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S04.E16: Dr. Ted

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What is causing this trend in medical shows that portray doctors who just refuse to accept a client’s end of life decisions? It’s infuriating.  

This was a sad episode.  I wonder if Sean and Lea will stay together moving forward.  

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Oh, that end message.

That shot of Dr. Ted at the end combined with the song got me :'(. As did Shaun hugging Glassman. 

I had a feeling this was coming, though, they were hinting at it pretty heavily in past episodes. I did like all the women bonding together with Lea and sharing stories and trying to help her feel better and distract her, that was nice. And I'm glad Claire was able to talk to Shaun and fill him in on what was going on, too. Will be very interesting to see how they handle this going forward. The moment with Glassman calling his wife at the end, and how emotional he was, it had me thinking, given he lost a daughter of his own (she was older, yes, but still), maybe he could be a good shoulder for Shaun going forward.

And this isn't the first painful loss Shaun's had, so I wonder how that'll impact his grief over losing the baby. 

Glassman was right to chew Asher out for his decision for that woman. I understand her reasons for the choices she made. 

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Damn, I guess I shouldn't have been too shocked over that ending, but I was still surprised that they went there with Lea having a miscarriage and losing the baby.  I wonder if that was always the plan and they want to explore how their relationship goes forward after this tragedy (plus, Shaun learning to deal with more emotions he usually tucks away), or was it simply a case of not wanting to add a baby to this show this early on (or ever.)  I imagine it will weigh heavily going forward.  Paige Spara and Freddie Highmore both did excellent work, but I think everyone else did great jobs as well: especially Richard Schiff's choked up reaction when Glassman called Debbie just because he wanted to hear her voice after what happened.  I imagine that; along with feeling bad for Shaun and Lea; this was reminding Glassman about the loss of his own child.

As for the other case, I certainly wouldn't have predicted that Asher would end up being the resident that seems to really play loose with the rules.  Granted, his reasons tend to be more emotion-driven instead of mere arrogance, but this is starting to become a troubling trend with him.  At least they did have Glassman read him the riot act (but still keep it hidden) and he's now going to help the patient with appealing for some kind of "right to die" method.  Definitely great seeing the legendary Veronica Cartwright as the victim, who has been in everything from The Birds, Alien, and Invasion of the Body Snatchers (along with numerous shows.)

It was nice seeing Reznick be supportive (but firm) with Shaun and even admit that she was wrong to have underestimated him when she first showed up.

It might have not been completely the right time, but I feel Jordan over her losing her childhood tortoise (that somehow ran away!)

I do hope someone collects poor Dr. Ted!

Edited by thuganomics85
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32 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

What is causing this trend in medical shows that portray doctors who just refuse to accept a client’s end of life decisions? It’s infuriating.  

This was a sad episode.  I wonder if Sean and Lea will stay together moving forward.  

I hate the trend of doctors thinking they know better than patients too. So Asher misses his grandmother, that doesn't give him the right to override someone else's choices. I am glad Glassman is making him make it right.

He really deserved to be fired, but I like him as a character so I am glad he is sticking around.

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Damn, that was heartbreaking and I don't even like Lea and Shaun.

Asher: I'm sorry about Lea. Is there anything I can do to help?

Shaun: No, as a first year resident, you are the least qualified to help.

Oh Shaun. 

It was nice to see genuine emotion expressed on his face. I don't think we've ever seen him shed tears before.

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Well,I didn't really think they were going to have a baby together.  I just hope their relationship can survive this loss, maybe...

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I was crying at the end because I have been in Lea’s situation and I remember getting taken out in the wheelchair with the staff looking at me with pity . They handled everything well except for a hospital allowing a patient to have a party in her room. 

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Since I was curious:  "A DNR order does not mean "do not treat." Rather, it means only that CPR will not be attempted. Other treatments (for example, antibiotic therapy, transfusions, dialysis, or use of a ventilator) that may prolong life can still be provided."  So again this show is playing fast and loose with the facts.

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The baby storyline was sad, but this might be a way for Lea to move on.  

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1 hour ago, jabRI said:

Other treatments (for example, antibiotic therapy, transfusions, dialysis, or use of a ventilator) that may prolong life can still be provided."  So again this show is playing fast and loose with the facts.

She refused treatment for her infection. The DNR bracelet was to let the medical staff know her wishes if she's unconscious but conscious she can refuse anything she wants.

Comparing this to the House episode where Joel Grey played a doctor who wanted to be euthanized makes this one look to be pretty superficial.

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I guess I shouldn't be surprised that this is what happened, plenty of TV shows pull the convenient miscarriage when they want to do a plot where someone gets pregnant but they don't want to write a baby into the show, but they actually got me to believe that they were going through with this. What a massive downer, I feel terrible for Lea and Shaun. Shaun has had so many tragic loses, this just feels so brutal, and they were so excited about this baby. I think this might be the most we have ever seen Shaun tear up, and Lea just looked so hallow when she was being wheeled out. Glassman hugging Shaun really hit me hard, and then Glassman calling Debbie. This certainly must have brought up a lot of his own feelings about losing his child. I hope someone grabbed Dr. Ted and he can find another home! 

What it is with doctors in this hospitals doing horribly unethical things based on their own person issues? Glassman really is lucky they've managed to hush so much stuff up, the hospital is constantly in danger of lawsuits based on the unethical things their doctors do. I normally really like Asher, but when he did was seriously messed up, he overrode his patients wishes because he misses his grandma and took away her agency and right to do what she wants with her own life. All so that he could feel better, it didn't matter what she wanted. I guess he thought he was doing the right thing, but what a mess. Even now, I think that the paperwork should really just mean they cant bring her back to life if she crashes again, it doesn't really mean she's going to get to seek out death. I half expected the episode to end with Asher finding out that the lady committed suicide so she didn't have to go back to her lonely life. At least Glassman read him the riot act and he finally realized that what he did was wrong. 

Just a really sad episode. Will Lea and Shaun even stay together after this, or will this end with them breaking up? 

Edited by tennisgurl
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Kudos to Paige, Freddie and Richard as well as the rest of the cast.  You made me cry, and I don’t cry too often over TV shows.   

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16 hours ago, ECM1231 said:

Damn, that was heartbreaking and I don't even like Lea and Shaun.

For some reason, this made me laugh, which was welcome after this sad episode.

Not much to say about this one, what can be said?  The "Ooh Child" song they played at the end always reminds me of Guardians of the Galaxy (there's some contrast for you).  Veronica Cartwright did a great job as the woman who wanted to die.  I didn't even know they had things like assist in dying, so you learn something every day.

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Is this show determined to piss me off and lose me as a viewer? First they kill off Melendez and now this with the baby. I was looking forward to the baby storyline even though I know some of you weren't. I don't want to see a storyline of them coping with the loss or breaking up.  I am out for now. I will monitor the posts here about the episodes to see what happens and if it is worth watching going forward.

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The miscarriage was a cop out. There were some other interesting directions they could have gone. Shaun and Lea stay together and raise their child. Shaun and Lea split and she moves away with the baby. Something happens to Lea and Shaun has to raise the child as a single father. I hated that they took the predictable path, although it did allow Shaun to display emotion. Hope that Lea and Shaun stay together and move forward with their relationship. The chemistry is good and Freddie and Paige have excellent acting chops. 

Oh, and I'm old enough to remember when  Veronica Cartwright was a child actress. Seeing her now makes me feel ancient. 

Edited by Hpmec
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1 hour ago, Gloriosa said:

Those TV babies just don't stand a chance.

At least it saves some baby (or babies) the stress of having to be on set.  Even if they'd have an interesting story to tell when they got older.  And as has been said, the miscarriage story was fairly predictable.

Was there a point where Shawn stopped considering it just a fetus?  I'm wondering if he was grieving the child, or was upset because it upset Leah, or was grieving the loss of a future where he was a father?  We might see some of this being touched on in future episodes.

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What a nice moment between Shaun and Morgan.  I know many people don’t like her but I do.  She is hard on the outside and wears her defenses like body armor, but when push comes to shove, she is always going to bat for people. 

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I was expecting the miscarriage given that there's still COVID and COVID precautions for infants on set are probably rather difficult - and they probably didn't want to go with a robobaby. I'm guessing in a season or two we'll have another baby storyline.

The resident expressly ignoring the patient's wishes, ugh, such an annoying med school trope. At first I was thinking "wait why hasn't she been told about medical aid in dying?" and then I was thinking "is she going to convince her to take treatment"

then he did the worst option and snuck her medication against her wishes - last time I was in the hospital, I needed IV antibiotics and it's easy to tell the difference - I was on a broad spectrum (levaquin) and it had a slight green tinge to it, they can't just push some super antibiotics into her IV.

tbh I was surprised that the elderly patient wasn't told about medical aid in dying when she was given the terminal diagnosis - and I have a feeling she would not have a lot of work to do outside of the legally mandated waits, since she was definitely competent and able to make her own decisions.

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On 5/10/2021 at 8:32 PM, thuganomics85 said:

It might have not been completely the right time, but I feel Jordan over her losing her childhood tortoise (that somehow ran away!)

That turtle-scamper hand gesture made me laugh.

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In the days before antibiotics, pneumonia was sometimes referred to as the old person's friend because it killed someone relatively quickly and painlessly and spared them from dying of a more painful illness like cancer.

 

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I am so not looking forward to yet another episode of everyone telling Shaun how he should feel, or deciding that whatever his grieving process is, it's wrong.

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This episode left me in tears.  It was well directed, produced, and the actors’ performances were commendable.  I have no clue where the story goes for Shaun and Leah.  I love them.

I enjoy the character, Asher (and Glasses/Schmidt on Greys).  He’s quirky and is a work in progress.  You don’t know what he’s thinking half the time.  I believe he made the wrong choice in this episode but it was a huge learning experience.  He’s lucky he still has a job.

 

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1 hour ago, amarante said:

In the days before antibiotics, pneumonia was sometimes referred to as the old person's friend because it killed someone relatively quickly and painlessly and spared them from dying of a more painful illness like cancer.

 

Wow. I've had pneumonia and it's hella painful. But it's true it is quicker than cancer. 

 

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22 hours ago, Hpmec said:

The miscarriage was a cop out. There were some other interesting directions they could have gone. Shaun and Lea stay together and raise their child. Shaun and Lea split and she moves away with the baby. Something happens to Lea and Shaun has to raise the child as a single father. I hated that they took the predictable path, although it did allow Shaun to display emotion. Hope that Lea and Shaun stay together and move forward with their relationship. The chemistry is good and Freddie and Paige have excellent acting chops. 

Oh, and I'm old enough to remember when  Veronica Cartwright was a child actress. Seeing her now makes me feel ancient. 

I had NO idea who the lady was! Omg, Jemima on Daniel Boone.  I loved her character.  This is the best I could find.  ( Claim to fame, I met her tv brother, Darby Hinton in the Smokey Mountains as a child.)

 

 

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5 hours ago, possibilities said:

Wow. I've had pneumonia and it's hella painful. But it's true it is quicker than cancer. 

 

I also had pneumonia and it is no way a walk in the park. But compared to lingering maladies of old age, it is relatively quick and painless. Remember this was pre WW II - antibiotics weren't available until the late 1940's/early 1950's.

Many older people I know well don't fear death but are afraid of lingering suffering and succumbing to diseases that leave than less than like Alzheimer or an incapacitating stroke.

Edited by amarante
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23 hours ago, amarante said:

Many older people I know well don't fear death but are afraid of lingering suffering and succumbing to diseases that leave than less than like Alzheimer or an incapacitating stroke.

My grandmother used to say "Why can't people just drop dead?" which sounds terrible, but she meant as opposed to suffering painful illness and losing physical capabilities they once had. She thought it was better to have a quick and painless death. I think that's something a lot of people must start thinking about as they get older.

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On 5/13/2021 at 8:52 AM, amarante said:

I also had pneumonia and it is no way a walk in the park. But compared to lingering maladies of old age, it is relatively quick and painless. Remember this was pre WW II - antibiotics weren't available until the late 1940's/early 1950's.

Many older people I know well don't fear death but are afraid of lingering suffering and succumbing to diseases that leave than less than like Alzheimer or an incapacitating stroke.

My uncle died from pneumonia last month (yes he was in his early 90s and had lost his wife the year before, but about 6 weeks before his death, he was in a mentally fine state after a year of grieving, and then he literally got a bout of pneumonia and passed away within a few days). He survived a bout of cancer years earlier, but pneumonia at that age is sadly almost always a death sentence, because of the fluid that builds up in the lungs.

So, between that and the Shaun and Lea storyline (which my sister-in-law, my mother and my grandmother - none of which are blood related, all had experienced to them), it was an absolute heartbreaker for me.

Not sure if Shaun and Lea will survive this, but I hope they will, since I have been a fan of them from the start of the show.

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On 5/11/2021 at 9:30 AM, tennisgurl said:

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that this is what happened, plenty of TV shows pull the convenient miscarriage... What a massive downer, I feel terrible for Lea and Shaun. Shaun has had so many tragic loses, this just feels so brutal... 

I expected the miscarriage would happen because raising a baby would take too much away from hospital scenes, which is the focus of the show. But given all that Shaun has lost, I felt this was too cruel.

I normally really like Asher, but when he did was seriously messed up, he overrode his patients wishes because he misses his grandma and took away her agency and right to do what she wants with her own life.  Even now, I think that the paperwork should really just mean they cant bring her back to life if she crashes again, it doesn't really mean she's going to get to seek out death. 

I agree. There is a big difference between knowing you are likely to get an infection and die from it in a few days and not preventing it and filling out paperwork and setting the scene for assisted suicide. The latter is a much bigger decision, and Asher put that burden on her.

Just a really sad episode. Will Lea and Shaun even stay together after this, or will this end with them breaking up?

If they don't break up, there will be problems between them for sure. It's a drama, after all... 🙃

 

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On 5/11/2021 at 3:30 PM, Hpmec said:

The miscarriage was a cop out. There were some other interesting directions they could have gone. 

I'm glad that they didn't get into what "certain people" call "late term abortions" -- Lea's case is exactly what's being discussed there.  I really don't want to get into discussions on any aspect of abortion, and mentioning that would have caused sparks on and off the show.

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On 5/13/2021 at 4:19 PM, KaveDweller said:

My grandmother used to say "Why can't people just drop dead?" which sounds terrible, but she meant as opposed to suffering painful illness and losing physical capabilities they once had. She thought it was better to have a quick and painless death. I think that's something a lot of people must start thinking about as they get older.

I had to watch my daughter as she suffered and was dying from cancer. It was terrible as her mom to wish she would go to sleep and not wake up, but watching her in so much pain in the end was a very hard thing to do. Maybe you have to live it to understand why I felt this way.

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Just now, Annber03 said:

Oh, god, @mittsigirl, I'm so sorry. 

Just don't hate me for being honest, I live with enough guilt:)

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Oh, no, of course not. Situations like that, one's emotions and thoughts are all over the place. It's understandable. 

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9 minutes ago, mittsigirl said:

I had to watch my daughter as she suffered and was dying from cancer. It was terrible as her mom to wish she would go to sleep and not wake up, but watching her in so much pain in the end was a very hard thing to do. Maybe you have to live it to understand why I felt this way.

My heart goes out to you. That is a very difficult thing to experience.  I watched my cousin die from dementia over 6 years. The last 2 years on hospice.  I understand a little, but nothing like that of a parent. Cancer and dementia are so cruel.

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Condolences to you as well, @SunnyBeBe :(. 

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Cancer and dementia are so cruel.

Yes. 

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I really liked the scene between Sean and Morgan. She’s easily one of my favourite characters. I wish she could have been included in the scene with the other girls.

The show managed to make me like Lea and Sean. I didn’t see that happening. That broke my heart. Both actors did so much with very little words. With the finale looming I could see them breaking up as part of a cliffhanger. 

Edited by Avabelle
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I'm surprised to see so many expecting Shaun and Lea to split over the miscarriage. Is that a common outcome for couples? Miscarriages are very common. 

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35 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Is that a common outcome for couples? Miscarriages are very common. 

They are. I don’t think this is a common reason for a split but given this is a medical soap and we’re approaching the season finale I wouldn’t be surprised if the cliffhanger was a split. 

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I stuck to my word and have not watched an episode since Melendez left, and this is maybe my 2nd or third time on the board. What is disappointing is even without watching I predicted not only a pregnancy between the two, but that they would also write a miscarriage. 

Yeah, I am still annoyed that they went forward with Sean and Lea and not Melendez and Lim, or Melendez and Claire, or heck Jared and Claire or Claire and Sean.  I had even come around to Carly and Sean.  Lea annoys me and apparently Glassman and Resnick are still there. 

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On 5/10/2021 at 10:59 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

What is causing this trend in medical shows that portray doctors who just refuse to accept a client’s end of life decisions? It’s infuriating.  

Thank you! I was coming to ask/comment the same thing. It is very irritating. The patient has already said what they wanted and now we have to sit through an hour of the staff relating their sad stories to try and persuade the patient to see things their way and do what they want instead. NO! A person knows their body, the one they've had THEIR ENTIRE LIFE, better than a doctor they've met five minutes ago. Stop browbeating your patients and just listen to their needs! I've stopped watching so many other medical shows because of this (or like New Amsterdam they become too preachy). 

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Based on the medical shows I’ve seen, doctors overriding the patients end of life decisions is an epidemic.  

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