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ElectricBoogaloo

S05.E14: The Music and the Mirror

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On 5/13/2021 at 10:25 AM, cameron said:

People are probably remarking about Chrissy's weight because of all the items on the internet alluding to her major weight loss.  She is definitely in an unhealthy area with her weight.  

I am constantly noticing the camera angles trying to get multiple actors in the shot. They are working hard at it and it shows. 

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On 5/12/2021 at 2:56 PM, ProudMary said:

What Kevin wanted all along was to have children somewhere down the line. It's the reason he broke up with you.

 

14 hours ago, kili said:

He didn't break up with Zoe, Zoe broke up with him. She realized that he wanted to have babies, but would sublimate that want for the sake of the relationship. She didn't want to be the reason he didn't have kids. He said that he made his choice and she told him that he made the wrong choice.  He wouldn't break up with her because he didn't get what he wanted - so she had to break up with him so he could get what he wanted.

Yep, Zoe was the one to end it. Also, if I recall correctly, Kevin made a comment that essentially alluded to "you'll change your mind," and Zoe got a look on her face that was basically like "uh oh," because I'm sure she'd heard that before and she knows herself well enough to know that she won't change her mind. And THEN I think he decided that a relationship with Zoe was enough, but Zoe knew it wasn't in part because of whatever that comment was (I can't remember now). She knew he really wanted kids, in his heart of hearts.

2 hours ago, Sake614 said:

Agree with others who said Chrissy looks even bigger than before.

I noticed when she was in her bathrobe too, like someone else said.

K-Ci and Jojo! Ah, memories ... (I am actually sick of that song BECAUSE it was absolutely everywhere in its day.)

5 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I have my doubts on Madison and Kevin but they work ok, they are this close to the wedding and they have twins--although I would normally say you don't just marry someone when you are not sure--when you have just had twins together and work well enough, you should follow through. Give it a go. As my husband once said (in response my despair when a sibling announcing a wedding that we knew was not the right match), "they can always get divorced." (and they did). 

I am indifferent to Madison - actually, I like basically all of Kevin's exes better (I loved Zoe with him, even though I am glad she stuck to her guns about kids). But I am inclined to agree. I don't believe they're in love, but I don't really think they have to be - as Kevin said, his great loves will be his kids. He and Madison could have a companionable kind of relationship, rather than a burning hot one.  As @txhorns79 said, if she weren't the mother of his kids, I don't think they'd be together, but that doesn't necessarily mean they won't have a good life.

I don't think Madison deserves to be left at the altar, but I honestly don't care that much about their relationship, or about his worries about the road not taken. (Also if he were to get back with Sophie AGAIN, if I'm Sophie's friend I'm like "Here we go again with this bullshit," because ... come on.)

On 5/13/2021 at 11:28 AM, TV Diva Queen said:

Too much TV for me......when they showed Toby's dad, I was like "isn't he dead"  and then I thought..."No Kevin Arnold's dad is dead"  LOL  

Ha! That's who Dan Lauria will always be to me, too.

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Edit:  Nevermind -- just saw the previews where now Kevin is so confused.  JFC. 

 

"You could be craving pizza all day and then I say I want sushi and suddenly you crave sushi...it's a lovely thing."

Um, what?

Weird analogy.  I've changed my mind about what I wanted to eat b/c something sounded better.  This doesn't seem like it could be extrapolated into a character trait.

And what exactly is this character trait?  He didn't want Madison...and now it's all he wants?  He morphs into everyone a la Brad Pitt when he morphed into whomever he dated?  

This comment to me sounds like it will be a turning point to him -- as if it woke him up to his character.  So what does that mean?  

Edited by Boo Boo
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On 5/13/2021 at 8:14 AM, JayDub1987 said:

My wife and I are both still hoping that Kevin and Sophie end up together. It's more of a personal deal for us since we got a divorce and got remarried I suppose, but we're holding onto a sliver of hope. I like Madison, but I'm still pulling for Kevin and Sophie.

Sure, but this is different because Kevin and Madison have kids together,  not Kevin and Sophie. 

I'm never going to hope for parents of young children to split up just because there might be something better out there.

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 I hope Kevin and Madison do not marry. At least not now. And not because I still have a tiny bit of shipping left in me for Kevin and Sophie.

I think Kevin is head over heels in love with his babies and this family and this life he's always wanted but never thought he'd have.

I think he is in love with the idea of being in love, especially with the mother of his babies, and drawn to her having her own share of baggage.

I think he loves her as the mother of his children.

But he is not in love with her. No matter how much he wants to be in love with her.

And not because he's still in love with Zoe or Sophie but because he just isn't and I was rooting for them for a time because I wanted them both to have a family, for the babies, but also for the families they didn't get growing up (Madison) or the one they were robbed of when far too young (Kevin). But therein lies the problem.

It's not enough for them to get married to give the twins a home and a family because fast forward to when the twins are grown and gone (or even busy teens). I've seen many a seemingly happy, long-term marriage implode because of the whole "staying together for the kids" excuse doesn't work when said kids are out of the house or at minimum, independent, and there's little left for their parents to say to one another at that point because the foundation of the marriage was something other than love for each other. 

I feel them getting married would be a mistake in the end. Let them co-parent and find other partners whom they are totally head over heels for and yes, I know passion fades, but there's none of that with them and never has been. And maybe there never will be that great passion like Rebecca and Jack, but life is too damn short to settle. They deserve better than that. Their children deserve better than that.

I'm not even sure Madison is in love with Kevin, but rather grateful he stepped up to be there for her and the twins and doesn't seem to mind her quirks.

The fact that they have never, ever said "I love you" in all this time, not even when swept up in the emotions when the twins were born tells me so much.

I would love to be proven wrong, of course, but I don't think I will be.

Even if they make it down that aisle and to the "I now pronounce you part." That's a wedding, which hardly a marriage makes.

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42 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I've seen many a seemingly happy, long-term marriage implode because of the whole "staying together for the kids" excuse doesn't work when said kids are out of the house or at minimum, independent, and there's little left for their parents to say to one another at that point because the foundation of the marriage was something other than love for each other. 

A friend of my brother's parents split up when their youngest child left home because they realized all the had in common was the kids. They had their first child pretty early, less than two years in, I think, and then when they were empty nesters they were like " ... Huh. Is this it?" and split up.

44 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I'm not even sure Madison is in love with Kevin, but rather grateful he stepped up to be there for her and the twins and doesn't seem to mind her quirks.

IIRC Madison said something like "I've fallen in love with the idea of our family" in a previous episode, which is not the same as being in love with Kevin. I think they are BOTH in love with the idea of a family (probably particularly so for Madison since she apparently doesn't have one*), but I don't think they're in love with each other.

*And I'm with whoever wondered what kind of work emergency Madison's father has. I assume the wedding is not tomorrow, so what is he doing? Maybe it was a cover and he just doesn't want to come.

I thought the depiction of Beth's business closing was very well done (and sad). I have friends who own a restaurant and they are holding on, but it's been very hard - I can think of a bunch of restaurants I know or used to go to that have closed permanently.

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9 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

*And I'm with whoever wondered what kind of work emergency Madison's father has. I assume the wedding is not tomorrow, so what is he doing? Maybe it was a cover and he just doesn't want to come.

Maybe it requires a weeks-long trip to Japan...

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2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Sure, but this is different because Kevin and Madison have kids together,  not Kevin and Sophie. 

I'm never going to hope for parents of young children to split up just because there might be something better out there.

I don't feel a lot of guilt about hoping for a fictional family to break up. 

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I’m tired of Kevin being the flighty one who can’t commit.  I also hate the “first love is your only love and true soulmate” trope played out in every bad Hallmark movie.  I want Kevin to think about it and have his cold feet, but realize love isn’t all thunderclaps and romance, but sometimes sneaks up on you as the culmination of a hundred small gestures and choices.  Whoever suggested he talk with Rebecca - brilliant idea!!!

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3 hours ago, CountryGirl said:


The fact that they have never, ever said "I love you" in all this time, not even when swept up in the emotions when the twins were born tells me so much.

Do we know if they have ever even had sex except the one time when the twins were conceived? 

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10 hours ago, Empress1 said:

K-Ci and Jojo! Ah, memories ... (I am actually sick of that song BECAUSE it was absolutely everywhere in its day.)

I remember at some point they were the musical guests for some beauty pageant (Miss Universe, maybe?) where they sang "All My Life" on a seemingly endless loop while EVERY SINGLE CONTESTANT came out one at a time in their gowns.

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On 5/12/2021 at 8:31 PM, Crs97 said:

I totally can see Kevin go the writing/directing route

Kevin becomes Dan Fogelman, married to Dan Fogelman's wife, and creating a breakthrough family drama called Three Rivers, with his painting from the first season as the title card. 

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20 hours ago, BC4ME said:

Do we know if they have ever even had sex except the one time when the twins were conceived? 

That was it and he regretted it. He also was sleeping with others at the time including Cassidy's one time that Nicky saw.  Well not asking about birth control or failing to use it 'in the moment", brought repercussions. Love was never there but he wasn't going to leave a woman who was friends with his sister and she said "children to him, twins". I still say a single baby wouldn't have the story as full of angst, it was always twins so they could have him nervous about when she delivers, how to take care of them and everyone including Kevin knew she would have a very hard time alone without family. Kate had 2 of her own.  He loves his babies but Madison? He cares, it might change, but it might always be the babies. Would that be enough? IDK.

This is how Justin explained the one night stand

https://people.com/tv/this-is-us-justin-hartley-explains-why-kevin-got-in-bed-with-madison/

It also explains that Sophie's Mom Claire told Kevin not to settle, Zoe just saw it also, later. He had to earn that ring and he wanted to be that man for his "second mom" and Sophie.

Edited by debraran
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13 hours ago, BC4ME said:

Do we know if they have ever even had sex except the one time when the twins were conceived? 

Yes they’re sleeping together. Have been for months.

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Kevin’s default position has always been Selfish Ass. I hope he’s not making another regression. I like Madison. 

My home remodeling husband got seriously annoyed at that drywall scene.

If the first baby outfit was a Godfather Onesie, shouldn’t the other be a Godfather Twosie? 😉

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2 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

My home remodeling husband got seriously annoyed at that drywall scene.

I know nothing about fixing leaks but even I know you can’t fix a hole and then paint over it in a matter of hours! What happens if the leak comes back? 🙄

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On 5/12/2021 at 2:31 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I still get weird vibes from Madison (pathologicl liar would not surprise me, nor would kill-you-in-your-sleep psychopath)

Could we find out that Madiosn is a psychopatic serial killer who's been evading the police for years, but is finally caught, just in time for the season finale? The police could barge into the wedding as they're saying their I do's and arrest her. She gets a life sentence and we get rid of her.

 

Now that's what I'd call a happy ending.

Edited by Norma Desmond
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5 hours ago, Norma Desmond said:

Could we find out that Madiosn is a psychopatic serial killer who's been evading the police for years, but is finally caught, just in time for the season finale? The police could barge into the wedding as they're saying their I do's and arrest her. She gets a life sentence and we get rid of her.

 

Now that's what I'd call a happy ending.

But Dan sleeps with her and might not like to do that. lol

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I'd like to tell Zoe and her echoing voice in Kevin's head to just shut up.  Might Kevin and Madison get divorced after the kids are grown?  Maybe, or maybe they will have so many wonderful experiences and so much history together by then that they wouldn't dream of parting.  Either way they will have given their children a long secure childhood with two parents in the home. 

I've never understood parents of children saying they're afraid to get married because they might get divorced someday.  I know divorce is really hard on kids, but so is growing up in a single parent home.  Kevin just being "in the twins life" is not at all the same thing as a father actually physically present, the bonding and security that children get from that just can't be compensated for by visits and gifts.

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If Kevin does not go through with the wedding because he truly isn't all in where Madison is concerned (even if he is all in with the twins), I will actually think of that as the furthet thing from regressing or being an immature ass. 

Him not going through with a wedding to a woman he does not truly love is him doing the right thing, not just for himself, but for Madison and the twins as well. He can be the father his children need and the co-parent Madison needs without marrying her. He shouldn't have to settle or pretend and neither should Madison as again, I don't think she's in love with him anymore than he is with him and them loving their twins isn't enough to sustain a marriage. It just isn't.

It's taking a huge gamble with their own lives and those of their children to just "go for it" and hope for the best. 

Better he realize it now and pull back than be swept up in emotions and excitement that will be fleeting all too soon. 

This isn't a situation where they were engaged and planning to be married and then "oops, we're having a baby." They weren't dating or even friends with benefits. They had a one-night stand that resulted in the twins' conception and but for that, they would never, ever have interacted again except, perhaps, an event having to do with Kate or her kids. 

Of course, I was rooting for them to make it as a viable couple, but when I peeled back the layers on that, I realized it was because of the twins. And that's problematic because most marriages "for the kids" rarely work out or, if they don't divorce when the kids are grown and gone, they aren't what I would call happy.

I know of at least 30 couples from the time I was in highschool to within the last decade who married only after they had a child. Only two of the couples are still together and happy. Those aren't good odds. 

I don't see Kevin as just doing an every other weekend type of thing but having some sort of shared parenting/custody with Madison where they split time each week. And yes, of course, it's ideal if a child can be raised in a home with two loving parents, who love the child and love each other, but that isn't the only way. I was raised by a single mother and she gave me everything I could have ever needed and wanted. Better by far to be from a broken home than living in one.

 

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1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Better he realize it now and pull back than be swept up in emotions and excitement that will be fleeting all too soon. 

Swept up in emotions and excitement that will be fleeting soon was exactly where I was when I married my first husband.  We were so passionately in love I actually experienced that dopamine fueled sensation of walking on air.  We got married in a fever and the whole thing had fizzled out by the time I got pregnant a few months later.  We stayed together for ten rather dull years, but we we both adored our son and enjoyed him all that time. 

Then I got caught up in the whole idea of  finding myself and looking for  something better and asked for a divorce.  We did the joint custody thing, I got an apartment a block away and my son spent half the week with his father and half with me.  He was miserable.  I was miserable because he was miserable, even though I was soon going with someone much more compatible.  If I had it to do over I would do that much scorned thing and "stay together for the children."

I'm glad you added your experience,  Country Girl.  This sort of discussion never has right or wrong answers, but I think people considering marriage or single parenting need to hear all the POVs.

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Excellent perspective @JudyObscure.

ITA that you need more than the infatuation/dopamine rush because that will ebb and flow and there's needs to be a stronger foundation to make a marriage work.

I just don't see any love or lust or anything approaching either with Kevin and Madison and them happening into having children via one-night stand encounter and Kevin being there for Madison once he learned the news isn't enough of a foundation either. Other than the twins, what do they have, really?

The getting married for the kids or staying married for the kids is, for me, not a good enough reason and the kids are the ones who ultimately pay the price. Because it doesn't have to rise to the level of verbal (let alone physical) abuse for them to realize mom and dad don't seem all that happy.

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I liked this episode ok.  Loved the dance scene and the song by the kids.  😻
 

Toby, most of us adults try to keep our parents OFF of ladders.  Falls and fractures are not a senior’s friend.  🙄
 

I have no preference with regard to who Kevin marries.  I just hope that if he can’t go through with it that he lets her know a day before and not at the alter.  Not showing up at the venue, as the other person stands there all dressed up, is wrong on so many levels.  For one, it’s so overdone in tv and movies...omg, how many of those must we endure?  Big and Cary (SITC) infuriated me and I’ve had no patience for that kind of thing since.  I would hope these writers could be a little more creative than leaving Madison at the alter or Kevin telling her he can’t do it in front of their guests.  There are other ways to create drama.
 

 

Edited by SunnyBeBe
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9 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I'd like to tell Zoe and her echoing voice in Kevin's head to just shut up.  Might Kevin and Madison get divorced after the kids are grown?  Maybe, or maybe they will have so many wonderful experiences and so much history together by then that they wouldn't dream of parting.  Either way they will have given their children a long secure childhood with two parents in the home. 

I've never understood parents of children saying they're afraid to get married because they might get divorced someday.  I know divorce is really hard on kids, but so is growing up in a single parent home.  Kevin just being "in the twins life" is not at all the same thing as a father actually physically present, the bonding and security that children get from that just can't be compensated for by visits and gifts.

I love that you get that there are two babies, twins, involved and that it's just not how many sparks sizzle and fireworks fly when Madison and Kevin are together for sexy times.

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19 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

you need more than the infatuation/dopamine rush because that will ebb and flow and there's needs to be a stronger foundation to make a marriage work.

I just don't see any love or lust or anything approaching either with Kevin and Madison and them happening into having children via one-night stand encounter and Kevin being there for Madison once he learned the news isn't enough of a foundation either. Other than the twins, what do they have, really?

The getting married for the kids or staying married for the kids is, for me, not a good enough reason and the kids are the ones who ultimately pay the price. Because it doesn't have to rise to the level of verbal (let alone physical) abuse for them to realize mom and dad don't seem all that happy.

I agree - I don't think anyone should get married just because someone got knocked up. For me, the only reason to get married is because you know that this is the person who you want to spend the rest of your life with. I know more than one person who got pregnant as the relationship was ending and chose not to get married/stay together just because they were having a kid. These couples coparent happily in separate households and have gone on to be involved with/get married to other people. Just because your parents don't live together doesn't mean you grow up unloved or unhappy.

More importantly, kids see how their parents interact, how they live, how they treat each other, and how they feel. As we have (sometimes unfortunately) seen with the Big Three, kids use their parents as a model of what a relationship is. I'd rather have a kid who sees that their parents don't live together but are happy than show my kid that marriage is a relationship where you settle for someone you don't really like a whole lot because you have an obligation due to having a child. You can be a responsible person and a loving parent without being married or living together. Sure, it can be more complicated but it's worth it to be happy. You should light up when you see your spouse, not think, "Oh, great. It's you again."

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1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I agree - I don't think anyone should get married just because someone got knocked up. For me, the only reason to get married is because you know that this is the person who you want to spend the rest of your life with. I know more than one person who got pregnant as the relationship was ending and chose not to get married/stay together just because they were having a kid. These couples coparent happily in separate households and have gone on to be involved with/get married to other people. Just because your parents don't live together doesn't mean you grow up unloved or unhappy.

More importantly, kids see how their parents interact, how they live, how they treat each other, and how they feel. As we have (sometimes unfortunately) seen with the Big Three, kids use their parents as a model of what a relationship is. I'd rather have a kid who sees that their parents don't live together but are happy than show my kid that marriage is a relationship where you settle for someone you don't really like a whole lot because you have an obligation due to having a child. You can be a responsible person and a loving parent without being married or living together. Sure, it can be more complicated but it's worth it to be happy. You should light up when you see your spouse, not think, "Oh, great. It's you again."

YESSS to all of this, especially the bolded.

In addition to knowing plenty of couples (several of whom ended up married after having a child while still in their teens), I have a few friends whose parents did exactly what is being suggested that Kevin do - marry because someone got pregnant. Only to divorce when my friends were in their teens, mostly within weeks or months of the milestone highschool graduation. Finding out that they were the sole reason their parents, who were clearly miserable together (especially with hindsight), stuck it out is a mindfuck for these now-adults.

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What can I say about this episode other than I loved it.  Kate thanking Rebecca and telling Rebecca that she was a good mom is what I feel like every mom would want to here.  My daughter is only three and I know I would fucking love it if some day when she is an adult she would say that to me.  Rebecca is a great mom.

Now that I am 100% on the Madison train this show better not take that from me!  Calling herself a Pippa at best (what’s wrong with that?!), her reaction to the dress having pockets, “going there” regarding Rebecca’s Alzheimer’s in her worse scenario (omg).  I’m in love.  Fuck off, Zoe.  I actually liked her a lot until this episode.  Kevin isn’t settling, he specifically wanted a family and that’s what he’s making for himself.  A part of making a relationship work is compromising, it’s called being unselfish.  It doesn’t mean you are not happy.  Of fucking course Kevin is going to latch on and obsess over this.  I really hope the wedding still happens.

Add me to the list who thinks Uncle Nicky will find the perfect script for Kevin.  He mentioned a Tom Clancy movie and Kevin poo-pooed it.  My money is on that one.

Randall (who usually drives me insane and not in a good way) and Beth are really such a wonderful couple.  The song at the end and Randall just being there for Beth was beautiful.  Even the flashbacks didn’t bother me this episode.  Loved.

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On 5/14/2021 at 2:15 PM, Boo Boo said:

"You could be craving pizza all day and then I say I want sushi and suddenly you crave sushi...it's a lovely thing."

Um, what?

Weird analogy.  I've changed my mind about what I wanted to eat b/c something sounded better.  This doesn't seem like it could be extrapolated into a character trait.

I agree and also...who gives a shit?  That’s such a trivial thing.  What, is Kevin supposed to get into some sort of heated debate over what he wants for dinner?  It’s called compromising.  Zoe really came across as condescending with that comment.  Just say congratulations and be done with it.

I think he does stand his ground when it comes to important things, like the times he has had to walk away from his work commitments because his family needed him.

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23 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Might Kevin and Madison get divorced after the kids are grown?  Maybe, or maybe they will have so many wonderful experiences and so much history together by then that they wouldn't dream of parting.  Either way they will have given their children a long secure childhood with two parents in the home. 

I completely get this, even if it’s an unpopular opinion.  Now of course, it’s different if you can’t stand each other and are constantly at each other’s throats, or if there is any type of abusive situation involved.  Then by all means, don’t get married, get divorced, do what you have to do to be in a healthy situation for your children.  BUT, if two people are able to provide a secure, stable home for their children and they genuinely love and respect each other, I do think they should stay together, even if maybe there isn’t that burning passion.  There are more important things.

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4 hours ago, mostlylurking said:

I completely get this, even if it’s an unpopular opinion.  Now of course, it’s different if you can’t stand each other and are constantly at each other’s throats, or if there is any type of abusive situation involved.  Then by all means, don’t get married, get divorced, do what you have to do to be in a healthy situation for your children.  BUT, if two people are able to provide a secure, stable home for their children and they genuinely love and respect each other, I do think they should stay together, even if maybe there isn’t that burning passion.  There are more important things.

Actually the quote was from JudyObscure and I just agreed.

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On 5/12/2021 at 4:23 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Isn’t Toby getting unemployment benefits?

Also, what about the stimulus checks?

On 5/12/2021 at 8:17 PM, Ohmo said:

Me too...because I think she loves him, and I think part of him loves her.  I hated how a seed was planted at his agent's office. Zoe didn't beed to go there, and Sophie?  Let's hope nothing happens next week.  I have no issue with Sophie.  Truly.  However, that ship has sailed.  Why can't it be that Kevin and Madison have simply grown to love each other?

Wish that Beth would have been able to keep the studio, but Randall did well at the end.  Less is sometimes more, and he managed to be able to do less.

My pet peeve was Kate:.  These kids...Kate, Jack is also one of "these" kids.  Are you going to "other" him like that?  Those choir members are kids...not these kids...just kids.  Jack was not put on this Earth to make Kate feel all warm and fuzzy about herself.  Jack is his own person.  Kate is also not qualified enough to direct a choir.  I can't remember if she actually got her degree or not, but even if she has a degree, she's had it for about five minutes...and now she's a wondrous choir director.  Eye roll.

But she has such great energy that she was hired on the spot... way ahead of more experienced and qualified people. I call this the Pearson exception.

On 5/12/2021 at 8:51 PM, madmax said:

Only because Deja told him many times not to.

That would be great!!!

The whole timing of this show is confusing.

Oh, come on.  One superfast trip to Home Depot, who manages to have everything you need in stock, magically fast-drying spackling that didn't need to be sanded because there wasn't a shit ton of dust everywhere, the exact same paint left in the can that still matched the paint that had been on the ceiling for years.  Sure, it could happen.  🙄

I hate that they did it, but since they did, let's make it more consistent.  Mask up when masks are supposed to be worn.  Don't take them off to have a conversation.  And the Beth storyline truly wouldn't have worked, anyway.  Lock-down happened before everyone was wearing masks, so she couldn't have dance class in masks, especially with them all way less than 6 feet apart.

 

I'm glad they finally addressed the multiple times Kevin has left a production.  Even a shitty production.  I think, as @nilyank said above, Nicky will find him a script, but he'll decide to direct and get his Oscar that way.

For some reason that drywall scene really bugged me. They made it look like it took 20 minutes to fix everything. They made it look as easy as changing a light bulb.

On 5/14/2021 at 6:04 PM, Empress1 said:

A friend of my brother's parents split up when their youngest child left home because they realized all the had in common was the kids. They had their first child pretty early, less than two years in, I think, and then when they were empty nesters they were like " ... Huh. Is this it?" and split up.

IIRC Madison said something like "I've fallen in love with the idea of our family" in a previous episode, which is not the same as being in love with Kevin. I think they are BOTH in love with the idea of a family (probably particularly so for Madison since she apparently doesn't have one*), but I don't think they're in love with each other.

*And I'm with whoever wondered what kind of work emergency Madison's father has. I assume the wedding is not tomorrow, so what is he doing? Maybe it was a cover and he just doesn't want to come.

I thought the depiction of Beth's business closing was very well done (and sad). I have friends who own a restaurant and they are holding on, but it's been very hard - I can think of a bunch of restaurants I know or used to go to that have closed permanently.

It breaks my heart to see how so many small businesses have closed shop because there was no way they could have prepared for the Pandemic. Restaurants that have been running for decades have closed in my area.

On 5/15/2021 at 7:19 PM, 30 Helens said:

Kevin’s default position has always been Selfish Ass. I hope he’s not making another regression. I like Madison. 

My home remodeling husband got seriously annoyed at that drywall scene.

If the first baby outfit was a Godfather Onesie, shouldn’t the other be a Godfather Twosie? 😉

I am with your husband...Toby and his father would have to be wizards to fix everything that fast.

On 5/15/2021 at 10:03 PM, Sake614 said:

I know nothing about fixing leaks but even I know you can’t fix a hole and then paint over it in a matter of hours! What happens if the leak comes back? 🙄

Perhaps the Pearson magic is rubbing off on Toby.

On 5/17/2021 at 8:59 AM, CountryGirl said:

If Kevin does not go through with the wedding because he truly isn't all in where Madison is concerned (even if he is all in with the twins), I will actually think of that as the furthet thing from regressing or being an immature ass. 

Him not going through with a wedding to a woman he does not truly love is him doing the right thing, not just for himself, but for Madison and the twins as well. He can be the father his children need and the co-parent Madison needs without marrying her. He shouldn't have to settle or pretend and neither should Madison as again, I don't think she's in love with him anymore than he is with him and them loving their twins isn't enough to sustain a marriage. It just isn't.

It's taking a huge gamble with their own lives and those of their children to just "go for it" and hope for the best. 

Better he realize it now and pull back than be swept up in emotions and excitement that will be fleeting all too soon. 

This isn't a situation where they were engaged and planning to be married and then "oops, we're having a baby." They weren't dating or even friends with benefits. They had a one-night stand that resulted in the twins' conception and but for that, they would never, ever have interacted again except, perhaps, an event having to do with Kate or her kids. 

Of course, I was rooting for them to make it as a viable couple, but when I peeled back the layers on that, I realized it was because of the twins. And that's problematic because most marriages "for the kids" rarely work out or, if they don't divorce when the kids are grown and gone, they aren't what I would call happy.

I know of at least 30 couples from the time I was in highschool to within the last decade who married only after they had a child. Only two of the couples are still together and happy. Those aren't good odds. 

I don't see Kevin as just doing an every other weekend type of thing but having some sort of shared parenting/custody with Madison where they split time each week. And yes, of course, it's ideal if a child can be raised in a home with two loving parents, who love the child and love each other, but that isn't the only way. I was raised by a single mother and she gave me everything I could have ever needed and wanted. Better by far to be from a broken home than living in one.

 

Does anyone find it strange that they are writing Madison to basically have nothing in the way of family and friends besides the Pearsons? They are probably doing this because they can not hire a bunch of new actors for the Coronavirus but Toby had family and friends.

I am sure we will magically see a bunch of friends and relatives when they do the bachelorette parties because a party with just Kate and Rebecca is going to suck.

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On 5/11/2021 at 10:03 PM, PepSinger said:

This is one of my favorite episodes -- if not my most favorite episode -- of the season. Everyone's storylines were well done. I related to so many of the little moments -- Beth finding the last clover; Madison's EXCITEMENT about her wedding dress having pockets (What woman can't relate????) -- and then the icing on the cake was the KC and JoJo at the end. Loved it.

I'm a Randall and Beth fan so as painful as it was watching Beth lose her studio, watching them dance was one of their best scenes.

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4 hours ago, qtpye said:

They made it look like it took 20 minutes to fix everything. They made it look as easy as changing a light bulb.

Or maybe Kate had been gone for a week and they didn't notice.

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just adding I'm normally not in favor of getting married just because of a pregnancy--but for Kevin to get this close and to have had many nice bonding moments with Madison--I feel like in his case there is enough to move forward. 

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15 hours ago, qtpye said:

Does anyone find it strange that they are writing Madison to basically have nothing in the way of family and friends besides the Pearsons? They are probably doing this because they can not hire a bunch of new actors for the Coronavirus but Toby had family and friends.

I am sure we will magically see a bunch of friends and relatives when they do the bachelorette parties because a party with just Kate and Rebecca is going to suck.

It’s canon that Madison doesn’t have friends.  She’s very insecure and her eating disorder didn’t help matters. So I don’t expect a gaggle of friends to suddenly appear.

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On 5/14/2021 at 3:04 PM, Empress1 said:

 

*And I'm with whoever wondered what kind of work emergency Madison's father has. I assume the wedding is not tomorrow, so what is he doing? Maybe it was a cover and he just doesn't want to come.

 

You know what I caught about that?  In the wedding gown store, when she prefaced reporting her father cancelling, she said something to the effect of, "I guess he learned how to text", but when she was telling Kevin about it, she said that he called her and told her.

Continuity Monkeys asleep at the switch.

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On 5/11/2021 at 11:04 PM, nilyank said:

I have a feeling that Uncle Nicky is going to find a winner of a script that will make Kevin's career soar.

Maybe not even "find" a script, but write a script for Kevin. Perhaps even about his life? It would certainly "open it all up", so to speak. Like a final deep cleanse for him. Sometimes we must really open ourselves to the past in order to move fully forward.

Nicky, as we know, wears a wedding ring in the future. I'm pretty positive he reunites with pretty Sally at some point.

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3 hours ago, Violetgoblin6 said:

Maybe not even "find" a script, but write a script for Kevin. Perhaps even about his life? It would certainly "open it all up", so to speak. Like a final deep cleanse for him. Sometimes we must really open ourselves to the past in order to move fully forward.

Nicky, as we know, wears a wedding ring in the future. I'm pretty positive he reunites with pretty Sally at some point.

Did Nicky ever tell Sally why he did not end up going with her or did he ditch her by never showing up?

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6 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Did Nicky ever tell Sally why he did not end up going with her or did he ditch her by never showing up?

He, as the kids today would say, ghosted her.  They had only been seeing each other for like 3 weeks, so it should not have been that shocking to her when he didn't show.  

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10 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

He, as the kids today would say, ghosted her.  They had only been seeing each other for like 3 weeks, so it should not have been that shocking to her when he didn't show.  

Wow, I can’t imagine a man who I barely dated and then ghosted me, contacting me almost 50 years later. It’s crazy but weirder things have happened.

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8 hours ago, qtpye said:

Wow, I can’t imagine a man who I barely dated and then ghosted me, contacting me almost 50 years later. It’s crazy but weirder things have happened.

I just hope that, if the wife is indeed Sally, she had a full and happy life for most of those 50 years and didn't sit around pining for Nicky.

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2 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I just hope that, if the wife is indeed Sally, she had a full and happy life for most of those 50 years and didn't sit around pining for Nicky.

You don’t understand. He’s a Pearson! Meeting him was the highlight of her life!

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5 hours ago, Jeddah said:

You don’t understand. He’s a Pearson! Meeting him was the highlight of her life!

yes, but not as insufferable. lol  I'm sure she will be conveniently free with her own hurts to share and joys. They both loved animals and space, I see more interesting things than who Kate marries.

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On 5/14/2021 at 8:18 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

While I like that the show is having Kevin seriously think about committing to Madison, I wish the show did not have to bring in his exes to get the ball rolling.  What he needs to do is have a sit down with Rebecca.  Rebecca the one who had her great love in Jack and then found a different kind of love with Miguel.  This is seriously the best time to do the Miguel deep dive we have all been waiting for.  Kevin and Madison can be a parallel to Rebecca and Miguel if the writers wanted to go in that direction.  

Yes. I have no problem with Kevin and Madison choosing to get married even though they aren’t “in love”. 
 

They are clearly sexually attracted to each other, enjoy each other’s company, spent a fair amount of time in quarantine together- and if they want to partner and raise their twins together and see if “in love” comes, they are both adults and it seems like a reasonable suggestion to me. Romantic love isn’t what everyone longs for out of a life partner above all else. 

 

Kate’s storyline really got me this episode. It’s clear that she was really depressed after Jack died, I think Rebecca tried to help her but didn’t know what to do. She worked at that diner the next 10yrs until Kevin made it big and she became his assistant. Too bad Rebecca didn’t pressure her more to get a music education degree when she was younger. 
 

I am finally glad that Kate is treating Rebecca with more respect, and acknowledging how much Rebecca loved and nurtured them (parents are just people having sex most of the time). It’s nice seeing them bond. 

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