S04.E08: Testimony

[KillBill]

The pro-gilead crowd just didn't make sense to me. Why would they even be living in Canada if they're for the cause. I would think all Canadians and refugees would hate everything Gilead stands for. Does the commander really believe an increases birth rate over shadows all the violence and torture? How could he plead not guilty after that statement? Serena didn't seem convinced and i sensed she might betray him but then she saw the crowd and her attitude completely changed.

I wish we would have seen how Janine got captured instead of scenes of aunt lydia acting out again 🙄. 

June's behaviour with the group is concerning and i feel like she'll get someone killed eventually. The lie she told about Janine's son might come back to bite her. Maybe it could affect the trial somehow if Janine betrays her. 

[Quilt Fairy]

Hey, Canada, y'all need to get some more lightbulbs.  All those people walking around in the dark.  Alternately, Elizabeth Moss needs to learn that she has a lighting director. 

[greekmom]

So, saw the whole episode. Won't get into much of the courtroom as I had touched on it earlier.

I would say June's first posting had to be 2015. So maybe her capture was in 2013/2014? I wonder what went on in her first posting that she doesn't resent that Commander and wife as much as the Waterfords. I know the Waterfords took it way past the line but still. She doesn't mention the rapes in that household.  I know it has no bearing in this court case, but she never has said a word.

I don't understand Lawrence's deal. Is he for Gilead? And why when he's seen it doesn't work?

I loved the way June laid into Aunt Irene. She deserved it. I wonder why she left if being an Aunt was so great. Plus, I wonder how the Aunt scored a cushy property outside of the city.  Damn you know how much shit costs in the GTA and the outskirts? We got people moving to my city which is an hour west of Toronto and it's driving up the prices.

Fuck you Aunt Lydia telling Janine a shit load of lies. The wall is too good for Lydia. She deserves the colonies.

I don't buy the bullshit supporters of the Waterfords. I think it was the lawyer who put them up to it to gain support for Fred. I mean we have our crazies here in Canada too (just check out the anti maskers protests). But I cannot believe even with the proof of the letters and statements from actual women and men of the torture, the crimes in Gilead, that there are still supporters of the Waterfords. If they are true supporters, ship them off to Gilead. They need more Handmaids.

 

[circumvent]

11 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

And June needs to hear no, and "yes we get you're damaged from Gilead but society has rules". Sure its lovely to note how June is free to do as she pleases and say no to medical care simply because she can, but even non Gilead societies have rules. However awful Irene was in Gilead, Irene chose to leave rather than continue to wield a tazar against "disobeying" Handmaids. That little display was not "June deeply concerned about Emily" at all, that was June spitting her rage at a target that never harmed her, and not really caring whether it helped Emily or not. If Tuello wants a viable witness at the upcoming trial and not someone well known for vile behavior, he needs to sit June down and insist on private therepy  - where June can't be overheard by the public and possible Gilead spies, the security was ridiculous - so that June isn't known by the public for acting like a feral animal. To be fair, one thing I did like about her performance here is that she's acting like she's still in Gilead, complete with being just about completely shut down about talking to others because she can't trust them, but there's a huge trial coming and she needs better help than cut rate group therepy in a public library.

Yes, this. 

June does not have PTSD, like Emily does, and like the other refugees might have. She is full blown sociopath. Sociopathy is something people can learn to manage, but she needs to want that. Instead, she is going in the opposite direction. She also revealed private information about Emily just because she is June and she can tell whatever she wants about other people, and claim she is doing this for their own good. She is creating a cult. The result will be the same as Gilead: people will die because of her. First one, the former Aunt.

The crowd cheering Fred and Serena should be kettled and shipped off to Gilead. The whole jail/hotel no guards, do whatever they want story is getting too cartoonish. 

[Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, circumvent said:

Yes, this. 

June does not have PTSD, like Emily does, and like the other refugees might have. She is full blown sociopath. Sociopathy is something people can learn to manage, but she needs to want that. Instead, she is going in the opposite direction. She also revealed private information about Emily just because she is June and she can tell whatever she wants about other people, and claim she is doing this for their own good. She is creating a cult. The result will be the same as Gilead: people will die because of her. First one, the former Aunt.

The crowd cheering Fred and Serena should be kettled and shipped off to Gilead. The whole jail/hotel no guards, do whatever they want story is getting too cartoonish. 

PTSD can manifest in very different ways in different people. I think June is absolutely suffering from PTSD and is not a sociopath. I say this as someone with a mental health related degree. But YMMV.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

PTSD can manifest in very different ways in different people. I think June is absolutely suffering from PTSD and is not a sociopath. I say this as someone with a mental health related degree. But YMMV.

I agree.

Maybe because it was just memorial day, but I keep thinking of Medal of Honor winners, the majority of them died.  Even those that lived though?  That risked their lives, and did incredibly heroic things, putting their own lives in jeopardy?  I don't think they are sociopaths, they were fighting for things and for people they believed in.

Would anyone willing to die to restore/retake their country, in this case, the USA, be sociopaths?  

One person's freedom fighter is the other side's terrorist.  June is both, depending on the person viewing her.

[EllaWycliffe]

5 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

PTSD can manifest in very different ways in different people. I think June is absolutely suffering from PTSD and is not a sociopath. I say this as someone with a mental health related degree. But YMMV.

I agree and here's where I would cite June showing some empathy etc that she wouldnt if she was a sociopath. She's worried about Hannah and repeatedly struggles with leaving her behind and explaining to Luke why - a sociopath wouldnt care.

Here's how a sociopath acts. See how Serena was all about possession of Nicole? And no longer cares now that she has her own baby? Discarding one child for another without emotion is kinda sociopathic.

[Bannon]

June is certainly not a sociopath, not even close. She fully capable of feeling remorse and regret. She has genuine empathy when others are in pain. Sociopaths don't have those reactions.

[Cinnabon]

Here’s a good source for understanding the link between anger and PTSD

https://www.ptsd.va.gov/understand/related/anger.asp

 

Anger and Trauma

Anger is often a large part of a survivor's response to trauma. It is a core piece of the survival response in human beings. Anger helps us cope with life's stresses by giving us energy to keep going in the face of trouble or blocks. Yet anger can create major problems in the personal lives of those who have experienced trauma and those who suffer from PTSD.

 

[circumvent]

10 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

PTSD can manifest in very different ways in different people

True, but PTSD rage is an outburst, it gets triggered by something, a memory, a noise, an exterior factor. PTSD can cause depression, anxiety. June is not showing any of these symptoms. She is calculating, she is planning, she is acting exactly like she did in Gilead, not at all concerned about how other people feel, at least not when she has a plan that she needs to follow. That's what sociopaths do. They are narcissists who can display compassion but only when it does not interfere with their plans. Everyone else is collateral damage. Her defiance when Moira ended the session was typical getting back at a friend because things started to go in a different way from what she had planned. She wanted to keep plotting, nothing would stop her. It was her ego talking. She is feeding on people's rage and feeding them back with more rage. She is recruiting followers, she is not trying to heal, she is not even allowing others to do their own work, she is dictating how things need to be now that she is in Canada. Healing doesn't have to mean absence of anger. But she wants the other refugees to feel the same anger as she does. Therefore, a cult.

[circumvent]

12 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

June showing some empathy etc that she wouldnt if she was a sociopath

That would be a psychopath. Sociopaths do have a conscience, they do feel remorse. Psychopathy isn't even considered a mental illness by  a majority of psychiatrists because there is nothing to work with, since they never acknowledge that they are harming others. Not the same as sociopathy. 

[EllaWycliffe]

7 minutes ago, circumvent said:

June is not showing any of these symptoms. She is calculating, she is planning, she is acting exactly like she did in Gilead, not at all concerned about how other people feel, at least not when she has a plan that she needs to follow.

Actually behaving like she's still in Gilead is a PTSD manifestation. She's definetely messed up but you don't develope sociopathy as an adult. She was a reasonably caring, empathetic human being before Gilead. 

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, circumvent said:

True, but PTSD rage is an outburst, it gets triggered by something, a memory, a noise, an exterior factor. PTSD can cause depression, anxiety. June is not showing any of these symptoms. She is calculating, she is planning, she is acting exactly like she did in Gilead, not at all concerned about how other people feel, at least not when she has a plan that she needs to follow. That's what sociopaths do. They are narcissists who can display compassion but only when it does not interfere with their plans. Everyone else is collateral damage. Her defiance when Moira ended the session was typical getting back at a friend because things started to go in a different way from what she had planned. She wanted to keep plotting, nothing would stop her. It was her ego talking. She is feeding on people's rage and feeding them back with more rage. She is recruiting followers, she is not trying to heal, she is not even allowing others to do their own work, she is dictating how things need to be now that she is in Canada. Healing doesn't have to mean absence of anger. But she wants the other refugees to feel the same anger as she does. Therefore, a cult.

Really disagree. She was triggered by the grocery store visit, by memories of Loaves and Fishes. Narcissists don't try to explain to their distant husband, via smuggled audiotape, why they have had sex with another man. Being strong willed, even self centered, is not sociopathy.

[circumvent]

2 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

She's definetely messed up but you don't develope sociopathy as an adult. She was a reasonably caring, empathetic human being before Gilead. 

That's not something anyone can say because nobody develops a psychiatric or psychological "condition" in a time frame, diagnosis is what sheds light on things. I do know at least one adult (young Canadian) who was diagnosed two years ago as a sociopath and I would never, ever guess. But I am not with him all the time either.

[Bannon]

16 minutes ago, circumvent said:

That would be a psychopath. Sociopaths do have a conscience, they do feel remorse. Psychopathy isn't even considered a mental illness by  a majority of psychiatrists because there is nothing to work with, since they never acknowledge that they are harming others. Not the same as sociopathy. 

"Antisocial personality disorder, sometimes called sociopathy, is a mental disorder in which a person consistently shows no regard for right and wrong and ignores the rights and feelings of others. People with antisocial personality disorder tend to antagonize, manipulate or treat others harshly or with callous indifference. They show no guilt or remorse for their behavior."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20353928

[Umbelina]

While I do think a part of June was recruiting during the group therapy scene?  She was doing more than that, she was letting them be real.  She didn't order anyone around.  She simply said she was going to stay, and others, on their own, decided to stay with her.

As for Emily?  June knows Emily better than anyone in that room, most certainly better than Moira.  Emily has been a little scared mouse during all of her therapy and help in Canada, yes, she can relate to her son now, but she and her wife are still having issues.  

Was it because, until now, no one let her rage?  She has every reason to be enraged, and she did when she stole that car and ran over the soldier, when she tried to beat Lydia to death, and when she killed that random wife at the colonies.  If anyone inspired the other one?  It was Emily inspiring June.

Does that make her a sociopath or psychopath too?  Is anyone who has been tortured and raped and forced to tear human beings apart or hang them not entitled to have rage about that?  

Is it "getting even" or is it justice, and further, is taking down every single one of those people participating in that system not a righteous goal?  What about freeing the others still there, or wanting your country, your home back?  Is something inherently evil or nuts about that?

I don't think so, and I don't think it's wrong to fight injustice.  

Edited June 3, 2021 by Umbelina
added stuff

[circumvent]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Really disagree. She was triggered by the grocery store visit, by memories of Loaves and Fishes. Narcissists don't try to explain to their distant husband, via smuggled audiotape, why they have had sex with another man. Being strong willed, even self centered, is not sociopathy.

I did mentioned all this in my comment. Using people she claims to care about, not concerning with their feelings or how they want to disclose a private matter (like she did with Emily) is narcissism 101. I concede that the writing has been too flawed and if we try to diagnose June from episode one she will be all over the place. This episode though, she was all manipulation when it came to whatever plan she has for Gilead. She was trying to manipulate Luke, she turned around to be caring. I lived that, the empathy and the cold periods, including being completely ignored. That's how I can assure you that sociopaths can show compassion and be extremely caring at times.

[Cinnabon]

29 minutes ago, circumvent said:

True, but PTSD rage is an outburst, it gets triggered by something, a memory, a noise, an exterior factor. PTSD can cause depression, anxiety. June is not showing any of these symptoms. She is calculating, she is planning, she is acting exactly like she did in Gilead, not at all concerned about how other people feel, at least not when she has a plan that she needs to follow. That's what sociopaths do. They are narcissists who can display compassion but only when it does not interfere with their plans. Everyone else is collateral damage. Her defiance when Moira ended the session was typical getting back at a friend because things started to go in a different way from what she had planned. She wanted to keep plotting, nothing would stop her. It was her ego talking. She is feeding on people's rage and feeding them back with more rage. She is recruiting followers, she is not trying to heal, she is not even allowing others to do their own work, she is dictating how things need to be now that she is in Canada. Healing doesn't have to mean absence of anger. But she wants the other refugees to feel the same anger as she does. Therefore, a cult.

JUNE literally just escaped Gilead, a few days ago. Please click the link I provided above, it’s s short page that describes PTSD in trauma survivors. She is not a sociopath. She is overbearing and selfish at times right now, but if she doesn’t keep working to bring down Gilead, who will? If everyone sat quietly and only journaled about their experiences, nothing would ever change. War is hell.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, circumvent said:

I did mentioned all this in my comment. Using people she claims to care about, not concerning with their feelings or how they want to disclose a private matter (like she did with Emily) is narcissism 101. I concede that the writing has been too flawed and if we try to diagnose June from episode one she will be all over the place. This episode though, she was all manipulation when it came to whatever plan she has for Gilead. She was trying to manipulate Luke, she turned around to be caring. I lived that, the empathy and the cold periods, including being completely ignored. That's how I can assure you that sociopaths can show compassion and be extremely caring at times.

Being manipulative is not in and of itself sociopathy. June has demonstrated genuine remorse, regret, empathy, and concern for others several times. She's not a sociopath, not even close. It's ok if we disagree.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, KillBill said:

The pro-gilead crowd just didn't make sense to me. Why would they even be living in Canada if they're for the cause.

I was thinking the same. If they agree with the Gilead way of life, why are they in Canada?

[Umbelina]

Thinking more about Emily and June in that group therapy scene, and in the past.

The reality was Emily joined Mayday first.  Emily has always been a fighter.  When June was meek and scared and just talking to herself?  Emily acted.  She's ALWAYS acted, she's always done things.

I said it kind of, earlier, but if anything June was inspired by Emily, all along.  She's seen Emily fight when others didn't.  

She brought that Aunt into the group (no, not anyone could walk in, June brought her in) because she knows Emily in her bones, and she knew what Emily needed to snap out of her current self and back to who she really was before Gilead.  Remember when June asked her if she was teaching again?  Nope, Emily was too scared to even do that.

Emily was a hero to June, the first one to resist, she inspired June resisting, and now, after all that journaling and talking, she was a timid little broken thing.  She wasn't the in charge professor, or the defiant handmaid that joined Mayday, or even able to sleep in the same bed with her wife.  

In the end, June was correct.  Emily is back.  Strong, confident Emily is finally back.

[circumvent]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

"Antisocial personality disorder, sometimes called sociopathy, is a mental disorder in which a person consistently shows no regard for right and wrong and ignores the rights and feelings of others. People with antisocial personality disorder tend to antagonize, manipulate or treat others harshly or with callous indifference. They show no guilt or remorse for their behavior."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20353928

Antisocial Personality Disorder is what the DSM-5 uses INSTEAD of sociopathy and psychopathy, but it is not the definition of sociopathy. It is done this way on purpose because of the difficulty in diagnosing people as either of them so officially, this article is extrapolating on what the manual says, which makes it not completely accurate

Here is a different quote, a little more nuanced:

"A key difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is whether he has a conscience, the little voice inside that lets us know when we’re doing something wrong, says L. Michael Tompkins, EdD. He's a psychologist at the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center.

A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. He may observe others and then act the way they do so he’s not “found out,” Tompkins says.

A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak. They may know that taking your money is wrong, and they might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop their behavior."

[SourK]

My favourite part was when Lawrence said June was good at getting people to like her, LMAO.

My least favourite part was the weird focus during the group therapy scenes -- like, literally the camera focus. What was up with that?

21 hours ago, chocolatine said:

It was jarring to see a group of protesters cheer for Fred and Serena, but I guess it makes sense that both US and Canada have/had ultra-conservative crowds, with the one in Canada being a minority. Still, it makes me question how "safe" the Gilead refugees are in Canada, to the extent that anyone is safe anywhere in that world. It was ironic that women were holding up written signs in support of Serena, since neither they nor Serena are allowed to read or write in Gilead.

I wonder if, in the original script, Fred and especially Serena got to say more. Because, based on what we saw in the weird, weird hearing, I don't understand how it would inspire such a passionate following.

21 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

However June's manipulation of the group therepy circle was just... exactly why Moira probably shouldn't be leading others in therepy or at least not leading a group filled with her personal friends. It also felt ham handed and weird - if Irene was able to track Emily down, why go to her therepy circle when finding her home address wouldn't be that much of a reach? I think Emily's reaction about the death was honest and fair but Moira was right that the whole "I wanna cut off his dick" talk isn't healthy.

I thought it was kind of funny that June ruined Moira's healing group by turning it into a vengeance group, but I 100% agree. Moira doesn't seem like the best person to facilitate this. Also, FWIW, I agree with the sentiment that justice is more helpful to abuse survivors than "moving on" but, in the long run, it's usually not that simple. Even though it might feel supportive to really, really dwell on the anger and constantly talk about it and agree with each other about how angry they are, that kind of thing can stop you from healing over time.

21 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I'm just going to be honest - I love Anne Dowd but Lydia is becoming unwatchable. She's back on the job for five minutes and tazers a fellow Aunt basically because she's pissed the woman might have been gossipping?

 

That was also a really funny moment to me. Lydia's in the room for literally less than five minutes, everyone else is pretty chill, and then we just get this wide shot where she's standing over all the bodies of her victims. Like, Lydia's gonna Lydia.

20 hours ago, AllyB said:

I'm mainly thinking about the giant plothole that is June standing up at the hearing, which all the Gilead commanders will be keeping a close eye on, and openly stating that Lawrence disobeyed the laws of Gilead. Sure he's the commander that gets to sit in the middle of the table now but the other commanders, who will resent that as he got there by blackmail, now have grounds to have him right up on the wall.

I agree with this. In general, I thought her testimony was really unfocused and seemed to exist mostly to recap the situation for the audience rather than convince the judge that Fred should be on trial. But, even on top of that, if she has no ill will toward Lawrence, why throw him under the bus like that? You're telling Gilead that he's disloyal.

If the story about the Waterfords making him rape her was super important to the case, surely there were privileged ways to enter that into evidence without saying it in front of reporters.

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The issues with June and Luke are so complex that I don't know where to begin. I was solidly with Moira when she told him that he didn't understand what June had been through. His reply ("Maybe that's the problem") made me really anxious. I get that he is June's husband and that he wants to move forward, which will require work on both their parts. But I am also firmly of the belief that an assault victim never needs to talk about their trauma unless they want to do so.

This is complicated by the fact that June was chomping at the bit to testify against the Waterfords, but I understand her desire to make them pay for what they did to her as a drop in the bucket for what Gilead did to so many other women. The difference is that she was able to dispassionately describe a list of things that they had subjected her to. Luke, on the other hand, would no doubt want more than that. He would want to talk about the details and how she felt and I don't think that she's even close to ready for that.

I think it was a terrible idea for him to surprise her by showing up for the hearing. If nothing else, it was probably going to throw her off and make her more nervous before she did something really important. Also, apparently he could just read what she said later?

I think the show's missing an interesting opportunity to explore why June doesn't want the life she led in Gilead to intersect with her relationship with Luke -- and why she doesn't want the person she is now to intersect with the person she was before, and that he hopes she'll be again.

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I disliked that the show ended up making June right again. I don't think she should have ambushed Emily at therapy by bringing the aunt. It should have been Emily's choice whether to confront her or see her at all.

I also think that there's complexity to these situations. There are pressures on people in the middle of the Gilead hierarchy, too -- it's not just the people at the bottom who are victimized by this regime, and very few people got out of Gilead with completely clean hands -- something June should appreciate, especially, since she bullied that one handmaid to death last season.

It's fine if June doesn't see the nuances in the situation and turns everything into a black and white story about victims and victimizers, but I wish the show were pushing back on her worldview more.

6 hours ago, greekmom said:

Question. What exactly is Fred on trial for? Is he on trial for rape of June Osborn? For his part in the coup of the American government? For domestic terrorism? For crimes against women in Gilead in general?   

This isn't a formal trial but did they mention the specific charges?

When he was arrested last season, they read off a whole list of things he was charged with, and I don't remember what it was, but I think it included war crimes and rape. Maybe treason as well.

I'm actually confused that they're going to an international court, but I don't know how this stuff typically works. I guess maybe if people are acknowledging Gilead as a legitimate country, then they can't just extradite Fred to the USA? I don't know.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, circumvent said:

Antisocial Personality Disorder is what the DSM-5 uses INSTEAD of sociopathy and psychopathy, but it is not the definition of sociopathy. It is done this way on purpose because of the difficulty in diagnosing people as either of them so officially, this article is extrapolating on what the manual says, which makes it not completely accurate

Here is a different quote, a little more nuanced:

"A key difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is whether he has a conscience, the little voice inside that lets us know when we’re doing something wrong, says L. Michael Tompkins, EdD. He's a psychologist at the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center.

A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. He may observe others and then act the way they do so he’s not “found out,” Tompkins says.

A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak. They may know that taking your money is wrong, and they might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop their behavior."

It's seems we are arguing a semantic battle between the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center and The Mayo Clinic. Like I said, it's ok if we disagree.

[Emily Thrace]

13 hours ago, chediavolo said:

Not very nice to say  but aAlexis Bledel has really aged in an unexpected way in my opinion. I thought she was quite beautiful a lot of the time on Gilmore girls it’s just Little surprising that she hasn’t aged into her face all that nicely considering she is still youngish.

otherwise I am liking this season also. I hate that Waterford’s have any support at all. 

I can't believe we are having a discussion about a show involving mass rape and subjugation of women and you think it remotely okay to comment on the attractiveness of an actress as if it is her only value. Alexis Bledel gave an amazing performance in tonight's episode. That should be what matters. I don't understand how you can watch this show and still talk about the people in it like they are decorative dolls. 

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

It's seems we are arguing a semantic battle between the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center and The Mayo Clinic. Like I said, it's ok if we disagree.

And diagnoses are often very difficult to make. Therapists go to graduate school for a couple years, then must be supervised for at least  another 2 years, then must go on to pass a very difficult exam before they can receive their licenses and can legally see patients and give diagnoses. Reading some articles online does not make anyone an expert.

[circumvent]

7 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

but if she doesn’t keep working to bring down Gilead, who will?

And how is this not narcissism? She is the only one who can bring down Gilead? She is the only one who knows how. In her mind she is all "me,me,me" - narcissism.

9 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Being manipulative is not in and of itself sociopathy

Correct. As for the rest of your comment, I already gave my take.

 

6 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

May I ask if you have an education/degree in mental health? Because it can be quite complex and takes years of experience to be able to get certified and diagnose others. One does not simply become a sociopath after a prolonged trauma experience. They are sociopaths from childhood, and from what we’ve seen, June was not. She does seem to be acting out selfishly right now, and that’s completely understandable to me, but that behavior does not make her a narcissist.

My take in on June in this episode. You are right that people don't become sociopaths in an instant but sociopathy is related to trauma, nurture, even an extreme case of bullying. For example: sex abusers like pedophiles have, in many cases, been victims of pedophiles ("the abused becomes the abuser"). Rapists are sociopaths (some might even been psychopaths). Taking into account that we are discussing a TV show with very flawed writing, the way they wrote June in tis episode to me - made her very sociopathic.  My experience in not from formal education but from living, for several years, with a sociopath who to this day people still remember as a very caring, supportive person. While in the relationship, I didn't see how I was being manipulated and how my emotions were being played because the tender moments took care of it (the brain prefers nice stuff). Obviously, I am not comparing this person with how June is reacting, different situation,it is just a general assessment because of patterns.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, SourK said:

I agree with this. In general, I thought her testimony was really unfocused and seemed to exist mostly to recap the situation for the audience rather than convince the judge that Fred should be on trial. But, even on top of that, if she has no ill will toward Lawrence, why throw him under the bus like that? You're telling Gilead that he's disloyal.

If the story about the Waterfords making him rape her was super important to the case, surely there were privileged ways to enter that into evidence without saying it in front of reporters.

There was, June decided herself to confront him in person.  She's done being scared.

This is a pre-trial.

Waterford shouldn't have been allowed to speak at all during her testimony.

7 minutes ago, SourK said:

It's fine if June doesn't see the nuances in the situation and turns everything into a black and white story about victims and victimizers, but I wish the show were pushing back on her worldview more.

Good point.

I think things have become very black and white for June.  It's mostly centered on the existence of Gilead though.  She doesn't believe it should exist, and I think she'll do anything to make that happen.

For now, she's trying for what justice is available, against Fred, Serena, that Aunt.

9 minutes ago, SourK said:

I also think that there's complexity to these situations. There are pressures on people in the middle of the Gilead hierarchy, too -- it's not just the people at the bottom who are victimized by this regime, and very few people got out of Gilead with completely clean hands -- something June should appreciate, especially, since she bullied that one handmaid to death last season.

That handmaid inspired everything.

She took away Hannah, and during June's punishment kneeling vigil, June realized that it wasn't just about Hannah, it was about ALL of the kids.

Now, it's not just about the kids, but all of the people trapped in Gilead.  Without that snitch handmaid, and June realizing at the end how trapped she was too, June wouldn't be on this crusade now.

5 minutes ago, SourK said:

I think it was a terrible idea for him to surprise her by showing up for the hearing. If nothing else, it was probably going to throw her off and make her more nervous before she did something really important. Also, apparently he could just read what she said later?

I think the show's missing an interesting opportunity to explore why June doesn't want the life she led in Gilead to intersect with her relationship with Luke -- and why she doesn't want the person she is now to intersect with the person she was before, and that he hopes she'll be again.

I do too.  I won't repeat my earlier comments about this, but I do LOVE that they are making this complicated and intricate.  Will they heal?  Maybe not, both are trying, in their own, often clumsy, ways though.  

It's very possible too much has happened though.  We shall see.

 

[circumvent]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It's seems we are arguing a semantic battle between the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center and The Mayo Clinic.

Actually, as far as psychiatry goes, they follow the DSM-5 - which is far from perfect - but that's the manual that define disagnosis. So no, not the same as what you propose. The disagreeing part, yes, you are right.

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, SourK said:

I'm actually confused that they're going to an international court, but I don't know how this stuff typically works. I guess maybe if people are acknowledging Gilead as a legitimate country, then they can't just extradite Fred to the USA? I don't know.

Canada's in enough jeopardy from Gilead, this is a way to spread the blame around, and hopefully not get Canada attacked.  

That said, I kind of doubt it will work.  At best?  They probably deport them, which could be GREAT, let's have Gilead founders experience some Gilead justice.

[Umbelina]

The parts of this episode that fell apart for me (yes, I am watching again) are everything to do with Lydia and with Commander Lawrence.

None of it makes any real sense to me.

I get Lydia with her little pet she's abused for so long, Janine, but the rest of their stories?

WTF?

What is Lawrence's motivation now?  What the hell is Lydia's?  

I adored all the Canada scenes, but the disconnect with Lawrence/Lydia's actions is jarring.

[AntFTW]

8 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The issues with June and Luke are so complex that I don't know where to begin. I was solidly with Moira when she told him that he didn't understand what June had been through. His reply ("Maybe that's the problem") made me really anxious. I get that he is June's husband and that he wants to move forward, which will require work on both their parts. But I am also firmly of the belief that an assault victim never needs to talk about their trauma unless they want to do so.

Well, Luke’s response of “Maybe that's the problem” isn’t entirely wrong. He doesn’t know what June has been through, and because he doesn’t know what she’s been through, that means he doesn’t really know how to respond to her needs. It’s not solely about moving forward, getting over it, or getting back to how the old June and Luke dynamic used to be. He’s struggling with just simply being a support system for June.

Luke wants to be supportive but he doesn’t really know how because he has no input that would help him be a supportive partner, which puts him in a sort of limbo. June has her timeline if when she would be ready to talk about her experience with Luke but until that happens, it would be difficult for him to assess what her needs are. He’s not a mind reader.

Edited June 3, 2021 by AntFTW

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

The parts of this episode that fell apart for me (yes, I am watching again) are everything to do with Lydia and with Commander Lawrence.

None of it makes any real sense to me.

I get Lydia with her little pet she's abused for so long, Janine, but the rest of their stories?

WTF?

What is Lawrence's motivation now?  What the hell is Lydia's?  

I adored all the Canada scenes, but the disconnect with Lawrence/Lydia's actions is jarring.

I suspect Lawrence just wants to see Gilead prevail in the ongoing civil war, and see Gilead become more powerful, with him near the top of the pyramid. 

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Well, Luke’s response of “Maybe that's the problem” isn’t entirely wrong. He doesn’t know what June has been through, and because he doesn’t know what she’s been through, that means he doesn’t really know how to respond to her needs. It’s not solely about moving forward, getting over it, or getting back to how the old June and Luke dynamic used to be. He’s struggling with just simply being a support system for June.

Luke wants to be supportive but he doesn’t really know how because he has no input that would help him be a supportive partner, which puts him in a sort of limbo. June has her timeline if when she would be ready to talk about her experience with Luke but until that happens, it would be difficult for him to assess what her needs are. He’s not a mind reader.

Oh this post just reminded me of Luke's utter cluelessness.

When he said to June "Now that I know it all, we can move forward." or whatever the hell it was he said?

He knows a FRACTION,  and a tiny little FRACTION of what June's been through, and HE is "ready" to put it behind them?

Buy a vowel you Neanderthal  Seriously!~

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I suspect Lawrence just wants to see Gilead prevail in the ongoing civil war, and see Gilead become more powerful, with him near the top of the pyramid. 

That's not what he wanted before though, at all.  

Edited June 3, 2021 by Umbelina

[EllaWycliffe]

Just now, Umbelina said:

When he said to June "Now that I know it all, we can move forward." or whatever the hell it was he said?

He knows a FRACTION, and tiny little FRACTION of what June's been through, and HE is "ready" to put it behind them?

Buy a vowel you Neanderthal  Seriously!~

But she's not sharing either how is he supposed to know? Its complex.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, EllaWycliffe said:

But she's not sharing either how is he supposed to know? Its complex.

Any fool should know that it's more than that.  She was only testifying against Fred.

Luke's been around long enough to know there was also brutal, vicious training, and forced murders.

Also, HE doesn't get to put HER pain and devastation behind "them."  That's up to the victim, not him.

[EllaWycliffe]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Any fool should know that it's more than that.  She was only testifying against Fred.

Luke's been around long enough to know there was also brutal, vicious training, and forced murders.

Also, HE doesn't get to put HER pain and devastation behind "them."  That's up to the victim, not him.

He's not allowed any missteps? She's portraying herself as very well and he's not a psychologist. I'm willing to be patient. 

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

He's not allowed any missteps? She's portraying herself as very well and he's not a psychologist. I'm willing to be patient. 

I never said that.

I said that was completely idiotic.  Also, typical old Luke.  "whew, glad you got that off your chest, now can you be my happy little wife again?"

I appreciate the complexity they are showing in this relationship though. 

Luke has been involved with refugees for years now, he's heard the stories, implying that those brief words by June were her whole story was beyond selfish and insensitive.

Had he said, "maybe now we can talk more, I miss you so much, I'm so sorry for all you've been through, and I'm so very happy you are out of that horror."  Or any of the above?  Yes.  What he did say though, was horrible in the extreme. '

ETA

I would have walked out the door and never looked back.

I honestly thought June getting ready to tell him the rest of the story about Hannah was her revenge, but perhaps not.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Umbelina

[EllaWycliffe]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Luke has been involved with refugees for years now, he's heard the stories, implying that those brief words by June were her whole story was beyond selfish and insensitive.

There's a reason family members and friends aren't encouraged to help family professionally. While I think Luke can be an idiot, I am willing to grant him a little grace because its an incredibly awkward and painful situation and June is pretending to be better than she is. 

[AntFTW]

21 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

When he said to June "Now that I know it all, we can move forward." or whatever the hell it was he said?

Dang it! Now I gotta rewatch. I missed that.

[Bannon]

19 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh this post just reminded me of Luke's utter cluelessness.

When he said to June "Now that I know it all, we can move forward." or whatever the hell it was he said?

He knows a FRACTION,  and a tiny little FRACTION of what June's been through, and HE is "ready" to put it behind them?

Buy a vowel you Neanderthal  Seriously!~

That's not what he wanted before though, at all.  

He was a different person while his wife still lived. I suspect, with each day that passes without her influence, he becomes more unmoored from any ethical humanity. I suspect he has it in him to become a chronic rapist like other Commanders.

[Umbelina]

Also, that scene with Luke kind of relates to what Moira was doing in group.

All this talk about moving on, to people who aren't ready to MOVE ON the other person's way.

There are many ways to move on, and fighting back is one of those.

5 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Dang it! Now I gotta rewatch. I missed that.

Maybe it just hit a trigger in me, but yeah, I was thinking she might slap him!  Instead she hugged and comforted him, and then prepared to tell him her (and his) biggest horror story.

Revenge or what?    We shall see.  A review I like thought it was June opening up to him.  I thought it was her saying "Listen fool, you want pain?  Have some!"

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

He was a different person while his wife still lived. I suspect, with each day that passes without her influence, he becomes more unmoored from any ethical humanity. I suspect he has it in him to become a chronic rapist like other Commanders.

 He's certainly far less interesting now.  Yeah, survival is a motivator, and I liked him forcing Lydia to give him blackmail information earlier, but this episode?  He just didn't make sense to me.

It didn't make sense to me to have Lydia snap while just off probation either.  Maybe there will be payoff.

5 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

There's a reason family members and friends aren't encouraged to help family professionally. While I think Luke can be an idiot, I am willing to grant him a little grace because its an incredibly awkward and painful situation and June is pretending to be better than she is. 

I've said many kind things about Luke.  This isn't a choice between characters (to me anyway.)

This was a moment that showed his idiocy and selfishness.  

Edited June 3, 2021 by Umbelina
typo

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, EllaWycliffe said:

There's a reason family members and friends aren't encouraged to help family professionally. While I think Luke can be an idiot, I am willing to grant him a little grace because its an incredibly awkward and painful situation and June is pretending to be better than she is. 

Unless you've lived with a long term torture survivor, I suspect you have no idea what a struggle it is. Yeah, it's dumb for him to be speaking of "moving on". People, even very smart people, quite frequently do dumb stuff, especially when they have a highly emotional connection to what they are trying to understand. Like I said, the most likely outcome to a situation lije this is the dissolution of the marriage. It's extremely sad.

[Umbelina]

Just now, Bannon said:

Unless you've lived with a long term torture survivor, I suspect you have no idea what a struggle it is. Yeah, it's dumb for him to be speaking of "moving on". People, even very smart people, quite frequently do dumb stuff, especially when they have a highly emotional connection to what they are trying to understand. Like I said, the most likely outcome to a situation lije this is the dissolution of the marriage. It's extremely sad.

Luke's lived with them though, and worked with them at the center.

That mute woman who wouldn't speak?  Moira?  He knows Emily too.

It's not as if the dude has no experience with survivors of Gilead.

[EllaWycliffe]

Just now, Umbelina said:

Luke's lived with them though, and worked with them at the center.

That mute woman who wouldn't speak?  Moira?  He knows Emily too.

It's not as if the dude has no experience with survivors of Gilead.

Its different when it's your own. 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Also, that scene with Luke kind of relates to what Moira was doing in group.

All this talk about moving on, to people who aren't ready to MOVE ON the other person's way.

There are many ways to move on, and fighting back is one of those.

Maybe it just hit a trigger in me, but yeah, I was thinking she might slap him!  Instead she hugged and comforted him, and then prepared to tell him her (and his) biggest horror story.

Revenge or what?    We shall see.  A review I like thought it was June opening up to him.  I thought it was her saying "Listen fool, you want pain?  Have some!"

 He's certainly far less interesting now.  Yeah, survival is a motivator, and I liked him forcing Lydia to give him blackmail information earlier, but this episode?  He just didn't make sense to me.

It didn't make sense to me to have Lydia snap while just off probation either.  Maybe there will be payoff.

I've said many kind things about Luke.  This isn't a choice between characters (to me anyway.)

This was a moment that showed his idiocy and selfishness.  

My take on Lydia is that her inner rage is always battling some amount of compassion she is genuinely capable of. The rage almost always wins out, but there are moments when her better angels make a very brief appearance, like when she was genuinely horrified by the further mutilation the handmaids in D.C. were forced to suffer. It's what makes her a lot more interesting than Serena.

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Luke's lived with them though, and worked with them at the center.

That mute woman who wouldn't speak?  Moira?  He knows Emily too.

It's not as if the dude has no experience with survivors of Gilead.

Yeah, it's a brutal, pain-filled world they are living in.. They are going to f*ck up with some frequency.

[AntFTW]

I can understand Luke’s POV as well. Luke went through a traumatizing experience as well. Obviously, I wouldn’t say that it was to the level that Moira, June or Emily went through but it was traumatizing in its own right.

Trying to escape Gilead was hell (wasn’t he shot?) and having his wife and child ripped from him… for years not knowing whether they’re alive or well. The only way for Luke to heal his trauma is to have his family back and knowing that they’re safe. He’s one step closer with June but now for a still-missing Hannah, which I would imagine is the most painful part. For that, I can forgive the misstep.

[Umbelina]

26 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Dang it! Now I gotta rewatch. I missed that.

It's at about 37 minutes in.

He apologizes for crashing the trial when she told him not to come, then says

"but at least now I know everything, and maybe we can just move on"

Then he goes on to say if she wants to talk to him about anything, about Hannah,"

So he did TRY, after that superb blunder.

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Umbelina

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

The parts of this episode that fell apart for me (yes, I am watching again) are everything to do with Lydia and with Commander Lawrence.

None of it makes any real sense to me.

I get Lydia with her little pet she's abused for so long, Janine, but the rest of their stories?

WTF?

What is Lawrence's motivation now?  What the hell is Lydia's?  

I adored all the Canada scenes, but the disconnect with Lawrence/Lydia's actions is jarring.

Lawrence's character is puzzling to me. It's hard to figure him out and it's less of a "complicated character" issue and more of a poor character development one. He seems to fit whatever the plot needs to move forward with at each moment. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by mamadrama

[Hathaway]

3 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Lawrence's character is puzzling to me. It's hard to figure him out and it's less of a "complicated character" issue and more of a poor character development one. He seems to fit whatever the plot needs to move forward with at each moment. 

Nailed it!

Sad if true though, he used to be interesting.