S08.E16: Scooby-Doo Checks and Salisbury Steak

[chediavolo]

16 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

We live in a patriarchal society, so showing a woman who looks like Andy with a man who looks like Jill 1) would never happen, 2) I would welcome it with open arms, and 3) it would be amazing.  That's another reason why the Jill/Andy partnership bothers me.  It's so damn typical and the audience is supposed to coo over it and find it romantic.  The main reason it bothers me is that it put Jill in a very powerless position next to Andy.  Jill constantly had to try to prove herself or compromise herself for him.  Andy was posited as too good for Jill. 

It bothers me, and it feels like a straight man's wet dream.  Jaime Pressly has been a known sex symbol throughout her career.  It almost feels like the writers and producers want to take her down a peg. 

Sex symbol? What am I missing? I think she’s pretty funny looking. Body, athletic and firm yes, unattainable for most.  face, not pretty at all. 

[Jane Tuesday]

I'd love to date in a world where Andy is a 4. I'm close to Jill's age, and in my dating pool, he'd be a solid 7. Single hot guys in their 40s are single for a reason, in my experience. I'd love to meet an Andy. 

Jill is rich and beautiful, but most certainly single for a reason. So I don't see a disparity in their date-ability. I like them together, and I hope they're able to make it work. Jill may not need a man and baby, but I think it's perfectly fine to want them. 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Jane Tuesday

[bichonblitz]

22 hours ago, ctlady said:

I just don't like Jill's neediness whether it's with Andy, rock star guy, Trevor - heck, even Emily. 

I hope she is pregnant and decides to raise the baby on her own. 

[nodorothyparker]

Throughout much of her run, but especially this past season, Jill has given off strong vibes of being that girl we all knew from our single drinking days of being the one you'd periodically have to explain to your male friends exactly why she was a bad idea. Because all they saw was hot and crazy and equated it with hot crazy sex. And then you'd still have to rescue them when she inevitably set their car on fire. Jaime Pressly has done nice work making Jill as sympathetic as she has to the point we can care about her, even when the writing was leaning pretty hard on the poor little rich girl trope and in this season where she's been given little to do but rub up against every male character who isn't Adam.

[BookThief]

Wow, people have surprisingly strong opinions on Jill and Andy and what is and isn't possible in this world. I also hate the trope of less attractive man dates beautiful woman but it doesn't bother me here. Jill *thought* she was a 10 and that everyone was beneath her but living a sober life and going to meetings has improved her outlook and personality (OK, mostly) and she realized her previous dating patterns were not working for her. She didn't so much as give Andy a chance as he let her have a chance to date him. He was just as involved in this decision and was willing to walk away when she was toxic. He knew his worth and wasn't blinded by "but she's so pretty!". While the ending was wrapped up pretty quickly (out of necessity), I feel like they mostly balance each other out. Jill may be a 10 in some categories, but Andy is a 10 in others.

[TVMovieBuff]

Andy is so NORMAL. Jill is a nutcase. The same way most of us are nutcases. She's the poor little rich girl. Finding her mother's suicided (is that a thing?) body (you know what I mean) and she turned to alcohol and coke. You could say she has more in common with nutzoid rockstar guy. 

Andy symbolizes (I hate that word and concept, but he does) the step-in-the-right-direction with men, that is one of the final things Jill has to do, now that she hasn't relapsed in awhile. 

So there is a REASON for the hot girl / not-so-hot guy pairing.

[qtpye]

22 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

It was definitely more than a trope (Homer, According to Jim, King of Queens, Kevin Can Wait).  You still never see the reverse!  Maybe "Man with a Plan"?  But once again, it stars a woman who is a lot better looking than Will Sasso is.  And she and Matt LeBLanc seem to have a similar build.  

 

On 5/1/2021 at 1:34 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

We live in a patriarchal society, so showing a woman who looks like Andy with a man who looks like Jill 1) would never happen, 2) I would welcome it with open arms, and 3) it would be amazing.  That's another reason why the Jill/Andy partnership bothers me.  It's so damn typical and the audience is supposed to coo over it and find it romantic.  The main reason it bothers me is that it put Jill in a very powerless position next to Andy.  Jill constantly had to try to prove herself or compromise herself for him.  Andy was posited as too good for Jill. 

It bothers me, and it feels like a straight man's wet dream.  Jaime Pressly has been a known sex symbol throughout her career.  It almost feels like the writers and producers want to take her down a peg. 

 

22 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I can see why Jill is a catch.  The show has shown me plenty of reasons why.  I can't see why Andy is.  The show has not shown me at all.  Personality?  What personality? I remember that he's a commitment-phobe, a cop, and he wears Crocs....... ok......I remember that dinner where Jill and him were not even getting along......  He acts squirrely and like he's not really that into Jill...... ok....... great.....?   This is what beautiful women on television have to aspire to?

I would have liked Jill with the therapist, Trevor (or alone).  He's intelligent, he is overflowing with personality, he's interesting, and the characters had chemistry together.  I can totally see why Jill would be into him, and he acted a lot more interested than Andy ever did.

I just wanted to agree with everything that you said @Ms Blue Jay.  It is not just that they are mismatched in looks and economic status but all Andy has is that he is a somewhat decent guy (we think).

If a woman was homely but decent that would not be enough for Hollywood to hook her up with a incredibly good looking rich man. Yes, Jill has had some issues but she has been sober. Yes, she should not have stalked Andy but that in itself does not put her into "crazy bitch" category and she apologized and left him alone. Heck, Hollywood's idea of a homely woman is a beautiful woman in glasses.

 

[Jane Tuesday]

15 hours ago, qtpye said:

If a woman was homely but decent that would not be enough for Hollywood to hook her up with a incredibly good looking rich man.

Ana Farris isn't homely, but Christy is definitely not a 10 on my scale. She's also broke, schlumpy, addicted to drugs, alcohol, and gambling, has two kids who hate/ignore her, and lives with her mother. And yet she's had Baxter's FIL (Harry Hamlin) and Adam's brother (Steven Weber) both willing to give her the world, basically.

By most people's standards, they would both be way out of her league. In the end, she ended both relationships, because even though they looked good on paper, they were assholes. But the show presented them as if they were a viable match.

All that to say that while I completely agree with your statements as to television in general, on this show I think the "desirable guy paired with a less desirable woman" has actually been done.

 

One thing I really love about Mom is that it's never been written that you have to be thin/hot/young to be loved, or desirable. Obviously there's a lot of frank discussion of hotness and attraction, but everyone (except poor Wendy) has gotten to have sexual and romantic relationships. On most shows, only Jill and Christy would be shown as sexual beings. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Jane Tuesday

[Irlandesa]

14 minutes ago, Jane Tuesday said:

In the end, she ended both relationships, because even though they looked good on paper, they were assholes.

Hamlin's character was.  I don't think Weber's was.

On 5/2/2021 at 12:27 AM, qtpye said:

Thank you for saying this. It is ridiculous that Andy would not be thanking his lucky stars for a woman like Jill.

I think looks wise, this is true.  But there's only so much baggage a reasonable person will take on regardless of how the hot the other person is. I think I would have preferred for Andy to invite Jill in when she came to him and said that the journey with him was worth it regardless of where they ended it up.  I don't think they needed to go with a near death experience to bring us there.

I don't think Jill needed a man for her end game.  I think her priority is to have a child.  I would like to see that as her end game--not necessarily through pregnancy or even via a baby but just a child.  I would have loved for her to continue to foster and eventually adopt going that route.

On 5/1/2021 at 12:40 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Coming from someone who watches a lot of movies and television, I couldn't even think of one instance.  The closest thing I could think of was Melissa McCarthy and Jude Law/Jason Statham being coworkers in "Spy" (NOT lovers) and she's treated like a joke by Jude's character. 

Well she did end up

Spoiler

in bed with Jason Statham's character in the end, much to her chagrin.

Man.  I wish we had a sequel to that movie. Coincidentally, another co-star of that movie was Miranda Hart and her "Miranda" character in her BBC sitcom Miranda was the one instance I thought of where hot guy ends up with a non-conventionally attractive woman.  She was tall and not super skinny and she ended up with Tom Ellis's character (now known as Lucifer) who is more straight forward good looking.

[SunnyBeBe]

On 5/2/2021 at 2:13 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I can see why Jill is a catch.  The show has shown me plenty of reasons why.  I can't see why Andy is.  The show has not shown me at all.  Personality?  What personality? I remember that he's a commitment-phobe, a cop, and he wears Crocs....... ok......I remember that dinner where Jill and him were not even getting along......  He acts squirrely and like he's not really that into Jill...... ok....... great.....?   This is what beautiful women on television have to aspire to?

I would have liked Jill with the therapist, Trevor (or alone).  He's intelligent, he is overflowing with personality, he's interesting, and the characters had chemistry together.  I can totally see why Jill would be into him, and he acted a lot more interested than Andy ever did.

Completely agree. Andy and Jill don’t seem well matched at all.  No chemistry....he seemed annoyed or disinterested inJill.  He seems dull, even in a bizarre shirt.  She seemed better suited with the British guy, though he was too flighty.  Of course, it’s the end now....whatever.   I don’t get Adam with Bonnie either.  

[ctlady]

On 5/2/2021 at 1:27 AM, qtpye said:

The main reason it bothers me is that it put Jill in a very powerless position next to Andy.  Jill constantly had to try to prove herself or compromise herself for him.  Andy was posited as too good for Jill. 

I actually see it as the other way around - that Andy will always have to prove his worth to Jill because, with her money and looks, she can just up and leave to 'do better'.  I remember the episode where Andy took her to his gym to work out.  I didn't like his 'Yeah, that's right - SHE'S with ME' attitude as he felt he had to go out of his way to make the guys know that even though he's not exactly gorgeous and buff that he can get a hot girlfriend.  But as Jill was outdoing him in the workout department, he was struggling to keep up and got an inkling that, down the line, he may feel pressured to always 'keep up' in the relationship with her  Now....could Jill serve as an inspiration for Andy to get more fit - absolutely (and, as a member of law enforcement, I think it would serve him in the line of duty.  If you can't keep up with your girlfriend in the gym, how the heck are you going to manage chasing someone down the street, up a flight of stairs or have to hop a fence?)

Which brings me to the scene at the bank.  One - I agree that it was contrived to have Andy conveniently there selecting a check design - no one goes to the bank to do that anymore.  Second - Jill was constantly insulting him from his outfit to his footwear (okay, yeah....crocs, but really Jill, put a filter in your put downs)  Right then and there it should've sealed the deal for Andy that he made the right decision.  Right from their very first date she denied being with him when one of her uppity friends showed up.

And when the robbery happened - first off - police officers (from what I know) always have their weapon on them, even off duty.  And second, I felt he was trying to 'prove' himself to her when he shielded her body with his to protect her, but then - of course - Jill (and the writers) had to ruin the moment by having him get off of her because of his weight.  

Bottom line - there is just nothing about Jill that has made me like her.  I can't even fathom how the rest of the ladies tolerated her after all these years - except for the fact that she picked up the check for a good long while.  I never understood why she was even at those meetings as, considering she lived in a more affluent area and is very particular about the stores she shops in and all the high end stuff, that she'd go to meetings where there were others on the same social ladder rung.  By having her at the meetings with Bonne & Co who are not on that same rung almost comes across as if Jill feels she has some kind of statistical power over them that compensates for the downfall of her marriage and social status due to her alcohol and drug use

[Callietwo]

51 minutes ago, ctlady said:

never understood why she was even at those meetings as, considering she lived in a more affluent area and is very particular about the stores she shops in and all the high end stuff, that she'd go to meetings where there were others on the same social ladder rung.  By having her at the meetings with Bonne & Co who are not on that same rung almost comes across as if Jill feels she has some kind of statistical power over them that compensates for the downfall of her marriage and social status due to her alcohol and drug use

It was explained that she didn't want the people in her social circle to know she was attending AA, so she chose in a "lower tier" to protect her privacy.  

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, Callietwo said:

It was explained that she didn't want the people in her social circle to know she was attending AA, so she chose in a "lower tier" to protect her privacy.  

Interesting.  Well, they sure gave us some very flawed characters, lol......I think Tammy and Christy were my favorites, though I like Adam too.  Did anyone ever watch As The World Turns back in the day?

Edited May 4, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[qtpye]

4 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Interesting.  Well, they sure gave us some very flawed characters, lol......I think Tammy and Christy were my favorites, though I like Adam too.  Did anyone ever watch As The World Turns back in the day?

It's funny, some people have commented on Kirsten Johnston (Tammy) being so beautiful back in the day when she was on Third Rock From the Sun (for the record, I still think she is a cutie) with French Stewart.

Since I brought up the fat guy with hot wife/girlfriend trope...guess who they paired her with on that show...Newman from Seinfeld.

I know it was because she was an alien and did not know better but I think it still counts as an example.

[Deskisamess]

On 4/29/2021 at 9:33 PM, ams1001 said:

So Bonnie has to leave early for Tammy's sober birthday but suddenly Trevor's love life is more important? Trevor really needs to learn to set boundaries with her.

I love the neighbor. "Now you are free."

It was predictable but I'm good with Andy and Jill getting back together. I want them to get a happy ending. At this point I kinda want Bonnie to be left alone. Or at least have her friends read her the riot act just once. I know it probably won't happen.

I've not watched from episode 15 on, mostly because the character of Bonnie ruins the show for me. A perfect ending would be the other characters telling her to her face they were sick of her abuse and total lack of personal growth, and all leaving her behind on her own.

Early on in this show, I'd hoped for a decent portrayal of recovery and growth for the characters. Bonnie's character hasn't grown at all, and her treatment of the rest of the characters is horrible and not funny. It's played for laughs, and turned the show into just another stupid sitcom.

[mammaM]

On 5/4/2021 at 12:18 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Interesting.  Well, they sure gave us some very flawed characters, lol......I think Tammy and Christy were my favorites, though I like Adam too.  Did anyone ever watch As The World Turns back in the day?

Yes I did, and I squeed like a schoolgirl when Adam made his first appearance😂😎

[SunnyBeBe]

2 hours ago, mammaM said:

Yes I did, and I squeed like a schoolgirl when Adam made his first appearance😂😎

Wasn’t he Lily Walsh’s bio dad?

[mammaM]

15 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Wasn’t he Lily Walsh’s bio dad?

OMG, that was a million years ago and I'm lucky if I can remember last Tuesday😂, but I think so😂😎

[SunnyBeBe]

On 5/21/2021 at 8:27 AM, mammaM said:

OMG, that was a million years ago and I'm lucky if I can remember last Tuesday😂, but I think so😂😎

As The World Turns was an awesome soap and a breeding ground for talented actors.