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S01.E07: Sacrament

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Really, really enjoyed it.  And I didn't mind the red herrings, because in real life with a difficult murder case, there always end up being false leads and paths to pursue that end up proving unfruitful.  My only complaint was how they wrote Dylan...we saw no explanation for his character changing so much, not even Erin's death, since he threated Jess after that.

16 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Whoever picked Ryan as the killer, kudos. I kind of wondered about it last week when John said they could never let Mare know and Lori cracked immediately and told her about Billy and where they were. It seemed they were protecting someone then. 

In terms of our forum, I am the one who predicted it!  (And I didn't see any spoilers!)  The key for me was the cafeteria tray scene...I just didn't think they would have included that for no other reason.  And of course there was the lack of a specific mention in John and Ryan's conversation that the secret was John resuming the affair with that woman, which led me to speculate on what else could be such a significant secret, and the same lack of specificity from Ryan when Lori was asking him about it.  I predicted that his motive was protection, but that he was trying to protect Erin (from some other attacker, and then accidentally killed her), instead of it being his family that he was trying to protect.

16 hours ago, Norma Desmond said:

So, is John a free man now?

I found it odd that they told us about Billy's year-long sentence and then eligibility for parole, but told us nothing about what happened to John, who had already been sentenced for a crime that it was then shown he didn't commit, but had committed lots of other crimes that he was apparently not originally held accountable for but easily could be now.  

16 hours ago, HollyG said:

We also didn't find out who was running the prostitution site/ring. I would have sworn it was Dylan.

There had been speculation in this forum about a ring, but to the best of my knowledge, there was no ring, there was only the website that the girls were affiliated with.

Edited by LuvMyShows
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3 hours ago, whiporee said:

She transformed almost overnight -- going from planting drugs on Carrie to taking Drew to her house without trepidation, from avoiding a party altogether to having celebratory drinks with Faye and Frank and patting Faye's shoulder as they goof about Frank's wardrobe. They showed her change but they never showed why.

The passage of time and her therapy sessions are two answers that come to my mind.

Edited by preeya
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16 hours ago, whiporee said:

I don't really care about the murder, but Erin wasn't giving vibes of someone who was out to destroy John the night she was killed. She wasn't out of control raging -- she was upset and had just gotten beaten up. Just none of it fits, but all that got lost behind Kate's performance. Which was really good, in what turned out to be a story that made no sense at all. 

The description of Erin being angry and threatening was given by John when he was claiming that he was the one who murdered her. It was made up, just like his claim of being the murderer was made up. He had to give them a plausible reason for why he killed her that night, and "she was blackmailing me" was the obvious one to make up.

As you noted, when we actually saw Erin she didn't seem that way at all. She did want to see John but I don't think it was going to be anything more than just her pleading with him the same way she'd pleaded with Dylan earlier. And probably deep down she really just wanted to see him after the way she was catfished and at the same time her ex-boyfriend made it clear he had no affection for her.

3 hours ago, Empress1 said:

This is what happens when people are socialized to believe that they're nothing without a relationship. Like, it's one thing if your husband cheats once. I can see trying to forgive that. But then he not only cheats again, but his cheating is the sexual abuse of his teenage blood relative. Like, you trust him to be around other teenage female members of your family? This is someone you want to spend time with? This is who you want teaching your son how to be a man? I know there's pressure for "the family to stay together," but sometimes you just have to break up and cut people off.

Lori didn't know that it was Erin until the morning of the day of John's arrest, when John confessed to her. And she did kick him out when she found out that he was supposedly cheating with Sandra again - that's why John was moving in with his dad in the last episode, while Mare was warning Lori that John would try to charm his way back in again. Would Lori have eventually taken John back for cheating with Sandra again? Possibly; she admitted to Mare in that conversation that she still loved John, and Mare certainly seemed to view it as possible and she knows Lori as well as anyone. But Erin? I think probably that would have been a bridge too far for Lori, as she noted it was incest, among other things (she was speaking of the supposed Billy/Erin connection at the time, but she would know it applies just as much to John). It doesn't much matter since they were already separated and then John was arrested almost immediately after he told Lori the truth and will now be spending time in jail.

I hate to give up on a kid, but I'm not sure that Ryan isn't ultimately a chip off his old man's block. We were clearly shown in the flashback footage of him and Erin that he murdered her. The first shot was when they were struggling over the gun, but then he got the gun and took several seconds to aim it directly at her and think about things before deciding to fire. The camera lingered on that. Lori's "It was an accident" is either her repeating a claim John and/or Ryan made about how it went down (not wanting to believe her son could be a deliberate killer) or her just knowing that he'll get lesser charges that way.

I thought the finale was wonderful and a perfect way to end such a great series, even though I'm sad to think we won't see any more of Mare. I loved the penultimate scene of these two best friends.

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1 hour ago, Passing Strange said:

When Mare is going after a grown man, who may have a gun, she's fine doing it by herself. When it's an unarmed 13-year-old, she needs multiple officers, none of whom wind up doing much to apprehend the kid.

I suppose that the issue with the Ross brothers was time sensitive. John and Billy might be doing something else illegal, or killing each other as it turned to be the case. Time was of the essence so Mare just took off on her own, presumably with backups following her. In case of Ryan, he was certainly not going anywhere and police presence was to dissuade Lori of doing anything stupid.

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3 hours ago, blixie said:

I have a lot of problems with the final twist of Ryan being the killer, as I simply don't buy this 12/13 year old boy, carried out this many steps to "accidentally" murdering his cousin: observe dad flipping out, check hi phone, pretend to be his dad and text to meet her in the park, has time to pick up gun, fight with Erin, kill her, move her body, return the gun, go home, call dad, who then has time to clean up after child commits murder but didn't have time to make sure kid was home in bed? All on a fucking child's BIKE come on that had to take 3 hours at least and no one ever checked on the kid being back at home or still at Franks.

The weakest part of the series was  Erin's murdur mystery.  With such a detailed plan that Ryan laid out, I don't see how a prosecutor would not see this as premeditated murdur.  Maybe he got a break on the charges because his mom was besties with the lead detective, so he was only charged with manslaughdur.

 

The communication between Erin and John the night of her death was befuddling  Mare said that cell records showed no calls to John number.  John said that Erin called his regular number (assuming with the burner phone).   According to Ryan account of the night, she also sent texts to John’s regular number.

image.thumb.png.762702349d7c98885099d29e7c154972.png

Does that mean that John listed the burner phone number with the name "Erin"?   Wouldn't  that negate the whole concept of using burner phones to secretly communicate with one another?

Also if your son confronts you of the affair because he checked the  text messages on your phone and you still have contact with her in secret,  wouldn't  it be wiser to change your cell phone passcode every once in a while so he doesn't have access to your phone?

 

4 hours ago, blixie said:

I am also still annoyed at all the Dylan stuff, there was no good reason he was threatening Erin with a gun nor why he'd callously say she'd end up just like Erin. And I totes agree that there is no way DJ should have ended up with Lori or in that family, I mean Dylan himself sucks, but I still think his parents provided a better chance for the kid than the tattered remnants of the Ross family.

I got annoyed they didn't address how Dylan seemed to  know that Erin was shot  in the head..  Dylan's threat to Jess in  the last episode was "...you’re gonna end up with your face blown off just like Erin”.  It didn't appear  to be public knowledge since they asked John about it during his interrogation.   Was he even asked that question in his police interviews?

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4 hours ago, JeanJean said:

The actor who was supposed to play that part dropped out (pretty last-minute, I think). Guy P did it as a favor to Kate; they're friends.

Thank you! That was bugging me. 

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1 hour ago, shoetingstar said:

I should have called it Reverse!Fridging lol. That's what I like about the writing of Mare, she was written with aspects that could have been for a male lead. It somehow didn't come off forced or projected from a dubious place- (like see! equal opportunity! yay girl power) - which I appreciate.

But yes, it's very common aka a trope. It's cut and paste at this point. There are other things that can trigger a change or give motivation to a character, etc. However, TV/film writers are going for an immediate impact in the shortest amount of time and the death of a sympathetic characters is the default.

To be fair a lot of the triggers already used. Depressed addict son who abuses and steals from her who kills himself, leaving a small child. Daughter who blames her for stuff. Mother who disapproves of her choices. Ex husband who lives in her backyard and everyone likes better. Whippersnapper given her case. There was a pattern. 

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The Delco DA is clearly not Ben Stone or Jack McCoy. Ryan would be lucky to get a plea deal for Murder 2- Reckless Endangerment.

Edited by paigow
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1 hour ago, grawlix said:

I got annoyed they didn't address how Dylan seemed to  know that Erin was shot  in the head..  

Dylan - the insidious criminal mastermind - must have a mole in the P.D.

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Jess apparently knew that John was DJ's bio father, and also apparently believed that Erin would have wanted DJ to stay with Dylan's family, and she wanted to honour Erin's wishes. So why did she go and tell Lori that she thought Frank might be DJ's bio father?

It also seemed strange to me that Mare still believed that John had been having a second affair with Sandra, once she knew about his affair with Erin.  I assumed that Sandra had been used as a cover story.

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18 hours ago, Penman61 said:

I feel like this final episode had way too many upbeat storyline resolutions

Agreed. It was too much. Half of the happy endings you listed should have been cut! The only thing I'd say in the show's defence is that on the other side of the scale... Kevin died, Erin died, Zabel died. Each young person's sudden death devastated the people all around them. And the resolution to Erin's murder mystery is a tragic one that means Ryan, an even younger person, is (justly) taken from his family. And everyone's dealing with very heavy stuff already, even the minor characters like Beth, Mr. Carroll, and Dawn.

The show completely fooled me. I believed the killer was John, and I never considered that it might be Ryan. So the twist was super effective for me and it made sense of some things that hadn't made sense. Like why Lori would lie to Mare to protect a husband who had supposedly just confessed to murdering the teenager he had cheated with. Or why Billy would offer to confess. The actions of Lori, Billy and John make more sense if they were all trying to protect a child.

I like the way the show came right back to the very start of the season, and tied the solving of Erin's murder to Mare getting called out to the Carrolls. Good show. I really enjoyed it.

Edited by Kirsty
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4 minutes ago, catsitter said:

Jess apparently knew that John was DJ's bio father, and also apparently believed that Erin would have wanted DJ to stay with Dylan's family, and she wanted to honour Erin's wishes. So why did she go and tell Lori that she thought Frank might be DJ's bio father?

It also seemed strange to me that Mare still believed that John had been having a second affair with Sandra, once she knew about his affair with Erin.  I assumed that Sandra had been used as a cover story.

She didn't know John was the father until she found the photograph in the journal. She may have known about the him and Erin (I hate that they called it a relationship, she was like 14/15 when it happened?) but did not know who DJ's father was. She was dating DJ at the time she got pregnant.

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If you think about the two police cases featured in the show, they're both perfect for tabloid headlines.  Both of them would be national, maybe international stories -- the sex slave one ending in a shootout rescue and then the 13-year old shooting his cousin in an attempt to scare her off from pursuing his father.

Potts was lucky he wasn't caught earlier.  He's not particularly some mastermind, driving around in a truck which was easy to identify and seen around the streets when the victims were abducted.

Ryan of course had help from his parents and uncle but these people aren't savvy about police investigations so they should have been caught earlier.  That is assuming they would try to conceal the death, which they could have said was initially an accident and self defense.  Then you had this young teen mother fooling Dylan's family and the whole town with the identity of the father of the "secret love child."

Real tabloid stuff.

And Mare should have tracked down the ballistics for a murder weapon which is relatively rare.  They could have cross tracked it to cops and former cops living in this small town.

So the cases weren't that compelling but the show drew the audience very effectively into the lives of these characters.  Like we said, the pilot episode didn't move the murder plot so much as establish the setting of this specific place and the personal lives of these characters.

I think probably the most memorable moment in that pilot was the bullying of Erin, the ambush at the park.  That caused a strong reaction and instantly established the villains in this story, got viewers on Team Mare and Team Erin.

That bullying scene is not unlike the Game of Thrones pilot where Joffrey gets humiliated by Arya and the poor baker's boy is punished, establishing the Lannisters as villains and Joffrey as the first of many MUST-DIE characters on that show.

It's effective but manipulative, lacking in subtlety and grace.  It just so happens the I've been catching up on Mr. InBetween, which also features a child being bullied.  Ray, who's a professional killer, tries to talk to the mother of the girl who's bullying his daughter.  But instead of resorting to violence, which he's very skillful at using, he gets a bigger girl to threaten the girl who was bullying Ray's daughter.  So much more deft way to depict bullying in this instance.

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4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Wow, big pile of meh lol. This was easily the worst episode of the season. In general, I think it was bad enough that I would tell people who were waiting until the end to binge it to just not bother tbh.

It's funny because my reaction was the opposite: When I saw the show had stuck the landing (in my opinion), I immediately texted a friend to tell him to binge it.

12 minutes ago, catsitter said:

Jess apparently knew that John was DJ's bio father, and also apparently believed that Erin would have wanted DJ to stay with Dylan's family, and she wanted to honour Erin's wishes. So why did she go and tell Lori that she thought Frank might be DJ's bio father?

Jess confides in and is heavily influenced by her mother, who was clearly always of the view that she should tell the police everything. Her mom saw Jess was troubled a few episodes ago, so Jess told her about Dylan not being DJ's father and that it might be Frank. And after Dylan attacked Jess, she obviously went home and told her mom, who again insisted she go to the police with the information she had rather than keeping it secret like Dylan wanted. The way Jess vacillates instead of sticking firmly to one idea seems pretty typical of a teenager who is clearly conflicted, torn between whether any of this might have to do with her best friend's murder, a desire for Erin to have what she wanted, and her mom's guidance.

The "happy endings" make sense when one considers that this is ultimately a show about how Mare, and her family, go on a journey of healing after the suicide of a family member. One reviewer said the show went with grace, which I think is a beautiful way to put it. Even a gritty show doesn't have to be relentlessly downbeat in its conclusion, and there is certainly enough misery in what went down with the Ross family and Zabel.

Speaking of the Ross family, I'm reminded that I read an interview with Julianne Nicholson this morning where she mentioned there were scenes scripted that dealt more with the issue of DJ's custody, which likely would have addressed some of what people have brought up here. Unfortunately COVID got in the way, so not everything that was scripted could ultimately be filmed.

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2 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

It's funny because my reaction was the opposite: When I saw the show had stuck the landing (in my opinion), I immediately texted a friend to tell him to binge it.

Oh yea, it definitely seems I'm sitting at a table of a couple in having hated this finale lol.

I personally loved the happy endings. I actually wish Carrie hadn't have relapsed and that she could have gotten partial custody of Drew or even moved in with Mare, which would have been really saccharine and unrealistic but I don't care.

I just really didn't want Ryan to be the killer. The Ross/McMenman (sp?) family was tragic enough and I think having Ryan as the killer was too much. 

Also, there were a lot of holes, which normally doesn't bother me when I like a show but it really did here for some reason.

Plus, I thought a lot of the acting in the finale was just really bad lol.

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Anyone else curious about what Chief Carter was thinking when John said the he and Erin "had this connection"?  The insertion of the Chief's reaction seemed a little out of sync with the rest of the scene. 

1798282890_ScreenShot2021-05-31at4_05_40PM.thumb.png.92120d3f3aaea333b3a9b5dee5621aff.png

Edited by grawlix
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I’m curious if there were others that straight binged this like me, started Saturday night, caught up Sunday before finale. I feel that can affect views. 

Me?  I thought this was an extraordinary series!!

 I thought it was very fair on laying clues for the whodunit portion of the show —-in no way did I believe Billy’s confession at end of ep 6, knew John had to be father, wasn’t convinced he was killer...for the few hours before finale after binge, I was noodling between Lori & Ryan as killer. Sometimes I do wonder if the pace of week to week and red herrings strewn throughout  leads to perhaps overly complex theories on whodunit that can lead to disappointment in final reveal  

As a study of Mare/her family/friends/community and dealing with grief, hopelessness, disappointment, I also thought it was beautifully done and phenomenally acted.  

Just well done all around. 
 

 

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54 minutes ago, catsitter said:

Jess apparently knew that John was DJ's bio father, and also apparently believed that Erin would have wanted DJ to stay with Dylan's family, and she wanted to honour Erin's wishes. So why did she go and tell Lori that she thought Frank might be DJ's bio father?

It also seemed strange to me that Mare still believed that John had been having a second affair with Sandra, once she knew about his affair with Erin.  I assumed that Sandra had been used as a cover story.

I don't think Jess knew that John was DJ's bio father until she found the photo.   When she thought it was Frank, it was because Erin 1) told Jess that Dylan wasn't the father and 2) Jess saw Frank bringing Erin baby supplies.   It's only after the journals are found and she sees the picture that she knows it's John.  

Mare thought it was Sandra because Lori told her it was and at that point Mare had no reason to not believe her.  I think when Lori said it was Sandra, Lori herself believed it. 

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17 hours ago, FemmyV said:

If Lori and John had gone straight to the police, in all likelihood, they would have gone light on Ryan and the worst thing he would have had to deal with was Kenny coming after him.

I have a really hard time feeling very sorry for Lori. She was going to allow John to send his submissive brother to prison for the chronic statutory rape, and murder of a teenaged girl. How well was that going to go?

This. Also the long term psychological effect on Ryan (having to deal with the guilt of what he has done, the guilt of his father being in jail for him and keeping this secret for the rest of his life) would have ruined his life. At least now he can hope to heal.

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36 minutes ago, pennben said:

I’m curious if there were others that straight binged this like me, started Saturday night, caught up Sunday before finale. I feel that can affect views.

I know that personally, I started watching after the series had begun, but not too far in - I think it was only the first two episodes that I binged, and then I had caught up and so had to watch weekly afterwards. I know I definitely kept wishing that the whole series was already out so that I could just do a long binge, but at the same time, having already watched some of the show, and feeling hooked already, I just couldn't resist watching each new episode as it dropped instead of waiting until it was all over with.

I think the split may be more between what viewers were watching for than whether people binged or watched weekly, but that's just speculation on my part.

25 minutes ago, raven said:

Mare thought it was Sandra because Lori told her it was and at that point Mare had no reason to not believe her.  I think when Lori said it was Sandra, Lori herself believed it. 

Lori did believe that, yes. But the other poster's question was why did Mare still think that John and Sandra were having an affair after it was revealed that John and Erin were. I initially did find that a bit odd myself, when Mare was confronting Sandra about it at the restaurant, but then I took into consideration that Mare knew at that point that John was habitually unfaithful. It sounded like, although it was not made absolutely certain, the sexual component of Erin and John's relationship ended after she got pregnant and they disagreed on whether she should have an abortion. So, knowing that John was habitually adulterous, I can see where Mare still would think that John had an affair with Erin and then resumed an affair with Sandra. Realistically, given his tendencies, he would have cheated again at some point with someone. And that was obviously something Mare recognized given her advice to Lori in the previous episode to stand firm and not take John back.

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Your job is not done, Mare.  Who stole Mr. Carroll’s Eagles cup?!?

Edited by mojoween
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8 minutes ago, mojoween said:

Your job is not done , Mare.  Who stole Mr. Carroll’s Eagles cup?!?

The stoner neighbour kid that painted the backyard sign... 

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4 hours ago, preeya said:

She transformed almost overnight -- going from planting drugs on Carrie to taking Drew to her house without trepidation, from avoiding a party altogether to having celebratory drinks with Faye and Frank and patting Faye's shoulder as they goof about Frank's wardrobe. They showed her change but they never showed why.

Don't forget, the events at the end were 8 months after the murder investigation.  When Deacon Mark was preaching, he said it had been 8 months since he was able to face the congregation.  Mare seemed committed to her therapy so she was able to deal with her guilt and grief.  Having to face and acknowledge the pain Siobhan suffered from finding Kevin hanged was another important step. I can imagine that after 8 months being helped to heal, she would have changed and lightened up. We have no idea what she was like before Kevin's suicide.  I assume she was a driven, focused detective but she may also have been more cheerful personally with her family.

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3 hours ago, catsitter said:

It also seemed strange to me that Mare still believed that John had been having a second affair with Sandra, once she knew about his affair with Erin.  I assumed that Sandra had been used as a cover story.

I found that scene to be strange, too. I went back thru her conversations with Lori. When Mare was released from the hospital, Lori tells her that Ryan told her that John was involved with Sandra again.

We know that Ryan never said those exact words; he let Lori believe that. When Mare confronts Sandra, John has already confessed to the incest with Erin, being DJ’s father and murder. 
 

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

Lori did believe that, yes. But the other poster's question was why did Mare still think that John and Sandra were having an affair after it was revealed that John and Erin were. I initially did find that a bit odd myself, when Mare was confronting Sandra about it at the restaurant, but then I took into consideration that Mare knew at that point that John was habitually unfaithful. It sounded like, although it was not made absolutely certain, the sexual component of Erin and John's relationship ended after she got pregnant and they disagreed on whether she should have an abortion. So, knowing that John was habitually adulterous, I can see where Mare still would think that John had an affair with Erin and then resumed an affair with Sandra. 

As you say, there is some ambiguity about when John stopped abusing Erin. If Mare made the assumption that John DID resume the affair with Sandra, it is because Lori initially believed - and communicated it to her - based on the conversation with Ryan. Of course, when Lori told that to Mare, she didn’t yet know the truth. 

When Sandra denies resumption of the affair, I think Mare realizes that something is off with what Lori originally told her. 

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22 hours ago, luna1122 said:

The poor kid has a murdered mom, a POS bio dad, a half brother who killed his mom, a grandpa who tried to kill the guy who THOUGHT he was the dad, who is also, incidentally, a psycho. At this point, the poor kid would have a better chance with a brand new family. 

And not that I blame her, but in the doctor's office Lori was staring at him as if wondering "how am I going to love this child?" 

Having said that, I absolutely enjoyed this.  I knew as soon as they 'got' John in the first 10 minutes that he wasn't the killer.  Making it Ryan lined up, given things that happened in prior episodes. 

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2 minutes ago, Cheyanne11 said:

And not that I blame her, but in the doctor's office Lori was staring at him as if wondering "how am I going to love this child?" 

Having said that, I absolutely enjoyed this.  I knew as soon as they 'got' John in the first 10 minutes that he wasn't the killer.  Making it Ryan lined up, given things that happened in prior episodes. 

DJ will grow up to be an FBI profiler that can always use his criminal family for insight... Prodigal Son Of Easttown

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Why was Mare so cagey when she asked the chief what he thought of the guy who reported on the Colt?

 

🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️
 

ETA:  Was there really any need for her to keep private her thoughts that the expert might have goofed regarding ballistics?

Maybe Mare’s self-therapy/coping mechanism was to SOLVE ERIN’S (the murduhed dorduh’s) MURDER all by herself in order to forgive herself for Kevin’s death.

Otherwise, why not just tell the chief why the Colt was tethering her?

Edited by hoodooznoodooz
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22 hours ago, Ursula Parrott said:

Was Siobhan off to UC Berkeley or Berklee College of Music in Boston? The latter makes more sense.

Not really. Comfortable shoes, etc. 

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18 hours ago, violet and green said:

I have a few lingering concerns... that blue van that was used to kidnap the last girl was a dark blue van with a ladder on top; and the one outside the guy who killed Zabel was a lighter mid-blue and had no roof racks. That annoys me. 

 

Watch again and you can see Potts van is dark blue, and there is a ladder on top that appears to have wooden rails. 

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I thought the directorial and cinematic choice for the last scene was terrific. I did wonder if we’d see a light turned on in the attic after Mare ascended but it remained dark, symbolizing that Mare was taking only the first step out of darkness. 

At least she has begun. 

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On 5/30/2021 at 11:11 PM, SeanC said:

Uh, are they really going to raise DJ as a brother alongside the person who killed his mother?

I was annoyed that DJ became a symbol for Lori's bullshit "grace" resolution instead of a testament to Erin's love and devotion. He had lived with DJ's parents. There was no grounds for custody, they just had to hand him over to the lady who got away with obstructing his mom's murder? 

23 hours ago, ShadowHunter said:

she had custody of Drew. Guy Pearce was literally a love interest and nothing else lol. Richard didn't really do anything lol. 

This was a good watch and while not perfect I am glad I watched this. For me them killing off Evan Peters will always be a strike against the show lol.

I was also disappointed with Carrie's non-resolution. I felt like having her relapse off-screen and just shrug and hand Mare custody validated Mare's (awful) behavior and sent the message that those struggling with addiction can't recover. (and also, subliminally, that we were supposed to anticipate or by relieved by her relapsing because she's portrayed as a "bad" addict). I thought she would move in with them.

And fuck this show for using the post-Zabel kiss music over Mare's unearned, beige reunion with Guy Pearce, lol.

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10 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

A philanderer usually locks his phone so his son can’t text the cousin his dad’s molesting.

I took it that John is not the sharpest tool in the shed, and Ryan seems overly bright for a teen. I can buy that Ryan knew John's unlock code or managed to grab the phone at a time when John had left it unlocked. 

10 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

Won't Ryan be in custody for a very long time? Assuming he isn't charged as an adult, he'll be housed in juvenile facilities to await trial and serve his time.

At a guess, he would be charged with involuntary manslaughter if the prosecutors believe his account, and then would likely serve the five years till he turns 18 and perhaps some few additional. 

10 hours ago, Dminches said:

I don’t know what he was charged with and how it played out but wasn’t John going to be paroled after a year?  Why would Ryan be incarcerated for a longer period of time?

 

Ryan was the actual killer, and so he would presumably have more serious charges like murder or involuntary manslaughter. Even though there is a possibility that he would go free sometime after becoming an adult, there is also the possibility that he either could be tried as an adult or he could get a long sentence. Scrolling through a Wikipedia article, it looks like a lot of teen killers get 20+ years to life in the U.S. The Supreme Court has ruled that the death penalty for juveniles is unconstitutional.

John's most serious charges would likely be attempted murder/aggravated assault for threatening Billy, obstruction of justice and conspiracy for misleading the murder investigation and covering up Ryan's crime and statutory rape of a minor. It's not impossible that with a good lawyer  and some luck, he would not serve anywhere close to the full time for those crimes. It is entirely possible as a first time offender, he could get straight up probation.  

8 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

If he had no access to firearms, Ryan would have to be physical with Erin. He would have to stab, cut, bludgeon, or strike her. He would not have been able to make the threats from the comfort of 5 m buffer from Erin. Would a boy like him be willing to get close and personal to get his message across? Maybe he would, but I would also posit that the likelihood is lower.

The cafeteria scene showed that Ryan was unafraid to get physical with someone who was if not bigger than him presumably a bigger threat than Erin. 

8 hours ago, Passing Strange said:

Some other headscratchers for me:

In all the time Mare had known the Carrolls, it apparently never came up that Mr. Carroll had been on the Ridley force.

When Mare is going after a grown man, who may have a gun, she's fine doing it by herself. When it's an unarmed 13-year-old, she needs multiple officers, none of whom wind up doing much to apprehend the kid.

I assume that Mare would have known that Carroll had been a Ridley cop. The scene was just written in an awkward way.

I also assumed the multiple officers were there to try to make sure the kid didn't run away, and the difference wasn't so much the threat of grown man with a gun. Ultimately she talked to Lori and Ryan alone too. 

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53 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Watch again and you can see Potts van is dark blue, and there is a ladder on top that appears to have wooden rails. 

Oh, yes, you're right. I took the smashcut off the blue van from the previous scene to be his. His sideburns are still totally the wrong style and length for the kidnapper, though.

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The scene at the end of Lori breaking down in Mare's arms, the way the shot was composed reminded me so much of Michelangelo's PIETA, and given the religious threads woven through the plot and the town, it's a nice connection. I wonder if they intended it. Mare becomes Mary, and Lori the dead Christ. And like how Jesus died for the sins of humanity, Lori "died" for taking on all the sins in her family.415389062_IMG_5337(1).jpg.f572258aff25dc75f18e1f701c6b78b4.thumb.jpg.d67e4fcf79f41733cc130cb46e975621.jpg

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Helen has called Mare by her full name a couple of times. Is it Mary Ann or Marianne?

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17 minutes ago, SnazzyDaisy said:

Helen has called Mare by her full name a couple of times. Is it Mary Ann or Marianne?

Subtitles had it as Marianne.

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Hopefully Mare's therapist can one day recommend someone for little DJ to talk to, he's only a few months old and already has a long lifetime of family issues to unpack. That is probably the conclusion that I am the least happy with looking at the finale as a whole. I like that Mare is finally getting to the point where she can look for closure with her sons death and that she is opening up more, and that the town itself is starting to heal from its rash of deaths and destroyed families, I think that all works really well. The town and Mare still have a ton of issues that they need to work on, but things are looking up. I wish that Dylan's parents had kept DJ though, I don't see how him being raised by the Ross's will be good for anyone, especially DJ. Being raised in a dynamic where you one day have to find out about how your older brother killed your mother who was raped by your father is hard enough being raised elsewhere, but in the middle of all that will be even worse. He really should have stayed with Dylan's parents. Dylan might be a scummy kid (even if he isnt a killer) but they did love him and wanted him just the same when they realized that they weren't his bio family. It seemed like Lori could hardly stand to be near the poor baby, I don't really see this as a good situation. 

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6 hours ago, grawlix said:

Anyone else curious about what Chief Carter was thinking when John said the he and Erin "had this connection"?  The insertion of the Chief's reaction seemed a little out of sync with the rest of the scene. 

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Oh, I’m pretty sure his reaction was something along the lines of “I did not actually hear a grown ass man who was screwing his teenage cousin just speak of his ‘deep connection’ to her to justify that shit, did I?”

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6 hours ago, mojoween said:

Your job is not done, Mare.  Who stole Mr. Carroll’s Eagles cup?!?

And the pizza slicer? Not nice. I mean, PIZZA.

Edited by hoodooznoodooz
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2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I took it that John is not the sharpest tool in the shed, and Ryan seems overly bright for a teen. I can buy that Ryan knew John's unlock code or managed to grab the phone at a time when John had left it unlocked. 

Total agree: John is not a Mensa candidate.

But as another poster pointer out, Ryan read his texts previously. If I enjoyed cheating on my spouse, even after my ‘tween son confronted me about my indiscretions, I would make an effort at least?

I dunno. Maybe.

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2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I wish that Dylan's parents had kept DJ though, I don't see how him being raised by the Ross's will be good for anyone, especially DJ. Being raised in a dynamic where you one day have to find out about how your older brother killed your mother who was raped by your father is hard enough being raised elsewhere, but in the middle of all that will be even worse. He really should have stayed with Dylan's parents. Dylan might be a scummy kid (even if he isnt a killer) but they did love him and wanted him just the same when they realized that they weren't his bio family. It seemed like Lori could hardly stand to be near the poor baby, I don't really see this as a good situation. 

Right? This is what makes me believe Lori still loves the child molester.

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I wonder how long Ryan will be sentenced for. That place sure did not look like it was all that bad. Personally, I think this kid is a good example of a person who is possibly going to be a blight on society once he gets out. He already has bad genes. His father is a liar, a cheat, a manipulator, a child rapist, a bully. Was Willing to murder his brother after forcing him to take the blame for something he was Innocent  of.  Now we have his spawn who maybe being a child made a stupid decision about the gun but…..  I mean I don’t know any kids that have access to one, I hope, but It takes a special kind of bad to think it is a good idea to threaten somebody with one. See the thing that gets me is after he struggles with Erin over the gun he stepped back and consciously murdered her. It wasn’t like he ran away, dropped  the gun. 
I don’t see this as innocent child I don’t feel sorry for him. This was a pretty fucked up scenario and the kid needs to be an institution. 

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On 5/31/2021 at 12:28 AM, SnazzyDaisy said:

When the murder mystery is solved within the first 5 mins, everybody know there's more to it.

John is still an asshole despite trying to cover for his son, he started everything! Will he be facing statutory rape charges as well? Kudos to Ryan for owning everything, he is a better man than John is. Lori is a saint for taking DJ in, he's gonna be a painful reminder to her, everyday. I wonder how Kenny will react when he finds out that his own cousin was raping his daughter & the father of his grandson. Twisted to the core!

So Dylan and his buddy are not involved in drugs business and prostitution huh. It's nice of him to give $$$ to DJ.

Hey show, for all the plot twists and red herrings, why do I have to endure watching Siobhan's love lives for several episodes??? They add nothing. Same goes with Richard Ryan, he is pointless. At least the peeping Tom story does contribute to the cctv installation at the Carrolls.

When Mare tells Father Dan that Deacon Mark has been released, he looks unhappy, why?

Evidently, one core theme of MoET - grieving mothers! Mare, Helen, Dawn, Lori, Carrie and even Dylan's mom (for losing DJ).

This is me watching the final scene between Mare & Lori... it's so moving & unbearable!

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Good points. They left a lot unresolved. 

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On 5/31/2021 at 12:50 AM, Ursula Parrott said:

Was Siobhan off to UC Berkeley or Berklee College of Music in Boston? The latter makes more sense.

Good question because I wouldn’t want my vulnerable 17-year-old daughter driving cross country to California by herself. 

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5 hours ago, pennben said:

Oh, I’m pretty sure his reaction was something along the lines of “I did not actually hear a grown ass man who was screwing his teenage cousin just speak of his ‘deep connection’ to her to justify that shit, did I?”

Yeah, I took it as “Bitch, please”.

Chief has seen and heard things in his career….

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18 hours ago, Affogato said:

 

If there is a second season the trial can be in the background. Raising DJ with Ryan is a horrifying thought.  You wouldn’t want it to happen. It would likely be ok but the first response is not to go there. And ryan with that reminder in frint of him every day. Let the healing begin. 

Yes exactly that baby deserves a new start  in life he has a totally fucked up biological family.  his brother killed his mother for Gods  sake. 

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11 hours ago, meira.hand said:

This. Also the long term psychological effect on Ryan (having to deal with the guilt of what he has done, the guilt of his father being in jail for him and keeping this secret for the rest of his life) would have ruined his life. At least now he can hope to heal.

No sympathy for this 12 year old psycho who deliberately pulled the trigger. Rewatch the scene. 

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I thought that was fantastic.  With a whole hour left I knew there had to be more to the mystery, and when Mr Carroll said a kid had access to the shed?  I groaned.  Oh no.  Oh Ryan.  What a painful situation from every angle, even when everyone does come home there will be no getting past these events.  

Lori lashing out at Mare is totally understandable.  She was grieving and not thinking rationally.  Just like Colin's mother, Mare was a convenient person to blame.  Mare knew that and in both cases just took the beat down, didn't try to argue or defend, just let it happen and wait for another time (at least with Lori) to reach out.  Lori knew very well who was the cause of her family breaking up, she just couldn't process any further heartbreak when Ryan was arrested.

Who would have guessed that the very first scene of the first episode (about the peeper) would be relevant?

I liked all the red herrings and unconnected storylines.  They added color and context to the town and Mare's circle.

I think Richard made up the job at Bates so he could get out of that crazy town immediately.  He should have taken DJ with him.

I agree the 3 women really were outstanding.

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18 hours ago, whiporee said:

Too many easy fixes for a show that tried to be so much more. I've read a lot of people saying this was Mare's story, but they didn't even do the work for her. She transformed almost overnight -- going from planting drugs on Carrie to taking Drew to her house without trepidation, from avoiding a party altogether to having celebratory drinks with Faye and Frank and patting Faye's shoulder as they goof about Frank's wardrobe. They showed her change but they never showed why.

 

Why do you think she transformed overnight?  It seems as though she had been going to therapy for months.  Also, when she spoke to Mr. Carroll she said that pain will never go away.  She hadn't exactly become a happy go lucky kind of gall. 

She always seemed capable of being around Frank (remember, the marriage likely ended as a result of the son's death) and now she was able to attend his wedding but she did say to her b/f that she need 3 bloody marys to make it happen.  I don't see that as an overnight change or even a big change.  Yes, she has moved in the right direction.

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22 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

is undercut by the notion that presumably the cop would have kept the safety on the gun on when it was stored, and Ryan would have had to know to take it off. But maybe the cop was just sloppy with safety

Do revolvers have safety's? I know Semi-Autos do but, I don't think Revolvers have one except for that half cock position but, if Ryan didn't know anything about Guns, I doubt he'd know about revolvers and, their safety situation.  Plus, I don't think it would have held during the struggle.

I finally watched last night and, I'm happy/shocked to see my speculation about John being the father and Ryan the shooter was spot on. I'm no great detective so they laid out good ground work for the puzzle pieces.

I felt the happy/hopeful ending a little jarring given the 6 previous/depressing episodes. However, I've decided that Easttown was a reflection of Mere's emotional state. When she was depressed, angry, bitter so were the people because it was her view of life we were seeing. Now that she's dealing with her guilt and emotionally healing we're seeing a happier/healthier town. 

 

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