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S03.E18: Cheating, Revelations and a Box of Doll Heads

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43 minutes ago, UYI said:

I could kind of forgive that just because she was still a teenager and part of her wanted to believe that they might have left some money aside for her, and not basically put everything in the bike shop. Ditto why she might have thought getting scholarships/loans/financial aid for college was hopeless and she decided to ask Mark to marry her instead. Wishful thinking/assumptions that she thought might be true. It wouldn't work for her now, but when she was a teenager? Yeah, I buy it. 

It wouldn't be unheard of that a college fund was set aside, but the show wouldn't be what it is without poorly though out finances.

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2 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

I remember being shocked Becky thought her parents had a college fund for her.  Had she not seen her parents struggle to pay the bills her entire life? 

I think that was a little overboard.  I don't think they needed to have Dan say that.

Didn't makes sense Becky never tried to get financial aid 20 years ago and it doesn't make sense now. I can see Dan blaming Mark instead of owning up to his and Becky's hand in what happened to her.

 

How long has Mark been dead? Was Darlene pregnant when he died? I asked because when the series ended Becky was thinking of going to school. So shouldn't she have finished school when Darlene was pregnant again? 

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16 minutes ago, Arcadiasw said:

Didn't makes sense Becky never tried to get financial aid 20 years ago and it doesn't make sense now. I can see Dan blaming Mark instead of owning up to his and Becky's hand in what happened to her.

 

How long has Mark been dead? Was Darlene pregnant when he died? I asked because when the series ended Becky was thinking of going to school. So shouldn't she have finished school when Darlene was pregnant again? 

I remember that when Chalke was Becky that she took classes. Community college first, then a state college if you're low on funds.

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5 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

I liked the Becky/Dan scene for the most part, but it did feel a little forced.  I wish they had had this discussion without the structure of a therapy session - back in the old days, this type of argument would have erupted naturally in the kitchen (or in this case, a hallway or parking lot of the rehab facility).  Also, even though Becky reached uncomfortable truths, it felt like she was pushed in a direction she might not have gone otherwise.  She might have been mad at Mark (and herself), but she also was very regretful he was gone, and she should have been allowed to explore all of her feelings toward him.

I think Becky was pushed into admitting her underlying feelings about Mark and her own decisions about school, but it was LONG overdue.  She has been exploring her regretful feelings about his death for a decade or two, and with many, many bottles.   She spent most of the time in rehab talking about his death and that it was the reason she drank....alcoholics don't need reasons to drink, and yet everything is a reason to drink. The one thing she hadn't done was admit the feelings of anger, resentment and regret she had that were much, much harder to admit than grief over his death.

Edited by izabella
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33 minutes ago, izabella said:

I think Becky was pushed into admitting her underlying feelings about Mark and her own decisions about school, but it was LONG overdue.  She has been exploring her regretful feelings about his death for a decade or two, and with many, many bottles.   She spent most of the time in rehab talking about his death and that it was the reason she drank....alcoholics don't need reasons to drink, and yet everything is a reason to drink. The one thing she hadn't done was admit the feelings of anger, resentment and regret she had that were much, much harder to admit than grief over his death.

My aunt and uncle sold their home in a leafy suburb of Seattle and moved to Florida at my uncle's insistence. They bought a beautiful house there and for a while it seemed to us that they were living their golden years with a measure of grace. It all came crashing down when my uncle died. My aunt didn't react the way we thought she would. She was furious at him because he had been drinking a bottle of vodka a day. She couldn't afford to move back into the kind of house she used to have. She was miserable for the rest of her life. No, alcoholics don't need a reason to drink.

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Wow.  They went there.  This was a powerful episode, despite the missing box of doll heads (did I miss something?).

We finally know how Mark died; a tragic accident.  We don't know what happened to the deer though.  Enquiring minds want to know.

Now we know why students must wear blue blocker glasses while taking Zoom tests, I guess?

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If this episode didn't convince anyone that Lecy Goranson is the MVP of this show, and that she is basically carrying it on its back more than half of the time, I'm afraid nothing else will. I will be SO pissed if she doesn't FINALLY get her first Emmy nomination for this episode alone.

Lecy and John made last night's show for me - it gave me the feeling of the original show without it feeling maudlin. As for Becky's college fund, I have the feeling Roseanne and Dan might have raided whatever meager amount was in there during the prior year when things were super tight. Also, back in the day, going to "community college" was a step down in a lot of people's eyes. Becky would have been smart enough to get into a four year college with her grades. I think even SHE thought it was a step down. 

And then. . . . waaaahhh waaaahhh Darlene came in. She is just some special kind of eff-up, isn't she? Trying to help her kid cheat? And then going to the school and tearing up a poster while getting all "After-School Special" on the teacher? Maybe if she wasn't so wrapped up in Ben and her own devices, she would know that her kid was super stressed out earlier and could have traded off something for tutoring (I had a friend who had several very talented gymnasts and she cleaned the gym every night to cover their tuition - another friend held bake sales to pay for their equipment and lessons).  How about Darlene trade those tickets for Hawaii in and use the cash to pay for a tutor for her child? (if she could even get the cash back)

9 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

We finally know how Mark died; a tragic accident.  We don't know what happened to the deer though.  Enquiring minds want to know.

Are you thinking the state police loaded up that deer in the back of a truck and somebody took it home and made sausage out of it? LOL

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2 minutes ago, ItsHelloPattiagain said:

Lecy and John made last night's show for me - it gave me the feeling of the original show without it feeling maudlin. As for Becky's college fund, I have the feeling Roseanne and Dan might have raided whatever meager amount was in there during the prior year when things were super tight. Also, back in the day, going to "community college" was a step down in a lot of people's eyes. Becky would have been smart enough to get into a four year college with her grades. I think even SHE thought it was a step down. 

And then. . . . waaaahhh waaaahhh Darlene came in. She is just some special kind of eff-up, isn't she? Trying to help her kid cheat? And then going to the school and tearing up a poster while getting all "After-School Special" on the teacher? Maybe if she wasn't so wrapped up in Ben and her own devices, she would know that her kid was super stressed out earlier and could have traded off something for tutoring (I had a friend who had several very talented gymnasts and she cleaned the gym every night to cover their tuition - another friend held bake sales to pay for their equipment and lessons).  How about Darlene trade those tickets for Hawaii in and use the cash to pay for a tutor for her child? (if she could even get the cash back)

Are you thinking the state police loaded up that deer in the back of a truck and somebody took it home and made sausage out of it? LOL

No, I didn't go there!  I know a young man lost his life, but I am concerned about the welfare and fate of the deer, that's all.  I'm one of those people who always wonder, "But what happened to the dog?"

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We finally know how Mark died; a tragic accident.  We don't know what happened to the deer though.  Enquiring minds want to know.

A fucking motorcycle accident. Damn, I hate the things. I hated it when Dan restored his. I've lost too many friends because of them.

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7 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

No, I didn't go there!  I know a young man lost his life, but I am concerned about the welfare and fate of the deer, that's all.  I'm one of those people who always wonder, "But what happened to the dog?"

The few cases I heard of a deer surviving an accident involving a collision it had to be put down due to injuries. According to Becky God threw a deer in front of Mark's bike - maybe the deer managed to get away and there was no collision but Mark died because he lost control of his bike while trying to swerve.

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I guess the lottery season erased Mark and Dan respecting each other too. 

Darlene is really bad at mothering. Imagine Roseanne helping her kids cheat at a test. I can't do it. She wouldn't have blamed rich kids either.

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52 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

The few cases I heard of a deer surviving an accident involving a collision it had to be put down due to injuries. According to Becky God threw a deer in front of Mark's bike - maybe the deer managed to get away and there was no collision but Mark died because he lost control of his bike while trying to swerve.

The swerve is what will kill you. In a car you can flip and survive, but a motorbike if you get away with road burn that's good. No helmet and one hard hit on the noggin and you're out.

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8 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Maybe they realized that this would remind the audience of creepy kid DJ? Even in the times before Criminal Minds & Co. the writing for the character often left me feeling uneasy. Adult DJ gives off a completely different vibe and I'm glad about that.

I disagree. Creepy, bowl-cut, weiner kid DJ was funny to me. I know the guy isn't a professional actor anymore, but at least the old version of DJ had personality. I understand having him mature, but he should have kept some of his old whinyness.

Edited by Wizardpatch
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I feel really bad for Mark, he's getting a posthumous blame for everything that's gone wrong in Becky's life.  And this is the new Dan:  All hate, bitterness, and rage.  No one else in the entire family has ever been successful, but suddenly it's Mark's fault?  I know he's a fictional character, but I don't like that he's not around to defend himself. 

And again, I don't understand what they're doing with Mark.  I thought he was supposed to be a bright kid.  Now Darlene talks about him like he can't get by without cheating or an expensive tutor.  And she gets to go on a rant and take it out on a school poster, because hey, having a work ethic is such a terrible thing.

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11 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

 

I liked the Becky/Dan scene for the most part, but it did feel a little forced.  I wish they had had this discussion without the structure of a therapy session - back in the old days, this type of argument would have erupted naturally in the kitchen (or in this case, a hallway or parking lot of the rehab facility).  Also, even though Becky reached uncomfortable truths, it felt like she was pushed in a direction she might not have gone otherwise.  She might have been mad at Mark (and herself), but she also was very regretful he was gone, and she should have been allowed to explore all of her feelings toward him.

As an aside, if Mark died via motorcycle, how was David involved?  I recall earlier seasons suggested that David was partially responsible for Mark's death and David left his family because he felt guilty.  

 

Edited by mythoughtis · Reason: Maybe Mark was on his way to see David? 
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I actually liked the conversation about Mark that Dan had with Becky.   I don’t think the show was too far off or rewriting history all that much.  Becky found out she had no college fund around the same time that Dan closed down the shop so Mark had to find a new job elsewhere,   Of course she could have looked for student aid but I am guessing it never occurred to her to do that or that especially with her parents having a hard time getting loans themselves.   She had to make a choice in a split second and decided to cling to what she figured was a better bet.   Staying with Mark who legitimately loved her over taking a chance at getting a loan or scholarship she might not be qualified for.    
 

And yeah I can see Dan blaming Mark for not encouraging Becky.   There was that episode where he actually did bring up the point to Roseanne that mechanics didn’t marry doctors.   And then he goes and dies and pushes Becky into a downward spiral she never completely recovers from.   
 

it’s easy to blame a dead man but Becky realizes it wasn’t all his fault.  She made her choice to stay with Mark  and let herself drown in the grief of losing him.

Edited by Chaos Theory
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1 hour ago, rmontro said:

And again, I don't understand what they're doing with Mark.  I thought he was supposed to be a bright kid.  Now Darlene talks about him like he can't get by without cheating or an expensive tutor.  And she gets to go on a rant and take it out on a school poster, because hey, having a work ethic is such a terrible thing.

Mark was saying that he is good at the level that is taught in school in Lanford, but can't compete with kids who went to prep schools and have private tutors.  That they are so much further along than he is because of it, so he was having to work that much harder by himself to try to compete and even that's not enough.

I get what he is saying.  When I went to college, I discovered the same thing.  There were freshmen who were able to enroll in advanced Calculus and French classes, when my high school didn't even offer Calculus or French, much less advanced. so I was starting from way behind on day 1.

Edited by izabella
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And again, I don't understand what they're doing with Mark.  I thought he was supposed to be a bright kid.  Now Darlene talks about him like he can't get by without cheating or an expensive tutor.  And she gets to go on a rant and take it out on a school poster, because hey, having a work ethic is such a terrible thing.

It's because Darlene is a crap mother. If she spent any time with Mark, she would know that he was on it. She assumed he wouldn't be able to do it without cheating. She doesn't know her own kid.

Edited by peacheslatour
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My nephew is really bright but with online learning he was nearly flunking out and his parents could afford tutors if they wanted to.     I can definitely see Mark falling behind because online learning doesn’t really leave room for asking too many questions when you don’t understand something.  Your parents are expected to pick  up the slack and that really isn’t possible in some families.     Darlene can’t afford to hire a tutor so whatever Mark can’t figure out on his own he will fall behind on regardless of how smart he actually is.  Plus  he probably had to compete with those going to better schools anyway.

Edited by Chaos Theory
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2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

A fucking motorcycle accident. Damn, I hate the things. I hated it when Dan restored his. I've lost too many friends because of them.

And here I am watching my life play out on this dumb show.  I hate it.  Thank gawd my mom wasn’t Roseanne and my dad isn’t Dan.  But the loss of dreams because your love died to soon in an auto accident?  That’s me. And I went down a darkkkkkk road after.  At least my parents aren’t broke ass losers.  And I do t have a hagg of a sister like Darlene 😂

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9 hours ago, bad things are bad said:

In theoretical Roseanneland, the Conners would have been poor enough for Becky to have gotten a lot of financial aid. Am I forgetting some reason that wasn't an option? In the 80s, tuition wasn't as insane as it is now, and you could go to school on financial aid and a part time job. 

As a "poor" kid who graduated in the 80's, financial aid wasn't something that some kids were even told existed.  I literally never knew it did.  I just knew that college wasn't something anyone in my family was financially able to do for me.  taking loans or scholarships or aid was never talked about with me, not even by my school counselors.  They directed me to take office style classes (typing, accounting, word processing) for my electives & my Senior year I got into VOE (Vocational Office Education).  I was placed in an office job thru that class.  And I wasn't growing up in a small town or a small school system.  I was in Houston, 4th largest city & in the largest school system in Texas.  I was an A/B student who most likely could have gotten some kind of scholarship help & financial aid.  I did eventually take night classes thru the city college system but just to advance my office skills, not for a degree. 

 

To keep it on the show, I can see why Dan could have gotten back to the point of hating Mark & blaming him.  Might not have been intentional, but what he & Roseanne feared about Mark came true.  He ruined Becky's life.  Again, not intentional, but that is what happened.  Also Becky WOULDN'T face her emotions over his death, that's why she drank.  So the forced therapy session breakthru made sense to me.  Dan wouldn't have said what he said any other way.  Becky wouldn't have admitted that she was angry at Mark any other way.  I also liked how they had Mark die.  Becky grew up with her dad riding a motorcycle & it being no big deal.  Something that she knew comforted her dad ended up killing her husband. It was probably something she never worried about Mark doing.  He's just going out for a bike ride, he'll be back in a few hours.  No biggie.  It also gave Becky no one to really blame for his death & increased her issues with dealing with it.  She never went thru all the stages of grief because she never worked thru the anger stage. 

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13 hours ago, kassa said:

have they established WHEN he died? Was she a new widow at the time the show started, or had he died shortly after we left them in the original run, living in the trailer? 

I vaguely remember them saying that David had his breakdown and left Darlene shortly after Mark's death, and that he wasn't around to help raise Mark (his son). So, I guess Mark died shortly before or after the younger Mark was born, which would be about 13 years ago. But I could be misremembering. I've only watched these episodes once.

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Are we really supposed to believe that Darlene can't afford three hours  of  tutoring when like three episodes ago she was ready to 100 percent support Ben when he wanted to be a podcaster, plus they managed to spend more than that on podcast equipment?   And what happened to that room that Mark had supposedly fixed up ?  Becky mentioned it when Darlene was looking for somewhere to do the zoom meeting didn't she?  

Idk if I believe that Mark ruined Becky's life.  They were both young, came from homes that could not really provide anything for them, and had no idea how to make what they wanted to happen a reality.  It would have been more believable if Becky ended up in a a ton of student loan debt for a degree that was pretty much useless which is where a lot of people find themselves.  Even so, two kids who got married too young with no money, no life experience, and nothing to fall back on is what it is.  They both made bad decisions, including Becky.  Speaking of Becky, it's kind of funny that even when she was an alcoholic waitress she had a small apartment and Ben is apparently still living in the hardware store.   

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1 minute ago, Cherpumple said:

I vaguely remember them saying that David had his breakdown and left Darlene shortly after Mark's death, and that he wasn't around to help raise Mark (his son). So, I guess Mark died shortly before or after the younger Mark was born, which would be about 13 years ago. But I could be misremembering. I've only watched these episodes once.

No, I think I think you're right. At some point  Becky and Darlene are fighting in the kitchen and Becky says that she weed Darlene  when. Mark died  and Darlene says how co u know she. She was pregnant and chasing a toddler.

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22 minutes ago, lexiexx said:

Are we really supposed to believe that Darlene can't afford three hours  of  tutoring when like three episodes ago she was ready to 100 percent support Ben when he wanted to be a podcaster, plus they managed to spend more than that on podcast equipment?   And what happened to that room that Mark had supposedly fixed up ?  Becky mentioned it when Darlene was looking for somewhere to do the zoom meeting didn't she?  

Idk if I believe that Mark ruined Becky's life.  They were both young, came from homes that could not really provide anything for them, and had no idea how to make what they wanted to happen a reality.  It would have been more believable if Becky ended up in a a ton of student loan debt for a degree that was pretty much useless which is where a lot of people find themselves.  Even so, two kids who got married too young with no money, no life experience, and nothing to fall back on is what it is.  They both made bad decisions, including Becky.  Speaking of Becky, it's kind of funny that even when she was an alcoholic waitress she had a small apartment and Ben is apparently still living in the hardware store.   

And here we are.  Yet more pile  on.  Becky is an alcoholic waitress widow single mom of an infant from a non citizen one night stand.   She really never wanted that life she claimed she wanted because if she did, she would have left Mark in the dust.  I’d liked to know how they were married so long and never had kids.  

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11 hours ago, UYI said:

The way I remember it was that when Becky found out there was no money to send her to college, Dan told her she could still get a scholarship of some sort, to which Becky responded, "MAYBE, Dad, a BIG, BIG MAYBE." And given that neither of her parents had gone to college and that the Internet was still a few years away from really taking off (1992 vs. 1995), I could see how they wouldn't know how to properly go about it, and Becky not thinking it would work out for her if she tried due to the old "too poor to afford college, not poor enough to qualify for certain financial aid" problem. 

And of course, she saw going to community college as a way at being stuck at home even longer than she wanted to be (which of course happened anyway once she and Mark came back from Minneapolis and then again when she had Beverly Rose years later), and a waste of a chance to go to a true four year college that she felt she and her grades qualified her for.

That's one thing that I like now about Becky's story: There's a chance for her to show some humility and see the value of at least starting school again at a community college, even if it will be harder for her now that she's a mom, and maybe still getting a chance to transfer to a four year school down he road. It's optimistic, yes, but her story is the one thing the show has going for it now so I'll keep the faith! :) 

 

22 minutes ago, lexiexx said:

Are we really supposed to believe that Darlene can't afford three hours  of  tutoring when like three episodes ago she was ready to 100 percent support Ben when he wanted to be a podcaster, plus they managed to spend more than that on podcast equipment?   And what happened to that room that Mark had supposedly fixed up ?  Becky mentioned it when Darlene was looking for somewhere to do the zoom meeting didn't she?  

Idk if I believe that Mark ruined Becky's life.  They were both young, came from homes that could not really provide anything for them, and had no idea how to make what they wanted to happen a reality.  It would have been more believable if Becky ended up in a a ton of student loan debt for a degree that was pretty much useless which is where a lot of people find themselves.  Even so, two kids who got married too young with no money, no life experience, and nothing to fall back on is what it is.  They both made bad decisions, including Becky.  Speaking of Becky, it's kind of funny that even when she was an alcoholic waitress she had a small apartment and Ben is apparently still living in the hardware store.   

I felt like back in the 90's people really believed that college would magically lead to a much better life. The internet was not a thing in the early 90's and the Connors had no clue about college or any other type of higher education. This was apparent when it was almost assumed that Becky could easily become a doctor because she got good grades in high school and was reapplying to college.

I remember the trailer episode as one where Roseanne wanted Becky to realize how her life would turn out if she did not return to school and stayed with Mark (we got the line about how doctors are not not often married to mechanics).

It is unfair to blame Mark for all of Becky's failures but I am not surprised by Dan's attitude.

I have a friend who was a really good student. She went to college got into trouble and dropped out. After she dropped out she met a guy her parents thought was beneath her, married him and never returned to college.

To this day her parents blame the guy for ruining her life even though she was trouble way before she met her husband. They seem incapable of realizing or admitting that she fucked up on her own and nobody else "drug her down".

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37 minutes ago, lexiexx said:

Are we really supposed to believe that Darlene can't afford three hours  of  tutoring

The stimulus checks she received on behalf of Mark should have well covered this.  Even if she needs to use a majority of it for bills and living expenses....she should have received $2600 give or take (I can’t keep track to be honest) in total for her dependent.  She couldn’t have spared even $200 from that to hire a tutor?  For cash?

At this point she is like Beverly Goldberg levels of cringe.  How many times has she gone off stomping up on the school for their wrongs against her precious kid?  The Halloween thing, the mall / voting thing, I think there was something else.  Now this.  Ok Darlene. 

Edited by geauxaway
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Exactly.  They act like Mark was some manipulative mastermind.  He was a kid with no family and no resources.  He had no idea what he was doing.  They made decisions together that held them back, and they were statistically likely to wind up carrying on the cycle of poverty.  Whose fault is that, Dan?  His own irresponsible choices contributed to the situation.  Even now they are all talking about college like it's the golden ticket.  What is Darlene doing with her college education?  Becky was a willful and rebellious teenager and sadly some people have to learn the hard way.   She'd be better off trying to learn a trade and at least bring home a living wage to support herself and her kid.   

Dan acts like every one of Becky's bad decisions are Mark's fault and the dude has been dead for what 15 years at this point?

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14 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

In the original Rosanne, Becky and Darlene were cleaning DJ's room and found a box of doll heads (Barbie, Cher, GI Joe) and another box of doll body parts. They were totally creeped out.

One time I came downstairs to a naked Barbie swinging from the rafters. Neither of my brothers would fess up and the really creepy part was I never owned a Barbie so apparently they kidnapped her as well.

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On 4/21/2021 at 9:30 PM, Annber03 said:

And speaking of people named Mark, glad that the younger Mark was able to get things sorted out with his school. My mom thought that the show was going to go in the direction that the parents who could afford tutors were doing some sort of shady pay thing, like that college scandal from a couple years ago. 

I also thought the show was going to go there.

On 4/21/2021 at 9:40 PM, Snow Apple said:

They rewrote history again. Dan may be disappointed how Becky's life turned out but he  liked Mark. Now he's saying he always hated him and glad he died. At least we now know how Mark died.

I have been wondering how Mark died but also respected what I thought was a decision not to say. I didn't feel like Dan was saying he always hated him. I think Dan liked Mark but still blames him, having seen what's become of Becky. I also know some dads are angry at themselves when their daughters run off like that and I think Dan is just angry and hurt in general about Becky's situation.

On 4/21/2021 at 10:44 PM, Cherpumple said:

That was my initial reaction too, but now I can buy it. I'm sure his feelings towards Mark are complicated. Yes, they did eventually become friends, and Dan defended Mark on several occasions, but I can totally believe that after he died and Dan watched Becky sink into depression and alcoholism with no financial security or education to fall back on, that Dan's feelings hardened and reverted back to "I wish they'd never met." He went through a similar thing with David in the original run. He didn't like him at first (guilt by association with Mark), then warmed up to him when David moved in, then went ballistic when he found out that David moved to Chicago to be with Darlene. Suddenly he blamed David for the whole thing and painted him as a manipulative schemer who forced Darlene into it. Luckily Roseanne was around to say "have you even met Darlene?" and they patched things up, but this obviously wasn't an option with Mark. This time Dan was just stuck watching his daughter suffer, with no one to blame or yell at except a dead man.

Darlene is a terrible person and a terrible mother. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at what she did, since she had no qualms about cheating when she was in school, but I was still appalled. And her rant to the teacher was wildly misplaced. Do we have any indication that she had done anything to help Mark during all these weeks that he was studying so hard? It sounded like she left him to his own devices while he ran himself ragged, then came up with an idiotic plan at the 11th hour, and then screamed and stamped her feet when it didn't work. I dearly hope that Mark gets out of that house as soon as possible, and takes Mary with him.

Agree re: Dan's feelings about Mark. 

Darlene annoys me. The whole time she was going back and forth with Ben about the trip to Hawaii, I kept thinking about my little getaway a couple of hours from home with my late teen/young adults and how refreshing it was for all of us. Darlene needs to get away from kids she doesn't seem to spend much time with and is so focused on Ben and his needs. Not saying single parents don't deserve to have relationships but that's all she ever goes on about. 

On 4/21/2021 at 10:55 PM, UYI said:

1. The big reason Becky eloped with Mark is because she had just been told that there was no money to send her to a four year college like she had always wanted (and she felt like she would be selling herself short by working her way through community college--the stigma towards community college has lessened considerably since 1992, thankfully), and so she convinced Mark to get married so they could still be together. Also, and don't forget this: SHE was the one who proposed to Mark, not the other way around, as Mark made abundantly clear to Roseanne at the time. Otherwise, they basically got it right.

2. While it's true that Dan was very angry when they first got married (giving them the silent treatment when they returned to pick up her stuff, for one thing), it's complicated by the fact that DAN GENUINELY LIKED AND RESPECTED MARK overall for his work ethic as a mechanic--he may not have wanted Becky to get married as young as she did, but he saw Mark as providing for them as a couple, especially compared to David.

Speaking of DJ, he had more than one scene today, and one of the funniest lines of the show!

(Which now I can't remember, BAH!...It was at the the rehab clinic, though!)

I didn't remember that Becky didn't want to attend community college. I do think there was more of a stigma but it sure would have been better than just not going at all. Did Becky also drop out and get a GED? My memory is fuzzy. 

DJ's funny line was about his meteoric rise to success. 

On 4/22/2021 at 12:34 AM, Bastet said:

Yes, Dan simplified what was a very layered history, but would he realistically, after all this time, having come to resent Mark again (who knows what happened between when we last saw everyone and when he died), believe it to be the way he said?  It's entirely possible; he can be irrational, selective in his memory and empathy, and wearing some real blinders when it comes to those he loves.  Especially when, in a situation he didn't feel comfortable in to begin with, Becky presented an unrealistically rosy picture of her life with Mark, like things were going great and only his death caused her to totally stall out in life.

Robin coming to visit Becky was great; I love how they mostly dislike each other but have this grudging respect that makes them not want the other to get screwed by life.

Yes, that part with Becky glorifying her time with Mark was so realistic. And when she broke down and talked about how hard it was to catch up, I really felt that. 

I like Robin on this show. They have a great relationship.

On 4/22/2021 at 12:53 AM, qtpye said:

I am not saying Mark was perfect but he really makes a far too easy scapegoat. I do think by the time they moved in the trailer he was afraid of losing her if she achieved academic success.

I remember Mark being afraid of that. I understand Becky angry at herself and at Mark. And I get Dan being angry. It's all realistic to me. And it's so easy to forget that Mark was only a couple (I think) years older than Becky - basically a kid who's barely a legal adult. He didn't even have the loving parents that Becky had. The Conners were never perfect but they're still rallying around Becky. Mark just had David - and he was the oldest so he was trying to provide for David what he never had. I'm glad the show is touching on some of what happened to Becky.

On 4/22/2021 at 1:11 AM, Irate Panda said:

Every week I think that I can’t dislike Darlene more, and every week I am wrong.

She's awful.

23 hours ago, chocolatine said:

The storyline with Mark not knowing about the quadratic equation because Darlene can't afford a tutor for him may have worked 20 years ago, but in this day and age there are plenty of free online resources for learning math (Khan Academy, Math Is Fun, Wikipedia, etc). Even just googling "quadratic equation" returns the formula right there on the search results page. Mark is a smart kid, he would have for sure been able to find that information on his own. It seems like the show wants Darlene to have a new "crusade" every episode and they're grasping at straws.

I'm glad to finally know how Becky's Mark died and that it wasn't from a drug overdose. I know Dan ended up reconciling with Mark in the original, but I can see him being angry and disappointed with the way Becky's life turned out and dead Mark being easier to blame than holding Becky accountable for her own choices (like not even trying to get loans or scholarships for university after she found out her parents couldn't help her pay for it; it still boggles my mind 25+ years later that she didn't).

I know the Conners were probably not poor enough for Becky to get a full ride but loans have been around for a long time and so have community college transfer credits. It boggled my mind that they don't mention this but then I remember that I only heard about loans and scholarships from my mom's friend. My parents were not familiar and no one mentioned any of that to me at school. Once I learned about financial aid, I took it from there. I consider myself blessed. And my kids are fortunate that I'm well versed in lots of ways to make education more affordable. 

17 hours ago, nokat said:

Lecy is so good. I got teary for Becky. That scene with Dan was so good. "You can't be angry at a dead person." "Yes you can." "I'm angry at me, because I let him take my college money."

Lecy as Becky is my favorite. I'm glad to see the show focusing on her rather than Darlene all the time.

14 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I never did understand what was happening during that season. I got the distinct impression the network lured Goranson back to the show for what was supposed to be the final season, against the wishes of Roseanne Barr, and that Roseanne made her uncomfortable enough to leave so Chalke could come back. During Roseanne's short-lived talk show she had a Roseanne reunion, and Sarah Chalke was there but not Lecy, and Roseanne referred to "that other girl" kind of snidely without ever saying her name. I think she was pissed at her for leaving the show in the first place. They apparently made amends eventually. 

Wow, I didn't know about any of that.

14 hours ago, nokat said:

I like that the show touched on this. I think that was such a cathartic moment for Becky and for a lot of viewers. Yes, you can be angry through the grief. Becky was the one who was smart and college was in her future. I can see Dan being angry too because she was the golden child. I didn't like him attacking her because with her upbringing, bad choices aren't surprising.

So many mixed emotions. And Dan probably feels guilty. 

13 hours ago, bad things are bad said:

In theoretical Roseanneland, the Conners would have been poor enough for Becky to have gotten a lot of financial aid. Am I forgetting some reason that wasn't an option? In the 80s, tuition wasn't as insane as it is now, and you could go to school on financial aid and a part time job. 

I think she would have gotten something and she could have borrowed the rest, especially if she was starting at community college. I know it's not the case now but at that time, I thought being a homeowner made it harder to get financial aid. 

13 hours ago, nokat said:

That happened to me. It meant working my way through college back when you could do that. The debt people find themselves in is horrible.

 

7 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Wow.  They went there.  This was a powerful episode, despite the missing box of doll heads (did I miss something?).

We finally know how Mark died; a tragic accident.  We don't know what happened to the deer though.  Enquiring minds want to know.

Now we know why students must wear blue blocker glasses while taking Zoom tests, I guess?

The glasses were for eye strain since he spends so much time on the computer. 

5 hours ago, rmontro said:

I feel really bad for Mark, he's getting a posthumous blame for everything that's gone wrong in Becky's life.  And this is the new Dan:  All hate, bitterness, and rage.  No one else in the entire family has ever been successful, but suddenly it's Mark's fault?  I know he's a fictional character, but I don't like that he's not around to defend himself. 

And again, I don't understand what they're doing with Mark.  I thought he was supposed to be a bright kid.  Now Darlene talks about him like he can't get by without cheating or an expensive tutor.  And she gets to go on a rant and take it out on a school poster, because hey, having a work ethic is such a terrible thing.

I think she was trying to give him a leg up since his school is really not as up to speed as the other students Mark is up against. She went about it all wrong and she could have really helped him if she weren't so self-absorbed. 

2 hours ago, lexiexx said:

Are we really supposed to believe that Darlene can't afford three hours  of  tutoring when like three episodes ago she was ready to 100 percent support Ben when he wanted to be a podcaster, plus they managed to spend more than that on podcast equipment?   And what happened to that room that Mark had supposedly fixed up ?  Becky mentioned it when Darlene was looking for somewhere to do the zoom meeting didn't she?  

Idk if I believe that Mark ruined Becky's life.  They were both young, came from homes that could not really provide anything for them, and had no idea how to make what they wanted to happen a reality.  It would have been more believable if Becky ended up in a a ton of student loan debt for a degree that was pretty much useless which is where a lot of people find themselves.  Even so, two kids who got married too young with no money, no life experience, and nothing to fall back on is what it is.  They both made bad decisions, including Becky.  Speaking of Becky, it's kind of funny that even when she was an alcoholic waitress she had a small apartment and Ben is apparently still living in the hardware store.   

I don't think Mark ruined Becky's life either. They were both kids. And Mark didn't even have a loving family like Becky did. Mark ended up being insecure about her going to school. But I can see how Dan feels Becky would have been much better without Mark.

1 hour ago, geauxaway said:

And here we are.  Yet more pile  on.  Becky is an alcoholic waitress widow single mom of an infant from a non citizen one night stand.   She really never wanted that life she claimed she wanted because if she did, she would have left Mark in the dust.  I’d liked to know how they were married so long and never had kids.  

I just figured they didn't want kids or didn't want them at the time. Lots of people are married for a long time without kids. 

1 hour ago, geauxaway said:

The stimulus checks she received on behalf of Mark should have well covered this.  Even if she needs to use a majority of it for bills and living expenses....she should have received $2600 give or take (I can’t keep track to be honest) in total for her dependent.  She couldn’t have spared even $200 from that to hire a tutor?  For cash?

At this point she is like Beverly Goldberg levels of cringe.  How many times has she gone off stomping up on the school for their wrongs against her precious kid?  The Halloween thing, the mall / voting thing, I think there was something else.  Now this.  Ok Darlene. 

Darlene would have needed to spend time with Mark to realize that he could benefit from a tutor and when she's not working, she spends most of her time fawning over Ben. 

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On 4/22/2021 at 6:21 PM, ItsHelloPattiagain said:

Lecy and John made last night's show for me - it gave me the feeling of the original show without it feeling maudlin. As for Becky's college fund, I have the feeling Roseanne and Dan might have raided whatever meager amount was in there during the prior year when things were super tight. Also, back in the day, going to "community college" was a step down in a lot of people's eyes. Becky would have been smart enough to get into a four year college with her grades. I think even SHE thought it was a step down. 

And then. . . . waaaahhh waaaahhh Darlene came in. She is just some special kind of eff-up, isn't she? Trying to help her kid cheat? And then going to the school and tearing up a poster while getting all "After-School Special" on the teacher? Maybe if she wasn't so wrapped up in Ben and her own devices, she would know that her kid was super stressed out earlier and could have traded off something for tutoring 

Are you thinking the state police loaded up that deer in the back of a truck and somebody took it home and made sausage out of it? LOL

I know we shouldn't put too much thought in a TV show but when did Becky find out about her finances for college?  I assumed it was spring of her senior year but wouldn't she, being an honor student, figure this out in fall of her senior year so she qualifies for scholarship and financial aid? 

Teen Darlene would hate what she has become. Darlene was in near "Karen" mode when she went to Mark's school.

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1 hour ago, OLynn33 said:

One time I came downstairs to a naked Barbie swinging from the rafters. Neither of my brothers would fess up and the really creepy part was I never owned a Barbie so apparently they kidnapped her as well.

My Barbie cousin Teen Skipper doll went missing for months. When my parents bought furniture our living room we had to clean. I found Skipper under the couch completely naked. 😳 I never did find her clothes. 

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13 hours ago, UYI said:

I could kind of forgive that just because she was still a teenager and part of her wanted to believe that they might have left some money aside for her, and not basically put everything in the bike shop. Ditto why she might have thought getting scholarships/loans/financial aid for college was hopeless and she decided to ask Mark to marry her instead. Wishful thinking/assumptions that she thought might be true. It wouldn't work for her now, but when she was a teenager? Yeah, I buy it. 

I did the same. You see classmates getting a free ride from their, more financially well off, parents all around you, and you just assume it is a given. At that age many of us don’t realize a college fund is impossible when your parents or in my case , a widowed parent, is just Getting  by paying the bills and any kind of savings is a luxury. My own child had the same mistaken notion & resentment for years until they were mature enough to realize what a fantasy this is for many people. And AMEN to too poor to be able to pay for college and not poor enough for help. The story of my life & a big problem in America. Middle class my ass! 

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6 hours ago, Steff said:

As a "poor" kid who graduated in the 80's, financial aid wasn't something that some kids were even told existed.  I literally never knew it did.  I just knew that college wasn't something anyone in my family was financially able to do for me.  taking loans or scholarships or aid was never talked about with me, not even by my school counselors.  They directed me to take office style classes (typing, accounting, word processing) for my electives & my Senior year I got into VOE (Vocational Office Education).  I was placed in an office job thru that class.  And I wasn't growing up in a small town or a small school system.  I was in Houston, 4th largest city & in the largest school system in Texas.  I was an A/B student who most likely could have gotten some kind of scholarship help & financial aid.  I did eventually take night classes thru the city college system but just to advance my office skills, not for a degree. 

 

To keep it on the show, I can see why Dan could have gotten back to the point of hating Mark & blaming him.  Might not have been intentional, but what he & Roseanne feared about Mark came true.  He ruined Becky's life.  Again, not intentional, but that is what happened.  Also Becky WOULDN'T face her emotions over his death, that's why she drank.  So the forced therapy session breakthru made sense to me.  Dan wouldn't have said what he said any other way.  Becky wouldn't have admitted that she was angry at Mark any other way.  I also liked how they had Mark die.  Becky grew up with her dad riding a motorcycle & it being no big deal.  Something that she knew comforted her dad ended up killing her husband. It was probably something she never worried about Mark doing.  He's just going out for a bike ride, he'll be back in a few hours.  No biggie.  It also gave Becky no one to really blame for his death & increased her issues with dealing with it.  She never went thru all the stages of grief because she never worked thru the anger stage. 

Same thing happened to me. And I was also in a very highly populated area. My counselors were shit they were absolutely no help from getting me the classes I wanted in high school to talking to me about college.  I knew nothing about how to go about getting financial aid.  I finally figured it out and was turned down because of too poor but not poor enough aspect. I had no one to talk to about it. my friends were helped by their parents ortheir counselors or whatever. My father was older and working his ass off and had no time for such things so I was left out in the cold. I’m still very bitter about it. I wish I would have written a letter to the school and told them what piece of shit useless counselors they have and how I got no guidance through school. 
and as for Becky yes community college was looked upon sort of like trade school was back in the day. It shouldn’t have been, but things were different and there really there was was not a lot of guidance from guidance counselor‘s for some of us & parents were not-as involved and we were just not taught the facts. 

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When Jackie was leaving the rehab session, she referred to her mother in the past tense.  I don't remember the specifics, it was 'my mother was .....  My mother was .......'  Has the show ever indicated that Bev passed away?  

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19 hours ago, RocknRollZombie said:

There is a podcast that she did where she talks about why she left the second time, and the atmosphere on the set and this tension with Roseanne. And how Roseanne was being disruptive while she would be doing scenes with Glenn once she came back for S8. Also she opens up about something else that happened to her while she was starring in the show. The podcast is called ‘Kill me now with Judy gold’ ep 54 from 2016 is the one with Lecy. 

This was a very good listen - thanks!  Gave me mixed feelings because it sounds like a toxic atmosphere caused by Tom Arnold. Weirdly, though, I have always thought the Tom Arnold years are when the show became truly great, so I've always had mixed feelings about it.

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5 hours ago, Arcadiasw said:

I know we shouldn't put too much thought in a TV show but when did Becky find out about her finances for college?  I assumed it was spring of her senior year but wouldn't she, being an honor student, figure this out in fall of her senior year so she qualifies for scholarship and financial aid? 

Teen Darlene would hate what she had become. Darlene was in near "Karen" mode when she went to Mark's school.

I hope adult Darlene gets a clue and starts researching financial aid and scholarship options for when Mark goes to college.

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I graduated from high school in the mid 70s, 3rd in my class.  Did not get any money from our state as we weren’t poor enough.  Which back then meant both parents worked.  We didn’t have any money.  My school counselor didn’t suggest a single thing about getting money.   My parents  paid room and board and I paid tuition and books and all else. My chosen state college did qualify me for 10 hours of student work a week  and I got a government loan one year and a bank loan the next semester. I dropped our after first semester sophomore year because my parents couldn’t pay spring room and board and I didn’t know how to come up with any more money.  There might have been scholarships available but no one told me about them. 
we called our community college ‘West Main High’ - meaning it was high school ish.  After a few years, I transferred my college credits there, took 3 classes and got an associates degree. 

Families like the Conners are why colleges now have First Gen programs for students whose parents didn’t go to college.  The colleges help the students navigate thru topics like financial aid, etc.  it’s now recognized that not all parents understand the hoops to jump thru. 
 

Becky and Dan are similar to many families when it comes to Mark( the older).  Dad always blames the offspring’s significant other for all the offsprings issues.  The offspring never wants to admit their deceased spouse wasn’t perfect until forced to say so.   

The show really messed with the timeline of Marks death  by making Harris so young while keeping everyone else the normal  chronological  age.  Was Becky about 24 when Mark died or in her early 30s by this shows’  reckoning? I have a couple of cousins who lost their spouse in their late 20s suddenly.  They were indeed emotional messes for years.  Their lives did take a downward spiral.  

 

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10 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

I vaguely remember them saying that David had his breakdown and left Darlene shortly after Mark's death, and that he wasn't around to help raise Mark (his son). So, I guess Mark died shortly before or after the younger Mark was born, which would be about 13 years ago. But I could be misremembering. I've only watched these episodes once.

Glenn Quinn died in 2002, so while that's longer than 13 years ago, I can believe that Mark died around the same time (which would mean the younger Mark came along a few years later).

9 hours ago, geauxaway said:

 I’d liked to know how they were married so long and never had kids.  

It could have just been one of those cases where they were very much in love, but for whatever reason, it simply never happened for them (if Becky ever stopped taking the pill so they could try, that is). She WAS pregnant at the very end of season 9, and she & Mark were keeping it a secret since Harris had just come home from the hospital, but given how much of that season was retconned, I can believe that if she is supposed to have been pregnant during that time that it ended in a miscarriage shortly thereafter. 

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7 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

 

I didn't remember that Becky didn't want to attend community college. I do think there was more of a stigma but it sure would have been better than just not going at all. Did Becky also drop out and get a GED? My memory is fuzzy. 

 

 

She didn't want to go to community college because in her teenage mind, she thought she would just keep working at the Buy n'Bag grocery store and "wind up just like YOU!" (Roseanne). It could have just been a spur of the moment reaction after finding out there was no money to send her to a "typical" college, but it was her initial reaction at the time.

I do believe she at least got her GED, though, after moving to Minneapolis. 

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1 hour ago, izabella said:

I hope adult Darlene gets a clue and starts researching financial aid and scholarship options for when Mark goes to college.

I hope Mark is smart enough to speak with a school counselor. I would think he knows he can’t depend on his mother by now. She will fight for him but yelling is easy. Research and filing forms are hard.

Harris almost got into college but she had to find out all on her own about the program that the retail job offered. And before Harris got laid off for a separate reason, Darlene almost ruined it for her.

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This was a very good listen - thanks!  Gave me mixed feelings because it sounds like a toxic atmosphere caused by Tom Arnold. Weirdly, though, I have always thought the Tom Arnold years are when the show became truly great, so I've always had mixed feelings about it.

Tom Arnold was a very good writer for the show but he is a crappy person. When Roseanne became romantically involved with him, she crammed him down our throats on the show, inserting him in every situation even if his character didn't belong there. He's the reason we got Nancy (ugh) and lost Bonnie. And then when they broke up Roseanne lost her mind and we got the whole, horrid Lotto season.

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35 minutes ago, UYI said:

It could have just been one of those cases where they were very much in love, but for whatever reason, it simply never happened for them (if Becky ever stopped taking the pill so they could try, that is). She WAS pregnant at the very end of season 9, and she & Mark were keeping it a secret since Harris had just come home from the hospital, but given how much of that season was retconned, I can believe that if she is supposed to have been pregnant during that time that it ended in a miscarriage shortly thereafter. 

I totally forgot about that.  But I just feel like babies would have happened early and often because they seemed like that kind of couple.  To be stereotypical, which I am being.  I can’t even 100% remember why she was gung ho on being the other Becky’s surrogate.  Was it just for the money?   
 

Do we know how many years ago Mark died?  How long they were married when it happened?  Again, if they referenced this I missed it.

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13 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

It's because Darlene is a crap mother. If she spent any time with Mark, she would know that he was on it. She assumed he wouldn't be able to do it without cheating. She doesn't know her own kid.

I hate to think of Darlene as a crap mother, but she really is. I don't like how Jackie is being written either, because I so loved my a bit crazy aunt.

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58 minutes ago, geauxaway said:

I totally forgot about that.  But I just feel like babies would have happened early and often because they seemed like that kind of couple.  To be stereotypical, which I am being.  I can’t even 100% remember why she was gung ho on being the other Becky’s surrogate.  Was it just for the money?   
 

Do we know how many years ago Mark died?  How long they were married when it happened?  Again, if they referenced this I missed it.

I'm just glad she didn't get pregnant when they eloped. It would have been the obvious thing and thankfully they gave Becky an out in case she wanted to leave Mark and start her life over again.

They have never said when Mark died, but Glenn Quin died in 2002, so my guess is around that time. 

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12 hours ago, geauxaway said:

The stimulus checks she received on behalf of Mark should have well covered this.  Even if she needs to use a majority of it for bills and living expenses....she should have received $2600 give or take (I can’t keep track to be honest) in total for her dependent.  She couldn’t have spared even $200 from that to hire a tutor?  For cash?

At this point she is like Beverly Goldberg levels of cringe.  How many times has she gone off stomping up on the school for their wrongs against her precious kid?  The Halloween thing, the mall / voting thing, I think there was something else.  Now this.  Ok Darlene. 

Especially when she was able to afford a therapist and had the option of selling her Hawaii tickets (would the trip have happened already?).

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So I remember that Becky had the financial aid worksheets in front of her, but because they relied on her parents' income the previous year, she didn't qualify for full aid.  And she did intend to go to community college in Minnesota, after she got her GED, but I believe Mark lost his job as a union mechanic, and she decided to go to work instead.  I think in Becky's mind, when she left for Minneapolis, it was a choice between "community college with the man she wanted to marry who has a good union job, out of her parent's house" and "community college while living at home and dealing with your parent's stress of being unemployed and unhappy".  If Mark had kept his job in Minneapolis, and if Becky hadn't been so stubborn about trying to turn him into a better provider, she probably would have gotten her associate's degree back then.

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Also, I still remember Mark tying David's tie in episode 8-23 the wedding, when he told David that their parents were bastards and that the Connors were their family now.  And he said that his dad had taught him how to tie a bow tie, and that it was the only thing he ever taught him, and that it was the only thing their dad could have done for him, and that David didn't need him any more.  It was such good acting.  Glenn Quinn rocked it.  In that moment, he was a a grown man, and a punk kid who was looking out for his little brother, and it was one of the best moments in the original series, in my opinion.

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I'm willing to forgive any continuity errors for the scene with Dan and Becky because holy crap, that was amazing. Dan (the character) has always reminded me a little of my own dad, including in the original Roseanne. Dan is a bit more liberal and accepting than my dad (I can only imagine what would happen if I had a kid who was non-binary since my dad has become uber conservative in his old age) but when he has scenes like this, it really gets me. I remember in the original when he picked up the ringing phone and it was Becky and he just refused to talk and handed the phone off. That would be my dad. As would him calling in the middle of the night and giving me advice about how to weatherproof my windows in lieu of saying I love you. All that being said, I can see him holding on to some resentment for Mark all these years. He had this brilliant daughter that had dreams and goals of being better off than her parents and she ended up where she is. He's not going to blame his own daughter for her choices, he's going to blame the guy who took his first baby away. 

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2 hours ago, Janie430 said:

So I remember that Becky had the financial aid worksheets in front of her, but because they relied on her parents' income the previous year, she didn't qualify for full aid.  And she did intend to go to community college in Minnesota, after she got her GED, but I believe Mark lost his job as a union mechanic, and she decided to go to work instead.  I think in Becky's mind, when she left for Minneapolis, it was a choice between "community college with the man she wanted to marry who has a good union job, out of her parent's house" and "community college while living at home and dealing with your parent's stress of being unemployed and unhappy".  If Mark had kept his job in Minneapolis, and if Becky hadn't been so stubborn about trying to turn him into a better provider, she probably would have gotten her associate's degree back then.

Did Becky work in Minnesota? If Mark worked as a mechanic what did Becky do all day? It shouldn't have taken her that long to get her GED. While Mark worked, Becky could've been working after she got her GED to build some type of savings to go to college and probably gotten financial aid or scholarship that way.

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