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S01.E05: As the Carny Gods Intended

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Jeannette and Kate cross paths at the Skylin High takeover of the County Fair, where one is desperate to prove herself and the other to lose herself.

Airs May 11th.

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Kate smashing Harris’ tombstone and spitting on his grave was very satisfying. And she shouldn’t feel bad for lying to the cops about not knowing Harris to dodge any victim blaming. It’s understandable.

And good for her dumping Jamie’s lousy ass for trying to gaslight her about kissing Jeanette. No, he gets no brownie points for coming clean a year later, but I can tell Kate needed the validation when Jeanette’s lawyer is starting to smear her mental state.

Less understandable is watching Jeanette lie about poor Gideon to try to ingratiate herself with the popular crowd. I’m starting to think she really burned a lot of bridges on her way to the top.

That being said, it’s hard NOT to feel sorry for her, seeing the way her dad takes all his bitterness out on her. Dude, you picked your side, you chose to support her. You’re still her father, so at least pretend to still care about her. Even his girlfriend was kinder to Jeanette than he was.

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Jeannette is single white female creepy clinging on to Kate's scrunchy why creepy Mr Harris looked like he was going to cry when he had to hand over his prize or whatever the term is they use for serial killers who hang on to items from their victims.

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39 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Kate smashing Harris’ tombstone and spitting on his grave was very satisfying. And she shouldn’t feel bad for lying to the cops about not knowing Harris to dodge any victim blaming. It’s understandable.

And good for her dumping Jamie’s lousy ass for trying to gaslight her about kissing Jeanette. No, he gets no brownie points for coming clean a year later, but I can tell Kate needed the validation when Jeanette’s lawyer is starting to smear her mental state.

Less understandable is watching Jeanette lie about poor Gideon to try to ingratiate herself with the popular crowd. I’m starting to think she really burned a lot of bridges on her way to the top.

That being said, it’s hard NOT to feel sorry for her, seeing the way her dad takes all his bitterness out on her. Dude, you picked your side, you chose to support her. You’re still her father, so at least pretend to still care about her. Even his girlfriend was kinder to Jeanette than he was.

I am glad that Kate dumped him right away. She might have forgiven Jamie for kissing Jeanette, but that was really shitty thing to do to someone. While I think Froy is doing well in the part, I thought it was a lie that he was trying to protect Kate by lying about that kiss. She knows what a kiss looks like & she could understand his attachment to Jeanette; making her question her sanity just to preserve their relationship is not a good look.

As for Jeanette's treatment of Gideon, shitty but unfortunately realistic. Lots of kids do it and grow up to regret it (hopefully). It also looks like Jeanette practices what she is going to say, so maybe two episodes ago she wasn't repeating her testimony because she was a psycho.

Fun fact, Gideon is Harley Quinn Smith's real life boyfriend, and the Clerks reference killed me. 

I liked Greg's girlfriend Angela, but I am wondering if Greg had an affair with her before his marriage was over. It looks like he was starting to check out of his relationship with Cindy and seriously flirting with Angie at the video store. I also wonder if Cindy developed a drinking problem and is either in rehab or prison for drunk driving. 

It looks like Derek might be the sanest character on this show. He didn't like what was happening in 1994 but seems the only member of his family coping with it correctly.

Edited by Ambrosefolly
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I didn't think Jamie could sink any lower than punching his girlfriend in the face, but his trying to convince Kate she imagined his kiss was just awful.

Jeanette was cold to Gideon, but who the hell is Mr. Harris to make her feel guilty about it? He is grooming an underage girl and will eventually kidnap her. 

Really sucks for Jeanette's father to have lost his job defending his daughter. And it seems like he lost his wife over the whole thing, since she couldn't handle the scandal (although he may have also cheated). I kind of hope he gets some money.

So Clerks is Kevin Smith's movie, and Mallory is played by his daughter, so that is why she kept bringing it up? I guess it actually is a movie the character would have been into at that time.

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Dear god, not one, but TWO songs that always get jammed into my head for days anytime I hear them: Two Princes and What’s Up?

Edited by TattleTeeny
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20 minutes ago, LEILANI2 said:

Jeannette is single white female creepy clinging on to Kate's scrunchy why creepy Mr Harris looked like he was going to cry when he had to hand over his prize or whatever the term is they use for serial killers who hang on to items from their victims.

Two creeps in a tense standoff over a scrunchy. I don't think I could love this show anymore.

Watching Kate destroy Harris' tombstone was incredibly cathartic. 

I felt so intensely skeeved out by that scene between Harris and Kate at the fair. No wonder Kate feels like she had to lie to the police about it. Even though she was the victim, Kate and so many girls and women like her feel like they are to blame. You see how after the rough summer she was having with her family that a trusted authority figure who showed her kindness wouldn't set off alarm bells. If he was young and kind of cute, then developing a crush was definitely not out of the realm of possibility. It was so hard to watch because grooming like that is so insidious that the victim doesn't even realize its happening. I kept thinking how deserted it was by that game, and how different things might have been if someone had just walked by. Harris talking to Kate did NOT look innocent. All that scene was missing was a tornado full of red flags (but maybe red scrunchies would have been more appropriate).

I would have done worse than dunk Jamie for his attempting gaslighting. What a douchecanoe! I was so happy to see Kate not take his bullshit, and dump him immediately. I really appreciate how strong Kate is, and that even with her "friends" she just asks for space. 

Jeanette is such a creeper. I trust that this show is too smart to go with the obvious Jeanette is the psycho everyone thinks she is but that doesn't change the fact that she was waaaay too invested in her Kate fantasy in 1993, and delusional enough to think she can talk it out in a fun house in 1994. That girl is not right.

We should all be so lucky to have a brother as supportive (and honest) as Jeanette's.

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The scrunchie—it made me think of Heathers! Also, to this day, my BF and I regularly quote Clerks.

Edited by TattleTeeny
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1 hour ago, LEILANI2 said:

 or whatever the term is they use for serial killers who hang on to items from their victims.

Souvenir.

Edited by TattleTeeny
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1 hour ago, LEILANI2 said:

Jeannette is single white female creepy clinging on to Kate's scrunchy why creepy Mr Harris looked like he was going to cry when he had to hand over his prize or whatever the term is they use for serial killers who hang on to items from their victims.

If he wanted to keep it to jack off to, Harris could have said some girl dropped it while playing the water pistol game and he picked it up in case she came back.

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Harris working  at the fair and school principal are both jobs that allow him access to young girls.  I was worried for Gideon when Harris offered him a ride home too.

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Once again, Kate and Jeanette in mirror images was another big visual theme. Not only the literal house of mirrors, but also the way the show began and ended with them split-screen doing similar routines in the mirrors, but then the split-screen turned to face each other, as they were each other in the mirror. Granted, it’s the theme of the show that they’re experiences are almost mirror images, when one girl is “up,” the other is “down,” but each has deep pain and big problems under the surface of the glass. They have similar but opposite experiences, too, like how Martin invited both girls to play the game, but how he interacted with each was very different. He was a principal to Jeanette and a predator to Kate. He even just gave Jeanette  (well, Gideon really) the prize food tickets, but gave Kate the tickets and the stuffed animal that he obviously was not supposed to touch as part of this school fundraiser inside the established theme park.

But it sure as hell seems like the “mystery of the big lie” is that they’re both telling the truth, and the basement mirror will play a big part in that Kate was able to see Jeanette, but Jeanette couldn’t see Kate, just like in the Monkey Maze of various confusing reflections and people being there or not, or suddenly appearing out of nowhere.

So, Jeanette’s jewelry box is quite the treasure trove—a pirate’s booty of stolen things. I do think (not certain though) that we maybe saw that scrunchy there in previous episodes, so perhaps she never gave it to her and instead kept it as an object of her obsession, just like Martin was to do. I feel like next episode I need to freeze-frame the inevitable scene in which she’ll stash something else there or take something out and see what else she has in there. I think I saw a green piece of paper, but that was 1993, so wouldn’t have been a clue, I guess.

ETA: Another big mirroring storyline is their alternating relationships with Jamie. They take turns being jealous of each other. We got confirmation this episode that Jeanette did indeed have a crush on the “Big man on campus” back in 1993, and this was likely one of the reasons she wished she could be more like Kate. Her mom constantly hounding her, reminding her to say hello to the Wallaces, and talking about her blossoming and becoming popular like her certainly doesn’t help. But when you look under the “handsome image” of Jamie and see what’s under the surface, he’s a TERRIBLE person!! Not only physically abusive, but now gaslighting an already emotionally battered and fragile person into thinking she can’t trust her own eyes for an entire year?! So, Jamie really played a part in setting up this dynamic between the girls of who really saw the truth. People are deeper than the image they reflect out into the world, but we’re seeing an awful lot of evil under the surface of this small town. Every episode unveils a little more about what’s behind the surface of the mirror for our two protagonists (antagonists to each other) and their friends and family, many of whom ultimately become their foils.

Edited by JenE4
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7 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

 

Jeanette was cold to Gideon, but who the hell is Mr. Harris to make her feel guilty about it? He is grooming an underage girl and will eventually kidnap her. 

 

This scene showed us how improperly he was treating Kate.  He was grooming Kate but treating Jeanette like a student. 

Only two episodes left.  Perfect length.  I hope we get another season next year with a different crime.

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They're not doing a great job of making me like Jeannette. I want to like her, because I agree that this is probably a big misunderstanding where both girls are telling what they think is the full truth, but she's just coming across so obsessive and creepy in the 1993 and 1994 scenes and borderline sociopathic in the 1995 ones. She lies constantly, she steals, she's casually cruel... I feel sorry for her because she's just a young girl being shit on by the entire world, but I don't like her. I dunno, maybe I'm not supposed to.

I yelled "Oh, fuck you" at the screen when creepy Mr. Harris started in on the "you're so mature" bullshit. The grooming is difficult to watch. I'm just glad this show is calling it what it really is instead of pretending it's the height of romance like Pretty Little Liars did.

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The birth year on Harris' tomb shows he's 31 when he died. It's quite young for an assistant principal, so probably why Kate felt he's relatable and could develop a crush. How he was with Kate... shudders.

Jeanette seems innocent to me but I would not want her as a friend. Not the kindest person and quite self-absorbed in all 3 timelines. She's not even honest to her closest friends in 1993. I don't blame Mallory for doubting her.

I didn’t really find Jeanette's ending scrunchy scene creepy. At that age, girls may have girl crushes or idolise other girl(s). But usually it's harmless and they grow out of it. She wanted to use the scrunchy as an excuse to befriend Kate. Which I get because Kate seemed like a kind person, who you'd want to be friends with, even aside from the fact that she's rich and pretty. She's kind, even to Jamie, a jerk who gaslit her.

Edited by waving feather
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10 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Fun fact, Gideon is Harley Quinn Smith's real life boyfriend, and the Clerks reference killed me. 

I liked Greg's girlfriend Angela, but I am wondering if Greg had an affair with her before his marriage was over.

I always get a kick out of actors pretending to be repulsed by their actual significant others. And that meet cute definitely explains Jeanette's initial animosity towards her. Greg was not smart blatantly hitting on her in front of Vince. That's also probably why Angela is going out of her way to be the cool stepmom figure now (other than Greg being an aloof, bitter sad sack), because she feels bad for accelerating the end of the marriage at the very least.

3 hours ago, meatball77 said:

He was grooming Kate but treating Jeanette like a student. 

Only two episodes left.  Perfect length.  I hope we get another season next year with a different crime.

Especially creepy given that Kate and Jeanette are the same age. He scolds and infantilizes Jeanette for rejecting Gideon (not your place, dude...projecting his younger self, I'm guessing) while luring Kate in with lavish praise about how mature she is and how she's supposedly indistinguishable from adults because he's attracted to her.

Two episodes?! I feel like we've only gotten set up and teasers so far. Hopefully they find a way to wrap everything up. Will the mystery carry over to a hopeful next season? I don't get the sense that this will be a series of different stories every season a la AHS - the plot is so convoluted and that feels too sophisticated for Freeform - but if it were, I hope they would keep the same cast, as it would be fun to watch them play different roles.

3 hours ago, Cranberry said:

They're not doing a great job of making me like Jeannette. I want to like her, because I agree that this is probably a big misunderstanding where both girls are telling what they think is the full truth, but she's just coming across so obsessive and creepy in the 1993 and 1994 scenes and borderline sociopathic in the 1995 ones. She lies constantly, she steals, she's casually cruel... I feel sorry for her because she's just a young girl being shit on by the entire world, but I don't like her. I dunno, maybe I'm not supposed to.

Seconded. If they are setting it up as some kind of miscommunication twist reveal where Jeanette's not actually in the wrong, why is she still such a creepy little weirdo and why am I supposed to empathize with her? For being dorky and unattractive at 15? Her dad become a jackass, but she's bitter and manipulative to everyone and just not a nice person.

1 hour ago, waving feather said:

The birth year on Harris' tomb shows he's 31 when he died. It's quite young for an assistant principal, so probably why Kate felt he's relatable and could develop a crush. How he was with Kate... shudders.

I appreciate that they're rightfully portraying it as grooming and predatory behavior despite him being young and attractive.

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4 hours ago, Cranberry said:

They're not doing a great job of making me like Jeannette. I want to like her, because I agree that this is probably a big misunderstanding where both girls are telling what they think is the full truth, but she's just coming across so obsessive and creepy in the 1993 and 1994 scenes and borderline sociopathic in the 1995 ones. She lies constantly, she steals, she's casually cruel... I feel sorry for her because she's just a young girl being shit on by the entire world, but I don't like her. I dunno, maybe I'm not supposed to.

I yelled "Oh, fuck you" at the screen when creepy Mr. Harris started in on the "you're so mature" bullshit. The grooming is difficult to watch. I'm just glad this show is calling it what it really is instead of pretending it's the height of romance like Pretty Little Liars did.

I kind of like they aren't making her super likable and do hope it is intentional. I also hope that Kate is wrong, not lying, about Jeanette seeing her. The only good thing to come out of all of this in 1995 is that neither girl is with Jamie and I hope it stays that way. I find the actor charming, but that was some abusive shit with both of the girl. Maybe if it turns out that Jeanette didn't actually see Kate, 1996 Jeanette will turn into a better person.

However, I did like Kate kissing Jaime on the cheek after Jaime finally confessed to gaslighting. As sad as it is, it more than a lot do. Hopefully it gives them closure on their relationship and Jamie learns something from it. Gaslighting Kate caused her to break up with him, being honest with her actually got her to say the first kind words to him in a couple years.

Edited by Ambrosefolly
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1 hour ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

Two episodes?! I feel like we've only gotten set up and teasers so far. Hopefully they find a way to wrap everything up. Will the mystery carry over to a hopeful next season? I don't get the sense that this will be a series of different stories every season a la AHS - the plot is so convoluted and that feels too sophisticated for Freeform - but if it were, I hope they would keep the same cast, as it would be fun to watch them play different roles.

 

Articles say that we will get all the answers in the finale.  This was designed to be a limited series from the start.

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This is an 10 episode series, the last time I checked. We have five episodes left, not two.

Edited by Spartan Girl
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 Every time we see Jeanette I feel like I'm taking notes on her every interaction and facial expression, trying to figure her out. Sometimes she seems like a normal teenager, and sometimes she seems pretty creepy, like she's slipping different masks on to see which one fits her best, and she is really fascinated by Kate. Is it just because she is jealous of Kate or really wants to be her friend, or does she have a more sinister side? 

Even if Jeanette didn't see Kate, I like that they're showing she was never just perfect, sweet, and innocent, considering how fast she was to ditch nerdy Gideon to look better in front of the popular crowd, which is certainly realistic for a teenager, but it does establish a pattern of her being willing to throw other people under the bus to get the life she wants. This also showed more of her wanting desperately to become part of the It Crowd even back then, lying about how she is totally friends with all of them, and she definitely had a crush on Jamie even before they knew each other. Normally I would say all of that is just the dig eat dig world of the teenage social structure, something that most people grow out of, but with context, it does make you wonder. I also wonder if Harris was once a nerd like Gideon who was rejected by pretty girls, so he related to him and that's why he came down hard on Jeanette? Now that he is an adult in power he can finally have the pretty popular girl who would have brushed him off in high school. 

Everyone was really going full dark color grunge in 1995, even Kate's "friends" were wearing a lot of black. Jamie gaslighting Kate about seeing him kiss Jeanette was awful, I think Kate could have gotten over the kiss but not him lying to her about her own mental state after everything she went through. At least he confirmed that he lied to her later on, and while its not much, hopefully it gets Kate a bit of closure. Its so nasty watching Harris continue to groom Kate, with his creepy comments about how she "looked like an adult" at the party, he's doing it all so gradually and Kate is in such a vulnerable place with her family situation that of course she is excited to get attention from a sympathetic adult. I don't think that Kate is straight up lying about Jeanette just because she took her place as It Girl, I think she thinks she saw her, but she really saw something or someone else. 

Jeanette's dad meeting his cool bartender girlfriend before 1995 is interesting, although I am guessing that they didn't become a thing until after his life left or Jeanette probably would have already thrown something at her about breaking up her parents marriage. If Cindy started drinking heavily due to the town turning on them, maybe she's in rehab now? Or she left town and the family and is off drinking away her sorrows in Dallas with only the occasional phone call? Derek seems to be the only person in his family that is handling all of this well. Jeanette is first trying to do damage control and keep her perfect life even after Kate was found before going all bitter and angry, Cindy is drinking her sorrows away and is out of the picture by 1995, Greg is doing alright in 1994 but by 1995 is also drinking a lot and has become increasingly bitter and resentful towards Jeanette, even as he tries to stand by her, while Derek is just trying to keep things from getting worse and is really trying to be there for his sister and family while also being very honest about how Jeanette is making things look worse. 

Edited by tennisgurl
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I'm not sure if I was just a really shitty kid or if I'm looking for ways to like Jeanette. But I remember being occasionally obsessive with idolization. Though I don't think I ever actually stole/willfully absconded with someone's things. But if something was left with me, I might have failed to actively return it.

And I remember being casually cruel in the sense that I said or did things out of insecurity or fear that as an adult I regret.  I did most of those things between 12-14, so just about the age that Jeanette is in 1993 time frame.

I also didn't find her delusional belief in 1994 that she could talk to Kate and work things out to be stalkery or too out there.  If, as speculated, Jeanette truly didn't see Kate, then she thinks that 1) There is something that can be straightened out and 2) That there must be a reason Kate's doing this that can be solved. And believing that there is a way out, however unrealistic, is not so out there.

And her 1995 disaffection makes sense for having been a pariah for a year and her family falling apart over it.  I don't think she's a psycho, I think she's in survival mode.  The dad's girlfriend was right, Jeanette has built up a wall as a defense. 

As for Kate, she's easier to understand and is inherently sympathetic.  But that is because her trauma is clear and her actions are all mostly clearly motivated.  Heck, what she went through, most of the audience would probably forgive her if she did lie.

I was so please that she correctly emphasized that Jamie was gaslighting her as the true issue and walked out.  And I liked that she didn't hold a grudge, but sorry didn't fix anything either. And it likely wouldn't have even at the time.  It was a horrible thing to do to anyone, let alone a person who just went through a huge trauma. 

And yes, her smashing that headstone was very satisfying.  I think we needed to see that after watching the creepy grooming scenes. 

36 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

This is an 10 episode series, the last time I checked. We have six episodes left, not two.

Thanks.  I was super confused. 

Edited by RachelKM
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1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

I'm not sure if I was just a really shitty kid or if I'm looking for ways to like Jeanette. But I remember being occasionally obsessive with idolization. Though I don't think I ever actually stole/willfully absconded with someone's things. But if something was left with me, I might have failed to actively return it.

And I remember being casually cruel in the sense that I said or did things out of insecurity or fear that as an adult I regret.  I did most of those things between 12-14, so just about the age that Jeanette is in 1993 time frame.

I also didn't find her delusional belief in 1994 that she could talk to Kate and work things out to be stalkery or too out there.  If, as speculated, Jeanette truly didn't see Kate, then she thinks that 1) There is something that can be straightened out and 2) That there must be a reason Kate's doing this that can be solved. And believing that there is a way out, however unrealistic, is not so out there.

And her 1995 disaffection makes sense for having been a pariah for a year and her family falling apart over it.  I don't think she's a psycho, I think she's in survival mode.  The dad's girlfriend was right, Jeanette has built up a wall as a defense. 

As for Kate, she's easier to understand and is inherently sympathetic.  But that is because her trauma is clear and her actions are all mostly clearly motivated.  Heck, what she went through, most of the audience would probably forgive her if she did lie.

I was so please that she correctly emphasized that Jamie was gaslighting her as the true issue and walked out.  And I liked that she didn't hold a grudge, but sorry didn't fix anything either. And it likely wouldn't have even at the time.  It was a horrible thing to do to anyone, let alone a person who just went through a huge trauma. 

And yes, her smashing that headstone was very satisfying.  I think we needed to see that after watching the creepy grooming scenes. 

Thanks.  I was super confused. 

I agree with all of this. I think that both of them are telling the truth. We've also seen that Kate has been less than kind in 1995, but she gets a pass, because of what she went through. They both seem to be in a semi-feral state, with good reason. 

I'm glad that neither girl is with the gaslighting douchebag Jamie. 

I just saw the repeated mention of Clerks, as a wink to the fact that she's Kevin Smith's daughter. 

I saw Martin treating Jeanette, in the same way that she treated Gideon. I also think that he was like Gideon in the past (only Gideon doesn't seem to be a creep), but Kate was the pretty, popular girl that he was grooming, and Jeanette was just another girl, so he felt fine telling her off. 

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Hi!

I see two possibilities:

1)      Jeanette walked in on them, Kate and Mr. Harris, having an affair in his own house. She used to come to the house and she was interested in him. She dropped the necklace in surprise. I think it is definitely heading in this direction... So Kate doesn’t remember Jeanette seeing her imprisoned, just that she knew about their relationship – and she could have said something, to help her.

Jeanette on the other hand kept quiet - thinking she was keeping a secret. Or she easily could have been scared, or under threats.

2)

The darker version.

Jeanette was Mr. Harris accomplice in the imprisonment all along. It all began with the whole “red scrunchie situation” when they recognized they both have a bit unnatural interest in Kate... So actually Jeanette is in and out of the house all the time, during the time Kate is downstairs.

They are close. Mr. Harris helps Jeanette with the transformation. Making her a new Kate. In the meantime keeping Kate hidden, for themselves.

Kate remembers it as a dream, see isn’t very sure when exactly has she seen her, she cannot hold on to it… but she is angry. (thus maybe she connect it with "Annabelle")

 

It would explain why the whole town / Kate /the show is acting like Jeanette was actually the kidnappers accomplice!

Not a probably “innocent” passerby just peering into a window, maybe seeing something, maybe not.

And it would connect with why now Jeanette with the short hair is so down and closed off – she is afraid of giving up an even bigger secret (!), and actually missing her accomplice.

 

Which show direction would be more in your viewing TASTE?

 

Edited by bara007
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3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

This is an 10 episode series, the last time I checked. We have five episodes left, not two.

Yes, definitely 10 eps.

3 hours ago, RachelKM said:

And yes, her smashing that headstone was very satisfying.  I think we needed to see that after watching the creepy grooming scenes. 

 

I wondered about that, though -- he wasn't local so it seemed odd that he would've been buried at a cemetery in a town where he was known only for this horrific thing. Or did they take a bit of a road trip to his old town for it or something and I missed that?

 

I'm not so sure about this theory that there was a one-way mirror and that's the answer here (i.e., Kate saw Jeanette and felt she was looking at her, Jeanette only saw a reflection). Considering how many times people have been in and out of that house, and surely there would've been a lengthy investigation. Obviously the show is heavy on mirror motifs so it'll probably have something to do with it, but it seems way too easy an explanation and also pretty ridiculous that it didn't occur to anyone yet after all this. I guess part of it is that we're this far in and we still haven't heard Kate identify what actually happened in regards to Jeanette. 

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11 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

Obviously the show is heavy on mirror motifs so it'll probably have something to do with it, but it seems way too easy an explanation and also pretty ridiculous that it didn't occur to anyone yet after all this.

I agree.  I think the mirrors will somehow be involved.  But the two-way mirror idea doesn't seem reasonable without the issue of such a mirror being in the basement never being considered after investigating the scene. Also, it sort of doesn't feel right. I can't explain it better than that. 

11 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

I wondered about that, though -- he wasn't local so it seemed odd that he would've been buried at a cemetery in a town where he was known only for this horrific thing. Or did they take a bit of a road trip to his old town for it or something and I missed that?

I don't know that we have any information about his family or where he was from other than not Skylin. But you're right. If he has a hometown and family, you would think he would be buried near them. Also, someone paid for a significant grave marker despite the manner and circumstances of his death. That seems a bit odd too.

Edited by RachelKM
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2 hours ago, gesundheit said:

I'm not so sure about this theory that there was a one-way mirror and that's the answer here (i.e., Kate saw Jeanette and felt she was looking at her, Jeanette only saw a reflection). Considering how many times people have been in and out of that house, and surely there would've been a lengthy investigation. Obviously the show is heavy on mirror motifs so it'll probably have something to do with it, but it seems way too easy an explanation and also pretty ridiculous that it didn't occur to anyone yet after all this. I guess part of it is that we're this far in and we still haven't heard Kate identify what actually happened in regards to Jeanette. 

Kate did sort of identify what happened with Jeanette. She said she heard someone break into the house and move around upstairs, then leave before she could signal them. Then she looked out the window and saw Jeanette running away, then look back and lock eyes with Kate. 

I am not sure how a person running away from a house could lock eyes with someone through a basement window though...in most houses I have seen, you have to bend down to really see into a basement window. But Jeanette could have been creeping around and not running away.

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Jeanette could have looked at the basement window and still not seen Kate. I've certainly been in places where a window looked more like a mirror from the outside, especially if it's relatively dark inside and very bright outside. Which would work with the show's whole mirror theme.

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Some thoughts:

- I love how Jeanette can simultaneously be both a victim AND unlikable. She can be a lying brat, but that doesn't mean Kate's not wrong.

- I like the 'boy who cried wolf' narrative. Jeanette does all kinds of shady shit and lies but that doesn't mean she's lying about THIS.

- I like how both girls are victims in different ways.

- I think when we put the whole story together everyone will have their own truths and nobody will be wrong. Just a series of bad luck, misunderstandings, and bad coincidences. The only real "bad person" is Martin.

- I think Jeanette lost the necklace in Martin's house. Martin found it and either kept it as a souvenir or flat out gave it to Kate as a "gift." 

- Jamie's an asshole but may also be going through some survivor's guilt. His girlfriend was abducted and probably assaulted and held less than a mile away and he couldn't save her.

- Through the filter of adulthood Jeanette comes off shady AF. In the context of a socially awkward teen, though, some of her actions are not totally abnormal. Unfortunately, the Gideon thing DOES happen. Poor dude.

- Jeanette practicing what to say, both times, isn't weird to me. She's nervous and awkward. Last week the lawyer told her that her own personality and reactions weren't good enough, but Jeanette can't help feeling afraid, angry, and overwhelmed. Even though those feelings are valid, she can't be like that on the witness stand.

- I still think all teen girls are sociopathic. I wouldn't return to my teenage years for anything.

- Martin and Kate have amazing chemistry as actors, and that makes this even more unsettling to watch.

- Poor Gideon. Martin's projecting, though...wow.

- I don't think Jeanette is lying. I think she honestly didn't see Kate. So far Jeanette's reactions (going to Jamie's not as a defensive move but because she wanted to make sure he was okay and naively hunting Kate down at the county fair to talk) seem more inline with her not being guilty.

- My latest theory is that Kate went to Martin's house. She may have developed a small crush (perfectly natural) or went to talk, and had no idea how deranged he was. Maybe he made a pass at her or something and she tried to leave. He panicked and locked her in because he knew he'd lose his job, go to jail, etc. I'm sure he was planning something horrible, but he didn't seem like he was ready for a long-term hostage.

- I still think Annabelle is Martin, a la PSYCHO.

- I think the liar letter came from Kate herself. She's struggling with unwarranted, yet totally natural, guilt and shame.

- To me this isn't so much a mystery but a story about how a small town struggled in the aftermath of an abduction. Everyone's a little guilty for something, yet only 1 person is at fault.

Edited by mamadrama
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I really want to know what would cause Jeanette's dad to treat her like this. Obviously, I get that this whole situation is very fucked up, but I assume that there must be something more pointedly specific and damning to make a previously doting dad act like this to his daughter, no matter how she's acting in the midst of it.

Edited by TattleTeeny
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On 5/11/2021 at 11:47 PM, KaveDweller said:

I didn't think Jamie could sink any lower than punching his girlfriend in the face, but his trying to convince Kate she imagined his kiss was just awful.

Jeanette was cold to Gideon, but who the hell is Mr. Harris to make her feel guilty about it? He is grooming an underage girl and will eventually kidnap her. 

Really sucks for Jeanette's father to have lost his job defending his daughter. And it seems like he lost his wife over the whole thing, since she couldn't handle the scandal (although he may have also cheated). I kind of hope he gets some money.

So Clerks is Kevin Smith's movie, and Mallory is played by his daughter, so that is why she kept bringing it up? I guess it actually is a movie the character would have been into at that time.

I feel like this is going down a Mr. Harris was the nerdy kid who never got the popular girl and he is experiencing adolescent repressed feelings with Jeanette/Kate path.  

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4 hours ago, mamadrama said:

 

- I think when we put the whole story together everyone will have their own truths and nobody will be wrong. Just a series of bad luck, misunderstandings, and bad coincidences. The only real "bad person" is Martin.

 

I think this is what is going to end up happenings.  Martin is the only real villain in the story.  The rest we are all going to see through the filter of adulthood in different degrees.  We want to give Kate a pass so she can get away with things and it might be interesting if the show lets her in coming episodes where Jeannette gets called out on everything.   Yeah she is being creepy but she is an awkward teenager and that is hard and you often make mistakes you later regret.   And she probably did burn a lot of bridges to become popular and when that fell through she literally has no one not even her parents.   So.....I can understand her acting like a petulant ass.

Edited by Chaos Theory
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20 hours ago, meatball77 said:

Articles say that we will get all the answers in the finale.  This was designed to be a limited series from the start.

Could you link these articles in the Media thread? I've been wondering whether this has been billed as a limited series or not. It doesn't appear to me that they are billing it that way though and there seems to be 10 eps, not 7.

I agree that, in the end, the true villain will be only Martin, but I wonder a bit with the 'Who do you believe? #TeamJeanette #TeamKate' marketing they're doing. 

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30 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

 

Could you link these articles in the Media thread? I've been wondering whether this has been billed as a limited series or not. It doesn't appear to me that they are billing it that way though and there seems to be 10 eps, not 7.

I agree that, in the end, the true villain will be only Martin, but I wonder a bit with the 'Who do you believe? #TeamJeanette #TeamKate' marketing they're doing. 

Honestly, I think that's just a marketing campaign with a good hashtag. At the end of they day I think the answer will be "both." 

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Plus this entire story takes place in a three years span.  And an exceptionally traumatic one for almost everyone involved.   Most of the characters are still teenagers even in the “dark grunge era”..  so I can see them all being deeply confused hurt and traumatized.   So i willing to give all of them the benefit of the doubt at least for now.  

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2 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

I really want to know what would cause Jeanette's dad to treat her like this.

In 1994 her dad is totally on her side saying that what Kate is saying isn't true, while her mom seems to have doubts, plus is just pissed off in general about the town turning on them, but while he is still paying for her lawyer and is basically on her side by 1995, he is also clearly bitter towards her and seems to suspect that she's lying. It seems like he found something out about her or she did something and that made him treat her like that, it especially sounded like he thinks she might have done something, when he said how she has never hurt anyone...that he knows of. He might just be upset about how his life is turning out, even losing his business, and upset by Jeanette's' new angry grunge vibes, but it seems more intense then that. I keep coming back to Jeanette's reactions to Kate being found back in the first episode, and when Jamie punched her. She didn't just look shocked when she found out that Kate was alive and rescued, she looked afraid. It could just be her knowing that her time as the new Kate could be coming to an end (which is not a great way to respond to finding out a classmate is alive when everyone thought they were dead) or was she worried about what Kate would say? But then when Jamie punched her, she seemed totally clueless as to why he was so angry with her, when you would think she could have seen something like this coming if she was hiding this horrible secret. 

The mirrors are absolutely coming to come back into this, the house of mirrors basically spelled it out. Not only are Jeanette and Kate mirror images within the story, reflections of each other in story and character, but the mirrors Harris's basement could be the key to all of this. It seems like Kate could have easily seen Jeanette climbing around the house, as we saw her doing, and Kate saw her for Jeanette didn't see her, or Jeanette only saw her own imagine and not Kate. Or even that Kate saw her own reflection and thought it was Jeanette, who unbeknownst to her had replaced her in the outside world. Then there's whoever Annabelle is, who I have been assuming is another personality of Kate that came out due to her trauma, as we haven't found another person in the house, but maybe not? 

Kudos to the actress for really making nerdy Jeanette feel like an awkward teenage dork who could also believably transform into an It Girl in one year. It isn't just a "she wears glasses and a ponytail!" type of makeover or an unpopular kid who in any real reality would never be considered an nerd, she really does feel believable in all of her personas. 

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How old are the teens? I’m sure they’ve said but I can’t remember. I’ve been assuming 15 in 93/16 in 94/17 in 95 with I guess Derek and Kate’s sister being a year or 2 older than the Jeanette/Kate group.

When Vince was talking about the rumors that Mallory went to 2nd base with someone at the theater, did Mallory’s reaction give anyone else the vibe that maybe she had been assaulted?

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11 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I. I keep coming back to Jeanette's reactions to Kate being found back in the first episode, and when Jamie punched her. She didn't just look shocked when she found out that Kate was alive and rescued, she looked afraid. It could just be her knowing that her time as the new Kate could be coming to an end (which is not a great way to respond to finding out a classmate is alive when everyone thought they were dead) or was she worried about what Kate would say?

That reminds me...In an interview Chiara said that she was kept in the dark about her character and the ending. She only got information as needed and scripts were sent to her one episode at a time. So it's possible her reaction was simply a choice made by the actress who, like us, didn't know what was going on at the time.

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31 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

How old are the teens? I’m sure they’ve said but I can’t remember. I’ve been assuming 15 in 93/16 in 94/17 in 95 with I guess Derek and Kate’s sister being a year or 2 older than the Jeanette/Kate group.

The first episode (in '93) was Jeanette's 15th birthday.  And I thought I remembered her awkward chat with Kate at the mall, saying she was in the grade below her (so, Jeanette about a year younger than Kate).  But then I thought I remembered there was another scene (different episode) where some other characters used the grade below/grade above terminology, so now I'm not sure if both scenes happened, or I'm misremembering one of them.

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3 hours ago, Anela said:

Yay timeline!  I've been so confused by the references to them being born in 79 (I assume from the screen name Traumarama79).  Jeanette turned 15 in the 1993 part of the first episode. That would make her born in 1978.  I also thought Jeanette mentioned being a year behind Kate during that mall scene too. 

If the year behind thing is true, Kate was born in 1977 (maybe 78 if she has a very early birthday). Perhaps 79 refers to however she lost her father.  Just the psychology of young teens, it would be unlikely Jeanette would idolized a younger girl, even a very popular one. 

 

4 hours ago, mamadrama said:

That reminds me...In an interview Chiara said that she was kept in the dark about her character and the ending. She only got information as needed and scripts were sent to her one episode at a time. So it's possible her reaction was simply a choice made by the actress who, like us, didn't know what was going on at the time.

That's interesting. 

There was certainly some ambiguity in this most recent episode.  But seemed that Chiara was playing the intent to talk to Kate pretty straight and optimistic. If they aren't going for Jeanette being utterly delusional, I would think someone would tell her if it needed to be less clear.  The young woman definitely has the acting chops to be ambiguous as has been amply shown. 

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2 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

That's interesting. 

There was certainly some ambiguity in this most recent episode.  But seemed that Chiara was playing the intent to talk to Kate pretty straight and optimistic. If they aren't going for Jeanette being utterly delusional, I would think someone would tell her if it needed to be less clear.  The young woman definitely has the acting chops to be ambiguous as has been amply shown. 

Yes, the way she was searching for Kate to clear everything up said "this is a misunderstanding and we can fix it" more than "I gotta go find her and lie my ass off." She seemed genuinely bewildered when Jamie punched her and she wasn't wrong (or being mean) when she told Jamie that Kate may be confused because of her trauma. And damn him for using that same argument ON Kate. Glad she dumped his ass. 

I don't trust Mallory. I think she's shifty. 

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2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Yes, the way she was searching for Kate to clear everything up said "this is a misunderstanding and we can fix it" more than "I gotta go find her and lie my ass off." She seemed genuinely bewildered when Jamie punched her and she wasn't wrong (or being mean) when she told Jamie that Kate may be confused because of her trauma. And damn him for using that same argument ON Kate. Glad she dumped his ass. 

I don't trust Mallory. I think she's shifty. 

Completely this, about not trusting Mallory. I need to know a little more about how she wound up hanging out with Kate. Like, how'd she wind up exactly where Jeannette wanted to be, hanging out with Kate? I'm not explaining this right because typing on my kindle sucks.😥 Since I'm amongst people with brains, y'all know what I mean 😆

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2 minutes ago, tveyeonyou said:

Completely this, about not trusting Mallory. I need to know a little more about how she wound up hanging out with Kate. Like, how'd she wind up exactly where Jeannette wanted to be, hanging out with Kate? I'm not explaining this right because typing on my kindle sucks.😥 Since I'm amongst people with brains, y'all know what I mean 😆

Cindy seemed to idoolize Joy and coveted her lifestyle. Jeanette had a girl crush on Kate and kind of obsessed about her. I wonder if Mallory did, too. Her taking up with Kate kind of came out of left field. If we're looking at mirror images, though, Mallory and Kate shouldn't be any less weird than Jeanette and Kate's friends. Everyone on the show seems to want something or someone they can't have, and if they DO get them then they've done it by immoral, unethical, or just flat out weird ways. 

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Oh, @tennisgurl, I dig your post, but my issue was less about the “concrete” and/or “logical” reasons and more about that he’s still her dad who (I assume) loves her. I guess I’m probably projecting, in a way, because I really feel that I could do just about anything and my dad would still be on my side (even if, in his mind, he wasn’t). I don’t think I’m articulating this very well!

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15 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

Oh, @tennisgurl, I dig your post, but my issue was less about the “concrete” and/or “logical” reasons and more about that he’s still her dad who (I assume) loves her. I guess I’m probably projecting, in a way, because I really feel that I could do just about anything and my dad would still be on my side (even if, in his mind, he wasn’t). I don’t think I’m articulating this very well!

I'm also curious about this.  But part of me wonders if part of it was just the slow dawning on Greg  of the changeability Jeanette has displayed and mounting evidence of small scale but widespread deceit. 

In 1993, Jeanette was clearly a daddy's girl and she was awkward, sweet seeming, and somewhat socially immature.  It was easy for him to view her as his little girl.  Even as she "blossomed" into a moderately popular girl, her outward projected personality was something he could continue to see as his sweet, honest, nerdy daughter was just maturing. 

Both the 1993 and 94 personas gave no hint to of her fluency with obfuscating and lying, something she seemed to be developing a taste for literally in front of us starting with the the hide and seek game and successfully getting away with lying to Martin.  No one who saw the change in Jeanette, particularly no one who knew her as the eager, apparently guileless pre-15 persona, would see anything more than gaining confidence and a still good kid.

But the combination of a sullen, belligerent, caustic and more apparently casually deceitful/withholding personality with a persistent accusation by a person who has no apparent motivation to lie about Jeanette having done something awful has eroded his confidence that he really ever knew her at all and his ability to place blind faith in her.

Add a healthy dose of resentment that he might feel (even if he felt guilty about it) even without his eroding faith in her innocence and you get the mess Greg appears to be in 1995.

Anyway, that was the result of my thought experiment on the situation with a heavy dose of speculation.

Edited by RachelKM
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Others here have talked about Jeanette's reaction when she first heard that Kate had been found - how she seemed nervous versus surprised or startled - that's sort of true, but also, her gut assumption was that Kate had been found dead, and she had to be corrected. Now imagine that she HAD seen Kate in Martin's basement, told no one in order to preserve her social status, heard Kate had been found, assumed she'd been found dead and THAT was her reaction, even for a split second. Not being freaked out at the extremity of a peer being murdered partially because of her own silence and complicity but more 'oh she's dead? I knew she would be eventually given how I last saw her." I don't think Jeannette is that much of a socio- or psychopath. Which leads me to believe she actually didn't know about Kate in the basement. 

I admit this is not totally germane to this particular episode thread except for the ominous nature of her dad's "never hurt a fly ... that I know of" caveat.

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It is kind of hard to gage knowing that Chiara Aurelia doesn't know herself. Again I really am hoping that Jeanette isn't sociopathic enough to keep quiet about a girl being trapped in a basement because she wanted her asshole boyfriend. 

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32 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

It is kind of hard to gage knowing that Chiara Aurelia doesn't know herself. Again I really am hoping that Jeanette isn't sociopathic enough to keep quiet about a girl being trapped in a basement because she wanted her asshole boyfriend. 

yes but the episode's director and editor would know all the different options they needed so I'm sure they had her play a variety of tones and they just chose what worked best for the ultimate story. (meaning what we saw was not the only thing the actress performed)

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18 hours ago, tveyeonyou said:

Completely this, about not trusting Mallory. I need to know a little more about how she wound up hanging out with Kate. Like, how'd she wind up exactly where Jeannette wanted to be, hanging out with Kate? I'm not explaining this right because typing on my kindle sucks.😥 Since I'm amongst people with brains, y'all know what I mean 😆

Did you see the scene where they met in the therapist’s office? Their friendship checks out to me. They instantly bonded and opened up to each other about their “issues” that required therapy. Seemingly they each felt like finally someone I can talk to about my problems and not have to worry about what they’d think of me. They also each didn’t really have anyone else at the time: Mallory had lost Kate (but had Vince) and Kate no longer related to her old friends. Mallory even said that she was surprised Kate was nice—I think she even said she used to think she was a bitch—so the whole 360 on Mallory’s impression of Kate was expressed in that scene. 

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I believe Jeannette definitely kept the scrunchy as part of her idolization of Kate - "I have something that belongs to my idol!"  And I believe Jeannette definitely had a crush on Martin in 1994, which would lead to her going in and out of his house whenever she feels like it to feel "close" to him.  

Which makes me wonder:

1) Does she see Kate in Martin's house and get jealous that Kate gets all the "great" guys, and just run off because she feels hurt?  

2) Does she feel betrayed by Kate somehow before the kidnapping and somehow orchestrate things so she essentially delivers Kate right to Martin's door, in order to (in her own mind) gain favor with him and get back at Kate at the same time?

3) Does Jeannette do something out of line to make Martin hold her crush on him over her head, and use it was leverage to get her to bring him Kate?  Remember, Jeannette was pleased to tell Martin that she'd see Kate and could give her the scrunchy back, so he knows she knows Kate and considers them friendly.

Somehow, some way, Jeannette's interest in Martin has to play into this.

And I agree with those who have said that Martin sees himself in Gideon and rips into Jeannette out of empathy, while savoring the idea of getting the most popular girl in school at last.  I believe that whatever Martin does and ends up doing is going to tie directly back to that.

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