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S02.E16: Rebirth

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When a familiar foe descends upon Gotham, Batwoman and Mary find they must rely on each other more than ever. Alice has a has a new mission - and gets an unexpected ally to join her.

Michael Allowitz directed the episode written by Daniel Thomsen.

Airdate: 6/13/2021

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Luke should have taken a vacation before returning to work. 

They got right into Alice and Jacob grabbing Kate for some reprogramming. 

DIGGLE MY BABY!!!! He loves Luke on sight and kicked Tavaroff’s ass. It’s nice that Diggle confirms Luke will end up in the Paradise dimension with the rest of the Arrowverse. 

Maybe they replaced the skull piece with a metal one?

Well played Roman. Having GCPD as your henchmen and arresting Jacob the second he threatened you. 

Mary keeps a syringe of benzodiazepines in her boot. She needs her own comic series stat.

I’m with Jacob and have complete confidence in Mary’s ability to bring both Kate and Beth back. Mary can do anything she wants.

Wallis is doing a great job. 

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I guess no one decided to do a story about Oliver's friends back when the entire world was mourning his death because Diggle really should be famous enough for someone like Luke to recognize immediately.

And sure, Sionis is a scumbag and all that but his company does make one heck of a skin cream if it can completely heal the type of wounds Kate had.  Someone needs to make sure that stuff is still produced once he gets his inevitable comeuppance. 

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I don't like them excusing Alice's actions on her being hypnotized into it. It ruins her character for me.  And I really don't like Jacob telling Mary to save Kate and Beth. I'm sorry, but Beth is gone. Mary shouldn't have to get to know Beth. She only knows Alice. The same Alice that killed her mother. I felt like he was being dismissive.

I understand twins would have a more deep personal connection, but I kinda wanted Jacob to trigger Kate's memories as well.

I think several people called Ocean being killed?

LMAO what was that wanna be Cover girl commercial?

Diggle's appearance didn't feel organic to me. I don't know how to explain it.

Luke needs some therapy and a hug.

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Gotta go to bed. But this:

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

Mary keeps a syringe of benzodiazepines in her boot. She needs her own comic series stat.

Spoiler: all her boots have space-bending technology. They're all bigger on the inside

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Why was Ocean the one to bring Kate's most personal belongings, was her twin sister and father to busy?

I thought Luke was rude, why would you come to work, and then tell people you want to be left alone? You should have just stayed home.

Something is wrong when you have to import Black people from other TV Shows when you want to have a discussion about racial issues.

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While it was great seeing Diggle/David Ramsey in the Arrowverse again, it did kind of feel like he was just there because the show needed another black male character to talk with Luke about racial issues and finding ways to channel his anger towards something righteous.  I mean, I guess he is the best option, since I don't see Joe West taking a sabbatical to Gotham (Jefferson Pierce could have worked too, but Black Lightning ending might have put a stop to that.)  Still, Diggle!  Hope we see him again in another Arrowverse show (clearly him having some kind of headache is setting something up...)

I totally understand why Jacob is determined to believe that "Beth" is still in there somewhere, but I really think it's too late, and I feel bad for Mary that it seems like she is being pressured to forgive Alice and move past their history.  Even if said history includes Alice pretty much murdering Mary's mom.  I don't know: Alice is one of my favorite characters here, but I really can't see a believable way to walk back everything she has done.

Whelp, of course the GCPD is on Roman's payroll, so there really isn't any law enforcement in this freaking city that is worth a damn.

Safiyah finally makes her grand return, and is already effectively putting the screw to Alice, I see.  Fare thee well, Ocean!

Kate's.... kind of back, but not really since it's another classic tale of two personalities having a showdown in her mind palace or whatever, that is making things rough for her and everyone around her.  We'll see how this plays out!  Still liking Wallis Day in the role.

Despite being the lead character, Ryan really doesn't seem to have any personal stakes here and is almost just along for the ride at this point. 

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10 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Despite being the lead character, Ryan really doesn't seem to have any personal stakes here and is almost just along for the ride at this point. 

When you have a strong supporting cast of characters that people like, sidelining the main character isn't bad.  But, people have to like those characters, otherwise you end up with something terrible, like a certain show on the CW about a person who is fast.  Good news for Batwoman is that Mary, Luke, and Alice are all good established characters.

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I don't like that they're making Ryan an accessory. I also don't like that they are basically reprising the "Painkiller" story from Black Lightning, which I found unbearable and was part of why I stopped watching that show. They could have developed Ryan's network more, they have already dumped her love interest and activist friend from the community center, and I liked that one! If they really do plan to bring Wallace Day back into the Kate role and push Ryan to the side, I'll definitely drop this show, too. We don't need any more Black women used as placeholders and then ditched when whitey comes back to town. The show was in a bind but they didn't have to go all in on racist tropes to get out of it. If they really are going to reduce Ryan's role, they never should have introduced her inthe first place. So hopefully that's NOT where this is headed.

No idea who "Diggle" is, but I don't know why they needed a Black male character from another show. They could have created any character they wanted. Any random Gotham Black male would have worked just fine. I guess they're hoping to catch some of the viewers from whatever other show he's from.

Jacob is and has always been weak, selfish, stupid, corrupt, obnoxious, and an asshole.

Mary continues to be The Best. 

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10 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I guess no one decided to do a story about Oliver's friends back when the entire world was mourning his death because Diggle really should be famous enough for someone like Luke to recognize immediately.

It's plausible to me that either a) whatever stories were done after Arrow's death didn't feature much about John Diggle in his civilian guise or even about Spartan or b) Luke (and for that matter Tavaroff) would not make the connection between Arrow's bodyguard/friend John Diggle or Spartan and this guy, especially considering Luke is not at the top of his game at the time (at least two stiff drinks in, mentally and physically shaky after being shot, focused on revenge).

6 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Why was Ocean the one to bring Kate's most personal belongings, was her twin sister and father to busy?

I thought Luke was rude, why would you come to work, and then tell people you want to be left alone? You should have just stayed home.

Something is wrong when you have to import Black people from other TV Shows when you want to have a discussion about racial issues.

I assume Ocean was just the one who lifted them. Beth or Jake would have had to pick them out.

I can completely relate to Luke either a) deceiving himself into thinking that jumping back into the old routine would be easier to do than it actually was or b) knowing that he wasn't ready but hoping that he could fake the funk or that he would not be put to the test. People process trauma in different ways, and the same person can process it differently at different times. For some people, it's better to dive back into work because it gives them something else to occupy their mind. And peer and other pressure can prompt people to make decisions that aren't necessarily the best.

If you think Batwoman feels a need to import Black people from elsewhere to discuss racial issues, then you haven't been paying attention.

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

While it was great seeing Diggle/David Ramsey in the Arrowverse again, it did kind of feel like he was just there because the show needed another black male character to talk with Luke about racial issues and finding ways to channel his anger towards something righteous.  I mean, I guess he is the best option, since I don't see Joe West taking a sabbatical to Gotham (Jefferson Pierce could have worked too, but Black Lightning ending might have put a stop to that.)  Still, Diggle!  Hope we see him again in another Arrowverse show (clearly him having some kind of headache is setting something up...)

....

Despite being the lead character, Ryan really doesn't seem to have any personal stakes here and is almost just along for the ride at this point. 

Even though I did a mental fist pump when I saw Diggle, similar scenes could have been done with Ryan, Mary or an unknown Fox relative instead and it would have worked out mostly the same. Or Stephanie. Heck, he could have had another mind place discussion with head!Bruce and that would have been good too.  I don't think there is much about Diggle's black maleness that informed his lines or frame of reference. Indeed, over on Arrow it was treated mostly as though it was incidental that Diggle happened to be a black male as opposed to an important or central part of his character the way it is for each of the main characters on Black Lightning, Ryan and even Luke here. 

I think it's fine that Ryan is not personally tied to Black Mask or Safiyah. I think it a stretch where every villain is linked to every hero. I think it's enough to have the hero want to stop the bad guys from doing bad guy things.

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Luke really needed to take a few vacation days, preferably not following his shooter around to play high stakes poker to work out his trauma, before getting back to work. Unfortunately that's tough when his seemingly deceased friend has come back from the dead but with another person's face and is now battling between herself and the crazy cover girl who's personality was imprinted on her, because...its a comic book world and shit like that happens, even in the midst of real world issues like police brutality. 

Its great to see Diggle/David Ramsey again, one of my very favorite Arrowverse characters, and if anyone can get someone out of a near death experience funk its him, although sadly I was rather underwhelmed by his cameo. It felt like they just needed a black male character to be the one to talk to Luke about his issues, there was nothing here that couldn't have been said by Ryan or Mary, as great as it is to hear a classic Diggle pep talk. I wish they had made it a bit more personal to Diggle and his experiences, as both a black man who was a soldier and in law enforcement as well as a person who has dealt with a lot of personal struggles, or even tied this into his feelings about Oliver's death seeker tendencies finally getting the best of him and his grief and guilt over that. Are we going to learn about that green lantern ring, and what is up with that headache? A side effect of having a green space ring that gives him powers? 

So Kate is back...kind of sort of, her personality is coming through the personality that got grafted onto her, thanks to her feels about her family and Sophie, which is all kinds of weird but weirder things have certainly gone down in Gotham. I am curious about where this goes, with Kate back does that mean she and Ryan will share Batwoman duties, or will Kate end up leaving to go and take care of another city? I don't want it to feel like Ryan has just been a placeholder all along for Kate, they decided to commit to Ryan as the news Batwoman and I don't want them to walk that back. I am glad that Kate at least has a chance to have more adventures or some kind of happy ending, even if its an unconventional one. 

They are really going hard with the whole "Alice was never really responsible for anything she did" stuff huh? I really do not like this, it very much reeks of a ret-con that was created so that the audience could get onboard Alice becoming a good guy without having to really work to redeem her, it makes her leaving villainy behind way too easy. It also takes away from her whole arc of being broken by these evil people who kidnapped her and this leading her to become Alice, a twisted but tragic figure who did evil things because evil things happened to her, and makes it all just fodder for an angsty backstory that apparently meant very little in how it affected her. It was all mind control, not any kind of mental break caused by extreme abuse, it was just magic apparently, so everything she has done before this has pretty much just been the fault of some other villain we just met, making all of it pretty pointless. It also conveniently means she never has to face any consequences for her actions because now none of them were actually her fault, and she can just seamlessly step into the good guy role without any awkwardness surrounding her multiple murders and episodes of terror and death, even ones that she has committed pretty recently after finding out that she was brainwashed into being Alice, its so great when people can get away with murder based on random mind control bullshit that excuses everything ever. I guess its better than the standard Arrowverse murder Get Out of Jail Free Card of "but they're totally good now so that means they're previous crimes shouldn't count! Her father died, and that makes becoming a cold blooded killer alright!" style excuses, but it really robs Alice of what makes her a great compelling villain to give her this built in excuse to be instantly forgiven. Now I guess Mary will just have to get over Alice murdering her mom in cold blood to help her, sucks to be Mary. 

Its too bad that they killed Ocean now when he was finally becoming more interesting, him being all "meeting the parents" while meeting Jacob was kind of charming, but I am not surprised. He had "tragic angst death" written all over him. 

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Aw, Luke! Can we get him more hugs please?? It's insane that all the stuff in these past three episodes all happened in apparently 2-3 days! Anyway, I'm always glad to see Luke out of the Batcave; he always deserves a day off. It was understandable that he confronted Tavaroff, even though he was never going to win in a fistfight. Looking forward to Luke stepping up as a hero.

It was nice to see Diggle again, and I liked his talk and interactions with Luke; but I really thought that he was going to have more to do. However, I think I would have liked the talk more if Luke heard it from someone who had a closer personal relationship with him. Bruce Wayne would be my first choice, but a Fox family member, or even Ryan would have been better.

I might need to re-watch, because I'm still not clear on why Sionis has beef with the Kanes. I think it was because of Jacob's Crows somehow being related to Circe dying?? (Even though he blamed Batwoman before - and apparently he doesn't know Kate was Batwoman??)

Well, Safiyah is kind of a crappy queen if her entire island has "nothing" after one fire. She still has her League Guild of Assassins, at least, right?

Hey I like Alice as an antagonist; but of all the villains in the DC-verse who not only should, but easily can be shot on sight, it's her; but yet her enemies keep letting her literally walk away when they have her. Her Plot Armor is amazing.

It was interesting to Alice and Jacob team up, and that Alice was able to start restoring Kate's mind. Jacob seeing the the 'Beth' in Alice thus starts her redemption - but I don't know how they can get everyone else on board with that though. I mean, she was still murdering in this very episode.

Wait - I thought it was publicly known that Alice was Beth Kane? I thought that happened in Season 1? In any case, I was afraid that Jacob was going to get murdered right after he accepted Alice, but they killed Ocean instead.

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Its too bad that they killed Ocean now when he was finally becoming more interesting, him being all "meeting the parents" while meeting Jacob was kind of charming, but I am not surprised. He had "tragic angst death" written all over him. 

I'm sad to see him go, but he was never going to last past this season.

As for Kate - yeah, that's some amazing skin cream! I don't think Sionis' plan is very smart though, should he really be so public with the 'daughter' that not his daughter?

It's been so long since we've seen Kate, I'm not really sure how I feel about this new version. Although, I thought it was really interesting that they went with the true love trope of "I know you, even when I don't know myself" with Sophie & Kate. I guess the writers are committed to that pairing.

Edited by Trini
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I think Luke needed to hear The Speech from someone outside his close circle. I think part of what made it effective was that it helped him see that the ENTIRE world wasn't empty of all redemption. There are others around who could "see" him and he's not so alone with just the Bat Team against an entirely evil horrible world. The random stranger effect can change  your perspective more than "same stuff my family always says".

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Enjoyable episode.

Can't say I'm surprised that Ocean's dead. It felt like he had died 5 times already throughout the season, so I guess the 6th one is the charm. He had a nice face, but the character was very bland.

Diggle was meh. It would have been more interesting to find out how he had been coping since Oliver died. 

I liked seeing Safiyah again.

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It was great to see David Ramsey again, and I saw it as part of the "changing of the guard" within the Arrowverse with him passing the baton to Camrus.  However, unless you watched Arrow and him consistently through the shows it's like "why who huh?"   Since he'll be bouncing around the shows this summer, this was a reintroduction to him.  Even though Arrow ended almost 18 months ago, it's felt like 5 years (thanks COVID!)

3 hours ago, Trini said:

As for Kate - yeah, that's some amazing skin cream!

If it works that well on healing skin, it must be AMAZING to remove all of Kate's tattoos.  Which had me thinking if they would eventually have to explain it should Wallis ever go sleeveless.  Not only would replicating it as makeup take forever, wouldn't that veer towards copying Ruby's likeness which is a no no?

 

Not liking the "Alice has some sort of humanity in her!" route.  Because sure, let's forget she killed YOUR WIFE.  

Bye Ocean.  You served some purpose.  I think.  Whatever, you're dead now so YAY. 

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Dingle is gonna Appear on every Arrowverse show except for already ended Black Lighting and Stargirl( because of her being on Earth-2 im guessing) so we just may get more insight into how he's doing including those headaches. 

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4 hours ago, mtlchick said:

If it works that well on healing skin, it must be AMAZING to remove all of Kate's tattoos.  Which had me thinking if they would eventually have to explain it should Wallis ever go sleeveless.  Not only would replicating it as makeup take forever, wouldn't that veer towards copying Ruby's likeness which is a no no?

Forgot about her tattoos - thanks for the reminder! Yeah, they're going to need to explain that. I don't think they need to exactly replicate Ruby's tattoos, though.

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Jacob: You're not getting away with this! I till got friends in the GCPD.

Roman: That reminds me. Guys?

(henchmen remove masks take off masks and put out their badges)

Jacob: Shit. How did I not see that coming? This is Gotham City. Hope comes to die here.

14 hours ago, possibilities said:

No idea who "Diggle" is, but I don't know why they needed a Black male character from another show. They could have created any character they wanted. Any random Gotham Black male would have worked just fine. I guess they're hoping to catch some of the viewers from whatever other show he's from.

In brief: Diggle started out on Arrow, body-guarding the recently returned Oliver Queen. Diggle was the first person Ollie told in regard to his mission. Throughout Arrow, Diggle became the rock of the team that formed around Green Arrow. At the end of Arrow (or was it COIE?), it was implied that he had come across a Green Lantern power ring. Apologies if this came off as geeksplaining.

9 hours ago, Trini said:

As for Kate - yeah, that's some amazing skin cream! I don't think Sionis' plan is very smart though, should he really be so public with the 'daughter' that not his daughter?

I flashed back to "Feat of Clay" from BTAS and Roland Daggart.

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2 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

In brief: Diggle started out on Arrow, body-guarding the recently returned Oliver Queen. Diggle was the first person Ollie told in regard to his mission. Throughout Arrow, Diggle became the rock of the team that formed around Green Arrow. At the end of Arrow (or was it COIE?), it was implied that he had come across a Green Lantern power ring. Apologies if this came off as geeksplaining.

I appreciate the effort to fill me in. 

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10 hours ago, mtlchick said:

If it works that well on healing skin, it must be AMAZING to remove all of Kate's tattoos.  Which had me thinking if they would eventually have to explain it should Wallis ever go sleeveless.  Not only would replicating it as makeup take forever, wouldn't that veer towards copying Ruby's likeness which is a no no?

Roman wanted her to look like his daughter. So he probably had Kate's tattoos removed as part of that process.

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21 hours ago, Trini said:

Aw, Luke! Can we get him more hugs please?? It's insane that all the stuff in these past three episodes all happened in apparently 2-3 days! Anyway, I'm always glad to see Luke out of the Batcave; he always deserves a day off. It was understandable that he confronted Tavaroff, even though he was never going to win in a fistfight. Looking forward to Luke stepping up as a hero.

I liked the poker game, especially the part where Luke straight up started dissing everyone there.

 

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It was nice to see Diggle again, and I liked his talk and interactions with Luke; but I really thought that he was going to have more to do. However, I think I would have liked the talk more if Luke heard it from someone who had a closer personal relationship with him. Bruce Wayne would be my first choice, but a Fox family member, or even Ryan would have been better.

He did talk with Ryan, but I thought it was conceivable that he would he would benefit from speaking to a stranger. I did appreciate that this proves that Team Batwoman is mostly unconnected to the rest of the superhero scene with Kate gone.

 

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Well, Safiyah is kind of a crappy queen if her entire island has "nothing" after one fire. She still has her League Guild of Assassins, at least, right?

Safiyah is so incompetent it's almost breathtaking. She has the most valuable plant in the world, yet she hoards it and does it so poorly that she can't even keep a few safe in a vault or something.

 

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Hey I like Alice as an antagonist; but of all the villains in the DC-verse who not only should, but easily can be shot on sight, it's her; but yet her enemies keep letting her literally walk away when they have her. Her Plot Armor is amazing.

I've been saying it all along, Alice is just benefitting from being a Kane. Without Jacob and Kate around, she'd have been caught or killed ages ago.

 

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It's been so long since we've seen Kate, I'm not really sure how I feel about this new version. Although, I thought it was really interesting that they went with the true love trope of "I know you, even when I don't know myself" with Sophie & Kate. I guess the writers are committed to that pairing.

I honestly thought they were trying to set up Sophie with Ryan, but if this means Ryan can start a relationship with that activist lady, no complaints from me!

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I have the opposite of a green thumb so I really don't understand why there was no mention of keeping some part of the magic plant to grow a new one. 

I loved Diggle on Arrow so I enjoyed seeing him here but I don't know that that talk with Luke had to be him. And now I'm all worried about the headaches which is distracting from the actual plot of this episode. I'm hoping things will flow better once we've seen more of Diggle's cameos.

 

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12 minutes ago, akg said:

I have the opposite of a green thumb so I really don't understand why there was no mention of keeping some part of the magic plant to grow a new one. 

Yeah-- give Safiyah a cutting or something. Also, didn't Safiyah save seeds? Does this plant not reproduce like other plants? Or, you know. kill Safiyah, what the hell, why are they so good at fighting entire hordes of people, but Safiyah is magically both incompetent and formidable.

This show turns entirely on plot contrivance. It's like: hmmmn... we don't want to give up this character, so we make our team bumbling here. But we want to make them seem superheroic, so we set up massive crowds of people who can be easily defeated in another moment.

They will give up the miracle cure plant in exchange for the psychotic serial killer who killed both Ryan's and Mary's mom, instead of maybe trying feeding some to Kate to see if it reverses her damage. I mean, at least TRY it. I bet it would help with Diggle's headaches, too. Because magic rolls that way. So now they will need to go back to Safiyah's and steal back the plant? 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Yeah-- give Safiyah a cutting or something. Also, didn't Safiyah save seeds? Does this plant not reproduce like other plants?

She put all her budget into her League of Assassins lookalikes instead of you know, urban planning.

 

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Or, you know. kill Safiyah, what the hell, why are they so good at fighting entire hordes of people, but Safiyah is magically both incompetent and formidable.

They try to avoid killing as a rule, and she had a hostage, plus she was surrounded by goons.

 

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They will give up the miracle cure plant in exchange for the psychotic serial killer who killed both Ryan's and Mary's mom, instead of maybe trying feeding some to Kate to see if it reverses her damage.

She was hypnotized, how is the Desert Rose going to fix that?

 

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I mean, at least TRY it. I bet it would help with Diggle's headaches, too. Because magic rolls that way. So now they will need to go back to Safiyah's and steal back the plant? 

The Desert Rose might be magic, but it runs under rules. It's only good for physical maladies.

They've pretty clearly foreshadowed what's going on with Diggle, and it's not an injury, nor it is something that gonna get handled in this show.

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55 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Yeah-- give Safiyah a cutting or something. Also, didn't Safiyah save seeds? Does this plant not reproduce like other plants? ...

Yeah, like I said when we first heard about all the plants being destroyed - that's NOT how agriculture works, TV writers!!

 

33 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

She was hypnotized, how is the Desert Rose going to fix that?

The Desert Rose might be magic, but it runs under rules. It's only good for physical maladies.

Does it, though? And they can always change the rules.

But back to the original point, I also think it was dumb not to at least save some flowers for Kate, or for the next emergency. I mean, this thing literally cures death; be smarter than Safiyah and save some seeds.

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Just now, Trini said:

Does it, though? And they can always change the rules.

From what we've seen so far, it does and I doubt they will.

 

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But back to the original point, I also think it was dumb not to at least save some flowers for Kate, or for the next emergency. I mean, this thing literally cures death; be smarter than Safiyah and save some seeds.

This is exactly why they're getting rid of it, it's too convenient. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that you can't propogate the thing through cuttings (not all plants can be) or that it simply isn't producing seeds right now.

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Further thoughts:

Jake Kane, a billionaire whose accusation of being in cahoots with Alice in actually committing crimes is not backed up by evidence, is not able to make bail and is going to be shipped off to be held in some sort of Metropolis facility. No bail for that guy.

But Tavaroff, who shot and framed Luke, AND gunned down a dozen or so Snakebite zombies AND organized a conspiracy to kidnap and kill Jake is able to make bail on what I'd assume to be a salary of $200k or so at best.

I don't know if they can have Tavaroff suffer enough for what he's done.

As someone involved in the criminal justice system, I suppose Jake should have exercised his right to remain silent.

I thought it was semi-public knowledge that Jake was Alice's father.

I don't know if I was able to see the board in the poker game, but it seemed awfully careless for Tavaroff to raise and then call an all-in re-raise where it looks like the best he had was trips aces and the board had a possible straight on it. ETA: I pulled up the episode. The board was 6-7-8-K-Q without a flush possibility. Someone who had just pocket aces would probably be strictly wrong to call a reraise all in as basically the only hand that someone might have you could beat is a bluff or a pair of Kings or Queens. If they had a pocket pair that matched the board, or any two pair, you lose.  Also, since Tavaroff was calling Luke's reraise, Luke should have had to show his hand first. They could have easily made it make more sense by having Tavaroff having the 5-9 for the lower straight and Luke having 9-10 for the bigger straight. 

I also think talking about "the house always wins" blah blah blah was a stretch in the context of the game because Tavaroff isn't the house. He's a player. The house is whoever is running the game, and it doesn't really have any particular incentive of this player or that winning. It's also weird to be like, "Y'all always cheat" and then tip the allegedly cheaty dealer. 

I'm trying to figure out if Luke had a death wish in trying to confront Tavaroff in general, and in going down Gotham's second least secure alley and letting Tavaroff pick a fight. Like did he think his recently shot, no particular fighting-skills-that-we-know-of self was going to have a fair chance in a fight with Tavaroff?

Safiyah probably should have been like, "Thanks for the plant, Batwoman. We're keeping it AND Alice."

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I definitely thought for sure Luke was trying to get himself killed, as in "I want to die, but I'm going to at least have a moment where I fight back, to assert my humanity, before they kill me". 

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On 6/13/2021 at 9:14 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

 

I don't like them excusing Alice's actions on her being hypnotized into it. It ruins her character for me.  And I really don't like Jacob telling Mary to save Kate and Beth. I'm sorry, but Beth is gone. Mary shouldn't have to get to know Beth. She only knows Alice. The same Alice that killed her mother. I felt like he was being dismissive.

He was. Since Ruby Rose left and thus they had to completely change the entire plot they were planning for the reason they've been awkwardly trying to shove in a redemption arc into a villain that they never intended to have a redemption arc before since they don't know what else to do with her. I would've greatly preferred it if Alice had just gotten killed and that was the end of it, because there's no way this complete psychopath could be redeemed in any way. The only way this whole thing could be more ridiculous is if they killed Ryan off and made Alice the new Batwoman, but there's no way they could be stupid enough to do that right?

Me watching Season 3:

"God dammit!"

I really really hope that's just a joke. I REALLY do.

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Diggle's appearance didn't feel organic to me. I don't know how to explain it.

Diggle was a plot device to get Luke over his "I wanted to die" trauma quickly, no more no less. There's literally no reason Diggle should be anywhere near Gotham, especially for a hospital with "world renowned neurology" we never heard before now. It's a cameo to get Arrow fans on board.

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I understand twins would have a more deep personal connection, but I kinda wanted Jacob to trigger Kate's memories as well.

Especially considering he's, you know, Kate's FATHER and unlike Alice she spent a good deal of her life with him. Absentee father or not, Jacob should have a very strong relationship with Kate. As opposed to Alice/Beth who truth be told Kate barely even knows as anything other than a psychopathic serial killer.

The whole thing was going way too smoothly, they should've made it a lot harder for Kate to wake up to who she is in this episode, then maybe I might have bought it for more than a millisecond that it was actually going to work.

On 6/14/2021 at 2:26 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Whelp, of course the GCPD is on Roman's payroll, so there really isn't any law enforcement in this freaking city that is worth a damn.

Par for the course for Gotham.

On 6/14/2021 at 7:44 AM, possibilities said:

 If they really do plan to bring Wallace Day back into the Kate role and push Ryan to the side, I'll definitely drop this show, too. We don't need any more Black women used as placeholders and then ditched when whitey comes back to town. The show was in a bind but they didn't have to go all in on racist tropes to get out of it. If they really are going to reduce Ryan's role, they never should have introduced her inthe first place. So hopefully that's NOT where this is headed.

Ryan has honestly been pretty superfluous in the whole season. They really should've just taken one of the already established female characters and made them Batwoman, then if they decided to recast Kate and put her back to being Batwoman it wouldn't be such a blow. I doubt they will put Kate back in the batsuit though. 

14 hours ago, possibilities said:

why are they so good at fighting entire hordes of people, but Safiyah is magically both incompetent and formidable.

This, at least, can be explained by Ryan herself being a bad fighter. Sure, she CAN fight, kind of, but Ryan gets her butt regularly kicked by like 4 or 5 mooks at the most, an amount that Kate would've blown her way through without even trying, not to mention actual supervillains.

13 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

This is exactly why they're getting rid of it, it's too convenient. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that you can't propogate the thing through cuttings (not all plants can be) or that it simply isn't producing seeds right now.

Sadly, Ocean making a cutting and sneaking out with the plant is exactly how the plant that Ryan just gave up came to exist.

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Safiyah probably should have been like, "Thanks for the plant, Batwoman. We're keeping it AND Alice."

Safiyah had all the cards and no reason whatsoever to actually hold to her end of the deal. I kept expecting the goons to smash the two over the head or something and drag them off unconscious to be killed or something the whole time, especially when Alice started mouthing off to Safiyah.

Edited by immortalfrieza

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9 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

He was. Since Ruby Rose left and thus they had to completely change the entire plot they were planning for the reason they've been awkwardly trying to shove in a redemption arc into a villain that they never intended to have a redemption arc before since they don't know what else to do with her. I would've greatly preferred it if Alice had just gotten killed and that was the end of it, because there's no way this complete psychopath could be redeemed in any way. The only way this whole thing could be more ridiculous is if they killed Ryan off and made Alice the new Batwoman, but there's no way they could be stupid enough to do that right?

Disagree about Alice's redemption arc. Even with all the horrible stuff she's done, being that she's the hero's sister and had a traumatic childhood, I think the possibility was always there. (And there's some precedent for it from the source material.) Now, whether that's believable is a whole other matter, but I think an attempt would have been made at some point regardless of the cast change.

9 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

Ryan has honestly been pretty superfluous in the whole season.

Most of this season's stories have been centered on her journey, so that's not true. But I do wonder how things would have looked like if they had chosen to have Sophie take up the mantle instead.

I don't know if they really can go back to Kate as Batwoman; it's going look worse that they reneged on who gets the mantle.

Edited by Trini · Reason: oy, grammar
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I like Ryan, but I do think Sophie would have been a more natural transition and easier to adjust the writing for. Ryan is really the only person who doesn't have a natural connection with the rest of the team, and the more they tell her story and bring in characters naturally related to her, the faster they discard them and pivot back to the original cast. It's insulting, like they really didn't commit to the change and were just using her to be a graft onto their original plans, and increasingly they are jettisoning her own motivations. I find it insulting to just use her in this way and I really don't think I'll keep watching if they actually do continue to marginalize her. They were not doing that in the beginning, but something changed and they have been doing it more and more, reducing her characterization and her competence, as though they regret introducing her at all.

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I had forgotten that Batwoman has already been renewed for season three. As we move to the "finish line" of season three it seems like they are starting to jettision things from season one that were more or less "kate kane centric". The Crows are gone. Feels like Dougray Scott won't be around for season three. Sophie has quit the Crows and has no real story line anymore so it's easy to see her decide to leave for a new city and new start. 

As for this episode I was truly surprised by the deaht of Ocean. I have been thoroughly enjoyin the Alice redemption arc and foolishly thought she would be able to "have it all": Love with Ocean, Forgive her father and forge a relationship there, find Kate and strengthen that bond due to both have been brainwashed. 

I enjoyed watching Luke take a closer step toward his Batwing destiny. Though having John Diggle nudge him in that direction did seem out of nowhere. I hope the other "arrowverse" shows follow up on John's medical issues. 

Mary is truly become a star in her own right. Who else would carry a tranquilizer syringe in their boot?

My hopes for season three are that Alice, Kate, and Mary will begin to forge a stronger sister bond. I can see Ryan and Luke out in the fieldas hero partners Batwoman and Batwing. Kate mans the batcave along side Mary who splits time between bat duty and her clinic. Alice continues her redemption arc and slowly transitions into "hero" Red Alice. Kate transitions on the "Oracle/Overwatch" of the series. I suspect Tavaroff will become one the villians for season three as well. 

I will give the creative team behind Batwoman a nod because I think they've been doing a great job of pushing past the initial/original plans for the series after Ruby Rose left and pivoting the series to focus on  new hero. While it has been a bit of bumpy ride at first they seem to be finding their stride and forging ahead. 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Gizmo321 said:

Mary is truly become a star in her own right. Who else would carry a tranquilizer syringe in their boot?

 

I regret that I didn't think of nominating her for a Primetimer award as best sidekick, until after the noms were closed.

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16 hours ago, Gizmo321 said:

I had forgotten that Batwoman has already been renewed for season three. As we move to the "finish line" of season three it seems like they are starting to jettision things from season one that were more or less "kate kane centric". The Crows are gone. Feels like Dougray Scott won't be around for season three. Sophie has quit the Crows and has no real story line anymore so it's easy to see her decide to leave for a new city and new start. 

As for this episode I was truly surprised by the deaht of Ocean. I have been thoroughly enjoyin the Alice redemption arc and foolishly thought she would be able to "have it all": Love with Ocean, Forgive her father and forge a relationship there, find Kate and strengthen that bond due to both have been brainwashed. 

I enjoyed watching Luke take a closer step toward his Batwing destiny. Though having John Diggle nudge him in that direction did seem out of nowhere. I hope the other "arrowverse" shows follow up on John's medical issues. 

Mary is truly become a star in her own right. Who else would carry a tranquilizer syringe in their boot?

My hopes for season three are that Alice, Kate, and Mary will begin to forge a stronger sister bond. I can see Ryan and Luke out in the fieldas hero partners Batwoman and Batwing. Kate mans the batcave along side Mary who splits time between bat duty and her clinic. Alice continues her redemption arc and slowly transitions into "hero" Red Alice. Kate transitions on the "Oracle/Overwatch" of the series. I suspect Tavaroff will become one the villians for season three as well. 

I will give the creative team behind Batwoman a nod because I think they've been doing a great job of pushing past the initial/original plans for the series after Ruby Rose left and pivoting the series to focus on  new hero. While it has been a bit of bumpy ride at first they seem to be finding their stride and forging ahead. 

 

 

 

I think the show has done a terrible job replacing Kate Kane with Ryan Wilder. I was on board with giving Ryan a chance when the announcement was first made but everything this show has done with season 2 has made it impossible for me to accept her as Batwoman.

They wasted the first 8 episodes on the ridiculous back & forth as to whether or not Kate is alive or dead.

Then they bring Kate back from the dead & reveal Wallis Day is the recast. This being what many fans were asking for since the news of Ruby Rose leaving came out.

I don't see how to move on from Kate & accept Ryan when everything on the show is still about Kate.

I just feel like when watching Ryan doesn't fit & is just a placeholder for the real Batwoman. It's not like Kate even gave up the mantle. She was kidnapped by a mad man.

So if the show only brought Kate back to hand over the mantle to Ryan I feel like I'm going to resent Ryan even more.

This show to me feels like it is still Kate's story. All the main characters are still her family, friends, exes, enemies, etc. I don't see how this show is ever going to be Ryan Wilders story. And I don't even feel like it should.

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On 6/16/2021 at 1:15 PM, possibilities said:

I like Ryan, but I do think Sophie would have been a more natural transition and easier to adjust the writing for. Ryan is really the only person who doesn't have a natural connection with the rest of the team, and the more they tell her story and bring in characters naturally related to her, the faster they discard them and pivot back to the original cast. It's insulting, like they really didn't commit to the change and were just using her to be a graft onto their original plans, and increasingly they are jettisoning her own motivations. I find it insulting to just use her in this way and I really don't think I'll keep watching if they actually do continue to marginalize her. They were not doing that in the beginning, but something changed and they have been doing it more and more, reducing her characterization and her competence, as though they regret introducing her at all.

I don't think Ryan is being marginalized. However, Kate was the lead last season, and yes, everyone was connected to her, so it makes sense that now that she's back they have to deal with that; so that will take up screentime, etc.

 

14 hours ago, Proteus said:

I don't see how to move on from Kate & accept Ryan when everything on the show is still about Kate.

I just feel like when watching Ryan doesn't fit & is just a placeholder for the real Batwoman. It's not like Kate even gave up the mantle. She was kidnapped by a mad man.

So if the show only brought Kate back to hand over the mantle to Ryan I feel like I'm going to resent Ryan even more.

I wouldn't say everything is about Kate anymore. But I do think Kate is going to hand over the mantle to Ryan, and that what this closing arc of the season is going to be about.

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Me: "Wait! If they disband the Crows won't that just be leaving Gotham under the control of the even more corrupt GCPD?"

The Show: "Yes."

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I honestly don't see the difference. They just got rid of Daddy and moved all the same plotlines to the GCPD instead of the Crows. 

Even Sophie was, as a Crow, shown to be interrogating and basically sending Ryan to jail in Ryan's previous case. 

So now they've just collapsed the two orgs into one, gotten Dad out of the picture, and had Sophie switch to the Good Guy Team.

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Glad that Luke actually had an episode to deal with his near death experience and suicidal thoughts. OK, I’m sure he’ll be fine next week (‘coz that’s how mental health works, right?) but I appreciate the gesture. At least Kate’s recovery of her true identity was slightly more complex. And well done on recasting Kate, because I thought Wallace Day really did look like Ruby Rose (and I’m glad young Kate put in a reappearance, too). Incidentally, are we going to get an explanation of how a piece of Kate’s SKULL was found?

So Ocean’s Death Warrant was finally served. I thought Alice would kill him, so I guess they kinda fooled me there?

On 6/14/2021 at 2:59 AM, scarynikki12 said:

Mary keeps a syringe of benzodiazepines in her boot. She needs her own comic series stat.

Which makes her the most Genre Savvy character on the show! Also, easy to explain away (if it's discovered) given she has a reputation of being a party girl.

On 6/14/2021 at 4:06 AM, Lantern7 said:

Spoiler: all her boots have space-bending technology. They're all bigger on the inside

She probably keeps a full drug store in there - it's how her clinic always has supplies when it's in Gotham's slum district (which is apparently 90% of Gotham).

On 6/15/2021 at 11:28 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Also, since Tavaroff was calling Luke's reraise, Luke should have had to show his hand first. They could have easily made it make more sense by having Tavaroff having the 5-9 for the lower straight and Luke having 9-10 for the bigger straight. 

Safiyah probably should have been like, "Thanks for the plant, Batwoman. We're keeping it AND Alice."

ALSO Also – Luke raised “All In”, not a cash amount. If the bet was "All in", you can always match it by going all in yourself, even with less cash, you wouldn’t need to call for your friends to lend you the money.

I was expecting Safiyah to go all “Exact Words” and say “Alice can leave – I didn’t say I’d let you go.” Obviously Ryan would be able to fight her way out (she's the title character!) but they were remarkably trusting there. They didn't even meet in a neutral location! Does nobody know how to do hostage trades in Gotham?

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