by the Frost Giants, or she meant that Frigga wasn't around much or had died.  

None of the Lamentis citizens noticed Loki doing the glamour with the guard disguise from the Ark?  That helmet looked like it belonged in a sex den.

The last scene felt very disjointed and green screen-ish.  I'm thinking the pandemic had a part in the way that was filmed.  Although we finally got to see Loki using his magical powers, which should have been done long ago. 

Spoiler

I'm wondering if Sylvie's been enchanting Loki from the moment they left the power station on Lamentis.  It would explain why Loki acted so stupidly, as well as telling her more about his life while learning very little about Sylvie.

 

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11 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I spent the whole episode thinking Loki was playing Sylvie and. I think he has the timetrap hidden and, the broken one was a duplicate. It seems like most of the episode was Loki trying to get information out of Sylvie. If he wasn't playing it up the whole episode then he kinda comes off as a buffoon.

I did wonder that. But a Loki also spent his time "ruling" Asgard lounging around, being a lazy, greedy King who just watched obviously fake plays about himself letting the Nine Realms "fall into chaos" rather than trying to rule for any bigger plan. 

Edited by Featherhat
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The visuals on this show are so beautiful!  Lamentis and it's purple glow was a good change from the brown/earth tones of the TVA.  I got Blade Runner vibes during the last act for sure with the almost blacklight neon effect in the city space. 

In a show like this, I can forgive an episode where I'm not sure where it is driving the main plot, but think it will probably matter quite a bit later.  Certainly, the news about the TVA agents not being created specifically, but being brought in and brainwashed has implications.  I still don't know that I understand Sylvie's motivation or powers.  Is she is a Loki or something else entirely?  It's not like either of them are trustworthy narrators. I didn't mind Mobius being gone this episode, but would like him back the next. 

Loki and Sylvie fighting, arguing, and getting to know one another was the highlight of the episode for me.  Either they are bringing on super good foils for Hiddleston or he just has freaking chemistry with everyone (or some combination therein). The conversation on the train required me to watch it twice b/c there was so much happening.  I continue to love the layers Hiddleston gives Loki.  In a moment, you see him talk about Frigga in a way he hasn't ever talked about anyone, and it is so clear that the parts of him that want to do the right thing are motivated by her influence.  That's a lot to convey, and yet it was so rich and obvious culminating in that super cute fireworks trick.  Good conversation about their individual adoption stories too.  I LOVED the almost casual nature of revealing Loki's (and presumably, Sylvie's) sexuality more openly and honestly.  I love the story about this being the showrunner's truth and actively including Loki's bi/pan sexuality as an organic, yet deliberate, part of the show.  The actors played it so well too by not overplaying it.  I'm so happy that it is my boy Loki finally bringing needed representation into the MCU. 

I'm not sure what to do with Love is a Dagger.  Loki's dichotomy of "rascal" and "sensitive boi" is really compelling b/c I'm never sure who I'm going to get in a moment.  It was a clumsy metaphor, but at the same time speaks to Loki's experience that love hurts and ultimately might be nothing more than an illusion.  My immediate thought was "who hurt you, my lad?"  The chemistry between Loki/Sylvie was interesting, flirty at times...leave it to Loki to fall for another Loki (even if she isn't, it's amusing to me).  The small moment when the song got slower and softer about the girl who sings and comes home seemed very directed.  

I was trying to figure out if Loki was trying to play her or Sylvie was trying to play him.  She seemed to want to keep her faculties about her when Loki was getting wasted.  "I'm just full" was a LOL moment for me.  But, is Loki this silly during a situation like this?  Or, is it a game of his? Sylvie is particularly good b/c I keep overreading into what she says to Loki...does the "postman" matter to the story and is part of a bigger thing, or was it just a way to get him to share with her? They both seem calculating in terms of what they want to share and when they want to share it. 

An aside - Christ, Hiddleston is just all the things, isn't he?  Who looks that beautiful in that ugly TVA outfit (wearing it like it's Gucci) with that hair (flowing and curling) and singing songs in another language?!  The man can do anything, and wears clothes so very beautifully.  I have never stared at a man's legs in my life, but my focus kept getting pulled to "look at his long legs...goodness". LOL

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6 hours ago, Amethyst said:

One thing I noticed was that neither of them had any concern for the doomed citizens of Lamentis,

Absolutely true. There was a scene on the train where Loki pitches a guard through the window to certain death, and just laughs. We have to face the fact that despite all his charm, humour and moments of sentiment, Loki is pretty much a psychopathic narcissist. As a character, he's a joy to watch, and the main reason I watch this show but I wouldn't want to be his friend or relative. 

6 hours ago, Amethyst said:

The last scene felt very disjointed and green screen-ish.  I'm thinking the pandemic had a part in the way that was filmed

I was thinking more of financial constraints. 

4 hours ago, TrininisaScorp said:

The visuals on this show are so beautiful!  Lamentis and it's purple glow was a good change from the brown/earth tones of the TVA.  I got Blade Runner vibes during the last act for sure with the almost blacklight neon effect in the city space. 

I couldn't agree more. I wonder how much this show costs per episode to make? 

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5 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I did wonder that. But a Loki also spent his time "ruling" Asgard watching plays being a lazy, greedy King who just watched obviously fake plays about himself letting the Nine Realms "fall into chaos" rather than trying to rule for any bigger plan. 

He also didn’t anticipate Thor outsmarting his attempted betrayal in Ragnarok, and long before that, he also made huge mistake of pissing off the Hulk.

In short, Loki isn’t always as smart as he thinks he is. He’s also been off his game because his usual routine didn’t work with Mobius and the TVA, not to mention the reveal of how his life turned out in the regular timeline threw him for a loop. 

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11 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I spent the whole episode thinking Loki was playing Sylvie and. I think he has the timetrap hidden and, the broken one was a duplicate. It seems like most of the episode was Loki trying to get information out of Sylvie. If he wasn't playing it up the whole episode then he kinda comes off as a buffoon.

Yes, I feel like his goal was to get safely away from Lamentis without revealing he had a charged, working timepad (I think the broken one he showed her was an illusion, especially since he did the fireworks trick on the train). He wanted to be able to get off the planet some other way, but now that's not possible so if he does have it, he'll have to produce it and basically destroy all the work he just did building a rapport (not trust) with her, and revealing his deception and also his ace in the hole (the timepad).

I also do think he was shown to be moved by the plight of the inhabitants, but realistically (heh) there really isn't much he could do for them. I also think he's considered just leaving Sylvie there, but his feelings about her are also complicated and he simply doesn't want to. But I think part of the growth for this Loki is going to be figuring out how - and by what criteria - he wants to make choices now. Especially since he's realized that in the life he was shown that he lived, he was used like a puppet and all his choices where influenced and directed by an outside force.

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An illuminating episode...

I wonder - are all the Loki variants British? So if they introduce a new character who's an old guy or young child with a British accent, can we immediately suspect him of being a Loki variant?

Loki fighting Lady Loki over the TemPad was enjoyable to watch. They have similar fighting styles and matching stances.

Lamentis-1 in 2077 was another beautifully-styled and shot set. The production quality on this series is fantastic.

This could be Loki's motto: "Brute force is no substitute for diplomacy and guile."

I like that it took both Loki's skills and Lady Loki/Sylvie's skills to get them on board the train.

So not all Lokis have the same magic. Loki learned his magic from Freya (Freyja? Frigga? whatever), and Lady Loki/Sylvie taught herself enchantment magic. Loki remembering his adoptive mother was touching.

Wow - Tom Hiddleston can really sing!  

While they were on the planet, the TVA couldn't find them because they were hiding in an apocalypse. I really expected the two Lokis to save the Ark and the Ark's people (which was supposed to be destroyed with the planet) and get the Ark to lift off from Lamentis-1 successfully, thus drawing the attention of the TVA, because it would've created a Nexus Event. But this series managed to up-end my expectations by destroying the Ark, thus stranding Loki and Lady Loki/Sylvie on the doomed planet.

FYI: Marvel.com's "Episode 3 Event Report" has been published:
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/loki-episode-3-event-report-recap

Edited by tv echo
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I didn't watch WandaVision, but it occurs to me that the TVA are basically doing what I understand Wanda did to the town, just amped up to infinity and beyond and given an official/authoritative/'governmental' veneer (which a lot of people have a tendency to just accept without conscious thought). 

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3 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

But I think part of the growth for this Loki is going to be figuring out how - and by what criteria - he wants to make choices now. Especially since he's realized that in the life he was shown that he lived, he was used like a puppet and all his choices where influenced and directed by an outside force.

To some extent I agree with this. There have been flashes of an improved version of Loki here, if only because none of his usual repertoire of tricks have worked. His attempt to use his powers in the Time Court were comical because it should have worked, and all it got was a few amused snickers. He clearly feels regret over what happened to Frigga, and even if it's not exactly an acceptance of his culpability there, he must know that if he'd raised an alarm or at least not directed Algrim on what staircase to take, she'd probably still be alive.

Left to his own devices, though, he's really not the mastermind he believes himself to be. If Sylvie hadn't taken a nap on the train, would he have gotten soused and started a sing-a-long? She closes her eyes for twenty minutes and he hits the bar? No wonder she called him a clown. It's kind of hilarious that she's so exhausting to him, that he initially built a rapport so she'd stop trying to kill him every other minute. Yes, Loki, this is what it's like to have to deal with you. That's probably directing his shift now, in whatever small increments. He's looking at himself from the perspective of an outsider, and Sylvie doesn't have any of his surface charm, just the wish to destroy something for some hidden purpose.

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If Lady Loki is a true Loki variant and she hooks up with this Loki variant, do we get a Game Of Thrones Lannister situation? 

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Regarding the song that Loki sang on the train in this episode...

WHAT SONG DOES LOKI SING ON THE TRAIN? EPISODE 3’S SOUNDTRACK EXPLORED
Paul Fogarty  June 24, 2021
https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2021/06/24/what-song-does-loki-sing-episode-3-train-soundtrack-jeg-saler-min-ganger/ 

Quote

The song that Loki sings is revealed to be Jeg Saler Min Ganger in the episode’s end credits and was originally written by Norwegian folk musician Benedicte Maurseth and writer and lyricist Erlend Nødtvedt.

Tom Hiddleston’s version of Jeg Saler Min Ganger has not been officially released yet but the song has already made its way onto YouTube courtesy of the show’s fans. Hopefully, when the Loki soundtrack is released, we’ll have an official version.

The song’s title, which is in Norwegian rather than Asgardian, roughly translates to “I Saddle My Times,” possibly a reference to Loki and Sylvie forging their own path on the Sacred Timeline.

As for the song’s lyrics, also in Norwegian, one fan on Twitter has helpfully translated.

 

 

Edited by tv echo
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1 hour ago, paigow said:

If Lady Loki is a true Loki variant and she hooks up with this Loki variant, do we get a Game Of Thrones Lannister situation? 

No. Just NO. It's no secret I love Loki. And that's due to Tom Hiddleston. But I don't want to see any kind of romance with this character, because no. He's too much of a narcissistic, self-absorbed villain, who has moments of...love for his family. But no. uh-uh. Be it with a woman or a man. I don't care. I don't want it. Let me enjoy him as he is: SINGLE.

 

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Sorry for the obvious question: How is Sylvie also Loki (or a Loki)?

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17 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Both? Maybe? We still don't know if the TVA exists on the physical plane. If the TVA lady was taken from earth in the year 2000, she could have stopped aging altogether. Another possibility is that the Minutemen have some kind of technology in their armor to protect them from crumbling to dust in the earth's atmosphere. They're so far advanced that they use Infinity Stones as paperweights, and even if Ravonna doesn't care about variants, she might care a little about the 'soldiers' who are helping to protect the timeline. Because some of them have to have been to modern earth, since the Ren Faire in the last episode took place in 1985.

It's all so confusing !

Either way though, if the part about another variant taking their places when they stray from their timeline is true- then none of them CAN go back.

Not without creating more chaos.

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I think that either Loki faked the destruction of the TemPad, or maybe the entire sequence after Sylvie woke up on the train is an illusion he's projecting in her mind. But that would be quite the illusion. I also think he still has the time stone or tesseract, and can use that to get off the planet. He's just delaying things in order to spend more time with Sylvie in order to figure her out.

I loved Loki saying "You're so weird!" I get more of a brother/sister vibe from them then romantic vibes.

Absolutely hated the purple turtleneck sweater guard outfit. I'm glad he changed back into the TVA outfit. I personally don't mind it!

My bet on who Mobius was before is a high school teacher who was planning on splurging and buying a jetski.

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22 hours ago, swanpride said:

Honestly...didn't really work for me. The quibbling got old pretty fast, there was little meat in the actual conversation, I am actually by now kind of confused how there can be that many different Loki's when they are brought back on the "right path" 

Same. I hate to say it but i think this is the weakest of the MCU D+ shows. There’s a lot of talking, but not much being said, and I still don’t really get how this universe functions. Some of the twists and reveals were things I had already figured out (or suspected).  It’s super frustrating because there are glimpses of interesting ideas and Tom is truly enjoying himself.  I’ll keep watching tho as I really like the character Loki and Tom.
 

Regarding the episode: I agree with those who suspect the Drunk!Loki scene is an illusion. I think he’s enchanting Sylvie while she’s sleeping on the train. We saw how she projects illusions via enchantment at the beginning, she gave a detailed explanation of how they work, and we know Loki is a quick study. Lots of bricks laid waiting for a payoff.

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1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

He's too much of a narcissistic, self-absorbed villain, who has moments of...love for his family.

Wouldn't it be the ultimate narcissistic move to hook up with yourself?  The only person worthy of me is ... me.

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2 hours ago, tv echo said:

Regarding the song that Loki sang on the train in this episode...

So it WAS Norwegian! Thanks for the info. Lovely song. It also reminds me of certain Celtic dirges, also haunting and lovely. 

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Honestly though, when you name you planet "Lamentis" what do you expect? Its like building a plane and naming it the Icarus, or a boat called the Mergerentur, your really just asking for trouble. 

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1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Wouldn't it be the ultimate narcissistic move to hook up with yourself?  The only person worthy of me is ... me.

fast forward to 1:50

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On 6/23/2021 at 11:02 AM, Melina22 said:

One quibble. Why on earth were guards bothering to fight them on their way to the Ark? Were they hoping for extra pay for the 5 minutes before they died as the planet fell on them? I'm a little vague on their motivation. 

 

They probably had family who were allowed onboard, but only if they protected the Ark from the riff raff.

Edited by steelyis
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2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Wouldn't it be the ultimate narcissistic move to hook up with yourself?  The only person worthy of me is ... me.

I actually agree with this...although he'd still view any other Loki Variant as a lesser Loki.

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4 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Sorry for the obvious question: How is Sylvie also Loki (or a Loki)?

It’s not fully revealed yet, but the pieces laid out this episode say she diverged from the TVA’s canon very early in her childhood. So she’s from an alternate timeline, but while presumably the TVA reset/pruned that variant timeline, she herself has escaped the TVA over and over again. From last episode, variant Lokis take on dramatically different appearances, so it’s not much of a stretch to assume Sylvie adopted a different default shape from mainline Loki.

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4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Honestly though, when you name you planet "Lamentis" what do you expect? Its like building a plane and naming it the Icarus, or a boat called the Mergerentur, your really just asking for trouble. 

To be fair, they were on a moon, Lamentis-1, named after the planet, Lamentis. I don't know if they said the actual planet was habitable, but maybe it was never meant to be, so they didn't bother picking a better name. LOL 

Edited by pezgirl7
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1 hour ago, pezgirl7 said:

To be fair, they were on a moon, Lamentis-1. I don't know if they said the actual planet was habitable, but maybe it was never meant to be, so they didn't bother picking a better name. LOL 

I thought it was implied that Sylvie had been there before, because once they became aware of the falling bits of moon outside she knew right where they were. Maybe she'd hidden in the Lamentis apocalypse in another timeline? This time travel stuff is giving me a headache.

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1 minute ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Maybe she'd hidden in the Lamentis apocalypse in another timeline? This time travel stuff is giving me a headache.

I think she did, she said something about how Loki picked the worst of her hiding spots. I don't think it would have to be another timeline, I thought her device let her go anywhere in time, so she could keep going back to the same place as many times as she wants. What I still don't understand is how she was able to get onto the sacred timeline from her own timeline. Did the TVA come to reset her timeline, and she somehow got a hold of a TemPad and escaped? Or was she brought to the TVA as a child and then escaped? If the TVA destroyed her timeline, that's a pretty good reason for her to want to get revenge.

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If Sylvie didn’t have Frigga as a mother, is it possible she didn’t make it off Jotunheim as a baby? Or did another Asgardian grab her and adopt her instead?  

Loki still looks like his Frost Giant shape, if not color. Is Sylvie shape shifted? She doesn’t appear to have illusions like Loki does to reimage herself- although Baby Loki changed from a blue baby, so maybe it’s just a built-in gift  

Also, she knew the Loki name but says that’s not her. Has she been hanging out in enough timelines close to the Sacred Timeline that she’s done hearing about “Perfect Loki”.... or did Odin and Frigga end up with a different Loki-son?

Edited by Cerulean · Reason: Baby Loki!

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Mobius didn't even hint that the killer variant was female. Maybe mostly that's for the shock reveal as a TV show, but it suggests Mobius didn't know, which raises the question of how the TVA knew they were hunting a Loki at all.

It also makes me wonder about having all the possessed humans in ep 2 act so much like our Loki (there was a whole news piece from last week about how the other actors did their takes on MCU Loki). In this episode, Sylvie seems distinctly different from Loki. With a wildly different personal history and skillset, she seems far less invested in attaining power, or being admired, or even in employing verbal persuasion rather than straight up mind control or using violence.

BTW, those fight scenes at the beginning and end of the episode were terrific.

 

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14 minutes ago, arc said:

Mobius didn't even hint that the killer variant was female. Maybe mostly that's for the shock reveal as a TV show, but it suggests Mobius didn't know, which raises the question of how the TVA knew they were hunting a Loki at all.

I think they detected his temporal aura or something. I forget what it's called.

Here's another crazy theory. I was rewatching the scene of Loki singing, and the way Sylvie looks at Loki is really odd. Maybe her mother used to sing her that song. Or what if her father did... her father who is another variant Loki? She probably is just a plain old Loki variant, but it'd be interesting if there was another twist!

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59 minutes ago, Cerulean said:

If Sylvie didn’t have Frigga as a mother, is it possible she didn’t make it off Jotunheim as a baby? Or did another Asgardian grab her and adopt her instead?  

I think Frigga was her mother, but she lost her at a young age and doesn't remember her well. Which might explain why she's so different from Loki and dislikes even the name Loki. She may have lost her family and home at an age before she became bitter and resentful about her treatment in comparison to Thor. If so, she probably hates any Loki variant she comes across that has caused so much damage to their version of a home she can't return to.

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It seems ridiculous that a tempad can just run out of charge. What if a Minuteman was out in the field and ran out of juice? If it takes something like a full blown spaceship engine to power it back up, they'd be absolutely screwed if they went to anywhere before, say, 2077.

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I liked the episode and the Lamentis setting was fun but it was the weakest episode so far.  Missed Morbius and while Loki has good banter with everyone, Sylvie isn't as strong in the department or in general.  She's not terrible but she isn't Owen Wilson/Morbius good.

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11 hours ago, Silver-hyren said:

Regarding the episode: I agree with those who suspect the Drunk!Loki scene is an illusion. I think he’s enchanting Sylvie while she’s sleeping on the train. We saw how she projects illusions via enchantment at the beginning, she gave a detailed explanation of how they work, and we know Loki is a quick study. Lots of bricks laid waiting for a payoff.

Yeah, but she gave that detailed explanation after she woke up to drunk, singing Loki and they got kicked off the train.

On 6/23/2021 at 5:46 PM, silverstream said:

But didn't Sylvie say she had to sift through hundreds of years of memories?

Technically, Sylvie said that the memory was hundreds of years old and that most of C-20's memories were "dark and clouded."  So, she pulled a memory from before C-20 became part of the TVA because it was relatively clear and accessible to her.  So, it wasn't that Sylvie had to sort through hundreds of years worth of memories to find the "right" one.  It was more that C-20's mind was a dark, cloudy place and C-20's "Margarita memory" was the first clear bit of light that Slyvie found.

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7 hours ago, arc said:

It seems ridiculous that a tempad can just run out of charge. What if a Minuteman was out in the field and ran out of juice? If it takes something like a full blown spaceship engine to power it back up, they'd be absolutely screwed if they went to anywhere before, say, 2077.

I agree, but to be fair to the Minutemen and their equipment, from what we've seen, most of their missions typically don't seem to last very long at all. Just a quick in-and-out to reset the timeline, and they are done. So I'd guess the tempads simply aren't designed for multiple jumps in rapid succession without being recharged in between, because that isn't how Minutemen missions are structured, and they are so set in their ways it has never occurred to them to even consider any other possibility. The chance of something going wrong, leading to tempad power failure at a critical moment, is absolutely a risk that should be flagged on any halfway decent risk assessment and mitigated accordingly, but the TVA just doesn't seem that...dynamic, to be honest. I get the impression staff are not encouraged to think outside the box (and, perhaps, their brainwashing and memory wipe makes it hard for them to do so), which is what makes Mobius such an outlier.

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1 hour ago, Llywela said:

So I'd guess the tempads simply aren't designed for multiple jumps in rapid succession without being recharged in between, because that isn't how Minutemen missions are structured, and they are so set in their ways it has never occurred to them to even consider any other possibility. The chance of something going wrong, leading to tempad power failure at a critical moment, is absolutely a risk that should be flagged on any halfway decent risk assessment and mitigated accordingly, but the TVA just doesn't seem that...dynamic, to be honest.

I'm inclined to think that's just the limit of what they can technologically achieve, especially since that's probably an obvious thing people would think of first. In the real world, it would also be nice to have computers/smartphones/medical devices that don't need any outside input of energy, but that's just not how it works. And they probably do have risk mitigation factors, such as a way to call headquarters for backup / a tempad replacement if anything goes wrong, plus, if a team just didn't show up again headquarters would send someone to investigate.

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Re: the tempads, the Minutemen also rarely seem to go on missions alone. If each is equipped with their own tempad, I'd think it'd be nearly impossible for everyone's to go dead at the same time - they only need one to open a portal and bring everyone back to the TVA.

On 6/24/2021 at 12:44 AM, Amethyst said:

One thing I noticed was that neither of them had any concern for the doomed citizens of Lamentis, even if they knew those people were going to die.  Like the old woman in the shack.  Would Loki and Sylvie had cared if she'd had small children with her?  Or if her husband had been at her side?

I was actually struck a few times by the fact that Loki WAS showing concern for others. When he and Sylvie reached the city where the Ark was, he exclaimed, "They're going to let them all die!" Yes, acknowledging that is basically the bare minimum, but coming from a Loki who only just tried to conquer Earth with a Chiutari army, it's not nothing. And even if his plan to get off Lamentis-1 using the Ark was largely self-serving, it would've involved at least some of the people escaping safely (and if the theories about the broken tempad being an illusion are true, then he specifically rejected the plan to drain the ship's power to recharge the tempad and instead wanted to ensure that it got off the moon.) Also, when Sylvie was describing her enchantment of Hunter C-20 and Loki realized that everyone at the TVA was a Variant who'd had their memories suppressed, I read concern in his reaction, "But they don't know." It makes sense that he'd be particularly sensitive to people being lied to about who they really are, given his own experiences in Thor.

On 6/24/2021 at 2:33 AM, TrininisaScorp said:

Loki and Sylvie fighting, arguing, and getting to know one another was the highlight of the episode for me.  Either they are bringing on super good foils for Hiddleston or he just has freaking chemistry with everyone (or some combination therein). The conversation on the train required me to watch it twice b/c there was so much happening.  I continue to love the layers Hiddleston gives Loki.  In a moment, you see him talk about Frigga in a way he hasn't ever talked about anyone, and it is so clear that the parts of him that want to do the right thing are motivated by her influence.  That's a lot to convey, and yet it was so rich and obvious culminating in that super cute fireworks trick.  Good conversation about their individual adoption stories too.  I LOVED the almost casual nature of revealing Loki's (and presumably, Sylvie's) sexuality more openly and honestly.  I love the story about this being the showrunner's truth and actively including Loki's bi/pan sexuality as an organic, yet deliberate, part of the show.  The actors played it so well too by not overplaying it.  I'm so happy that it is my boy Loki finally bringing needed representation into the MCU. 

100% agree. The train conversation was a thing of beauty. It was such a pleasure to watch them play off of one another. I loved Loki's remarks about Frigga, the quiet acknowledgement of his sexuality, and showing Sylvie his fireworks magic. Tom Hiddleston is just so damn good, and Sophia Di Martino is doing a nice job bringing in just enough touchstones of the character to let you recognize the similarities, even though Loki and Sylvie are obviously very divergent from one another.

It's a little thing, but I appreciate that Loki gets on board with calling Sylvie by her preferred name and doesn't revert back to trying to call her "Loki." I also like that he doesn't really express any confusion/disbelief over the fact that she's a woman - any doubts he has that she's "really a Loki" come from her actions, not her gender. To everyone who's been making Doctor Who comparisons about this episode, it's the polar opposite of the Master's reaction to Missy in series 10, and I'm here for it.

So after WandaVision gives us, "Grief is love persevering," Loki gives us, "Love is hate," "Love is mischief," and "Love is a dagger." Fitting ideologies for two very different shows.

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19 hours ago, silverstream said:

I'm inclined to think that's just the limit of what they can technologically achieve, especially since that's probably an obvious thing people would think of first. In the real world, it would also be nice to have computers/smartphones/medical devices that don't need any outside input of energy, but that's just not how it works. And they probably do have risk mitigation factors, such as a way to call headquarters for backup / a tempad replacement if anything goes wrong, plus, if a team just didn't show up again headquarters would send someone to investigate.

It could also be a way for the TVA PTB to control their minutemen (without them realizing the actual reasoning behind it): give them ridiculously powerful technology because they need it to perform their prescribed duties, but build in subtle failsafes (like short-ish battery life), in addition to the social conditioning and memory wipes, to make sure they don't act on any independent ideas they might have. 

And TPTB don't actually need to worry about losing minutemen when something goes wrong (unless it's something with the potential to affect their overall goal, like Sylvie stepping up her actions from  evasion to actively attacking them), since they have a steady supply of replacements. 

And now I'm wondering if there are any more Variants in the "sacred" timeline who have been hiding...

On 6/23/2021 at 4:10 PM, johntfs said:
On 6/23/2021 at 3:34 PM, Wynterwolf said:

One thing that had occurred to me as I was watching, during the part when Sylvie woke up and Loki wasn't in the uniform anymore, that Loki could have found some sort of energy source on the train and recharged the timepad without her knowledge. And that the rest of the ep was Loki creating a scenario to see how she would react to different situations. I'm still not entirely convinced he didn't do that. 

I see a few problems with that idea.  First, Loki isn't Tony Stark - or even Peter Parker.  He's not really used to (or skilled at) modifying unfamiliar technology.  There's a reason (other than "It'll piss off Thor") that he used Erik Selvig to set up the Tesseract gate for the Chitauri invasion force.  He didn't know how.  Hell, in this episode when Loki used the time gate he sent himself and Sylvie to super moon death world.

Second, one major problem with "Loki is using illusions to gaslight Sylvie" is that his illusions wouldn't be believable.  Because he's never been to Lamentis and is less familiar with it than Sylvie is.  It's why he got blasted by that old woman - because his illusion of her husband acted out of character.  It's also a reason Loki didn't produce illusory train tickets - because he didn't know what they looked like.

Now, I think he did use an illusion when he showed her the destroyed time door device.  I think he wanted to see what she'd do. 

Sorry, missed this earlier... yes, I agree, the only illusion was Loki showing her the broken tempad.  As for recharging the tempad, definitely true about Loki not being very tech savvy (he likes magic!), but a lot of things could have happened while Sylvie was asleep, and he could have found someone who was tech savvy. And Sylvie could have also overstated how hard it would be to recharge it, trying to discourage him. 

And another interesting potential one-upmanship thing could be that Sylvie has guessed he has the charged tempad, but that she was also playing along to see what he'd do/how far he'd take it, while also waiting for an opportunity to take it back from him. Or none of that could be true!! Games within games! 

Edited by Wynterwolf
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If Loki can change his appearance whenever he wants (like transforming into a guard in this episode), why does he still walk around in the shirt, tie, and variant jacket?  I would think he would have changed all that immediately once he was able to.

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10 hours ago, silverstream said:

In the real world, it would also be nice to have computers/smartphones/medical devices that don't need any outside input of energy, but that's just not how it works

The TVA is the greatest power in the universe! Multiverse, even! Just put a tiny time door in it, powered from the TVA side and route power through that! Or just give every Minuteman in the field a Power Stone paperweight as a backup battery.

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1 hour ago, KeithJ said:

If Loki can change his appearance whenever he wants (like transforming into a guard in this episode), why does he still walk around in the shirt, tie, and variant jacket?  

Wearing real clothes might be a way of conserving magical energy... and Lamentis did not have leather suits and giant horned helmets available...

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19 hours ago, johntfs said:

Yeah, but she gave that detailed explanation after she woke up to drunk, singing Loki and they got kicked off the train.

You're right, got the timeline mixed up. I thought she explained how enchantment works as they were approaching the train (Sylvie just says her plan to get on the train involves enchanting someone in that scene).

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On 6/23/2021 at 8:40 AM, Featherhat said:

Loki getting drunkimage.png

He wasn't drunk, he was full.

On 6/23/2021 at 9:56 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Loki getting drunk and smashing the glass after yelling "Another" shows that he

was very full.

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That single take scene at the end was great, the production team is really knocking this out of the park.

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Posts in this topic should be about the episode. If your post is not primarily about the episode, please rethink where to post it. Posts that are primarily or only about the Marvel movies (or that quote such posts) will be removed without notice, and warnings may be issued. Thank you.

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