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Scarlett45

S15.E10: Polygamy Hell

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5 hours ago, 1plus3 said:

It was like a masterclass in how to invalidate someone’s feelings (and closely resembles arguments given to women to stay in domestic violence situations). 

 

2 minutes ago, 65mickey said:

This is brilliant. I so wish that you could say this to Christine and to Meri. You absolutely nailed it. 

Absolutely hit the nail on the head.  And vomit inducing to hear a "sister wife" encouraging another to stick around for a lifetime of emotional abuse.

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14 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

All these past 147 seasons, I've been wanting Janelle to wake up from her stupor and SAY SOMETHING.  Now that she has, all I want is for her to shut her yap because everything that comes out of it is either nonsensical therapy-speak or passive-aggressive belittling of other people's feelings.  Be careful what you wish for, I guess

Janelle has what she wants- a "need-free" relationship. She doesn't have to meet Kody's needs and she gets her needs ignored because she only needs, well, nothing. I honestly think she's afraid to want or need a relationship with anyone including her kids.

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21 hours ago, bobalina said:

I am mildly. It's more a lack of parents interested in helping their kid. I'd bet the only real time Kody ever spent with his kids was on camera.

So you were reading at two but are mildly dyslexic? Hmm

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2 hours ago, laurakaye said:

a woman who almost ran away with a banana

OMG!!  You win the internets today. 🤣

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2 hours ago, Shelbie said:

I’m sure he thinks that the viewers are cheering him on and thinking “poor Kody “ look at what he has to put up with.

Wonder who he thinks watches this shit show. His plyg brothers? 

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My ongoing suspicion that all Kody’s “marriages” except the one with Robyn ended some time ago is strengthened after watching Kody’s treatment of Ysabel. 

In my experience, sOme men behave similarly toward their children after a divorce. They are either busy finding a new gf or building a relationship with a current gf and her children. These fathers frequently fail to pick up their own children after scheduling a special weekend or dinner date. They won’t even FaceTime during the days between visits.

 
My former bil has been a model father and grandfather to his new wife’s family, but he barely saw his own children the first four years after the divorce. And guess what? All his children except for one, brag on what a great dad he is. It seems to me that when a man treats his children this way long enough, they are so desperate to be seeing him again they will do/believe anything to keep that up.  This also resulted in some inexplicable resentment towards the mother who was just trying to get on with her own life as well.  Hmmm

My late mil said back in the ‘30’s it was common for men to straight up leave their families when divorcing and start over without any back and forth with the children. 

So if Kody is not already “divorced” from a couple (at least) of his “wives”,  his behavior shows us that his heart is divorced. He clearly is disgusted by their lack of whatever “values” he personally finds relevant - though their shared religion isn’t among those reasons?? 
Do the ladies not share his Qanon values? 
And does he plan to simply leave his children alone with such “valueless” women?
 

Edited by Just Wondering
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10 hours ago, 1plus3 said:

I think that last scene where Meri took Christine away was such an insight and confirmation of what a gross ‘keep sweet’ culture they still very much live in.

It was like a masterclass in how to invalidate someone’s feelings (and closely resembles arguments given to women to stay in domestic violence situations). 

“look at the mountain” Translates to distract yourself, what you’re feeling and expressing is unacceptable. She’s basically saying to Christine be quiet, you’re breaking the rules. 

“don’t say that!” No translation necessary - literal suppression of honest, emotional expression. 

”you’re hurting right now” Sadly, rather than said in compassion, this was said as a reason to be quiet and not express how Christine really feels

”you’re not a quitter” Shaming Christine for daring to give voice to her needs and leave rather than continuing to suffer. Implying there is pride in her staying with an abusive neglectful partner (and shame in leaving)

”you know what I’ve been through” Again shaming Christine by implying Christine hasn’t suffered as much as Meri and therefore has no right to consider leaving. 

“make it enough” Implying Christine’s pain is her fault, she just needs to work harder.

The whole interaction was scary. Meri urgently invalidated Christine’s pain, pressuring her to be quiet and basically “keep sweet.”

 

 

1000 times YES to your post.

3 hours ago, Chicklet said:

Janelle has what she wants- a "need-free" relationship. She doesn't have to meet Kody's needs and she gets her needs ignored because she only needs, well, nothing. I honestly think she's afraid to want or need a relationship with anyone including her kids.

Nah, she's too apathetic to want to have much of a relationship.  I've long felt she likes having a part time husband.  And that's OK if it is who she is.  

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On 4/18/2021 at 8:07 PM, Raynedon said:

Saying his 8 year old son was "learning" to read?!?!?  The kid should have been reading books with chapters for a few years already, not just now learning to read at 8 years old.

 

My oldest flat out REFUSED to read until 2nd grade.  Why?  I was a stay at home Mom that catered to her every whim (read:spoiled) which included no less than 3 books a day with “the voices”.  I had to put my foot down at 2nd grade/8 yrs. old.  She’s been a voracious reader since then and an A student.

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2 hours ago, OdinO. said:

So you were reading at two but are mildly dyslexic? Hmm

Simple. Parents that read to me every day. The books were Dr, Seuss type books. The rhymes are very conducive  to memorization. When they found I had memorized a couple books they decided it was time to start reading. Honestly the only reason more kids don't read early is lazy parents.

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Just now, bobalina said:

Simple. Parents that read to me every day. The books were Dr, Seuss type books. The rhymes are very conducive  to memorization. When they found I had memorized a couple books they decided it was time to start reading. Honestly the only reason more kids don't read early is lazy parents.

I wish that was the case.  I read every day and my kid just doesn't like it.  Hubby and I still read constantly.  

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35 minutes ago, itsadryheat said:

The image of Janelle, frozen in her camping chair when Christine cries after she sincerely "communicates" her thoughts on moving to Utah and simultaneously receives a unanimous "hell no" from the Golden Girls and realizes she was set up by kody.

Quite the polar opposite response from ep 1 during the lunch meeting, where Robyn asks Janelle if she is referring to her, and she leaps from her chair to hug and comfort Robyn. 

This is the woman that did all the heavy lifting, practically raised her kids while she worked, and she just sat there, stone dead.

 

 

Janelle is smart enought to know that one does not upset Queen Robyn without facing the wrath of Kody. Comforting Christine is not worth getting on Kody's bad side at least to Janelle. 

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Every episode Kody reveals more layers of how awful he is. I had to come up with a new hybrid term for this pos. To me he will now be called a Douchehole!

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Honestly the only reason more kids don't read early is lazy parents.

I can't agree with this sweeping generalization. There are a ton of reasons some kids don't read and most of them don't have anything to do with "lazy" parents. And there are tons of parents who are the opposite of "lazy" and would love nothing more than to have the time to read to their kids, but it takes all their time and energy to provide for their kids' basic needs (like, I don't know, healthcare).

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Poor eyesight is another reason that kids don't read.  I wonder if Sol has ever had an eye exam?  

Edited by deirdra
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2 hours ago, aulait said:

As an aside, I did wonder why she needed to travel to NJ for it though.

Well, they took her to some place in Michigan for "boot camp" to try to get the angle reduced. She has a sister in NJ so it is likely she expected she would get more emotional support from the sister than from Kody, but I don't know how she chose the doctor.  I also think she may have wanted to be away from the cameras.  It would be one thing for her to do some videos on her phone, but I think if they stayed in Flagstaff Kody would have cameras in Ysabel's face and make it all about how he is the most supportive dad in the universe. 

Has he tweeted anything after the show aired?

 

 

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I haven't been able to stop thinking about Christine since this episode aired.  I noticed that she hasn't been tweeting this season. I hope she is doing well.  She is and will always be my favorite.  A few weeks ago, she said something in her confession that I found rather interesting.  She said that she regretted putting her kids last. I have a feeling her three adult children have been in her ears about how they were raised.  It’s no secret that Christine and her kids were the least of the apostles, so it would hardly come as a surprise if her children were resentful. I have a feeling her family wants her to ditch the gang, move back to Utah and start a new life without Kody. I hope she does.  

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1 hour ago, Texasmom1970 said:

Every episode Kody reveals more layers of how awful he is. I had to come up with a new hybrid term for this pos. To me he will now be called a Douchehole!

Every time I see him, I think RatBastard.

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On 4/20/2021 at 12:53 PM, readheaded said:

I think he’s really pissed at and bitter with Christine for being so vehemently against his one giant house and living together idea.  He’s just a terrible excuse for a human being. 

He's pissed at and bitter with Meri over the catfish. With Christine about her opposition to the big house. Next season we'll add his bitterness to Janelle over COVID. He doesn't take ownership for his role in ANY of these issues. He likes to think he's the head of the family but he's not. He's so passive! 

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I've seen tweets criticizing Kody, using a screen shot of Ysabel's sorrowful face when her dad wasn't interested in getting the surgery for her.  I wish people would use a photo of Kody looking deranged instead (not hard to find).

If I were Ysabel, I'd feel doubly-bad and doubly-embarrassed to have my picture posted all over Twitter, reminding people that my dad seemingly doesn't care about me.

Forgot to add, I felt really weird during some of this episode.  Watching Christine cry, almost beg her "family" to move to Utah, have her kid's medical needs disregarded by her shitty husband.....  When she had her head in her hands at Coyote Pass, OMG was that awful to watch.  It felt like some weird fetish porn.  Sad porn, maybe?  If that doesn't already exist, I think it was created Sunday night.

Edited by CouchTater
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13 minutes ago, CouchTater said:

 

Forgot to add, I felt really weird during some of this episode.  Watching Christine cry, almost beg her "family" to move to Utah, have her kid's medical needs disregarded by her shitty husband.....  When she had her head in her hands at Coyote Pass, OMG was that awful to watch.  It felt like some weird fetish porn.  Sad porn, maybe?  If that doesn't already exist, I think it was created Sunday night.

What got me more than anything was that not one of them got off their rumps to console a woman in obvious pain.  After Meri ensured that the cameras would be on them, she drew Christine aside, not to comfort her, but to attempt to convince her to "suck it up", for Meri's own nefarious reasons, whatever they may be. 

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3 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I can't agree with this sweeping generalization. There are a ton of reasons some kids don't read and most of them don't have anything to do with "lazy" parents. And there are tons of parents who are the opposite of "lazy" and would love nothing more than to have the time to read to their kids, but it takes all their time and energy to provide for their kids' basic needs (like, I don't know, healthcare).

I agree with you.  I'm a voracious reader who read early and then went on to start reading to my 3 sons while they were in utero.  We went to the library at least once a week, they had tons of books, and I read to them everyday.  I even coached the youngest's "Battle of the Books" teams.  Now in early adulthood, none of them read much.  

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2 minutes ago, readheaded said:

I agree with you.  I'm a voracious reader who read early and then went on to start reading to my 3 sons while they were in utero.  We went to the library at least once a week, they had tons of books, and I read to them everyday.  I even coached the youngest's "Battle of the Books" teams.  Now in early adulthood, none of them read much.  

My son loved having me read to him when he was small - over his childhood we read every Junie B. Jones book ever written, all the Captain Underpants books, all the Magic Treehouse books, Call of the Wild, and all of the Narnia series. He loved them all. I read to him until he was in middle school every night. And you know he loves audio books, but he still doesn't sit down and read books very often. My hubby and I are voracious readers - it's just not his thing.

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2 minutes ago, NoWhammies said:

My son loved having me read to him when he was small - over his childhood we read every Junie B. Jones book ever written, all the Captain Underpants books, all the Magic Treehouse books, Call of the Wild, and all of the Narnia series. He loved them all. I read to him until he was in middle school every night. And you know he loves audio books, but he still doesn't sit down and read books very often. My hubby and I are voracious readers - it's just not his thing.

Children's books are one thing I really miss about not having little kids.  :) 

Edited by readheaded
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40 minutes ago, readheaded said:

Now in early adulthood, none of them read much.  

Very quickly, this may be because they read all day for their jobs (email/internet/written reports) and are sorta done with reading in their free time (that is my experience).

One of the things that struck me during the whole family move to Utah discussion was Janelle replying that she felt angry about it.  This is after the meeting to discuss meeting rules for meetings.  I think one of the rules written on the easel was they would not get angry when responding to conversations (it was written, not spoken), and I thought, "Well Done, Janelle!"  We now see why the rule is there.

Kody is a complete douche tool setting Christine up this way; I wonder what she now thinks after seeing the episode?

I once had a boss I admired who would respond to angry stake owners by stating things like, It is a connundrum, isn't it? As in, Christine presents us with a conundrum, we moved here for our vision of being together on this property and yet no work has been done.  Or compelling, Christine provides a compelling reason to consider the move, we like Utah and polygamy is no longer illegal.  No it, went to Kody keeping quiet after Christine thought he had her back.  The third "C" he is a cocksucker.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I can't agree with this sweeping generalization. There are a ton of reasons some kids don't read and most of them don't have anything to do with "lazy" parents. And there are tons of parents who are the opposite of "lazy" and would love nothing more than to have the time to read to their kids, but it takes all their time and energy to provide for their kids' basic needs (like, I don't know, healthcare).

Not all kids are ready mentally or physically to read at the same age, regardless of what their parents do. In fact, the push for early reading has little to no effect on future academic success. It's not a matter of simply reading and being ahead of the game or not reading and being behind. Many children have literacy skills without being able to read. One of my children, my most avid reader now, knew her letters, knew the sounds, could even identify some words by sight, but flat out refused to read until she was 9. But once she started, she jumped to simple chapter books within a week. 

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On 4/20/2021 at 3:02 PM, NoWhammies said:

I apologize that what I said came off as dismissive and insensitive. That's what I get for dashing off a message in the middle of a work day. I also have Hashimoto's with all of the ups and downs that entails.

The point I was making was that there are treatments for thyroid disorders - known treatments. So when someone gets properly diagnosed, there is a treatment available. Whether that treatment works well for someone is, of course, always individual and depends on a number of factors including the willingness of the physician to do something about it (I had to fight for years to get my doctor to give me the "right" treatment that I knew would work for me).

My point wasn't that people with Hashimoto's can take some drugs and boom, they're fine. My point was that, given what I understand about these nincompoops, they wouldn't even consider finding out what was wrong so there could be a chance for treatment.

So again, I apologize for offending you. 

Yes. I'm sorry. Please see my mea culpa above. 

I feel partially responsible for this derail by flippantly discussing my experience with plain ol' hypo--the truth is that we can't know what's causing Robyn's swelling, but a thyroid disorder is a good enough guess. And as I've been schooled upthread, hypo won't cause goiter (if that's what she indeed has). At the end of the day, girlfriend needs to get her shit checked, just like Jenelle should have done with her face nugget, just like all of them need to have their heads examined. Instead they play at performative therapy to give boring fodder to the TV so they can buy more cars that don't work, land they don't live on, wet bars for people who supposedly don't drink, and word art proclaiming scruples they don't have. 

And I don't care, do I? No, I only care that the kids get the help--mental, physical, and emotional--that they need and deserve.

I do appreciate the education, though, and all of your experiences, because I am only recently diagnosed and still learning what it's going to take to adjust to this disorder as I age.

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I finally finished the finale this morning. I'm surprised but then not surprised no one got up to comfort Christine when she was breaking down. They always fall over theirselves trying to comfort Robyn when she cries. Janelle was not being a good friend to Christine. Kody is a bad person. Seeing her sad TH's was painful to watch. Kody is sadistic.

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Wonder if old RatBastard Kodouchehole (love those, btw!) has had a chance to see what his gazillions of fans have been saying??

Perhaps THIS is the reason  his IG has gone to the dark side of the moon?

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On 4/18/2021 at 10:42 PM, Soaper410 said:

This episode the first 90 minutes a (not 100% accurate recap): 

Kody:  I hate that I can't just live with Robyn. 

Janelle:  Since the pandemic started, I've re-watched all the old episodes.  I have determined we suck at communication. 

Robyn: I am going to not so subtly suggest my sister wives may be at a higher risk for Covid because of their weight without saying it. 

Meri: Thank God that I'm not the reason nobody is happy. 

*****

Christine:  Lets make the worst financial decision possible and move back to Utah. 

Kody:  This could get us another season....hmmm....I like this super stupid decision.  Yes!

*****

Christine:  Ysabel needs surgery now. 

Kody:  HOW DARE MY DAUGHTER'S SURGERY NOT BE ABOUT ME. 

Christine: Screw you. 

Kody: Hey, Aspen no Truly no whoever you are, listen who gives an ish if you are in pain?  You are like 16 by now, probably.  Go across the country by yourself and have major surgery.  

Christine (on the phone):  Hey Meri, question can I have the number of the catfish lady so I can make Kody never come to my house again?

Ysabel:  I hate you. 

******

Janelle: Listen, I am headed to NC.  Peace out.  

Kody:  I can't leave and go to NC for my granddaughter's surgery because I am not seeing Christine or Meri either  

Janelle:  So...I miss our flow. 

Kody: We good girl.  You my 2nd favorite wife.  We gonna rekindle our romance when I get back

Janelle:  Oh?  You planning on cutting your hair?

Kody:  What?

*****

Robyn:  Here is our dirt with the drainage hole.  This reminds me of our hopes and dreams.  

Kody:  Christine, do you think just because we have no power or water lines to this dirt trap in 2+ years that our houses won't happen?

Christine:  Well, no one on line thinks we are ever going to build?

Kody:  Well we also don't have any plans for houses. 

Janelle:  I ain't saying Christine is lying but she ain't telling the truth about her kids being bullied. 

Robyn: Nope, not moving.  

Janelle:  Your kids live in Utah, that's why you want to go there, but I barely know their names. 

Kody: Me either.  

Meri: Utah doesn't deserve me.  I am a successful boss babe now.  

Kody:  I am 100% against this even though I didn't say that one on one.  Its because I'm the victim in all of this.

Janelle:  We ain't doing it Christine but I want to pretend like we care by saying "I honor you."   This sucks for you. 

Robyn:  Utah is like the viewers of this show, not friendly to me. 

Kody: That was a terrible pitch.  Christine should have asked Meri for tips on how to sell things better. 

Meri:  You can't quit this relationship first when I have planned that for the last season.   Look at the mountain.

Christine *closes her eyes* you can't make me look. 

Robyn *glares at the non-friendly COVID hug*

*****

 

This is one of the best posts I've ever read on this forum (and there are many, many excellent, informative and insightful ones). Thank you.

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9 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I can't agree with this sweeping generalization. There are a ton of reasons some kids don't read and most of them don't have anything to do with "lazy" parents. And there are tons of parents who are the opposite of "lazy" and would love nothing more than to have the time to read to their kids, but it takes all their time and energy to provide for their kids' basic needs (like, I don't know, healthcare).

I couldn't agree more.  My daughter would never sit still when I would attempt to read to her.  I am an avid reader and always have a book in my hand (of course these days it is a digital book) and was so looking forward to sharing my love of books and reading with her.  Several years later a diagnosis of ADHD and Dyslexia helped me understand that she was going to be someone who had to learn differently.  She is now a college graduate and works with autistic children and I am very proud of her - but she still doesn't like to read!

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On 4/19/2021 at 3:03 PM, NotinKansasanymore said:

Clearly Christine was upset and devastated about not moving to Utah, and Janelle still responds in anger during her talking head on the couch, with things like, "she is just going to throw this all away," and basically accusing her of making up the Ysabel getting teased at school.

I think Christine was more upset about Krusty throwing her under the bus re: moving to Utah.  In their private conversation, he had seemed like he was brought around to her way of thinking, with the caveat that it would be a tough sell for the other wives, which Christine agreed with.  I expect she figured he would at least say something like, "Well, hold on now.  Maybe this isn't such a nutty idea," or *anything* to give her a taste of the support she'd been led to expect.

If Dagwood had done this to Blondie, he would have been banished from the marital bed to the couch.  Denying sex to a misbehaving husband is the joking and sometimes not joking stereotypical response to this kind of thing.  Poor Christine doesn't even have that option.

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On 4/19/2021 at 4:45 PM, Sandy W said:

The decision to have the surgery in NJ may have been multi-pronged.  Christine very likely engaged with other families facing the same situation as she did and a particular surgeon or the success rate of that hospital may have come highly recommended by others.  There was also the insurance factor that was alluded to on the show, she may not have been able to fully fund the surgery up front and that facility may have been receptive to a payment plan.  The fact that her sister lived in NJ and was willing to host Christine and daughters for the long haul, saving the cost of a short term rental would also have been a consideration.  I'm not sure that they would have been eligible for Ronald McDonald House.

Families like the Browns would likely bankrupt the Ronald McDonald house.

I think you're right about there being some financial reason for having the surgery done in NJ, and Christine's sister living there is certainly a big consideration.  But a bigger consideration imo is Isabel's suffering.  They've already wasted so much time, and Isabel tried so hard, because they apparently did not want/could not pay for the surgery she has needed for a long time.  They probably got the quack treatments for free.

There is national health insurance available for children (CHIP), and this is from the standards for eligibity:

The Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) is a joint federal and state program that provides health coverage to uninsured children in families with incomes too high to qualify for Medicaid, but too low to afford private coverage. Please see the Children’s Annual Enrollment Reports for more information on current and historical enrollment. The upper eligibility levels in separate CHIPs range from as low as 170 percent of the Federal poverty level (FPL) up to 400 percent of the FPL, and vary by state. CHIP and Medicaid eligibility levels can be viewed on the Medicaid and CHIP Eligibility Levels page.  https://www.medicaid.gov/chip/eligibility/index.html

If all the Brown children have no health insurance, that's another--and really, really serious--mark against Krusty.  You do not father a zillion children without being ready to provide basic care for them; in other words, unless you're willing to do what you can to keep them alive.

If the surgery were done closer to home, Christine would have the support such as it is of her loving <snort> sister wives.

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14 minutes ago, Mothra said:

Families like the Browns would likely bankrupt the Ronald McDonald house.

I think you're right about there being some financial reason for having the surgery done in NJ, and Christine's sister living there is certainly a big consideration.  But a bigger consideration imo is Isabel's suffering.  They've already wasted so much time, and Isabel tried so hard, because they apparently did not want/could not pay for the surgery she has needed for a long time.  They probably got the quack treatments for free.

There is national health insurance available for children (CHIP), and this is from the standards for eligibity:

The Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) is a joint federal and state program that provides health coverage to uninsured children in families with incomes too high to qualify for Medicaid, but too low to afford private coverage. Please see the Children’s Annual Enrollment Reports for more information on current and historical enrollment. The upper eligibility levels in separate CHIPs range from as low as 170 percent of the Federal poverty level (FPL) up to 400 percent of the FPL, and vary by state. CHIP and Medicaid eligibility levels can be viewed on the Medicaid and CHIP Eligibility Levels page.  https://www.medicaid.gov/chip/eligibility/index.html

If all the Brown children have no health insurance, that's another--and really, really serious--mark against Krusty.  You do not father a zillion children without being ready to provide basic care for them; in other words, unless you're willing to do what you can to keep them alive.

If the surgery were done closer to home, Christine would have the support such as it is of her loving <snort> sister wives.

Even if the kids didn’t qualify for CHIP, they could all look at the ACA policies in their state and buy insurance there if it were a priority. The ACA’s been law for over 10 years.  Ysabel could have had insurance and surgery long before now. 

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1 hour ago, Kellyee said:

Christine is only trapped by her own mind set, that she has to stick out this marriage, that this even IS a marriage anymore. She needs to come to the realization that God doesn't intend for her to suffer this way, with a spiritual husband who doesn't care about her at all, and even mocks her and talks shit about her behind her back but on camera, so she'll see it later and be hurt by it.

I have to wonder if she sees it now.  Kody isn't even trying anymore, or pretending to care about her or her girls at this point.  We as viewers see it plain as day.  I keep waiting for a post to show up in her thread from a gossip rag that there's a For Sale sign up on her house.  And of course, she has two strong women as role models that left polygamy.  I hope Christine's mom watched this last episode and called her to beg her to leave her emotionally abusive "husband"...not sure where Annie lives but I am sure that she would take in Christine and her girls if she's able.

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3 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

I have to wonder if she sees it now.

Well, she didn't see it when he almost offed her youngest.  She didn't see it when he humiliated Ysabel.  She's as selfish and narcissistic as he is if he only thing that penetrates her bobble head is if he treats her badly.  Great mom there. 

If she didn't leave because he caused harm and pain to her children then screw her.  Let her hitch her afterlife to the abuser.

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I wonder if the dark-haired, preexistence baby checked to make sure Ysabel had insurance before bat-signalling Robyn. 

Edited by Just Wondering
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26 minutes ago, itsadryheat said:

How long would it take for him to realize they are gone.

if we're going by the unnoticed Mariah departure, then I'm going to say 2 weeks (minimum)

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7 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

if we're going by the unnoticed Mariah departure, then I'm going to say 2 weeks (minimum)

How sad is that? They must not communicate at all! 

 

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