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S01.E06: One World, One People

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On 4/26/2021 at 4:21 PM, blackwing said:

Isn't part of atonement that the wronged person grant forgiveness?  I will be sad if the two of them aren't friends anymore. 

I agree with @Ailianna.  The wronged person is under no obligation to forgive. Forgiveness can be given, but not compelled. That doesn't mean the person doing the atoning isn't sincere, or that Bucky didn't do everything he could to atone to Yori. But he can't insist that Yori forgive him. For what it's worth, I don't think we missed anything by not seeing Yori's response to what Bucky confessed. I think the old man probably said "You need to leave now," or something -- it seemed clear that their friendship is irretrievable, but Bucky still cares about Yori; Bucky seemed satisfied, on looking in the window, that Yori will be able to go on with his life, and that he has people around him who care about him. I think he's trying to follow Sam's advice, and not make his atonement about his needs, but about Yori's.

I'm still not convinced by Sharon's turn. I get that she feels burned; but since when does such a sense of betrayal lead not to bitterness or cynicism, but to full-on megalomania and a thirst for power? Nope -- I don't buy it. It's too extreme an about-face from the woman who, as mentioned upthread, told Steve Rogers to "plant yourself like a tree" to defend what you know is right. (And I don't like the icky Woman Scorned implication that Sharon's doing this because she's pissed at Steve.)

Unless Agent 13 was always a Hydra plant inside SHIELD (or Leviathan, like Crazy Contessa Don't-Call-Me Val), this twist does not work.

(I have no problem with Louis-Dreyfus's casting; if anything, the Contessa's faintly comical demeanor just makes her seemed unhinged and dangerous.)

On 4/27/2021 at 7:41 AM, paigow said:

Walker is now "Captain" of Team Val... he has returned to his emotional comfort zone so stability is not an issue... until the next mission

I'm sure I saw him give an enormous twitch after the Contessa left, while he was chanting "I'm back, I'm back, I'm back..." to himself. No way in hell is Walker anywhere close to stable, despite the fact that he tried to do the right thing in the last battle.

Edited by Sandman · Reason: Typos -- lots and lots of typos!
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Sharon has certainly fallen out of the 'hero' category, but I'm more inclined to label her as mercenary than villain at this point.

I'm sure from her perspective she is only playing the game, and only hurting those that are also in the game. She can still point at people who are blowing up civilians (Zemo at the UN) or murdering hostages (Karli) and say she is not as bad as them.

 

I don't think the show is in any doubt she has had a moral decline, as she is exploiting and perpetuating the exact systematic inequalities it was examining, as well as employing straight up evil ex-Hydra scientists. But I think she has been burnt enough that she no longer believes in the possiblity of changing the world for the better.

 

It's not what I wanted for Sharon - I was hoping she remained a simple good guy - but it is interesting. If we see her in the MCU it could be in the utility player now that we have lost Batroc, or we could get a test of how far she has fallen and what lines she will still not cross.

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On 4/26/2021 at 2:21 PM, blackwing said:

So I guess he's not going to continue hanging out with Yori?  Isn't part of atonement that the wronged person grant forgiveness?  I will be sad if the two of them aren't friends anymore.  Who is going to watch out for Yori and prevent him from getting into arguments with neighbours over the trash bins?

What I struggle with Bucky's atonement is that the guy... literally didn't do anything wrong. He was a POW that was brainwashed and programmed against his will. None of this was his choice. And none of this is his fault.

What I would like is to see Bucky work on not carrying guilt for the Winter Soldier. On accepting that he was a victim, that he was violated, and working on his own trauma. The atonement list grates me because it doesn't really deal with his issues. Or rather what his issues should be. 

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2 hours ago, ursula said:

He was a POW that was brainwashed and programmed against his will. None of this was his choice. And none of this is his fault.

Bucky himself, it would seem, might have disagreed with you earlier in the story. Isn't it in Civil War that he says "I still did it"?

I agree that Bucky didn't choose to do it -- and he himself is able to verbalize that with Yori -- but it does seem in character for him not to absolve himself of responsibility completely, at least not yet. But I think he's changing, and I think the story did a good job of acknowledging that.

The shot of Bucky chatting happily while the nephews hang out on his metal arm was one of my favourite moments in the series, too -- and I liked the moment where Bucky is shown bringing a cake to Sam's party almost as much; he's included! He's contributing! He's becoming a whole person again. The shot of the arm-as-plaything was very hopeful, because it suggests that the arm is no longer some monstrous appendage -- it's fully under his control, and is no longer a threat to him or those close to him.

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2 hours ago, ursula said:

What I struggle with Bucky's atonement is that the guy... literally didn't do anything wrong. He was a POW that was brainwashed and programmed against his will. None of this was his choice. And none of this is his fault.

At the same time, people are dead. Even if we come to the conclusion that Howard Stark was foolish to not protect himself better and that Jasper Sitwell deserved to be thrown into rush hour traffic like a bag of laundry, the bystanders like Maria Stark and Yori's son were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, witnesses to the Winter Soldier's crimes who were eliminated to keep them from talking. How many other innocent victims must there have been, the ones who begged for their lives only for their pleas to be ignored? Do those deaths weigh less because Bucky didn't mean to?

No, it wasn't his fault, and no he didn't have a choice, but he's not John Walker, who can beat a man to death while in full control of his faculties and never seem to care in the aftermath. Hell, John didn't even acknowledge he was out of control while fighting with Sam and Bucky, that he probably would have hurt either or both of them a lot worse if Sam hadn't broken his arm. I do think his burden is lighter than it has been in a long time, that he's found his way into a world that accepts him, even if the navigation of that world is still a little rocky. I just have a difficult time knowing why anyone would think, Yeah, he should just let it go.

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2 hours ago, Sandman said:

but it does seem in character for him not to absolve himself of responsibility completely, at least not yet.

Yes that's my point. That Bucky's actual growth is accepting he's not to blame for those deaths. Absolution would imply he was responsible and he's forgiving himself. Which is what he's currently doing. It rings false to me. Basically the show is side stepping Bucky's own abuse/his agency being stolen and not having him deal with it. 

 

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Do those deaths weigh less because Bucky didn't mean to?

His growth means getting to the point where he feels sorrow, not guilt for those deaths. Basically Bucky is refusing to acknowledge his own abuse. He's deflecting dealing with what was do to him by focusing on what he was made to do to others. 

 

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On 4/27/2021 at 6:51 AM, Spartan Girl said:

WandaVision did it better.

If they wanted to go with a Dark Sharon storyline there were a million better ways to do it. Instead of having her be the Power Broker, they could have had her be part of the Flag-Smashers, and that’s how Sam and Bucky meet up with her during out of their first encounters with the group. It would up the stakes and emphasize their conflicted feelings about the group: it’s easy to Karli to win sympathy just because “she’s a kid” but to have someone they know be sucked into the group and radicalized? That would pack a more powerful punch, and feel more organic to boot.

Also it would have been better if the show allowed Sharon to express her hurt and anger when confronting Sam and Bucky instead of mean girl snark. Something like “I threw away my whole life to help you, and that was my choice, but why didn’t you back me up? You and Steve just forgot about me? Did he even care?” Oh I would have loved for that to lead to them telling her what Steve did.**

And actually build the relationship between her and Karli and maybe eventually lead to a falling out where Sharon and a few others become disturbed by Karli resorting to full-on terrorism. That was a missed opportunity too, since some of her followers were clearly becoming uneasy with her. 

But as it was, her heel turn just felt like a lazy way to gloss over Walker, Karli, and Steve’s actions.

**Look the show had the chance to salvage Steve’s character, but If they’re going to have him be OOC and just have forgotten all about her, then at least have the balls to stick by that choice and admit that he wasn’t perfect. Don’t try to justify it it by assassinating Sharon’s character.

I'll take your word for it, since I didn't watch Wanda Vision but it baffles me why so many people are so quick to compare the shows. They had different writers, different directors and a different focus, not to mention different actors.  The were not trying to tell the same story, so saying one "did it better" is really not factual because you are not comparing apples to apples. 

This show showed how the institutions of service, in the military and special agencies, have policies and procedures that require members to perform acts that affect them long term, and the support is not there.  I am sure there are a lot of Veterans that could relate to John Bucky, Isiah and Sam a lot more than they could Wanda.  Even Steve had some issues which is why he sought Sam out in the first place.  Zemo too.  It also touched a little on how it affected the families who support them while they are gone and when they come back  with Sam's sister and Bradley's grandson. 

Focusing on Sharon, who probably had the least amount of screen time to convey how she was affected does not take away from the stories of the others. 

Sharon does some dark things in the comics so I really don't think it was much of a stretch. Poorly done and not developed, yes, but not a shocking surprise.  They had only six episodes to cover a lot of ground and I am glad they spent it where the did instead of more time on Sharon, especially if she is going to appear in future projects. They can tell that story then. This was about Sam and Bucky....and I think they did a fair job with COVID having to change locations, etc.  

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11 hours ago, blackwing said:

I think my main objection against Sharon being a villain is that this is such a drastic turn from the way she was written in the comics. 

Fair enough, I am not sure I read too many comics with Sharon Carter in them. Although if we are going to talk about drastic turns those can sometimes work. I mean imagine if Bucky had been a teenager in First Avenger.

11 hours ago, blackwing said:

We have had a handful of other female villains in MCU to varying degrees of importance - Nebula in the first Guardians movie, Proxima Midnight, the gold lady in Guardians 2.  The X-Men universe and TV universe has had other memorable female villains - Mystique and Emma Frost (X-Men), Madame Gao, Elektra, Sigourney Weaver, Alfre Woodard (Netflix), Whitney Frost / Madame Masque (Agent Carter).

Yea there have been other female villains in the MCU, but looking at that list the only other ones that have really been interesting are Nebula of course and maybe Madame Gao. Sigourney Weaver was a total waste of a great actress. Hopefully they can do more with Sharon than they did with her.

Edited by Kel Varnsen
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On 5/5/2021 at 6:17 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

John Walker, who can beat a man to death while in full control of his faculties and never seem to care in the aftermath. Hell, John didn't even acknowledge he was out of control while fighting with Sam and Bucky, that he probably would have hurt either or both of them a lot worse if Sam hadn't broken his arm.

I wouldn't say that Walker was in full control of his faculties, even before he injected himself with the serum. For Walker to acknowledge his own lack of control would take more self-awareness than he has been shown to exercise anywhere in the show. There's no character arc for Walker here; there's a downward spiral, maybe ...

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On 5/5/2021 at 8:24 PM, ursula said:

His growth means getting to the point where he feels sorrow, not guilt for those deaths. Basically Bucky is refusing to acknowledge his own abuse. He's deflecting dealing with what was do to him by focusing on what he was made to do to others.

I'll be more specific, because I may have worded what I said badly. I don't think it can be ignored that what was done to Bucky is why he did things to others, and that might be where we're disagreeing. If that's even what we're doing instead of just saying the same thing in a different way. Had Bucky not been captured by Hydra, Arnim Zola never would have gotten his mitts on him to begin with, which would mean no Winter Soldier to be a murder machine with no ability to stop himself.

I would argue that Bucky has no idea of who he is, and he's had so little character focus in the movies prior to this that there's no reason not to use that as a working theory. It was only six years ago in canon that the Hydra programming was finally made not an issue, and then he got Snapped out of existence for five years and had no opportunity to explore who James Barnes is now that he's a real boy. He told Dr. Raynor that his time in Wakanda was the only peace he'd had in years, and if Thanos hadn't come along, he might have been quite happy to stay there, with or without the arm Shuri made for him. Once again, he didn't have a choice but to fight, no matter how much he didn't want to.

In the present, I don't think he's able to separate the abuse he suffered from the abuse his other self inflicted on people like Howard Stark and Yori's son. He hasn't regained enough Self for that yet, and the fact that he's alive and most of the Winter Soldier's victims are dead seems like something it would be very difficult to reconcile for him, no matter how he was treated. It's not that he shouldn't, it's that he can't, at least not at this stage. Although I'm vaguely troubled by 'shouldn't', because I'm not sure where the line is between sorrow and guilt. Can you have sorrow without remorse, and if you have remorse, don't you also have guilt?

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I don't think sorrow has to involve remorse. I can feel sorrow for a family that dies in a fire, but without remorse because nothing I did had anything to do with what happened to them. Bucky is more complex because his body at least did have something to do with it. But us he more than his body? He hasn't been allowed to be more than a body in a very long time, until very recently.

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21 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Can you have sorrow without remorse, and if you have remorse, don't you also have guilt?

Maybe the difference between remorse and guilt is one of proportion? In other words, remorse is regret for wrong action in proportion to the offence, and guilt a feeling of self-blame beyond a reasonable measure, out of proportion to the harm created? Just spitballing.

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On 5/7/2021 at 4:31 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Although I'm vaguely troubled by 'shouldn't', because I'm not sure where the line is between sorrow and guilt. Can you have sorrow without remorse, and if you have remorse, don't you also have guilt?

I think Bucky’s healing means getting to the stage where he no longer feels guilt for his own abuse. Right now, his mindset is still “I am responsible because maybe if I had done something differently Hydra won’t have tortured me and used me to kill these people”. It’s a recovery process, much like you said that Bucky hasn’t regained enough Self to separate what he was made to do, from what he was responsible for.

 

On 5/7/2021 at 9:17 PM, Ailianna said:

I don't think sorrow has to involve remorse. I can feel sorrow for a family that dies in a fire, but without remorse because nothing I did had anything to do with what happened to them. Bucky is more complex because his body at least did have something to do with it. But us he more than his body? He hasn't been allowed to be more than a body in a very long time, until very recently.

Yes, this is kind of what I’m trying to get out. I think it could also be a coping mechanism for Bucky. As long as he feels guilt, he can also think/tell himself that there’s something he could have done differently, which in turn means he can keep he had some agency throughout his ordeal. The loss of agency might be the biggest thing to come to terms with.

Edited by ursula
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On 5/1/2021 at 4:09 PM, catrice2 said:

Although I don't like the Sharon switch and agree it was not written well, I can explain away some of her actions....

She probably realized too late that controlling Super Soldiers would not be something she could do.  At first she probably thought it was a good idea, but when Karli went rogue she realized how hard it would be to make sure they stayed in line.  As you remember, they were using mind control on Bucky and even with that they could not control the unstable ones that Zemo killed.  Once Karli left and Sam and Bucky got involved she changed her master plan. She realized that if she got them back that would be ok, but it would be MUCH better  and profitable for her to be back in on US secrets.  That, and she could let Sam and Bucky find Karli for her.   

A question I do have is when Karli is at the cemetery , does she mention taking more the serum?  In that way I wondered if Nagel's formula , since it didn't use machines etc. was something that had to be topped up at some point?  If not, was Karli going to use the rest of it to bargain with?  Otherwise, I don't know why she would not have made more super soldiers to support her cause?  Nagel said there were 20 vials, and Karli and her crew took 8 , so that would have left 12. 

My guess is she killed Selby to protect her ID and/or to gain their loyalty so that she could find out how much they knew and use them to track Karli.  I suspect that it is possible that IF she really is the actual Power Broker and not just shielding that persons' identity she may have never revealed her identity to too many people...only identifying herself as the go between.  It is believable  that Nagel could not identify her. Remember, she assumed that because of who Bucky and Sam were they would never just murder Nagel, Zemo was the wildcard that did that.  And if she had decided Super Soldiers were too much to deal with Nagel was expendable because then she would not have to worry about him "going to another side" if he was captured or offered a better deal. 

I don't know, but it was obvious to me that Karli and her team had some type of training and I thought Nagel confirmed that even before Sharon spoke about it.  

As for Karli, I didn't care for the actress that portrayed her but I do realize they made some half hearted attempt to remind she was a teenager.  Like at the end, the fight with Sam was very much like a teen ager being mad that they were not getting their way, and she was very petulant and disappointed that she felt like Sam was "taking" the other side.  Even the way she said, "I'm sorry," like a little kid who knew they'd done wrong. 

So presumably, controlling super soldiers is something she still could do. She could recruit people who are loyal in the first place and are unlikely to stray. She could plant bombs in them ala Suicide Squad. She could use pressure on their families. The mind control tech used on Bucky still presumably exists and is functional., and could even be improved on.

But let's say that she realizes that her having a personal army of super soldiers isn't worth the trouble. The value of the serum also lies in having the highest bidder pay for it. 

It just doesn't make sense that the PB would invest an untold amount of money to create a serum worth trillions and then just be like, eh, I'll let Sam and Bucky find the person who is making this for me. 

Even if for argument's sake she decided consciously to switch gears and get out of the SSS business and into the U.S. government secrets business, there still is no need to tell Sam and Bucky where to find Nagel. Doing so doesn't get her any closer to being reinstated with the U.S. spy system (and she could presumably accomplish that without Sam and Bucky's help, or at least, Sam and Bucky would have been happy to help her without her showing them how to find Nagel because they are generally good guys.

The show does not give any reason why Karli did not dose another 12 people with the 12 additional SSS vials she had. Given that we kept on getting told that the Flag Smasher movement was gaining in popularity, it seems unlikely that she couldn't find 12 people who believed in her cause and were willing to volunteer. There was no indication that people needed more than the initial dose to have the full effect of the SSS. The real reason she did not was because the writers wanted to have Zemo have his triumph of getting rid of the serum and Walker to have a chance to take the serum, and they couldn't do that if Karli had used all the serum on hand. 

Killing Selby makes sense if Selby knows who PB really is and she didn't want Selby to spill the beans (although there was no indication that Selby was about to).

Trying to gain the trust of Sam and Bucky doesn't seem like it makes much sense since she already implicitly has their trust. She doesn't need to take additional steps to get something she already has.

Setting Sam and Bucky to be hunted by mercenaries and then planning to use them to find Karli doesn't make much sense because Sam and Bucky don't have any more of a clue where Karli is than she does. Also, as far as we know, the PB does nothing with the information that Karli was awaiting the funeral.. It seems improbable that Karli knows that Sharon is the PB but that Nagel had no idea. 

The sad thing is that the could have made the twist work with a few tweaks to the writing:

1. Rewrite the Selby scene so that she gives Our Heroes an actual lead to Nagel's whereabouts before she gets killed. This puts Sharon in a position where killing Selby makes more sense for her, and where she does not have a choice as to whether Our Heroes pursue a lead on Nagel. Her only choice is to try to manage them.

2. Get rid of the part about putting a $50 million bounty on Our Heroes. Assuming that the Power Broker has that much money around to potentially offer for Our Heroes, it raises a question as to why she has not found Karli and her super soldiers, and why she would want Our Heroes' help. 

3. Have Sharon pump Our Heroes for information, realize that they are going to Nagel and insert herself in the plan. You can even still have her hosting the party and the Zemo dance scene.

4. Have  a Usual Suspects like montage in this final episode showing all the stuff she was doing as the PB to undermine Our Heroes and why.

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I enjoyed the finale, although I thought it wasn't as good as 5 due to some of the revelations and big-picture inconsistencies in terms of character. I thought Sam was pretty well-served overall as a character, and his moments here were moving. I thought Bucky's arc was a bit more disappointing. It was nice to see Walker get some redemption, but I also thought the final fight scenes (while beautifully done) were interminable. Honestly, it's just me, but I'd take one "Bucky and Sam talk while fixing the boat" scene over "Bucky and Sam fight bad guys for 30 minutes" sequence. After awhile, I just get numb to the action. (Sorry, I know I'm weird.)

And I absolutely don't believe for even a hot second that Sharon Carter would go that dark. Ever. I felt bad for the character (and actress VanCamp). It just feels like a big twist for the sake of being a big twist. But no way in hell do I believe that Sharon would ever end up as anything other than a patriot. I'm not even a huge Sharon fan, but I simply do not buy that the woman we met in WINTER SOLDIER, etc., and who was so close to Peggy, would betray her country.

So seeing one of the show's few female heroes betray her country -- nope, nope, nope.

And I didn't really care for some of Sam's final speech, as written, in the parts where he veered a little too far for me over into tacit support for Karli in terms of her actual crimes. I think the speech could have shown the same empathy and strategy without going quite that far.

Quote

Yes that's my point. That Bucky's actual growth is accepting he's not to blame for those deaths. Absolution would imply he was responsible and he's forgiving himself. Which is what he's currently doing. It rings false to me. Basically the show is side stepping Bucky's own abuse/his agency being stolen and not having him deal with it. 

@ursula, well said. While I love Sebastian Stan, who killed it this season, as did Mackie, in terms of performance,  this is my other main problem with Bucky's arc this season. His story was subtly shifted. It went from "this guy was abused and used like a weapon with zero control, power, or consent over his own actions while his body did terrible things" -- to "Bucky used to have no choice but to do evil things," and that's not really the same thing. In remembering the crimes his (basically possessed) body committed, it's like he's being traumatized twice. And then his healing therapy is to confess to them? I just don't like this POV or find it useful or believable.

I thought the point of his therapy (and it was nice to see HITG Amy Aquino as his therapist) was for Bucky to face what had happened to him and work on recovery. That his list was actually NOT productive and was holding him back. Instead, it's presented as a healing thing, and again -- I don't think it was, or actually would be. I get that Bucky has to deal with guilt, but part of that is facing his absolute lack of agency over his actions, etc.

Anyway. This was a fun series -- it just ended on a little bit of a frustrating note for me. But it was great to see a NON-supered Sam put on that suit and embody the best in what Captain America stands for. 

 

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On 4/23/2021 at 7:30 AM, Bill1978 said:

Definitely a lot to process but Sharon being bad going forward into Phase 4 has left a very sour taste in my mouth.

Yeah I'm really hoping she's like a deep undercover double agent or something. 

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On 5/14/2021 at 4:31 PM, paramitch said:

And I absolutely don't believe for even a hot second that Sharon Carter would go that dark. Ever. I felt bad for the character (and actress VanCamp). It just feels like a big twist for the sake of being a big twist. But no way in hell do I believe that Sharon would ever end up as anything other than a patriot. I'm not even a huge Sharon fan, but I simply do not buy that the woman we met in WINTER SOLDIER, etc., and who was so close to Peggy, would betray her country.

So seeing one of the show's few female heroes betray her country -- nope, nope, nope.

And I didn't really care for some of Sam's final speech, as written, in the parts where he veered a little too far for me over into tacit support for Karli in terms of her actual crimes. I think the speech could have shown the same empathy and strategy without going quite that far.

All this.

I just feel like this was all done to cover the Russo’s asses for writing Sharon out. Come on, everybody forgets about her while fucking ROSS gets to show up at Tony’s funeral without saying a word or anyone giving so much as a stink-eye?! Ugh.

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Late to the party but im here, lol. I personally loved TFAWS better than Wandavision but it could have desperately use a 2nd season and that is pro. why it feels choppy and rushed in alot places because this series needed more episodes and im surprise it didnt get more but nevertheless the finale was nice and sweet, nothin to big or amazing but overall it was a great way to end the series. Episodes 3&4 will forever remain my fav of the entire series.

Highlights from the season:

-Bucky wakanda scene of his deprogramming will go down as one of my top 5 MCU scenes of alltime. Great acting Sebastion Stan and I love how he is able to have chemistry with every character he comes in contact with, thats talent there.

-Walker killing the dude from flagsmasher is another great scene and highlight followed by him defending himself to government. Chef kiss, so good.

-All Isaiahs scenes

-All Zemos scenes

-Sharon kicking ass in episode 3. Never cared for character but she showed out in that episode

-Dora Miliage taking down all the dudes in episode 4 and leaving the white nerd boys in their feelings over twitter, LOL.

-Sam coming to terms of being Captain America and training

-Bucky finally having some peace at the end

 

I wish I could have had  highlight of the Flagsmashers since they were suppose to be the main villains but i just found uninteresting and maybe if some scenes didnt get cut because of the pandemic, maybe just maybe we would have gotten better insight on them and their whole existence. I just found Karli and the whole flagsmashers uninteresting and needed more fleshing out.

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My big problem with Karli is that I don't see her as a good guy in any shape for form.  She was a terrorist who burned people alive without the slightest remorse, and Sam constantly defending her made him look idiotic.

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I thought this entire series was superb.

Acting was phenomenal, particularly from Sebastian Stan.

Adored the action scenes.

I think my favourite scene was probably Isaiah getting emotional seeing what Captain America had done for him at the museum. 

Val seems like a hoot, I look forward to seeing more of her elsewhere.

Curious to see what happens with Agent Carter. I don't think Auntie Peggy would be very proud of her at the moment.

Also, special shout-out to the woman who ended up flying the helicopter.

I just loved this.

Edited by Quark

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saoirse

Posts in this topic should be about the episode. If your post is not primarily about the episode, please rethink where to post it. Posts that are primarily about the Marvel movies (or that reply to such posts) will be removed without notice, and warnings may be issued. Thank you.

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