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ElectricBoogaloo

S04.E10: The Wilderness

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11 hours ago, Stephanie23 said:

I agree so much with this.

We need more Gilead next season, Canada just isn't working.

We did not find out who is Nick's new wife, what happened to Esther, Janine and Lydia, also big mistake not showing Serena the ring and finger, etc.

Maybe a controversial opinion, but I am not a fan of the episode (and this season in general), didn't expect much and they still kinda disappointed me lol

 Everything in the second half of the episode felt like a THT fanfic.

 

Tuello omg he definitely gave Fred to Gilead only because of Serena. Now everyone sees that he  does have feelings towards her, even Fred saw it in the way he was observing them talk and when he said what he said to him on the bridge.

Next season the two of them will have a relationship now that Fred is out of the picture.

 

Luke was never a character that  I liked. But this season he delivered.

He was the voice of reason for June and she didn't listen.

 

I hope next season we get less of June finally, there is so much more story to be told besides her story.

I thought Tuello said he was taking the deal to his boss, so I don't think he made the call.  Also I think this kind of screws Serena.  

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48 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Also, one thing I thought about is the 22 people they exchanged for Fred... I don't know if all 22 people were marthas but if they were, I imagine that 22 marthas, or even 10 marthas, would have far more valuable intel than Fred would since Commanders seem to talk freely as if marthas were actual flies on the wall.

I can see that being a far better use of "assets" rather than using Fred.

I think that regardless of what their actual roles were in Gilead (martha, jezebel, etc), the fact that they were all in custody for being part of the resistance means that they will have some kind of useful information. They might not each have the big picture of the entire movement, but the small pieces of information that they each have could add up to a lot, whether it's intel about which commanders have been meeting together, the ins and outs of routines at specific homes/establishments, etc.

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1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

Since we didn't actually see Fred's dead head, I'm thinking 1) It's the Season 5 opening image, and 2) This could be the beginning of the Game of Thrones/Handmaid's Tale crossover event everyone's been clamoring for.*

 

*No one's been clamoring for this.

Hey, I said earlier in the thread that if the writers now gave June the ability to fly & breath fire like a GoT dragon, it wouldn't be out of line with their previous efforts to adhere to the rules of the world they are portraying. I say go for it!

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I think it will have something to do with Fred's finger.  I wish it would be delivered, as addressed, to Serena, but I doubt that.

I think it's going to depend.  Who do they want to pair Serena with, in the inevitable head to heads?  June looks like she's leaving.  That leaves Tuello or Lydia.

I'm rooting for Lydia, after Serena begs Tuello and everyone in sight not to send her back.

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9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think it will have something to do with Fred's finger.  I wish it would be delivered, as addressed, to Serena, but I doubt that.

I think it's going to depend.  Who do they want to pair Serena with, in the inevitable head to heads?  June looks like she's leaving.  That leaves Tuello or Lydia.

I'm rooting for Lydia, after Serena begs Tuello and everyone in sight not to send her back.

Serena repatriated back to Gilead, and getting the wrong end of the cattle prod from Lydia would be both very believable, and karmic, even though I think karma is a crock.

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1 hour ago, EllaWycliffe said:

So, deeper thoughts. I do love that Fred is dead and while I can quibble over whether I prefer Fred getting it from his Gilead buddies is better than Fred torn apart by wronged female victims... gotta be honest, both satisfy for different reasons. Fred on the wall, with the latin phrase, was emotionally satisfying.

That said, the writing really has fallen apart. I'm sorry but we've been told repeatedly that Gilead is shut down, no info coming in or out, the borders locked up tight. The initial capture of Fred I can hand wave at as a one off border weirdness exploit. But are we really supposed to believe that knowing that a high level official defected/was captured simply by driving across the border, that the border on Gilead's side wouldn't be wrapped up double tight since?

The casual movement of Lawrence, a high level official, across the border to make deals on Gilead's behalf just boggles. Likewise Nick magically being in enough communication to organize a prisoner transfer of women, and to divert Fred to... some magical no man's land that not only isn't locked up tight on both sides, but has plenty of space for June to run her version of the Hunger Games with 20+ fugitive handmaids willing to risk recapture to kill Fred. Have these people ever been to Canada and the border? If you cross the border by going over a bridge and you're in Ontario - then you're crossing the St. Lawrence river. Which is fine but you then have to account for how June and her handmaid posse got across the river. It's not "no man's land", it's Gilead proper. The border is so super guarded, Emily was lucky to cross alive... but now handmaids can cross for murder parties in the woods? Murder parties that were *hardly stealthy*, I might add. 

Fred's info was inaccurate and he was not being a willing participant in his debrief. I know Serena is a bitch but her high handedness was incredible considering that Fred had agreed willingly to betray Gilead. I'm also calling bullshit on the need to be questioning Fred on how the oncologist died at Jezebel's - not that the family doesn't deserve closure but because Fred is apparently a font of wisdom on Gilead, and our most important need isn't info on the government but how a specific woman died? He's been given full immunity in exchange for info that is vitally important, and this is what's being asked? And he's allowed to blow off the question?

I still don't understand why June assumed Luke would want her to leave and to be blunt, I see utterly no reason why she can't take her daughter by a different man with her. 

I don’t think she wants to take baby Nicole with her. A war zone is no place for a baby. She knows Nicole is safe with Luke and Moira. 

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I feel like baby Nichole should be toddler Nichole by now 🤔

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3 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I don’t think she wants to take baby Nicole with her. A war zone is no place for a baby. She knows Nicole is safe with Luke and Moira. 

I agree with your logic but it was presented at June asking permission for a few minutes with her daughter.... it's her kid. 

And I really don't think its a forgone conclusion that June is now on the run/wanted for Fred's murder. The whole business was openly condoned by Tuello, and it happened theoretically on Gilead soil.

Will she be on the run? Maybe - but its possible she won't need to be.

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4 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

And I really don't think its a forgone conclusion that June is now on the run/wanted for Fred's murder. The whole business was openly condoned by Tuello, and it happened theoretically on Gilead soil.

nah.

Tuello didn't know June was going to kill him.  He specifically put him into Gilead custody, even stated it with Lawrence, knowing he would probably die, but in Gilead, with Gilead justice.

He was killed in the "no go" zone, so sooner or later, someone will find his body.  Also, several witnesses, not all mentally stable, all trauma victims.

June's days in Canada, openly at least?  Are over.

If nothing else, Fred never ARRIVED in Gilead, so there will be an uproar.

ETA

AND they have his finger and his wedding ring.  Forensics will know if that was taken while he was alive, or already dead.

Edited by Umbelina
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4 hours ago, Bannon said:

While it is indeed true that everything is relative, I couldn't believe that the writers made Luke such a towering moron as to say to his wife, after having suffered years of slavery and torture, that they needed to count their blessings, in response to his wife being enraged about the imminent freedom of one of her chief torturers. Good grief, I hope the actor had the courage to try to push back at least a little, in response to being given this line. Oh, well, coulda' been worse; the script might have had Luke sayin', "Hey, June? Let's turn that frown upside down!!!".

I didn't see it that way at all. My grandparents were Holocaust survivors and they were big on "counting their blessings," especially my paternal grandmother, who was in a labor camp for several years. Luke was trying to get June to appreciate how unlikely it was that she not only got out alive, but was also able to reunite with one of her children. From his perspective, he waited for years without much hope of ever seeing her again. Her arrival in Canada was his biggest dream come true, and he doesn't understand why it wasn't also hers. Obviously he doesn't understand everything she went through and never will, but I can't blame him for feeling the way he does.

3 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

Serena and Fred don't really even need a house, they already live in the lap of luxury in the jail loft where they can come and go freely and get unsupervised visits whenever they want, as well as a full wardrobe and apparently free wi-fi.

The wifi is apparently not fast enough for Serena, now that she's getting so many media requests.

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4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

If nothing else, Fred never ARRIVED in Gilead, so there will be an uproar.

Agreed but aside from Luke and Tuello, who knows June was involved?

Tuello isn't going to spill. I doubt Luke will either, so why does June have to hide?

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Tuello didn't know June was going to kill him.  He specifically put him into Gilead custody, even stated it with Lawrence, knowing he would probably die, but in Gilead, with Gilead justice.

He was killed in the "no go" zone, so sooner or later, someone will find his body.  Also, several witnesses, not all mentally stable, all trauma victims.

Tuello condoned it the minute he did the exchange. America and Canada are off the hook for Fred's murder the moment Fred is handed off to Gilead officials. Lawrence might be in some shit, and the no go zone was IN Gilead. Geography is not magical. They crossed the St. Lawrence, they were in Gilead. It's a little ridiculous that the various handmaids got across the border so easily but they did, so why would Canada prosecute them? And why would they talk? Mentally unstable doesn't necessarily mean talkative. 

I mean, the show hasn't been creative this season so I certainly agree its possible that June will be on the run. Its just unfortunate they go in such a pedestrian direction when the story as shown doesn't have to go that way.

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I take it that Luke knows that June killed Fred? She's holding the baby with blood on her face, June apologizes and Luke slides down to the floor in a seemingly hopeless manner.

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11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

AND they have his finger and his wedding ring.  Forensics will know if that was taken while he was alive, or already dead.

Why would this matter?

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6 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Why would this matter?

Just confirmation that he is dead.

11 minutes ago, chocolatine said:
3 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

Serena and Fred don't really even need a house, they already live in the lap of luxury in the jail loft where they can come and go freely and get unsupervised visits whenever they want, as well as a full wardrobe and apparently free wi-fi.

The wifi is apparently not fast enough for Serena, now that she's getting so many media requests.

Honestly it's one room with one large window that looks out at a cement wall.  Beyond that is barbed wire and armed guards.

The double bed, two chairs, a coffee table and a desk, with presumably a basic bathroom somewhere is not exactly child rearing friendly.

They had relatively nice accommodations, but they were still under cameras, microphones, locked in, under guard, and they only had those because they were trying to get information from them, and that is better facilitated that way, since they don't really condone torture in Canada, or under international law.

Serena and her demands will make her comeuppance so much more enjoyable.

Edited by Umbelina
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Well. I watched it.
Unfortunately, June isn't the first woman or the last to not get justice for her rape and abuse in the court system.  It's a common event.
I loved how the TTC street car was adjusted to run on it's own power and not the power lines.
Waterford co-operation was for shits.  His information isn't anything worth a plea deal.
I don't see how Serena feels she can have asks for faster internet, the judges calling him commander and house hunting. I think Tulle really understand now what a bitch Serena is.  And the idiot is still playing the dutiful Gilead wife.
Fred is a dumbass.  But boy was he scared shitless about returning to Gilead.
Yeah, I can't believe that she didn't request Janine to be added to the 22 women. But Lawrence is right.  Revenge is a dish best served cold. And seriously it won't take June's pain away.
The woods scene was so satisfying.  The finger that Serena got was just awesome ending. I wonder how her trial is now going to proceed and how and if this will change her and her ideas about Gilead.

Honestly, I don't think June will suffer any repercussions from this.  This was backed from Tuello for the exchange and as far as he knows, Waterford was tortured and killed by Gilead.  I doubt it any of those women will talk.  Luke won't talk. June is off the hook. Granted this does wreck her relationship with Luke but I don't think he understands fully the PTSD she is going through.
Lastly, it's interested how they have explored the way different people experience PTSD.  Moira (and to the extent Luke) wants to forget about it and move on. Rita is going back to the same patterns being a maid and subservient.  June and Emily want revenge to the point they will kill. The women were all affect with some sort of slavery, rape, torture but dealt with it in different ways.

 

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When June was playing Fred in his room, and asked for that drink?

I really thought she was going to break the glass and go for his jugular vein.

Well acted scene by both, really well done.

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20 hours ago, dmc said:

That wasn't what I expected but I didn't find it polarizing either.

I think most people will be happy Fred is dead.

So apparently there was a way for June to get justice and for them to help other people in Gilead.

So eff Tuello. June ended up making a better deal than he did. I know a lot of people have defended him and doing his job but I think he's shitty at it.

Also the scene where he was talking about June coming to his home as being inapprorpriate seriously fuck this guy and his only sentamentality to a rapist.

Let the Nick and June ship continue!

Bradley Whitford is amazing at his job.

I thought they did a good job as showing Tuello as a bureaucrat not a decision maker.  Also, was he Canadian?

I don’t like the Nick character. He could not be in that trusted position without a handmaid.   They just don’t allow it.  

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Looks like Nick dropped Fred back in Gilead, the former handmaids all had cars in that forest.  No crossing the border for them.

As for why Nick could be in Gilead?  There was a prisoner exchange going on, Canada would be stand down in that area, for the spies to do their thing.

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That they seem like they’ll be pushing a Serena-Tuello romantic relationship when he knows her part in gilead and June’s abuse and rapes… ughhhh

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9 minutes ago, toomuchtv said:

That they seem like they’ll be pushing a Serena-Tuello romantic relationship when he knows her part in gilead and June’s abuse and rapes… ughhhh

I think that ship has sailed.  He used to think she was a damsel in distress, with a powerful husband that could be useful to the USA.  Now he knows who she is, EXACTLY who she is.

The first time I watched this episode, and the "You don't own me" music came on?  It was jarring, but I got it.  Well, I keep watching the whole episode, I like it more each time, but now, when it gets to the music?  I'm singing along.  I LOVE it.

All of the flashbacks were so needed in this episode, to remind us of just how vile Fred, and Gilead is, and how many seemingly "little" things June and other handmaids and Jezebel's had to put up with.  That "Don't bite!" segment?  Imagine how many times June and others had to tell themselves that?  It made everything so real.

It made his execution be what it was, not revenge, but justice, Gilead style, only this time?  The women participated willingly, not because they would be tortured if they didn't. 

I especially loved the scenes with Emily and June, and every scene Rita is in?  She just shines.  

Moira was willing to kill to get herself out, so was Luke.  Rita hasn't faced having to kill, June got her out.  All three are more comfortable now to let someone else do the dirty work.

Emily, June, and those women that joined them?  Are willing to do the work themselves, they know better than to trust anyone else to give them justice, ever again.

Edited by Umbelina · Reason: added don't bite
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I feel for the writers a bit on this one.  I think no matter how they played the end, 50% of the viewers would be unhappy.  If Fred was simply handed over to Gilead, people would be all "can't he just die???" and worrying that he would talk his way out of whatever punishment next season, etc.  Have the handmaid brigade stone him to death, and the other 1/2 complain that it's trite and lazy writing just so June can be the fearless leader and get her revenge.  Personally, I liked the ending, and I felt a little weird when I realized I was smiling as they were beating him to death.  I'm also glad that the show won't have to spend time on Fred anymore - I found him rather boring, and would have liked to see him die at the end of Season 1.

Now, Serena...  oh, I love what they did with her in just a few short episodes.  Putting her back in wife teal outfits, bringing back the bossy bitch we all loved to hate in Season 1, showing her true colors with Truello.  She truly fucked herself with that scene.  I can't wait to see where they go with her next season!  I personally think she'll stay in custody for quite some time.  But she's lost all bargaining power.

I'm totally confused by June and the final scene.  Others have already said it - why does she assume she has to leave?  If I were Luke I'd be giving her a high five and a martini when she walked in the door.  OK, maybe ask her to clean the blood off her face first, but you know...    I also really couldn't figure out the whole scene with her and Fred in his cell/room.  I didn't know what she was going for there.  At first I thought she was taping it, trying to get him to admit he loved her or that he fucked her for the fun of it, or whatever, so she could play the tape for Serena.  Or get him to admit he lied to Truello about something.  But that's not really where it all went.  If someone understands what was going on there, please enlighten me. 

I do wish the show didn't make us handwave so many things away...  the ease in which June is able to contact Joseph and Nick, everyone crossing borders and meeting up whenever they want, getting the handmaid brigade to nomansland, nomansland itself (my theory is that it is definitely not in Canada, it's on the old American side of the border, but maybe not really controlled by Gilead, so still sorta America but a soft squishy border area), the speedy quick Canadian courier/mail system, a political prisoner who doesn't have her mail monitored by someone a bit more official than the guy pushing the mail cart, has unmonitored calls with the outside world, etc etc etc.  They could have taken a few minutes from the boring Jezebel's backflashes or the let's have a drink scene and thrown in a bit of exposition to cover these things. 

As for next season, I'm with the other comments here who think June will not have to be on the lam for murder.  Unless the handmaids all talk, no one should know.  I think Truello didn't know June & Nick's plan, and I think Nick can simply tell Gilead that Fred resisted, tried to run and was killed.  Or jumped over the bridge and drowned.  I really don't know what they should do with June now.  As others have said, she's the least interesting character.  I'd be ok if she went on vacation to Hawaii for next season.  Or get her pregnant again and put her on bed rest.  Give us more Emily, more Moira, more Rita, more Janine, more Esther, more Joseph.  And, yeah, more Serena, too. 

 

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I don't understand why Lawrence made the deal. What did he want to get by getting Fred back by losing the 22 women? If he and the other commanders planned to put Fred on trial then Nick is in big trouble by losing him.  I don't get it.

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7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Looks like Nick dropped Fred back in Gilead, the former handmaids all had cars in that forest.  No crossing the border for them.

This is an error in geography. The prisoner exchange was on a bridge over a river where the border was delineated - US on one side and Canada on the other. For it to be a river border, this was in upstate NY.  For the handmaids to drive to the "no man's land" - they would have to drive from Toronto, into Quebec and then down into where ever no man's land is. Thats hours and hours of travel by car.

BUT the very concept of "no man's land" is completely at odds with the prior depiction of the land border being locked tight. If Vermont/New Hampshire HAS NO BORDER guards, why aren't more people crossing the border by just heading into "no man's land" where everyone can cross freely with no risk of being captured while murdering Gilead citizens

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3 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

This is an error in geography. The prisoner exchange was on a bridge over a river where the border was delineated - US on one side and Canada on the other. For it to be a river border, this was in upstate NY.  For the handmaids to drive to the "no man's land" - they would have to drive from Toronto, into Quebec and then down into where ever no man's land is. Thats hours and hours of travel by car.

BUT the very concept of "no man's land" is completely at odds with the prior depiction of the land border being locked tight. If Vermont/New Hampshire HAS NO BORDER guards, why aren't more people crossing the border by just heading into "no man's land" where everyone can cross freely with no risk of being captured while murdering Gilead citizens

Fred was in a closed up van, they could have crossed the river again.

He even says "Are we even in Gilead anymore?" or words to that effect when he's let out.

Edited by Umbelina
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16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

 

All of the flashbacks were so needed in this episode, to remind us of just how vile Fred, and Gilead is, and how many seemingly "little" things June and other handmaids and Jezebel's had to put up with.  That "Don't bite!" segment?  Imagine how many times June and others had to tell themselves that?  It made everything so real.

I actually felt the opposite, that the flashbacks were completely unnecessary and that they just served as a reminder that Bad Things happened in Gilead, even when they were packaged as Good Things. They went on far too long and I didn't need the reminder of how June & Co. had to go along with that shit. To me it felt like they were saying, 'See? Remember how horrible Fred is, remember! We're showing you this so that you're not confused and accidentally feel sympathetic for him when the ladies are ripping off his appendages.' 

I don't like it when shows and movies talk down to their audience and that's what it felt like. To me. 

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7 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I actually felt the opposite, that the flashbacks were completely unnecessary and that they just served as a reminder that Bad Things happened in Gilead, even when they were packaged as Good Things. They went on far too long and I didn't need the reminder of how June & Co. had to go along with that shit. To me it felt like they were saying, 'See? Remember how horrible Fred is, remember! We're showing you this so that you're not confused and accidentally feel sympathetic for him when the ladies are ripping off his appendages.' 

I don't like it when shows and movies talk down to their audience and that's what it felt like. To me. 

Shows always recap for those just tuning in.

I appreciated that these were almost all new scenes.

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Nick was so hot this episode.

12 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Can someone debrief on that image of the hanging corpse at the end?:

  • I presume it was Fred, but where?
  • Why was it wearing a white jacket/coat?
  • What was the source of the Latin inscription ("Don't let the bastards get you down"?) below the body?
  • What was the inscription's significance? Was it what June saw on that closet wall a few seasons ago?

holy shit!  I didn't even see this in my version?

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10 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

Can't wait for Serena to get what's coming to her, especially after the way she was speaking to Tuello. Lady, you and your husband are in jail for war crimes...that you actually committed and admit to! Bitch, you don't get to demand shit from anyone. 

giphy.gif

Oh my god I know...... I start talking back to the screen.  UGHHHHHHH

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4 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

Keep waiting on that Zoom Serena…

I'm sure she'll treasure her husband's wedding ring.

Big Brother Reaction GIF by MOODMAN

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13 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

holy shit!  I didn't even see this in my version?

It was blink and you miss it. There was an abandoned stone wall with a body, clearly Fred, hanging from the wall, and his face was covered. There were latin words that meant "dont let the bastards grind you down" from season one spraypainted on the wall.

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2 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

It was blink and you miss it. There was an abandoned stone wall with a body, clearly Fred, hanging from the wall, and his face was covered. There were latin words that meant "dont let the bastards grind you down" from season one spraypainted on the wall.

Thank you very much.  It's airing again at 4 AM and I'm taping it!

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I thought this was dumb. I'm happy that Fred didn't get to just walk, but Gilead used to feel dangerous, and now it feels like anyone billed high enough in the credits can pretty much do whatever. It's annoying from a story-telling perspective, but it also kind of makes light of what totalitarian states are like, and how hard they are to deal with in real life.

23 hours ago, Penman61 said:

”Sure, Fred. We can Zoom.”

This is my favourite line of dialogue in the series. Yvonne Strahovski didn't really get anything to do this season, which bums me out because she gives my favourite performance on this show -- her line reading of stuff like is amazing.

15 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

A point where I am genuinely unclear is why this was a deal breaker for Luke. I can think of several reasons, myself, but we've never hear from Luke at all and I don't see why June's assumption was that she'd have to get the fuck out.

In retrospect, I think they did a sloppy job of setting this up as a Defining Choice between either going down the rabbit hole of vengeance, where June accepts that she's not the same person anymore and pursues violence against Gilead VS trying to heal and become her old self and make a family with Luke. I think the significance of this moment is supposed to be that they both realize she chose the option that's not her family.

7 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

I’m sure Luke wishes June had more of Moira’s attitude - it’s over, we’ve escaped and let’s try to move on. But June went though a lot more in Gilead and is a different person. And without people like her, Gilead will never fall. She didn’t choose to be the person she became, but there she is. Maybe she’s more like her mother than she ever thought.

Luke and Moira have been supporting each other for a while, and seem to share the mindset that you have to be grateful for whatever victories you can get and not get bogged down in the sadness. That's a valid POV, but it's also valid for June to not want to do that. So I kind of liked this dialogue, since it showed how far apart they are in their vision for what healthy coping looks like.

6 hours ago, ReganX said:

I'm assuming that Lawrence, Nick and a small number of Eyes that Nick trusts (or has excellent blackmail material on) were the only ones to know of the swap and that it was not officially sanctioned, otherwise staying in Gilead would be suicide for Lawrence and Nick.

Lawrence pretty much had to have authorization to trade 20 prisoners for Fred, so the only way I can think of where he and Nick would be okay after this is if Nick were authorized to kill Fred and the higher-ups didn't care how it happened. However, displaying his body like that kind of goes against that narrative, since, if Gilead wanted to get rid of Fred quietly, posting him on a wall isn't quiet -- and, if they wanted to get rid of him noisily, they wouldn't let Nick just do it; they'd have a trial or something.

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Sure, the execution (of the execution, heh) was a little ridiculous, but I can let it go because it was high time for Fred to exit stage left. THT has never been meant to be a fully realistic show in the way that events are executed (including executions, heh) - it's highly stylized and not a little fairy-taleish. June blowing a whistle and the other former handmaids appearing like a pack of wolves, in the woods, was totally fitting.

I would not have found a trial for Fred in Gilead satisfying, because while Gilead would have hung him on the wall, they would have done so for the wrong things, since Gileadean morality is topsy-turvy, where it's A-OK to rape your handmaid but not to have consensual sex with your wife because it won't result in a baby.

I wanted to see Serena's reaction to Fred's death, but I can understand why it's being saved for next season, since it should kick off a new arc for her. I think ultimately this is helpful for her in the sense that now she's entirely free to paint Fred any way she wants, blame anything and everything she did on him, and he's not there to contradict her. I don't see a pairing with Tuello, though, not in a real way. He is manipulating her. Even if he should decide to seduce her, it would be for manipulative purposes.

I don't see where June would be in any trouble for this at all. Tuello, the ICC, the American and Canadian governments - they all knew handing Fred back to Gilead meant his death. And Gilead was going to kill him. From all of their POVs, it makes no difference that June was the one to do it.

As for June's own loved ones? Well, obviously Emily goaded June onwards - that's a point I haven't seen made yet, but Emily had that moment where she told June that whatever Gilead did to Fred would not be enough. Moira's not gonna be happy, but she loves June. And Luke? Well, obviously June is expecting him to react a certain way. But, just as Luke does not truly know what June has been through, neither does June know what Luke has been through - and I'm not saying he's been through the same level of shit as she has, but he has been through shit. This is a man who punched Fred and was starting to beat him up, might have beaten him to death if nobody had been there to intervene. He understands rage and vengeance. Don't forget he's had Moira around, no doubt talking to him all this time about what is the right/best way to heal, etc. He's been trying to do what seems best for June, Moira's view of that. Just saying, I would not assume that June's assumption of Luke in their final moment in this episode is the correct one. He knows she's not the same as she was, but she hasn't really had the bandwidth to recognize that he isn't the same as he was either. Give the man a minute to process and to hear the story, and, well, he may not react like she thinks.

And honestly, to some degree I think she wants to make the assumption she does, because then it's much simpler for her: Nick over Luke, and she doesn't have to feel like she actively chose the Gilead guy over her husband, because her marriage fell apart on its own. But, again, Luke isn't the man she knew before, and second, the show is still sitting on whatever it is that Nick did that brought Gilead into existence and thus makes him one of the people responsible for everything that happened to June the last seven years. My guess is that she'll be a little less starry-eyed about Nick whenever she finds that out - and it's very telling that she hasn't made a serious effort to find out. It indicates that she's worried it's something she cannot forgive, and Nick was one of her few joys in Gilead. I did love them kissing in front of Fred - I don't think that was romanticism on June's part, though, I think she wanted Fred to see how deeply he was screwed and had no hope from that particular quarter (the guy he kept frantically calling "son" in an effort to manipulate Nick).

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3 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I didn't see it that way at all. My grandparents were Holocaust survivors and they were big on "counting their blessings," especially my paternal grandmother, who was in a labor camp for several years. Luke was trying to get June to appreciate how unlikely it was that she not only got out alive, but was also able to reunite with one of her children. From his perspective, he waited for years without much hope of ever seeing her again. Her arrival in Canada was his biggest dream come true, and he doesn't understand why it wasn't also hers. Obviously he doesn't understand everything she went through and never will, but I can't blame him for feeling the way he does.

The wifi is apparently not fast enough for Serena, now that she's getting so many media requests.

It's one thing for the person who's lived through the hell to decide to count their blessings. It's mind numbingly presumptuous for somebody, who didn't experience it, to tell someone who did, to count their blessings. Yes, it's reasonable for June's husband to remind her that she's regained a life that is worth protecting, and thus to be cognizant of that when choosing a course of action. He sure chose a dimwitted way to convey that idea, however.

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Was Elizabeth Moss pregnant?  She wore a coat in nearly  every scene, and looked pretty puffy.  She's back to looking normal now.  

Edited by Hathaway
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1) Would it have made a difference if Fred had asked for asylum in Canada?

2) What made me really mad about this episode was that Gilead won. The lynchmob of former handmaids did all of Gilead’s dirty work for them, just like a they would have if they had never left.  Did Fred deserve nothing but bad things?  Yes, and Gilead should have done it themselves.  

Edited by revbfc
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I'd love it if they'd peace June out now and send her to Alaska or Hawaii. Then the show could be Janine centric yet still be The Handmaid's Tale.

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4 hours ago, Bannon said:

It's one thing for the person who's lived through the hell to decide to count their blessings. It's mind numbingly presumptuous for somebody, who didn't experience it, to tell someone who did, to count their blessings.

I get this a lot in the child loss community. After my youngest died people would tell me to count my blessings and be grateful that I still had my oldest. Feelings are valid and it takes time to work through and manage trauma. It's entirely possible to be angry and grief stricken over one thing while also feeling grateful over something else. The toxic positivity masquerading as "support" is what drove me to thinking of creative ways to kill myself at the time. 

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I thought that there were interesting past/present connections in the episode, and even a little bit of going back to the original book in some dialogues. 

The director was excellent. The way everything was shot was really beautiful. Good eye.

I can't with the writers though. Even if they make June cry and be angry then cry again and then be furious, they are not working the character very well. All the other survivors/refugees are in therapy, but June hasn't really dealt with her own feelings, in private (or in therapy). I get that she doesn't want to , but I would like to see more internal conflict, not only when she is facing her abusers. Yes, they might get to this at a later time but they are writing her as the same super hero she "had" to be in Gilead, the savior of all. I would imagine that seeing her daughter again would give her some softness but she doesn't seem to care that much for Nichole - she is inconsistent.

And the way they made her so special is ridiculous. She might be a celebrity and the face of the resistance but in the inner works of governments she wouldn't have so much leverage to arrange clandestine meetings and negotiate the exchange of prisoners/assets. She has become more important than a secretary of State, and she is all the  secret agencies combined in one person.

I didn't like the way they killed Fred. I can understand the anger and it is even justified but the way it happened is just vengeance, which goes against anything those women were working on in therapy - for better or for worse. Which brings me back to June destroying lives, yet again. Attacking Fred was June's revenge, as far as we know. Instead, it became an organized mob planning a lynching. Gilead won, then. It broke the women, and they are beyond repair - with all the therapy they are having, they still become cold blooded killers (it was planned and no one backed down). I would give the writers more credit if they had organized Junes revenge with the women as audience, or to chase and terrorize him. Then June would do whatever she wanted. But the moment would trigger the trauma and the women would lose control and kill him as an out of control, traumatized people. Collective hysteria.

The conclusion is the same as every season - June makes people do terrible things for her, because of her, and many die or have their lives forever damaged for that. But of course, they will all feel better in the end because they did it for June. Fred might deserve it, but imagine how a person working on trauma would feel after being part of a lynching mob. If they don't feel anything, they are lost and become psychopaths.

Then again, as suggested, maybe Fred is not dead and June was the one who stopped her mob at the last minute and saved him. Anything goes with these writers.

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When June was negotiating (helping negotiate?) the Fred for handmaids exchange why didn’t she ask for Hannah too? At least throw it out there? 

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32 minutes ago, toomuchtv said:

When June was negotiating (helping negotiate?) the Fred for handmaids exchange why didn’t she ask for Hannah too? At least throw it out there? 

The writers need to keep the drama for next season. 

The Testaments spoiler:

Spoiler

And if they are going to use the book for another series they need Hannah to stay in Gilead

 

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I can see one of the wealthy Fred supporters (a Fredhead? Or should it be DeadFredhead?) putting a fatwa out on June, forcing her to go on the run. Perhaps to Colorado Springs where Hannah is in captivity? Funded by one of HER wealthy supporters (a Junebug? a Juneloon?)?

Edited by TimWil
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3 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I get this a lot in the child loss community. After my youngest died people would tell me to count my blessings and be grateful that I still had my oldest. Feelings are valid and it takes time to work through and manage trauma. It's entirely possible to be angry and grief stricken over one thing while also feeling grateful over something else. The toxic positivity masquerading as "support" is what drove me to thinking of creative ways to kill myself at the time. 

I'm sorry you experienced that. God save from the numbskulls and A-holes who think they have enough knowledge to advise another suffering person to count their blessings.

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I dislike mob violence, no matter how justified it may be. I would have preferred for June to have blown her whistle, for the women to have assembled and then Fred run. We could have seen him hanging on the wall and filled in the blanks ourselves. 

The timeline of this show is always so fuzzy. I don't know how long June has been back (and as a poster mentioned, Nicole should be at least a toddler by now). I think the end was supposed to signify that there was no way June was going to settle into life with Luke in Canada. Like Lawrence said, revenge on Fred will never be enough. 

They really do need to get back to Gilead. It's a truly fucked up place, but that is definitely where the story is. 

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59 minutes ago, jackjill89 said:

They really do need to get back to Gilead. It's a truly fucked up place, but that is definitely where the story is. 

I agree, Gilead is where the story is.  Ideally, Season 5 would spend 70% of time in Gilead and 30% in Canada. 

I don't want June going back to Gilead, keep all the characters where they are for now.  Refocus the Gilead story on Jeanine, Esther and Lydia, with a sprinkling of Lawrence.  Show us more Mayday/resistance.  And then loop in Canada to show what's happening with Serena as well as the resistance group up there.  Let June keep the finding Hannah plot line, but don't let that dominate - it should be a B plot or C plot.  And take away the sat phones or whatever it is that allows June to so easily call Lawrence and Nick, so that stops being the convenient go-to move. 

 

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19 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Honestly, isn’t Luke like MOST people in these situations? How many of us actually stand up and fight? This particular time in the country’s history is a great example of that, IMO.

If Luke was more of an 'action man' he and June would have gotten the hell out dodge (Boston) when there was first inkling of trouble with the government.  They waited too long (as many did IMHO) and got caught trying to cross the boarder.

My thoughts are about Serena. She's really caught between a rock and hard place. She knows if she keeps playing the part of Gilead wife they could very well ship her back to Gilead and she will lose her kid and either be made a Handmaid or shipped to the colonies (my preference is handmaid).  She still is guilty for her part in war crimes (home land terrorism, coup of the government) and the rape of June Osborn. Now that Fred is gone, regardless of their small "popularity" her real option is to co-operate with the US and Canadian governments and sing like a song bird about all she knows (because she too would know alot of things about the inside of Gilead. The woman isn't stupid). 

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