S10.E06: Episode 6

[OtterMommy]

Quote

Sister Frances treats an expectant mother whose behaviour masks deep psychological trauma. Meanwhile, Trixie is compelled to publicly speak out on an important issue.

 

[maggiegil]

I was curious what the £100 donation would be in todays money because it seemed a bit stingy for someone who is a barrister and whos family owns businesses in the area so must be quite well off. Its the equivalent of £1,598.87 (https://www.inflationtool.com/british-pound/1966-to-present-value) so nothing to sniff at but the way hot widower was talking to Sr. Julienne I was assuming he would be donating a lot more than that.

I was surprised at the start of this series that Trixie was so anti abortion when the private Dr was performing them. Her more practical stand on abortion in this episode seemed more in line with what we know about her character. I wasn't expecting Mother superior to give her blessing for Trixie to be on the BBC radio programme, it would have been interesting to see that conversation play out and see Sr Julienne going to bat for Trixie.

I thought the shaming of Nancy by Sr Julienne for being a single mother and therefore of bad character etc was sad but very true to the times and probably the attitude of most Nuns back then. I think we forget how recent it is that women were absolutely shamed for being a single mother and how it was seen to be such a character defect. Its sad but its true to life and I think sometimes the programme wants to shy away from the ugly way that society used to treat unmarried mothers, ethnic minorities etc rather than being true to the time period.

[akr]

2 minutes ago, maggiegil said:

I was surprised at the start of this series that Trixie was so anti abortion when the private Dr was performing them. Her more practical stand on abortion in this episode seemed more in line with what we know about her character.

I suppose her issue with the abortions at the private clinic was that it wasn't something she felt Nonnatus House could be associated with - they were looking at a partnership of some sort. 

[MissLucas]

Well, that's another episode to point out to those folks bashing CTM as treacly tv comfort food.

I remember how shocked I was when I read about the horrors of the Partition for the first time. Show did not throw any punches there and the actress did a great job. I knew something was up when I saw all the bleach and cleaning products she had been schlepping to her apartment but did not expect such a horrific cause to her OCD. I'm glad Dr. Turner talked about therapy - though I'm not sure how effective trauma treatment was in 1966.

Poor Sister Julienne got handled two ethical conundrums in one episode. At least Hot Widower (who is also getting property nearby) provided some relief. I was also surprised that Mother Mildred was okay with Trixie's interview. But she has shown some robust pragmatism on occasion.

I was intrigued by the plot twist about Nancy. My advice to Sister Julienne is to not be more Catholic than the Pope and just let it go. The Irish nuns were trying to find a solution that would allow Nancy to pursue her dream of becoming a midwife and be in contact with her child. Which was quite inventive but also involved a lot of deception. As Nancy said, the Catholic church is very good at managing misfortunes or covering them up. That said in view of what we know now about the fate of many young and single mothers in Ireland Nancy got the gold treatment.

I don't think Sister Julienne was shaming Nancy, she just pointed out the sad truth that no nursing school would have accepted a single mother. Only a few seasons back the young pregnant teacher lost her job and got kicked out of her lodgings. Single mothers brave enough to go through with their pregnancies and keep the child had to fight to make a living. Jobs that required an 'impeccable reputation' like nurse or teacher were pretty much out of the question.

It will be interesting to see how Sister Julienne will proceed now that the cat is out the bag because she won't listen to my advice. But as she said to Trixie she's bound by her faith.

[jpgr]

5 hours ago, akr said:

I suppose her issue with the abortions at the private clinic was that it wasn't something she felt Nonnatus House could be associated with - they were looking at a partnership of some sort. 

Yes, that was the crux of it in that episode. I think it also added to her personal outrage that rich women have access to clean, proper medical facilities for their abortions while the women in Poplar are relegated to dirty back alleys.

Edited May 25, 2021 by jpgr
words

[Badger]

I also think the reason the Irish nuns were so willing to accommodate Nancy is that she was their success story.  I don't believe they would have done it otherwise.  I don't think it was an easy decision for them just as it's not an easy decision for Sister Julienne.  

[debraran]

I was shocked at Sr Julienne too until I realized you weren't supposed to work. They had a show years ago about a mom who was single and got fired from being a teacher when her child was found out. Women are constantly reminded how far we have come and how behind we still are in many ways.

I see in preview Nancy is visiting her daughter so it will be interesting. So far I am not clicking with her character yet, too much still just on surface but I hope as she gets to interact in a more mature way, I do.

I cringed when the woman's husband who beat her, was saying "Don't you dare blame this on me",  re pregnancy" So many times those words were said and when is it not really? Just leave her be or wait until you get a job.

[Cetacean]

Despite the times, I am kind of unsettled at Sr. J's reaction to Nancy.  She was sympathetic to the incestuous sister and brother in an early season but she's quick to boot out an orphan who worked hard to make something of herself.  Is it because she didn't let the child be adopted?  I don't get it.  What happened to forgiveness and redemption?

Loved the line about how the Catholics are quick to cover up.  How many cases of abuse have they hidden for hundreds of years!

Good for Trixie for outshouting the pompous men.  Sadly, it's still wash, rinse, and repeat to this day.  Old, rich, white men making decisions for women's health.  I'm sick to death of it. 

That poor, poor woman from India.  CTM certainly didn't hold anything back with that horrible story.  I am glad that the clinic brought her together with sympathetic neighbors.  

[Blackie]

As always with the quick scenes and PBS edits, for the first 20 min I didn't really know what was going on with the show. It did manage to bring the emotion by the end though, 

 

On 5/24/2021 at 2:18 PM, maggiegil said:

Its the equivalent of £1,598.87 (https://www.inflationtool.com/british-pound/1966-to-present-value) so nothing to sniff at but the way hot widower was talking to Sr. Julienne I was assuming he would be donating a lot more than that.

 

I thought Hot Widower was coming to fully fund Nonnatus house or buy them a new property, I guess that will cover a month or so of expenses.

 

On 5/24/2021 at 7:53 PM, Badger said:

I also think the reason the Irish nuns were so willing to accommodate Nancy is that she was their success story. 

 

Not to mention she got pregnant on their watch. I got the impression when they brought her to Nonnatus house to get rid of her and they fluffed her resume. I find the character Nancy all over the place, I still don't really get what she is about,

[Sarah 103]

On 5/24/2021 at 2:55 PM, MissLucas said:

I was also surprised that Mother Mildred was okay with Trixie's interview.

My only guess is that she could do the interview as long as she did not mention her affiliation with Nonnatus House and Trixie made it clear that she was speaking as an individual and not as a representative/spokesperson for a larger organization. 

It seemed strange that it was a BBC radio show and not a television show, but I have no idea why I felt that way. 

[caitmcg]

2 hours ago, Cetacean said:

Despite the times, I am kind of unsettled at Sr. J's reaction to Nancy.  She was sympathetic to the incestuous sister and brother in an early season but she's quick to boot out an orphan who worked hard to make something of herself.  Is it because she didn't let the child be adopted?  I don't get it.  What happened to forgiveness and redemption?

I think she felt like it put her in a difficult position because they all lied about Nancy, and while she can overlook and have empathy for the the foibles and misfortunes of people in the community, Sister Julienne has now inadvertently been made party to the nuns’ and Nancy’s professional deceptions. 
 

The show certainly made a contrast between Nancy’s insisting that the law must be followed or consequences be dealt in the case of the patient’s attempted self-induced abortion, and her asking Sister Julienne to look the other way after discovering her deception so that she could have the life she wants for herself and her child. 

[libgirl2]

On 5/24/2021 at 1:18 PM, maggiegil said:

I was curious what the £100 donation would be in todays money because it seemed a bit stingy for someone who is a barrister and whos family owns businesses in the area so must be quite well off. Its the equivalent of £1,598.87 (https://www.inflationtool.com/british-pound/1966-to-present-value) so nothing to sniff at but the way hot widower was talking to Sr. Julienne I was assuming he would be donating a lot more than that.

I was surprised at the start of this series that Trixie was so anti abortion when the private Dr was performing them. Her more practical stand on abortion in this episode seemed more in line with what we know about her character. I wasn't expecting Mother superior to give her blessing for Trixie to be on the BBC radio programme, it would have been interesting to see that conversation play out and see Sr Julienne going to bat for Trixie.

I thought the shaming of Nancy by Sr Julienne for being a single mother and therefore of bad character etc was sad but very true to the times and probably the attitude of most Nuns back then. I think we forget how recent it is that women were absolutely shamed for being a single mother and how it was seen to be such a character defect. Its sad but its true to life and I think sometimes the programme wants to shy away from the ugly way that society used to treat unmarried mothers, ethnic minorities etc rather than being true to the time period.

I also expected a much larger donation! 

[Haleth]

I too was surprised by how strong Sr Julienne's reaction was to Nancy's secret.  Just a few scenes earlier she was ok with Trixie going on the radio in support of the abortion law, but when Nancy confessed to giving birth at 16 she didn't seem to have any sympathy at all.  I understand she didn't like that she had been lied to, but come on, Nancy is a smart, responsible young woman getting her life together.  I hope she isn't dismissed because of a mistake she made in the past, while growing up in an orphanage!  Give the girl a break!

[MissLucas]

7 hours ago, caitmcg said:

The show certainly made a contrast between Nancy’s insisting that the law must be followed or consequences be dealt in the case of the patient’s attempted self-induced abortion, and her asking Sister Julienne to look the other way after discovering her deception so that she could have the life she wants for herself and her child. 

Makes sense from a psychological point of view. She opted to give birth despite all odds and so she has no sympathy for someone who doesn't. She's still very young and at that age the world often looks conveniently black and white.

[Mermaid Under]

Quote

It would have been interesting to see that conversation play out and see Sr Julienne going to bat for Trixie.

I've never been one to complain about the "masterful" PBS edits of this show.   Trixie leaped from the green polyester pantsuit talking to Sister Julienne to the blue polyester Jackie Kennedy suit getting a lift to the BBC, and that was really obvious and jolting.   I don't even like the Mother Mildred character, and even I could tell they lopped off the whole conversation.

Quote

I too was surprised by how strong Sr Julienne's reaction was to Nancy's secret. 

Are we going to find that Sister Julienne has a baby somewhere?  We don't know much about her backstory at all.

 

[AZChristian]

10 hours ago, Blackie said:

I thought Hot Widower was coming to fully fund Nonnatus house or buy them a new property, I guess that will cover a month or so of expenses.

-----

Not to mention she got pregnant on their watch. I got the impression when they brought her to Nonnatus house to get rid of her and they fluffed her resume. I find the character Nancy all over the place, I still don't really get what she is about,

I looked online, and 100 pounds back then was the equivalent of 2,000 pounds today.  Sounds like a more generous gift now.  LOL.

-----

I honestly thought for a minute that they were hinting that Nancy's child might be Angela Turner (ages are similar, and Angela's mother was 16 years old and unmarried).

[dubbel zout]

8 hours ago, caitmcg said:

I think she felt like it put her in a difficult position because they all lied about Nancy, and while she can overlook and have empathy for the the foibles and misfortunes of people in the community, Sister Julienne has now inadvertently been made party to the nuns’ and Nancy’s professional deceptions. 

Yeah, I think it's the lies more than Nancy's actions. It's always the coverup, not the crime. (Well, except when dealing with fallen women. Then it's also the crime.)

Sister Julienne is in a tough spot here. I think she truly has admiration for what Nancy has been able to do with her life, but she was unwillingly made a part of a serious lie that has huge implications for Nonnatus House. It's not Sister Julienne's fault society has ridiculous requirements for women to be teachers and nurses. I think in her own way she's fairly open-minded about things, but she can't ignore something like this.

The editing was weird when Phyllis gave Trixie a ride to the BBC and a bit later we see Phyllis racing into Nonnatus House to ask if everyone heard the broadcast. Where was Phyllis? Did she listen at the BBC? These tiny cuts are so stupid.

Violet was funny with her very pointed "NEXT!" after Sister Frances saw her at her constituent meeting.

[libgirl2]

2 hours ago, Mermaid Under said:

Are we going to find that Sister Julienne has a baby somewhere?  We don't know much about her backstory at all.

 

I don't think she does. We did learn a bit about her when her ex-boyfriend showed up several seasons back. 

[kwnyc]

When the show sticks closely to period and actual history, it shines. The trauma of the Pakistani woman (and Sister Frances, who thinks of herself as a bit helpless, forming the mothers' group) was both true to the time and the focus of the show. And of COURSE Miss Higgins speaks 3 Indian languages.

Ditto Sr. Julienne's reaction to Nancy. The pupil midwife was dumped in her lap by the lying Catholics (!) putting her in a position where she's complicit in not upholding the standards of her order or her profession.

And that is the nasty truth of those times: a woman with a child and without a husband (unless she's a widow, and gets to live on a tiny pension) is BAD and cannot be permitted to associate with good people. (Just this month, a friend of ours was fired from the Catholic school where he teaches because he MARRIED his longtime partner.)

I think Sister Julienne will come to terms with Nancy, but as we've seen before, she has to think it through, and find a way forward that is consistent with her own moral compass (as she told Trixie.) Also, it's interesting that Dr. Turner does not seem to have a moral objection to abortion, and isn't against it becoming legal. (Like Trixie, it may be because he has seen so many bad things happen because it's not safe and legal.)

I still think Trixie is going to end up a Member of Parliament. ;-)

[EllaWycliffe]

This went to a weird place in that to a point it felt like Sister Julienne was retroactively punishing Nancy when Nancy had already gone down a path that would have been perfectly acceptable if Nancy was being treated by Nonnatus House. Ie - if Nancy had birthed her baby and put the kid in the care of her mom and called herself the kid's sister and then gotten a good job to lift herself out of poverty as a single woman. If it was anyone but a midwife at Nonnatus, Sister Julienne would be fine with keeping her mouth shut. This is almost the same scenario the girl in the prior episode went thru - no abortion, thats wrong, so have the baby and give it up and then go on to live your life as though you weren't a teen mom... and everyone seemed pretty on board with it. 

[dubbel zout]

7 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

I still think Trixie is going to end up a Member of Parliament. ;-)

That would be AWESOME.

[DonnaMae]

On 5/24/2021 at 11:18 AM, maggiegil said:

I thought the shaming of Nancy by Sr Julienne for being a single mother and therefore of bad character etc was sad but very true to the times and probably the attitude of most Nuns back then.

At least Nancy didn't have an abortion and has remained in her daughter's life.  I think that's quite admirable.  

How does Trixie afford so many fashionable clothes?  We keep seeing new ones every episode.

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by DonnaMae

[LittleIggy]

I felt bad for Nancy’s daughter having to grow up in an orphanage. I thought children in orphanages were eligible for adoption.

[Good Queen Jane]

It's hard to realize today how unwed mothers were looked at in the mid-Sixties (or before). I was a teenager then, and remember how some girls in my high school would simply disappear or "go to help take care of a sick aunt." Girls who got "in trouble" were immoral and "ruined." Many entered into "shotgun" marriages (and remember divorce was also looked down on during that time, so they were stuck in a marriage that was unhappy.) Most women didn't work outside the home, especially once they were married. And the average age for a bride was 20! It was a very different time.

[DonnaMae]

13 hours ago, Blackie said:

I thought Hot Widower was coming to fully fund Nonnatus house or buy them a new property, I guess that will cover a month or so of expenses.

Perhaps that will happen.  I doubt we've seen the end of Hot Widower.

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, kwnyc said:

 

I think Sister Julienne will come to terms with Nancy, but as we've seen before, she has to think it through, and find a way forward that is consistent with her own moral compass (as she told Trixie.) Also, it's interesting that Dr. Turner does not seem to have a moral objection to abortion, and isn't against it becoming legal. (Like Trixie, it may be because he has seen so many bad things happen because it's not safe and legal.)

I still think Trixie is going to end up a Member of Parliament. ;-)

I wonder how that will work with Shelagh. I haven't gotten a sense of how exactly she feels about it, but considering her past, I can see her being against it. 

Go Trixie! 

[Blackie]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

1 hour ago, kwnyc said:

I still think Trixie is going to end up a Member of Parliament. ;-)

That would be AWESOME.

 

In that AWESOME pant suit!!!

Edited November 8, 2021 by Blackie
did the quote work?

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, DonnaMae said:

How does Trixie afford so many fashionable clothes?  We keep seeing new ones every episode.

She has a relative (I think it's an aunt) that sends her money and Trixie uses the money for clothes. I want Trixie's clothes. I don't think I would look good in them, but I still want them.   

51 minutes ago, Good Queen Jane said:

It's hard to realize today how unwed mothers were looked at in the mid-Sixties (or before). I was a teenager then, and remember how some girls in my high school would simply disappear or "go to help take care of a sick aunt." Girls who got "in trouble" were immoral and "ruined." Many entered into "shotgun" marriages (and remember divorce was also looked down on during that time, so they were stuck in a marriage that was unhappy.) Most women didn't work outside the home, especially once they were married. And the average age for a bride was 20! It was a very different time.

Yes. In the U.S the average age of marriage was 20 in 1959, but it started to increase during the 1960s. I don't think it was still 20 in 1966 (keep in mind, these are U.S numbers. I do not know UK numbers). "Shotgun" marriages were very real and as you point out, often deeply unhappy for both parties involved. Divorce was more than looked down on, it was also incredibly difficult to obtain. In the U.S, you needed grounds for divorce. You had to have proof that one spouse did something that was grounds for divorce in that state (adultry, cruelty, and other stuff). I have no idea what the situation was in England, but I am sure the divorce laws were still restrictive.  

 In 1969 California created no-fault divorce, which meant a couple could divorce without proving that the actions of one party had ended the marriage. Part of the reason the divorce rate in the U.S skyrocked in the 1970s was that couples who had been forced to marry in the 1950s no longer had children at home so the idea of staying together for the sake of the children was no longer as relevant, and since divorce was easier and slightly more acceptable, couples divorced. Many of the U.S divorces in the 1970s were couples who had been together 20 years.

[Grrarrggh]

I think Sis J came down on Nancy hard for a few reasons. First she doesn't like being lied to and some of her reaction was shock. She should have thought about it for a while before talking to Nancy. Second, she's been so conditioned to follow rules so learning that not only had Nancy, someone who in Sis J's mind she was doing a bit of a favour for, broke them but also that NUNS did really affected her. Third part of it was fear for Nancy and some anger at the system as she knows that this lovely young woman's life may ruined, at least when it comes to being a midwife or most any career. 

But I do think it was a badly written scene all around.

I think Nancy was coming down so hard on "law and order" and being "professional" in sort of the same way you'll sometimes see homosexual men try to be stereotypically super macho. Or even be homophobic themselves. 

[proserpina65]

On 5/24/2021 at 2:18 PM, maggiegil said:

I was surprised at the start of this series that Trixie was so anti abortion when the private Dr was performing them.

She wasn't anti-abortion.  She was outraged by the idea that these well-off women could get abortions with little to no trouble, whereas the poor women whom she was used to treating didn't have that kind of access.  And she was also angry that the doctor would think the order to which Nonnatus House belonged would be okay with an involvement with a clinic that did abortions.

On 5/24/2021 at 2:55 PM, MissLucas said:

I remember how shocked I was when I read about the horrors of the Partition for the first time.

My first exposure to it was the final episode of The Jewel in the Crown, which was devastating.  I'm so glad that poor woman was going to get some help.  At least I hope she'll take Doctor Turner's advise to do so.

3 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

This went to a weird place in that to a point it felt like Sister Julienne was retroactively punishing Nancy when Nancy had already gone down a path that would have been perfectly acceptable if Nancy was being treated by Nonnatus House. Ie - if Nancy had birthed her baby and put the kid in the care of her mom and called herself the kid's sister and then gotten a good job to lift herself out of poverty as a single woman. If it was anyone but a midwife at Nonnatus, Sister Julienne would be fine with keeping her mouth shut. This is almost the same scenario the girl in the prior episode went thru - no abortion, thats wrong, so have the baby and give it up and then go on to live your life as though you weren't a teen mom... and everyone seemed pretty on board with it. 

It's the deception, and Nonnatus House's unwitting inclusion in it, that is the problem for Sister Julienne.  Like it or not, there were very strict professional standards for trainee nurses/mid-wives and they included being of "good moral character".  Unfortunately having a baby out of wedlock would make a woman fail that standard.  As Sister Julienne said, no unmarried mother would've been accepted into a nursing training program at the time.

[libgirl2]

11 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

My first exposure to it was the final episode of The Jewel in the Crown, which was devastating.  I'm so glad that poor woman was going to get some help.  At least I hope she'll take Doctor Turner's advise to do so.

 

I don't remember learning about it but I did watch Jewel in the Crown ages ago, so maybe I just forgot. They didn't really cover this sort of thing in depth in school. I have been reading up on it a bit today..... how God awful. 

[proserpina65]

3 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I don't remember learning about it but I did watch Jewel in the Crown ages ago, so maybe I just forgot. They didn't really cover this sort of thing in depth in school. I have been reading up on it a bit today..... how God awful. 

It didn't get mentioned at all in history class when I was in school.  If I hadn't seen The Jewel in the Crown, I'd never have known about it until now.

[EllaWycliffe]

2 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

As Sister Julienne said, no unmarried mother would've been accepted into a nursing training program at the time.

Agree - but oddly Sister Julienne seems on board with a rule that she otherwise wouldn't enforce.

Point - I bet she didn't ask "are you an unwed mother?" to any of the new midwives. It's just sort of assumed that they are all pure virgins or whatever.

I get the moral quandary aspect it just seems out of character for her to not even try to be understanding. Nancy was raised by nuns who actively encouraged her to lie. 

[proserpina65]

8 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Point - I bet she didn't ask "are you an unwed mother?" to any of the new midwives. It's just sort of assumed that they are all pure virgins or whatever.

I imagine it's assumed they wouldn't have lied about their past before being accepted for training.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

Yes. In the U.S the average age of marriage was 20 in 1959, but it started to increase during the 1960s. 

I wasn't sure either,  so I looked it up and the average age for brides remained 20 until  sometime in the 1970's.  I was 20 when I got married and no one thought it was super young.  I also saw that the rate of babies born to unmarried women in 1970 was just 7%, which partially explains Sister Julienne's shock. It was very uncommon in the general population and probably almost unheard of in the young midwives she has known.

In my area, PBS is showing Les Miserables right before CTM and I can't help comparing  this with Jean Val Jean firing Fantine when he found out she had a child.  In his case as well as Sister Julienne's their shock and anger seem mostly about having been deceived.

I was working in a bank in 1985 when one of the unmarried tellers got pregnant and the bank manager fired her for it. In 1985!

[GaT]

7 hours ago, Haleth said:

I too was surprised by how strong Sr Julienne's reaction was to Nancy's secret.  Just a few scenes earlier she was ok with Trixie going on the radio in support of the abortion law, but when Nancy confessed to giving birth at 16 she didn't seem to have any sympathy at all.  I understand she didn't like that she had been lied to, but come on, Nancy is a smart, responsible young woman getting her life together.  I hope she isn't dismissed because of a mistake she made in the past, while growing up in an orphanage!  Give the girl a break!

I thought she was so mad because she had been lied to & purposely deceived by other nuns. I have no idea what the qualifications for a midwife were back then, but having a child when you were 16 & unmarried was probably a disqualification of some kind. Letting Sr Julienne take Nancy into the program probably felt like they had turned her into a liar too.

6 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I honestly thought for a minute that they were hinting that Nancy's child might be Angela Turner (ages are similar, and Angela's mother was 16 years old and unmarried).

I am so glad that it didn't turn out that way LOL

[caitmcg]

34 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Agree - but oddly Sister Julienne seems on board with a rule that she otherwise wouldn't enforce.

But there’s a big difference between Sister Julienne's having empathy for the plight of someone in the community and the professional strictures placed on employees in her profession, whom she supervises and has to answer for. It doesn’t matter how “on board” she is from a personal point of view (and having sympathy for someone's situation doesn’t imply approval). I can’t imagine a situation in the timeline of the show where she’d hire a single mother who had a child out of wedlock, even if she’d have no personal issue with her, due to the expectations of both her profession and religious order. At any rate, there’s nothing for her to enforce outside the purview of Nonnatus House.

12 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I was working in a bank in 1985 when one of the unmarried tellers got pregnant and the bank manager fired her for it. In 1985!

If so, it was in violation of employment law (the Pregnancy Discrimination Act was in force in the US in 1985).

[LittleIggy]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

I don't remember learning about it but I did watch Jewel in the Crown ages ago, so maybe I just forgot. They didn't really cover this sort of thing in depth in school. I have been reading up on it a bit today..... how God awful. 

In the ‘70s, I read a really good book about the Partition titled “Freedom At Midnight.” It was shocking to me, a teenager, that people who had peacefully coexisted and even been friends turned on each other. Unfortunately, such things are not surprising anymore. ☹️

Why does Nancy have to report what she is doing on her day off? 🙄

Edited November 8, 2021 by LittleIggy

[Cetacean]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Like it or not, there were very strict professional standards for trainee nurses/mid-wives and they included being of "good moral character".  Unfortunately having a baby out of wedlock would make a woman fail that standard.  As Sister Julienne said, no unmarried mother would've been accepted into a nursing training program at the time.

Maybe in England but definitely not in the US. I  started nursing school in 1967.  No such rules were in force.  I was employed from 1971 until I retired. No such rules were in force.  I knew of single mothers both when I was in training as well as when I was working so not sure where this all comes from.  Perhaps it's the case in other countries.

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, caitmcg said:

If so, it was in violation of employment law (the Pregnancy Discrimination Act was in force in the US in 1985).

Yep  Our branch manager told him (the bank president) that it was against the law and he just shrugged.  He looked and acted just like Mr. Burns.

I'll bet a lot of it came down to who the boss was and what rules he/she made up. People working for minimum wage usually don't have the time or money to bring lawsuits.

[dargosmydaddy]

7 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I felt bad for Nancy’s daughter having to grow up in an orphanage.

This. I thought that was a strange/ unbelievable and rather selfish plot point, as I would think a white, healthy infant would be easily adoptable back then just as today. I can get why teenage, emotional Nancy might choose the orphanage option, but why the nuns allowed it, I don't know. Giving a baby a life with a home and (presumably) loving family seems like a no-brainer over being raised in an orphanage with little realistic hope of her mother ever going to be able to take her home. Heck, I would think even Nancy, who was raised in an orphanage herself (though I'm not sure if they said for how long?), would agree, even though it would obviously be heart-wrenching.

Speaking of cuts, does anyone know where Sister Hilda is? Last week's episode summary mentioned her being called away, but I think that was cut from the actual episode, and she was still (seemingly) gone this week. Just wondering where she got called to...

Edited November 9, 2021 by dargosmydaddy

[dubbel zout]

12 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I can get why teenage, emotional Nancy might choose the orphanage option

I'm surprised she got a choice, especially given what came out about the Magdalen laundries and the mother and baby homes (abuse, mass burials, etc.). I know they didn't want to go full horror show here, but I really wonder if a Catholic nunnery would give Nancy that much autonomy of choice for any of this.

[EllaWycliffe]

1 hour ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I can get why teenage, emotional Nancy might choose the orphanage option, but why the nuns allowed it, I don't know. Giving a baby a life with a home and (presumably) loving family seems like a no-brainer over being raised in an orphanage with little realistic hope of her mother ever going to be able to take her home.

I completely agree that its unlikely Nancy would have had any choice to its unrealistic but... hear me out.

Nancy gets a good job as a nurse/midwife and is allowed to take her "little sister" home to raise her by herself seems to be the plan here. 

Still unlikely to work but it did happen. 

[susannah]

I missed this on Sunday so just saw it tonight. I felt so sorry for the abused woman. WHY do men always say "don't blame your getting pregnant on me!" That bit of male privilege just makes me nuts. I also thought that $100, or pounds or whatever, was chump change from Rich Guy, nearly insulting. But as said, back then, that was alot of money. It seemed to me that Nancy did her best to take responsibility for her choices and was trying to build a decent life for herself and her daughter. For the first time, I almost disliked Sr Julienne. It is none of the sisters' business that Nancy goes to visit her daughter, or even that she has one. Sr J would be the soul of compassion for everyone else in that situation, but not Nancy. I was surprised though that the child is in an orphanage. I don't imagine they are ever fun, but especially not back then. Also, I don't recall seeing Trixie running the letter to the paper by Sr J first. She just always does what she wants to, and nothing matters to her but that. I really dislike Trixie and time and time again she has shown her self absorption. Twice she put patients, and Sr MJ, in danger because she was passed out drunk, and Sr J barely raised an eyebrow. While I agree with what Trixie said on the radio, I don't like how she just does what she wants. She may have been an individual person but she lives at Nonnatus and is employed by them.

[dubbel zout]

12 minutes ago, susannah said:

It is none of the sisters' business that Nancy goes to visit her daughter, or even that she has one.

It is their business that she has a daughter, though, since being an "upstanding" character is part and parcel of the midwife requirements that the sisters are providing. 

13 minutes ago, susannah said:

While I agree with what Trixie said on the radio, I don't like how she just does what she wants. She may have been an individual person but she lives at Nonnatus and is employed by them.

So she should never be able to express her own opinions? She made it extremely clear she was speaking only for herself from her own experiences as a midwife. Unless you knew Trixie, you'd never make a connection to Nonnatus House. I do agree she should have given Sister Julienne a head's up at least about the letter, but Trixie's input as a woman and midwife is important and relevant to the issue.

[proserpina65]

20 hours ago, Cetacean said:

Maybe in England but definitely not in the US. I  started nursing school in 1967.  No such rules were in force.  I was employed from 1971 until I retired. No such rules were in force.  I knew of single mothers both when I was in training as well as when I was working so not sure where this all comes from.  Perhaps it's the case in other countries.

This show takes place in England so US rules don't really apply.  And Nonnatus House is a religious organization, so they surely have rules that would not necessarily apply to non-religious organizations.

 

[susannah]

10 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

It is their business that she has a daughter, though, since being an "upstanding" character is part and parcel of the midwife requirements that the sisters are providing. 

So she should never be able to express her own opinions? She made it extremely clear she was speaking only for herself from her own experiences as a midwife. Unless you knew Trixie, you'd never make a connection to Nonnatus House. I do agree she should have given Sister Julienne a head's up at least about the letter, but Trixie's input as a woman and midwife is important and relevant to the issue.

They would never have known she has one until she told them, so one minute she is upstanding, and as soon as they know, she isn't? Also. Trixie did say that she was speaking only for herself but again, she was employed by a religious organization. Just because Trixie said she was speaking on her own, that doesn't mean everyone would believe it.

[EllaWycliffe]

19 minutes ago, susannah said:

They would never have known she has one until she told them, so one minute she is upstanding, and as soon as they know, she isn't?

That is how this trope works. Get knocked up? Its all your fault, you slutty whore. You hide the reality that you got knocked up and had the baby and have alternative arrangements for raising the child, be it a parent taking the child, an adoption, you raising "your sister"? Well, now you're not just a slutty whore, you're LYING slutty whore. A baby to a single woman in this era (and sometimes even now) is basically a life ruiner. If you're honest, you're denied options that get you out of poverty, if you lie, you're a liar and judged accordingly. 

I don't like it, and I find it frustrating that Sister Julienne is taking a hard line when she's allowed worse (I like Trixie, but drunk on duty while you're on baby call is a bigger issue morally to me)

[susannah]

48 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

That is how this trope works. Get knocked up? Its all your fault, you slutty whore. You hide the reality that you got knocked up and had the baby and have alternative arrangements for raising the child, be it a parent taking the child, an adoption, you raising "your sister"? Well, now you're not just a slutty whore, you're LYING slutty whore. A baby to a single woman in this era (and sometimes even now) is basically a life ruiner. If you're honest, you're denied options that get you out of poverty, if you lie, you're a liar and judged accordingly. 

I don't like it, and I find it frustrating that Sister Julienne is taking a hard line when she's allowed worse (I like Trixie, but drunk on duty while you're on baby call is a bigger issue morally to me)

I agree completely. Also that Nancy's having a child never endangered anyone's life. Trixie's being passed out when a woman arrived in labor with her baby in distress, and no one else there but Sr MJ, did. That was also just the first time. No matter who it was, she should have been fired on the spot, but like I said, Julienne barely said anything to her. But Nancy's career is ruined now. according to Sr J?  I remember the episode of the schoolteacher, who trusted the married man to be a real human being, and her life and body were ruined for sure. It's no big deal now that single women have babies but men still are able to walk away from all responsibility.

[EllaWycliffe]

17 minutes ago, susannah said:

No matter who it was, she should have been fired on the spot, but like I said, Julienne barely said anything to her.

Sister Julienne was SUPER discreet about it and kept it a secret even though in the 1950s and 60s, being an active female alcoholic was kind of a major moral failing. Sister Julienne certainly didn't report it to the Mother House and sent Trixie to AA and discreetly never directly mentions Trixie's problem lest anyone *really* find out because Trixie WOULD be fired. 

Now Nancy was foolish beyond belief to mention the child to others, but its kind of crummy that Sister Julienne will cover things up for Trixie but not Nancy because when it's Nancy its suddenly wrong to lie and keep secrets about moral failings.