S01.E06: One World, One People

[swanpride]

I think the Bucky problem could have been easily solved by making episode 5 the "Bucky episode" in which he not only expresses understanding for Sam's perspective, but which also had him talking to the old man. THAT talk needed some time, plus, it just would have felt better if there had been some "feelable" time between the talk and Bucky observing the old guy through the window. (btw, regarding the "talk", it really felt fake when the old man said "what?" in reaction to Bucky saying that his son was killed. He KNEW that. He just didn't know why. The "What" belonged on another place in the conversation). 

It would also have felt like a satisfying conclusion to episode five, making it less feel like a giant prologue to the finale. If Marvel insists on weekly releases, they must treat the episode narratives like a weekly show. 

 

[MochaJay]

I don't know if I am allowed all-season thread to discuss some of this stuff that wasn't specific to the episode? - I was thinking 'Sam and Bucky have depth: Character arcs and themes'

 

One moment in finale I did enjoy was Walker giving the 'I have always found that mercy bears richer fruits...' line and Bucky attributing it to Lincoln. I am not used to that kind of call-and-response outside of Sorkin shows, and there is an interesting specificity to why these two men would know a less famous quote (I presume, I'm not American) - Walker is the type to have studied Great Men, Bucky comes from a time when memorising the words of dead politicians was probably part of standard education.

I know a lot of the reaction is that Sam and Bucky forgave Walker too easily, but with Bucky at least it makes sense for me:

His counsel to John in ep 5 and Karli in ep 6 was don't go down this road, I know where it ends. ', He will stand in the way of people he disagrees with, but he won't act as judge of others  because his Truth is that you have to be able to live with yourself.

[Zonk]

On 4/24/2021 at 2:52 PM, Danny Franks said:

But we've also seen Hawkeye and Black Widow cope just fine, despite having no superpowers, so it comes down to whether you can accept that kind of inconsistency or not.

Isn't Black Widow enhanced with a lesser form of the super soldier serum? I always thought she was. If not, I'm calling bullshit on her abilities, too.

Hawkeye usually keeps sufficiently in the background and fires arrows from afar that I'm not too bothered.

[Check Sanity]

On 4/24/2021 at 9:09 AM, TimothyQ said:

I think they stuck the landing as best they could with six episodes. The length seemed to be in a weird spot: with a 2 hour movie, they would’ve tightened up the plot a lot. With a 8 or 9 episode series, it could’ve been fleshed out more appropriately. Six ended up being in a weird no-man’s land of being too long and too short. But I think they did well with the constraints they had. 

On 4/24/2021 at 9:44 AM, Racj82 said:

I feel like it's been clear for a while that the flag smasher stuff was affected by outside sources and change in direction. It's pretty scattered. But, I did think that the emotions hit me so that was my focus. 

On 4/24/2021 at 7:02 PM, catrice2 said:

I don't know if it is true, but I heard that there were supposed to be 8 and that lots of things were changed due to filming and other restrictions because of COVID.  Considering that, I think they did a fairly good job. 

From what I'm aware of, each disney+ Marvel show was given exactly 6 hours to work with to be split up however they want. This show was affected by the pandemic in filming restrictions but also story, because supposedly it involved biowarfare. Which makes more sense with the way Karli kept forecasting to the "big move" that would change things, but then they end up stealing resources? The others didn't know about her plan to blow up that place. The forecasting and the end results were not all that cohesive. 

On 4/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, Zonk said:

Shower thought: At the end of the episode they displayed the title "Captain America and the Winter Soldier". Isn't it pretty disrespectful to still call Bucky the winter soldier after he finished his book and made amends for the things the winter soldier had done. Not to mention that he was mind controled at the time.

Shouldn't they have changed it to "Capatin America and Bucky Barnes"?

As someone else mentioned, I think part of Bucky's next journey is getting a new widely recognizable name. Throughout this series he was called a bunch of different things, Bucky, Buck, Winter Soldier, White panther, White Wolf, Sgt Barnes. He's finally come to accepting himself as he is and moving forward. I think next is figuring out who he wants to be, as in, an even better version of himself to strive to be known as. He owes Wakanda a debt, so I would guess he'll pop up there next.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Check Sanity
run on sentences and bad grammar are annoying

[Danny Franks]

5 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Isn't Black Widow enhanced with a lesser form of the super soldier serum? I always thought she was. If not, I'm calling bullshit on her abilities, too.

Hawkeye usually keeps sufficiently in the background and fires arrows from afar that I'm not too bothered.

In the comics, Natasha is enhanced due to the serum that the Soviets gave her, which includes aging very slowly - which is why, even in the 2020s, her character is an ex-Soviet assassin. Nat's about 80 years old in the comics.

I don't think the MCU version has been confirmed to have had any enhancements, although we may see flashbacks in the Black Widow movie that do confirm it.

18 hours ago, catrice2 said:

My guess is they plan to do more with Bucky with him totally becoming the White Wolf...whether that happens in the Wakanda series or another series or movies is the question.  If they wanted Sam to become Captain America I always assumed more time would be spent on that than Bucky.  He got time...the Wakanda edits and his time with Zemo, as well as the people he was trying to make amends with.    It was just a different focus.   

White Wolf is... a terrible name. It's so generic and sounds like it could have been lifted from any one of a dozen fanfics or self-published novels about 'lonely warrior' types.

Winter Soldier is honestly one of the best codenames in Marvel. It references his Cold War history, nods to the fact he was kept cryogenically frozen and conjures up the image of a lonely warrior far more evocatively while also reinforcing the idea that he's a threat you can't stop.

If it was up to me, I'd have Bucky embrace that name and redefine it, instead of abandoning it for something so schlocky.

[Zonk]

13 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

In the comics, Natasha is enhanced due to the serum that the Soviets gave her, which includes aging very slowly - which is why, even in the 2020s, her character is an ex-Soviet assassin. Nat's about 80 years old in the comics.

I don't think the MCU version has been confirmed to have had any enhancements, although we may see flashbacks in the Black Widow movie that do confirm it.

Thanks for the explaination. I feel like they at least alluded to it in age of ultron. Maybe a more explicit version of it ended up on the cutting room floor (alongside all the good parts of that movie)

14 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Winter Soldier is honestly one of the best codenames in Marvel. It references his Cold War history, nods to the fact he was kept cryogenically frozen and conjures up the image of a lonely warrior far more evocatively while also reinforcing the idea that he's a threat you can't stop.

If it was up to me, I'd have Bucky embrace that name and redefine it, instead of abandoning it for something so schlocky.

I really don't like the idea of Bucky embracing his literal slave name. Yes, it's cool, but it's also tainted beyond recovery.

Maybe they could replace one of his legs with Vibranium and call him the Fullmetal Soldier. 😁

[Gin and Tonic]

30 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

White Wolf is... a terrible name. It's so generic and sounds like it could have been lifted from any one of a dozen fanfics or self-published novels about 'lonely warrior' types.

I agree, and in fact isn't it used in Game of Thrones and Witcher?

As a non-comics reader, I have to say "White Wolf" is completely meaningless to me. Is it supposed to be something more than a Wakandan nickname? When it was used in the show and movies it never seemed like anything more than a name Bucky was given for indeterminate reasons. I've learned through google that there is a different character in the comics called White Wolf, but becoming the White Wolf doesn't have the same cachet as Sam becoming Captain America. "Captain America" is an established symbol that could be explored through Sam's journey accepting the mantle.

48 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

It references his Cold War history, nods to the fact he was kept cryogenically frozen and conjures up the image of a lonely warrior far more evocatively while also reinforcing the idea that he's a threat you can't stop.

Bucky screws up, as he did in this series by hurting Ayo and Wakanda with Zemo, but he's also the antithesis of a summer solider or sunshine patriot. Winter Solider is a perverse name given to him by Hydra, but it can also reference Bucky's loyalty and steadfastness.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Gin and Tonic said:

I agree, and in fact isn't it used in Game of Thrones and Witcher?

Jon Snow is A Winter Soldier... Bucky is THE Winter Soldier

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Gin and Tonic said:

I agree, and in fact isn't it used in Game of Thrones and Witcher?

Didn't finish Witcher so I don't know about it.

Game of Thrones follows four main families. One of them, the Starks, have as their family animal dire wolves, and so some of them get called Wolves, and one was called the Young Wolf. But I don't think any were known as "the White Wolf.." 

The show also featured as a chief villain a race of supernatural beings called White Walkers (who happen to start off closest to the Starks), so it may be a mix of those two concepts. 

[Perfect Xero]

I really liked the stuff with Sam and Isaiah and Bucky making his amends, and I'd gladly watch an entire series of Sam and Bucky helping out with the Wilson family business, but the entire action/intrigue side of the plot felt like a mess.

[benteen]

I very much enjoyed this episode and this series.  

Now I'll start off with my issues.  Trying to make Karli some kind of hero/martyr.  Karli was a terrorist and a murderer who only double-down on her evil behavior as the series went on.  Do you know the kind of people who lit other people on fire are?  Terrorist.  Sam bent over backwards for her and put up with her far longer than he should have...he should have just dropped her body when he was about 50 feet off the ground.  The villains were probably the weakest element on this show.  A show like The Falcon and the Winter Soldier needed a more compelling/formitable kind of villain.  This should just didn't have it.

Also agreed on how absolutely no US senator would have ever been moved by Sam's speech.  The preachiness in general was another weak point of this series.  

To me, Daredevil is still the best show to come out of the Marvel Universe.

I'll give them credit though for examing the fallout of The Blip.  It really is a fascinating situation that would create an absolute logistical nightmare to try to solve.  The whole situation is a mess and maybe even too big for a superhero show but it's a fascinating storyline to go with and definitely a comic book plot (I mean that in a good way).

Now that being said, I really liked the use of the rest of the characters, both old and new.  I liked Walker's storyline and how he was able to reject revenge to do the right thing (unlike Karli).  I liked the resolution of the Isaiah Bradley storyline.  Sharon basically becoming a new version of Hydra hidden in the government is intriguing.  I'm not sure if I buy Sharon breaking bad but there it is.  Sam becoming Captain America was great and so was everything Bucky.  I still don't know if telling that guy about his son was the right thing...I think even the show realized how difficult it would be to pull that off and decided to skip most of it.  Julia Louis-Dreyfus always knows how to bring the funny and I'm interested in seeing how her character plays out in the MCU.  Not much of Zemo here but Daniel Bruhl absolutely killed it in the role.  The acting was top-notch.

Hoping we'll get a Season 2, as there are a lot of good storylines and villains that this show can choose from.

[Morrigan2575]

Not sure why this popped into my head this morning but, I just realized that in episode 5 when Zemo told Bucky, don't worry I've decided not to kill you he really meant it. I thought it was just a smartass remark and, Bucky blew it off too. However, Zemo had a plan in the works and, someone that could carry it out. So he really did think about killing Bucky in his plot to remove all Super Soldiers and, decided against it. 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[swanpride]

Really big of him...

Nah, honestly, I am pretty sure that Bucky was aware that he was serious, but he has gone though too much sh... to be thankful for basic human decency. 

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Really big of him...

Nah, honestly, I am pretty sure that Bucky was aware that he was serious, but he has gone though too much sh... to be thankful for basic human decency. 

Oh, I don't think that Bucky should be grateful or that it makes Zemo a good guy. I was just surprised that Zemo wasn't talking out of his ass. It was something he considered and, decided against because Bucky was (presumably) good like Steve Rogers. 

So all those Zemo/Bucky scenes were in fact Zemo testing/determining if Bucky could be trusted or needed to be eliminated. It just adds another level to their scenes. 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[festivus]

I don't think Bucky was grateful, but I'm thinking it made more of an impression on him than his face suggested. He did say that Zemo had a code.

[oliverwendell]

On 4/25/2021 at 5:50 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Didn't finish Witcher so I don't know about it.

Game of Thrones follows four main families. One of them, the Starks, have as their family animal dire wolves, and so some of them get called Wolves, and one was called the Young Wolf. But I don't think any were known as "the White Wolf.." 

The show also featured as a chief villain a race of supernatural beings called White Walkers (who happen to start off closest to the Starks), so it may be a mix of those two concepts. 

Jon Snow is called The White Wolf at least once in the television series, when he's nominated to be King of the North by his clansmen.

14 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Not sure why this popped into my head this morning but, I just realized that in episode 5 when Zemo told Bucky, don't worry I've decided not to kill you he really meant it. I thought it was just a smartass remark and, Bucky blew it off too. However, Zemo had a plan in the works and, someone that could carry it out. So he really did think about killing Bucky in his plot to remove all Super Soldiers and, decided against it. 

I noticed that, too, and given that he was able to have Sokovian Alfred blow up Karli's super soldiers from the depths of the Raft, this is a really meaningful statement. He absolutely has the reach and power to have Bucky killed at any time, and he's chosen not to. And it's definitely because he decided Bucky wasn't a "bad" super soldier anymore. His other comment, about how he bears him "no grudge for what you felt you had to do," is also telling. It shows that he believes Bucky has a code of honor that is worthy of respect even if he disagrees with him.

(Sorry for posting back to back; I haven't figured out how to quote from two different posts in one reply.)

Edited April 26, 2021 by oliverwendell

[blackwing]

On 4/23/2021 at 3:01 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Kinda mixed about the episode. Basically, was not in love with all the action stuff or Sharon=Power Broker because that is a twist for twist's sake. It really seems hard to square her being the Power Broker with her leading people to Nagel, for starters. Don't so much love the rehabilitation of Walker. The action scenes were choppy and hard to follow. 

 

On 4/23/2021 at 11:14 AM, LJones41 said:

 

The problem is not that Emily Van Camp lacks the charisma to play the villain.  She had spent four years on "Revenge" portraying a character that was on the edge of villainy for the sake of revenge.  What I dislike is how the MCU pretty much destroyed the Sharon Carter character.  I hate the MCU for what they have done to her character.  The franchise has been screwing her over since "Captain America: Civil War".  This show was the last straw.

I agree with both of the above.  I don't understand why they made Sharon a villain.  Just seemed like they made her a villain just to do something shocking.  I get that she was pissed off after what happened to her in the movies after Civil War but I find it hard to believe that Peggy Carter's grand-niece would be a villain.  Especially after being so incredibly helpful to the investigation.  Reminded me exactly of what happened with Nina Meyers in the first season of "24"... initially incredibly helpful, gave information that nobody but her knew and which directly helped the investigation, and then by season's end, BAM, we need a shocking surprise villain, so it's her!

I'm curious about the Skrull theory, if so, that would be a bit more palatable eventually.  But as a standalone appearance in this show, with zero hint that she is anything but a villain, doesn't sit well with me.

On 4/23/2021 at 3:22 AM, vb68 said:

Zemo's butler taking care of business was more fun. And I'm interested to see where Walker and Countess Selena Meyer go from here. and whatever the "weird" is that's coming.

The kids holding on to Bucky at the end was probably my favorite part.

I think you mean Contessa Elaine Benes.  😀  I was waiting for her Little Kicks dance.

I've read that this character was supposed to have already appeared in "Black Widow".  I wonder if it will be revealed in that movie that she is a baddie.  Because if so, then it completely changes how someone will view her actions in this series.

It looks from all intents and purposes that John Walker has been given redemption and an alternate codename.  But the comic storyline would indicate that

Spoiler

Madame Hydra is using him, he will be a bad guy.  I also think his wife will become Viper.

 

Bucky completed the book and atoned to Yori.  But then the next day, a Wednesday, he didn't show up for lunch.  The waitress noticed him and gave him this look of understanding.  So I guess maybe Yori told her what happened and then Bucky just walked on?  So I guess he's not going to continue hanging out with Yori?  Isn't part of atonement that the wronged person grant forgiveness?  I will be sad if the two of them aren't friends anymore.  Who is going to watch out for Yori and prevent him from getting into arguments with neighbours over the trash bins?

Edited April 26, 2021 by blackwing

[paigow]

Who is going to watch out for Yori and prevent him from getting into arguments with neighbours over the trash bins?

Bucky will text Peter Parker a list of NY / NJ addresses to watch.

Edited April 26, 2021 by paigow

[tv echo]

The Falcon and The Winter Soldier: Episode 6 Intel Report
BY CHRISTINE DINH   April 26, 2021
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/falcon-winter-soldier-disney-plus-episode-6-intel-report-recap

Edited April 26, 2021 by tv echo

[TheCouchPotato]

Meh, I expected more, especially since Wanda Vision blew it out of the park. Who decided to cast Elaine? I can’t stop laughing every time she comes on. 

[catrice2]

I love how both Wanda Vision and this show were about Mental Health.  The PTSD suffered by many people in the military is real and it manifests itself in a lot of ways.  Both Bucky, John and Isaiah were the extremes, but so relatable.  Even Sharon, if she is not a Skrull obviously is having some issues. 

[Perfect Xero]

I don't know what to make of Walker joining up with the team here.

I guess after Tony, T'Challa, Wanda, Clint and probably others all getting away with some pretty heinous crimes and still being accepted there's really very little that you can't get away with and have it ignored by the Avengers if you help them out and have the "was going through some shit" excuse. But Walker wanting revenge on the Flag Smashers needed to be a longer arc with more conflicts with Sam and Bucky trying to get through to him for this payoff to have a chance to work.

Also rather odd that the only person in the MCU the seems to have to apologize for their crimes is Bucky for things he did while brainwashed by Hydra.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Perfect Xero

[Cthulhudrew]

On 4/25/2021 at 11:56 AM, Danny Franks said:

White Wolf is... a terrible name. It's so generic and sounds like it could have been lifted from any one of a dozen fanfics or self-published novels about 'lonely warrior' types.

"By Arioch, my hellblade shall sup on your soul for those hateful words!"

 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 4/24/2021 at 3:07 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Regardless of whether Power Broker Sharon were interested in selling the serum or keeping its use for herself, the Power Broker has a vested interest in not having other people know who Nagel is, where Nagel is, what the serum is or how to make it.  She has no conceivable incentive to lead Sam and Bucky to him If they wanted to go this route they could have changed things to make more sense --- just have Our Heroes get a lead on Nagel independent of Sharon.

Speculation: Sharon didn't know that Zemo was going to kill Nagel regardless. Even if she gave Sam and Bucky enough information to find the guy, Zemo's the one who broke protocol by shooting him. More of the serum being made was predicated on the doctor who recreated it being alive, since he was the only one who'd managed to do what Erskine did, and even then there were flaws with it.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

24 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I don't know what to make of Walker joining up with the team here.

What gets me is how cool Bucky and Sam were with him almost right after that brutal fight. Tony and Steve actively stayed away from each other for a couple of years after Civil War, and T'Challa did his own form of making amends by giving Bucky shelter in Wakanda. It was weird, like, "Last week you were trying to kill us, but now we trust you to watch our backs." What?

[Check Sanity]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

What gets me is how cool Bucky and Sam were with him almost right after that brutal fight. Tony and Steve actively stayed away from each other for a couple of years after Civil War, and T'Challa did his own form of making amends by giving Bucky shelter in Wakanda. It was weird, like, "Last week you were trying to kill us, but now we trust you to watch our backs." What?

First, they weren't former close friends who started an actual *civil war* and needed time to lick their wounds. Second, neither side killed someone the other was close to. 
Bucky and Sam both understand what frame of mind Walker was in during that fight. Their goal was solely to take the shield back. Walker was on edge, but they knew that going into the fight.

During the finale, there wasn't really a point where they needed to rely on trusting Walker to have their backs. And though it seemed like Bucky was bantering with Walker, I saw it as him being his usual snarky self when he's feeling neutral. Once Walker no longer had the shield Sam and Bucky seemed to be indifferent towards Walker. 

[moonshine71]

On 4/25/2021 at 2:57 AM, LJones41 said:

 I just realized that aside from "Black Panther", which had a questionable finale, most of the MCU productions in the past six years have either been likable, yet mediocre; or just terrible.  And most of them - including this series - have been badly overrated.  Disney/Marvel has really managed to brainwash a lot of movie and television fans, using the media.  At least it seems that way to me.

Nothing egocentric about that at all....

Or, just maybe, other people have different taste and opinions than you do. They haven't been "brainwashed".😒

[Cobalt Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

Once Walker no longer had the shield Sam and Bucky seemed to be indifferent towards Walker. 

You're not wrong, but this just underlines my point. They shouldn't have been indifferent towards him, because at that point Sam knew that Walker had juiced himself up with Nagel's 'improved' serum. His "What did you do?!" never really gets followed up on, and while I'm sure it's part of the setup for whatever happens now that John is US Agent, he's not just going to swing back towards stable now that he doesn't have the shield. If they didn't tell anyone, how long will it be before they or someone else has to deal with him again?

[paigow]

5 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

now that John is US Agent, he's not just going to swing back towards stable now that he doesn't have the shield. 

Walker is now "Captain" of Team Val... he has returned to his emotional comfort zone so stability is not an issue... until the next mission

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 4/26/2021 at 3:21 PM, blackwing said:

I agree with both of the above.  I don't understand why they made Sharon a villain.  Just seemed like they made her a villain just to do something shocking.  I get that she was pissed off after what happened to her in the movies after Civil War but I find it hard to believe that Peggy Carter's grand-niece would be a villain.  Especially after being so incredibly helpful to the investigation.  Reminded me exactly of what happened with Nina Meyers in the first season of "24"... initially incredibly helpful, gave information that nobody but her knew and which directly helped the investigation, and then by season's end, BAM, we need a shocking surprise villain, so it's her!

I can rationalize Nina being a bad guy and yet helping Jack as much as she did in a couple of ways. First, the Big Bads that season, the Drazens, had their crazy-ass ornate plot to have both Palmer and Bauer suffer and die in a nasty way. So it could be that Nina in assisting Jack could have been doing so in order to serve him up for the Drazens' ultimate revenge. Or it could be that Nina was hired by one set of bad guys without much knowledge of the other set of bad guys. Or Nina assisted Jack to keep her cover intact with CTU. Or she let her lust/personal feelings for Jack motivate her to do things that she probably shouldn't have as a mole until her professional mole obligations got in the way. I vaguely remember the showrunners did a quasi-explanation of the twist somewhere and it wasn't terrible. And after all, there was material in the show that suggested that she was the traitor early on, namely that key card. (She debunked the key card evidence by saying she and Jack were on a romantic weekend together on the date it mentioned, but apparently she either gaslit him about the weekend it was or she somehow fixed the date on the keycard to read that weekend to give her an alibi? I dunno).

Anyway, as you can see, I have vast fanwanking powers.  Fear me!

But try as I might, I can't rationalize Sharon as the Power Broker.

On 4/26/2021 at 9:08 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Speculation: Sharon didn't know that Zemo was going to kill Nagel regardless. Even if she gave Sam and Bucky enough information to find the guy, Zemo's the one who broke protocol by shooting him. More of the serum being made was predicated on the doctor who recreated it being alive, since he was the only one who'd managed to do what Erskine did, and even then there were flaws with it.

The trouble with the notion that Sharon didn't know Zemo was going to kill Nagel:

1. Of course she should have known that would be part of Zemo's agenda. Zemo revealed his whole agenda is to avoid the existence of super-soldiers and the like in Civil War. How would Sharon think he would not try something similar with Nagel? That is "Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet" levels of stupid. 

2. Even if Sharon thinks that either Zemo is a changed person or that Sam and Bucky would keep him in check and prevent him from killing Nagel, we can't escape that there are just no benefits to letting Sam and Bucky know where Nagel is. There just aren't. The best case scenario for the PB from them talking to Nagel would be Nagel not saying anything to them. .Which the PB already has basically achieved by not revealing Nagel's location.  Other bad-for-the-PB scenarios include:

• Someone gets the information about how the SSS is made and the PB loses a monopoly on it, possibly the ability to make it at all;
• Our Heroes take Nagel into protective custody or arrest him; 
• Nagel either reveals who the PB is or gives clues to her identity; 
• The killers she sends after Our Heroes themselves are killed.  

On 4/26/2021 at 9:24 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

What gets me is how cool Bucky and Sam were with him almost right after that brutal fight. Tony and Steve actively stayed away from each other for a couple of years after Civil War, and T'Challa did his own form of making amends by giving Bucky shelter in Wakanda. It was weird, like, "Last week you were trying to kill us, but now we trust you to watch our backs." What?

I don't know that Sam really interacted with Walker during that fight, and Bucky basically just trusted Walker to have enough hero in him to not let a bunch of GRC people plunge to their deaths. I don't see Sam and Bucky inviting Walker and Mrs. Walker down south for a shrimp boil any time soon.

[Spartan Girl]

13 hours ago, catrice2 said:

I love how both Wanda Vision and this show were about Mental Health.  The PTSD suffered by many people in the military is real and it manifests itself in a lot of ways.  Both Bucky, John and Isaiah were the extremes, but so relatable.  Even Sharon, if she is not a Skrull obviously is having some issues. 

WandaVision did it better.

If they wanted to go with a Dark Sharon storyline there were a million better ways to do it. Instead of having her be the Power Broker, they could have had her be part of the Flag-Smashers, and that’s how Sam and Bucky meet up with her during out of their first encounters with the group. It would up the stakes and emphasize their conflicted feelings about the group: it’s easy to Karli to win sympathy just because “she’s a kid” but to have someone they know be sucked into the group and radicalized? That would pack a more powerful punch, and feel more organic to boot.

Also it would have been better if the show allowed Sharon to express her hurt and anger when confronting Sam and Bucky instead of mean girl snark. Something like “I threw away my whole life to help you, and that was my choice, but why didn’t you back me up? You and Steve just forgot about me? Did he even care?” Oh I would have loved for that to lead to them telling her what Steve did.**

And actually build the relationship between her and Karli and maybe eventually lead to a falling out where Sharon and a few others become disturbed by Karli resorting to full-on terrorism. That was a missed opportunity too, since some of her followers were clearly becoming uneasy with her. 

But as it was, her heel turn just felt like a lazy way to gloss over Walker, Karli, and Steve’s actions.

**Look the show had the chance to salvage Steve’s character, but If they’re going to have him be OOC and just have forgotten all about her, then at least have the balls to stick by that choice and admit that he wasn’t perfect. Don’t try to justify it it by assassinating Sharon’s character.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[blackwing]

13 hours ago, TheCouchPotato said:

Meh, I expected more, especially since Wanda Vision blew it out of the park. Who decided to cast Elaine? I can’t stop laughing every time she comes on. 

I agree that it seems like an odd casting choice.  Elaine is one of the most decorated comedic actresses in Emmy history.  She is too associated with particular roles.  When she was talking to Walker at the end with this ultraserious demeanor and tone, I kept waiting for her to burst out laughing and deliver a punchline.  Just doesn't work for me, I can't take the character of the Contessa seriously because she is being played by Elaine.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The trouble with the notion that Sharon didn't know Zemo was going to kill Nagel:

1. Of course she should have known that would be part of Zemo's agenda. Zemo revealed his whole agenda is to avoid the existence of super-soldiers and the like in Civil War. How would Sharon think he would not try something similar with Nagel? That is "Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet" levels of stupid.

You're presuming someone would have told her the intricacies of Zemo's plan, and I don't see how that would have happened. At the last, Tony, Steve, and Bucky knew, but at the end Steve was on the run from the authorities, Bucky was back in cryo, and Tony was either thinking the matter was resolved or still so pissed off at Steve that telling Sharon anything wouldn't have crossed his mind, and as far as I know they'd never even met. If Sharon was telling the truth about her dropping off of everyone's radar, even provided that other people (Sam, Natasha, maybe Maria Hill) did know all of the details, no one bothered to inform her of what Zemo did and how he did it, and that's not even bringing the Why into it.

 

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

**Look the show had the chance to salvage Steve’s character, but If they’re going to have him be OOC and just have forgotten all about her, then at least have the balls to stick by that choice and admit that he wasn’t perfect. Don’t try to justify it it by assassin sting Sharon’s character.

They've always been very careful to not tarnish Steve too much. That whole thing of Tony snapping and trying to kill Bucky was IMO at least partly to brush Cap's lie about his parents under the rug. Even if it was only by omission, Mr I'm Always Honest really wasn't. Him leaving Sharon to her own devices after she stuck her neck out to help him is like him taking off on Sam and Bucky rather than hang around, just another dent in his halo that no one will ever acknowledge.

[Kel Varnsen]

17 hours ago, blackwing said:

  I don't understand why they made Sharon a villain.  Just seemed like they made her a villain just to do something shocking.  I get that she was pissed off after what happened to her in the movies after Civil War but I find it hard to believe that Peggy Carter's grand-niece would be a villain. 

I am ok with her being a villain. Prior to this show I don't think we know enough about Sharon to form an opinion about her being a good or bad person. I mean we know she is against Hydra fascists murdering millions of people, but a lot of other bad people would be against that too. As for her relationship to Peggy, I am not sure how much influence Peggy would have on her grand-niece. I mean she ran Shield from the 50s until at least the 1990's and had her own family. How much time would she have for a relatively distant relative like Sharon?

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I am ok with her being a villain. Prior to this show I don't think we know enough about Sharon to form an opinion about her being a good or bad person. I mean we know she is against Hydra fascists murdering millions of people, but a lot of other bad people would be against that too. As for her relationship to Peggy, I am not sure how much influence Peggy would have on her grand-niece. I mean she ran Shield from the 50s until at least the 1990's and had her own family. How much time would she have for a relatively distant relative like Sharon?

Obviously they spent enough time together that Sharon was chosen to give the eulogy at Peggy's funeral.  I realize that scene served other narrative purposes and for Steve and the audience to learn that they were related.  

[Spartan Girl]

44 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Obviously they spent enough time together that Sharon was chosen to give the eulogy at Peggy's funeral.  I realize that scene served other narrative purposes and for Steve and the audience to learn that they were related.  

She also said that Peggy was the one that supported her choice to join SHIELD and gave her first thigh holster.

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

You're presuming someone would have told her the intricacies of Zemo's plan, and I don't see how that would have happened. At the last, Tony, Steve, and Bucky knew, but at the end Steve was on the run from the authorities, Bucky was back in cryo, and Tony was either thinking the matter was resolved or still so pissed off at Steve that telling Sharon anything wouldn't have crossed his mind, and as far as I know they'd never even met. If Sharon was telling the truth about her dropping off of everyone's radar, even provided that other people (Sam, Natasha, maybe Maria Hill) did know all of the details, no one bothered to inform her of what Zemo did and how he did it, and that's not even bringing the Why into it.

Sharon didn't need to know the intricacies of Zemo's plan in Civil War to have grokked that he was a bad guy who can't be trusted and who had issues with the Avengers and super-soldiers in general. 

That much was apparent before the showdown in Siberia. It was known -- and it might have been explicitly known by Sharon -- that Zemo blamed the Avengers for the loss of his family in Sokovia. While you couldn't necessarily conclude from that alone that his hatred extended to all enhanced people, it would be a logical conclusion to draw for anyone as savvy as the PB is supposed to be.

I might have to go back to watch Civil War again, but at a minimum T'Challa was present in Siberia along with Cap, Bucky and Tony to know that Zemo murdered the remaining Soviet super soldiers. Presumably Tony and T'Challa had some sort of debriefing to explain what had happened. From there, Sharon had any number of ways of finding out more about what Zemo had been up to beyond just hearing it directly from someone directly involved. 

Let's assume for discussion's sake that Sharon never heard from Sam, Bucky, Steve, Fury, any of her own intelligence contacts, media reports, etc. about Zemo. Just knowing the stuff she almost had to know -- stuff that is probably in the public domain -- that he bombed the U.N. and framed Bucky, at best, Zemo is a wild card and at worst, an unpredictable threat. Why would you lead someone like that to your golden goose?

But even assuming for discussion's sake that Sharon had no reason to think that Zemo posed a particular threat, it still doesn't change that exposing Nagel to Sam, Bucky and Zemo is not a move the Power Broker would make if she's rational.

[Ailianna]

On 4/26/2021 at 4:21 PM, blackwing said:

 

  Hide contents

 

  Isn't part of atonement that the wronged person grant forgiveness?  

Atonement is a person who has done wrong attempting to make the wrong right FOR THE PERSON WHO WAS WRONGED. But that person has no obligation to forgive the wrong-doer or to grant any absolution. 

I can't get rid of the spoiler box from the original post but there's nothing in it anymore. 

[Perfect Xero]

My only thought with Sharron is that I'm not a fan of her being a villain, but I think there's at least a decent chance that things aren't what they seem with her. She's a spy, after all and there was some unseen figure she was talking with about evil plans at the end.

We also regularly saw her surrounded by art from around the world that had been stolen and replaced with forgeries, I don't think that's an insignificant piece of symbolism.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

11 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

My only thought with Sharron is that I'm not a fan of her being a villain, but I think there's at least a decent chance that things aren't what they seem with her. She's a spy, after all and there was some unseen figure she was talking with about evil plans at the end.

We never find out who that woman was that showed up with a car to collect Sharon, either. Could she possibly be in league with Contessa Val? Since they waited until almost the last minute to introduce her while at the same time having her fully entrenched with Whoever, Sharon may have run across her in her dealings.

 

[TheCouchPotato]

On 4/27/2021 at 9:35 AM, blackwing said:

I agree that it seems like an odd casting choice.  Elaine is one of the most decorated comedic actresses in Emmy history.  She is too associated with particular roles.  When she was talking to Walker at the end with this ultraserious demeanor and tone, I kept waiting for her to burst out laughing and deliver a punchline.  Just doesn't work for me, I can't take the character of the Contessa seriously because she is being played by Elaine.

Me too. Honestly, my husband and I couldn’t stop laughing during her parts. Fantastically funny person that just doesn’t work in this role. 

[catrice2]

On 4/27/2021 at 8:35 AM, blackwing said:

I agree that it seems like an odd casting choice.  Elaine is one of the most decorated comedic actresses in Emmy history.  She is too associated with particular roles.  When she was talking to Walker at the end with this ultraserious demeanor and tone, I kept waiting for her to burst out laughing and deliver a punchline.  Just doesn't work for me, I can't take the character of the Contessa seriously because she is being played by Elaine.

I would have liked to see Rose Byrne, Lucy Liu , the woman from Underworld? I wanted someone with an action background but  I also don't know if they were trying to get an older actress because of Sam Jackson's Nick Fury.  Maybe even Eva Mendes...I don't know. If I put my mind to it I am sure I can think of some people.....

[Cobalt Stargazer]

54 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

I would have liked to see Rose Byrne, Lucy Liu , the woman from Underworld? I wanted someone with an action background but  I also don't know if they were trying to get an older actress because of Sam Jackson's Nick Fury.  Maybe even Eva Mendes...I don't know. If I put my mind to it I am sure I can think of some people.....

Huh. I just checked, and Dreyfus is sixty, which is a lot closer in age to Jackson's seventy two than I thought she was. If they're planning to do that part of the Contessa's background, an older actress is probably a better bet than a much younger one, since Lucy Liu is the oldest of those suggestions at fifty two. There were enough complaints about Mark Ruffalo being too old to be paired with ScarJo, though he was only forty eight at the time. There's no need to encourage that crowd.

[arc]

13 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

We never find out who that woman was that showed up with a car to collect Sharon, either.

Given that Sharon was later revealed to be the Power Broker, on top of being fantastically wealthy in Evil Mirror Singapore (aka Madripoor), her driver was probably just her driver.

[norcalgal]

On 4/26/2021 at 1:21 PM, blackwing said:

[snip]  Reminded me exactly of what happened with Nina Meyers in the first season of "24"... initially incredibly helpful, gave information that nobody but her knew and which directly helped the investigation, and then by season's end, BAM, we need a shocking surprise villain, so it's her!

[snip]

 

On 4/27/2021 at 4:45 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I can rationalize Nina being a bad guy and yet helping Jack as much as she did in a couple of ways. First, the Big Bads that season, the Drazens, had their crazy-ass ornate plot to have both Palmer and Bauer suffer and die in a nasty way. So it could be that Nina in assisting Jack could have been doing so in order to serve him up for the Drazens' ultimate revenge. Or it could be that Nina was hired by one set of bad guys without much knowledge of the other set of bad guys. Or Nina assisted Jack to keep her cover intact with CTU. Or she let her lust/personal feelings for Jack motivate her to do things that she probably shouldn't have as a mole until her professional mole obligations got in the way. I vaguely remember the showrunners did a quasi-explanation of the twist somewhere and it wasn't terrible. And after all, there was material in the show that suggested that she was the traitor early on, namely that key card. (She debunked the key card evidence by saying she and Jack were on a romantic weekend together on the date it mentioned, but apparently she either gaslit him about the weekend it was or she somehow fixed the date on the keycard to read that weekend to give her an alibi? I dunno).

[snip]

Although I only watched 24 intermittently, count me in as a Nina fan. I just liked the character   :::::  shrug :::::   and was upset they turned her into a baddie.  

[catrice2]

 

Before I get into Sharon, let me just say that the last scene at the crawfish boil was my favorite and I think was a great way to end the series. That last picture of Sam and Bucky gazing out in peace and Bucky being so happy to come to the party was great. 

Although I don't like the Sharon switch and agree it was not written well, I can explain away some of her actions....

She probably realized too late that controlling Super Soldiers would not be something she could do.  At first she probably thought it was a good idea, but when Karli went rogue she realized how hard it would be to make sure they stayed in line.  As you remember, they were using mind control on Bucky and even with that they could not control the unstable ones that Zemo killed.  Once Karli left and Sam and Bucky got involved she changed her master plan. She realized that if she got them back that would be ok, but it would be MUCH better  and profitable for her to be back in on US secrets.  That, and she could let Sam and Bucky find Karli for her.   

A question I do have is when Karli is at the cemetery , does she mention taking more the serum?  In that way I wondered if Nagel's formula , since it didn't use machines etc. was something that had to be topped up at some point?  If not, was Karli going to use the rest of it to bargain with?  Otherwise, I don't know why she would not have made more super soldiers to support her cause?  Nagel said there were 20 vials, and Karli and her crew took 8 , so that would have left 12. 

My guess is she killed Selby to protect her ID and/or to gain their loyalty so that she could find out how much they knew and use them to track Karli.  I suspect that it is possible that IF she really is the actual Power Broker and not just shielding that persons' identity she may have never revealed her identity to too many people...only identifying herself as the go between.  It is believable  that Nagel could not identify her. Remember, she assumed that because of who Bucky and Sam were they would never just murder Nagel, Zemo was the wildcard that did that.  And if she had decided Super Soldiers were too much to deal with Nagel was expendable because then she would not have to worry about him "going to another side" if he was captured or offered a better deal. 

I don't know, but it was obvious to me that Karli and her team had some type of training and I thought Nagel confirmed that even before Sharon spoke about it.  

As for Karli, I didn't care for the actress that portrayed her but I do realize they made some half hearted attempt to remind she was a teenager.  Like at the end, the fight with Sam was very much like a teen ager being mad that they were not getting their way, and she was very petulant and disappointed that she felt like Sam was "taking" the other side.  Even the way she said, "I'm sorry," like a little kid who knew they'd done wrong. 

Edited May 2, 2021 by catrice2

[Kel Varnsen]

On 4/27/2021 at 11:13 AM, Spartan Girl said:

She also said that Peggy was the one that supported her choice to join SHIELD and gave her first thigh holster.

My aunt sends my kids gifts and would totally support their career choices, but at the same time she has only met them a couple of times and probably wouldn't really have much influence on whether or not they become criminals. We know nothing about Sharon's parents. Maybe they were Hydra too. Peggy didn't notice that Hydra took over her agency, so maybe she wouldn't notice that her family was Hydra agents either.

Plus the more that I think about it, another reason I am good with Sharon being a villain is Marvel is already pretty loaded in the non-powered female spies who can kick ass department. I would rather have an interesting female villain, because Marvel only has one of those and they needed Cate Blanchette to make it happen (two I guess if you count Annette Benning in CM).

Edited May 4, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[bethy]

I don’t care enough about Sharon to care about whether she’s a villain or not, but in terms of how close she was to Peggy, she was close enough to give the eulogy at Peggy’s funeral, and I’ve always wondered if she was actually talking to Peggy on the phone in CA:WS when she runs into Steve in the hallway of their apartment building. “My aunt - kind of an insomniac.” 

[Perfect Xero]

To be fair, who knows what impact coming to the realization that she had sucked face with her time traveling great uncle had on Sharron's mental state.

"Wait, in these old pictures Uncle Grant looks an awful lot like ... but Aunt Peggy said that ... Then he kissed ... Fuck it, I'm evil now!"

[blackwing]

On 5/4/2021 at 7:34 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

My aunt sends my kids gifts and would totally support their career choices, but at the same time she has only met them a couple of times and probably wouldn't really have much influence on whether or not they become criminals. We know nothing about Sharon's parents. Maybe they were Hydra too. Peggy didn't notice that Hydra took over her agency, so maybe she wouldn't notice that her family was Hydra agents either.

Plus the more that I think about it, another reason I am good with Sharon being a villain is Marvel is already pretty loaded in the non-powered female spies who can kick ass department. I would rather have an interesting female villain, because Marvel only has one of those and they needed Cate Blanchette to make it happen (two I guess if you count Annette Benning in CM).

I hear you... I think my main objection against Sharon being a villain is that this is such a drastic turn from the way she was written in the comics.  I would rather the actress have portrayed Rachel Leighton / Diamondback if they wanted a potential love interest for Steve who is gray.  Instead of Sharon Carter.

I agree that maybe Sharon didn't really know Peggy well, but as mentioned upthread, she was chosen to give Peggy's eulogy, so there must have been some connection (even if the real reason for the choice from a producer standpoint was to provide shock value).

I think the same desire to create a shocking twist led to the reveal that Sharon is the villain.  But I agree with you that the MCU could use more female villains.  In addition to Cate Blanchett and Annette Bening, looks like we now will get Elaine Benes as one of the bads in Phase 4.  We have had a handful of other female villains in MCU to varying degrees of importance - Nebula in the first Guardians movie, Proxima Midnight, the gold lady in Guardians 2.  The X-Men universe and TV universe has had other memorable female villains - Mystique and Emma Frost (X-Men), Madame Gao, Elektra, Sigourney Weaver, Alfre Woodard (Netflix), Whitney Frost / Madame Masque (Agent Carter).