S01.E06: One World, One People

[Morrigan2575]

I don't think they stuck the landing, I was disappointed.

Things I liked.

Surprisingly Walker is at the top of the list. I also loved JLD as Val and would like more of those 3 (Mrs. Walker too).

Zemo and hia Butler teaming up to kill the Super Soldiers LOL.  I actually expected Zemo to kill them when they got to the Raft so the explosion caught me off guard.

The scenes with Isaiah and Sam, were quite well done. It wasn't enough, nothing will ever be enough but, it was a start

I liked the Helicopter flight/fight scene that was pretty cool.

Things I didn't

Carter being the Power Broker. It didn't make a lot of sense given all that happened in Madripoore but, I guess it made sense in that they didn't have to introduce a new character.

I found the fight scenes lacking and didn't buy the whole Captain Falcon suit holding up a van believable but, it is a comic book movie...so Vibranium did it.

I didn't like Sam's speech, it was just too cheesy. I get what they were going for but, felt they could have done a better job.

 

[Gin and Tonic]

16 minutes ago, paigow said:

Pretty sure he learned it well before, so he could locate that guy who was running the Siberian base...

He still needed to practice his Russian in his hotel room during Civil War after killing that guy, so perhaps “continued to learn” would be more accurate than “took up.” 

Regardless, reading Pushkin while in prison somehow feels very in keeping with these writers’ interpretation of his character. “We’re free birds in truth; it is time, brother, time!”

[paigow]

10 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Maybe not his rank, but his identity. That someone is identifying him first as himself (or at least the person he was before HYDRA got their hands on him) and not the Winter Soldier. This was the first time since Steve found him again that someone saw him as a person to be respected and not an international assassin (reformed or otherwise).

During his rehab in Wakanda, Shuri called him Sergeant Barnes and he told her to use Bucky instead. Likely because Zola was always formal during those initial brainwashing sessions.

[bethy]

I loved seeing Sam's nephews playing with Bucky and the kids hanging off his metal arm while he chatted with some adults. Very cute.

I was not a fan of the half-hood or whatever it is of Sam's Cap outfit. Why not give him an actual helmet to protect his head, especially since he's not enhanced? It looks odd to me, even if its - I'm assuming? - tied to his comics costume? 

[Samwise979]

I could kiss sebastian stan aaaallllllll day long 😍 damned he's so hot!!!

[kay1864]

 I could watch Carl Lumbly all day long.

[Starry-Eyed]

10 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Except how was she supposed to have known that? Genuine question, because you certainly would not know by seeing Bucky on the street that he's as old as he is. In the first episode when he was on his date with Leah, she asked him how old he was, and he said, "A hundred and six." Then kind of chuckled nervously and blew it off, because they didn't really talk about it since he took off not long after that. Hell, he's just recently stopped wearing the glove that covers his metal hand, so all that history Karli was just automatically supposed to be aware of is something he's barely put behind him. He's not Steve, someone people immediately know about. He's more Isaiah, a man burdened by his past and just starting to see that there is light at the end of the tunnel, and this time it's not a train.

But Leah didn't know who Bucky was. Karli has always demonstrated awareness of his identity, seemingly both as "Bucky Barnes, friend of Captain America and Avengers ally" and the Winter Soldier. If by this point, she hasn't done enough research on one of her primary adversaries (a Google search would suffice) to know that he fought with Cap in WWII, then she is insanely incompetent.

[Samwise979]

1 minute ago, kay1864 said:

 I could watch Carl Lumbly all day long.

Alias!

[Kel Varnsen]

I liked this finale a lot, especially how it set up a probable season 2. Because I am all for more high budget Marcel shows. I am also good with Sharon being evil. Mostly because I am fine with the Carter name being tarnished after 10+ years of being told how awesome Peggy was every time her name comes up. Since if she was so great you would think she would have noticed that her agency was taken over by Hydra. 

Sam's speech was good. Reminded me of how Steve Rogers always could bust out these perfectly written motivational speeches out of no where.

10 hours ago, Zonk said:

The MCU used to be pretty good at having non-powered humans, who have only gadgets, play to their strengths.

They were never really good at that. In Iron Man 2, Whiplash has electric whips, and not even a shirt but still manages to not be crushed when pinned to a wall by a luxury car. That said the scene with Sam and the SWAT van would have been better if the shot made it clear that his wings combined with his jet were doing the lifting.

[Cthulhudrew]

I feel like Sharon must be a skrull. Her personality shift seems too extreme.

In any event, this was great. I thought they couldn't possibly wrap things up with only one episode left, and then was surprised when there was still about 20 minutes to go when they had.

Not ashamed to admit had some tears with Sam's big speech, mostly because of the cuts to Bucky's smiling face realizing that he and Steve were right and that Sam really was the best choice to take up the mantle. Even Walker's silent begrudged acceptance when Sam talked about how big a burden the shield was was great.

1 hour ago, bethy said:

I was not a fan of the half-hood or whatever it is of Sam's Cap outfit. Why not give him an actual helmet to protect his head, especially since he's not enhanced? It looks odd to me, even if its - I'm assuming? - tied to his comics costume? 

I'd have actually just preferred the straight goggles (no cowl) look of his Falcon costume. I also thought the shoulders had too much padding. Looked like he stepped out of the 80s. Otherwise, I liked the costume.

[paigow]

14 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I feel like Sharon must be a skrull. Her personality shift seems too extreme.

What did Carol Danvers say about Skrull memory? They only retain recent facts and not odd personal details like diagonally cut toast? 

[Cerulean]

I’m assuming Sam’s suit is lined with vibranium, which is why him jetting the van back didn’t crush him. And I actually expected Karli to shoot him and charge his suit up. Since we didn’t get to see that, it’s still in the Schroedinger zone. 

What is egregious is that his head isn’t protected. If he’s wearing flying armor with cool attached shades, why not give the poor man some head protection?!?

And I wish the end credits said something like “Captain America and Bucky”. Is it still fair to call him the Winter Soldier? He’s got a new Wakandan arm, works for the good guys (Or with the good guy Sam, anyway), and has completed his amends. I did notice that the people at the site recognized him. 

Also, disappointed that we didn’t see fancy shield shenanigans with Sam and Bucky. Sams new toys seemed extra cool though, so that was fun. 

[Brn2bwild]

I wanted to love this show, and ended up simply liking it.  Then again, since I was never a fan of Sam and Bucky before this show, that's better than I expected.

It had a lot of big, important ideas, some of which were delivered gracefully (Isaiah's story) and some of which weren't (Flag Smashers).  The Flag Smashers and the threat of their displacement always felt vague -- we were always told, never shown.  How much better would it have been if we had seen them being expelled from where they lived?  And as many have mentioned, the whole concept would have worked better if it had been set in the U.S.

John Walker compelled me the most, but his story arc for this season ended on a flat note.  A big show-down with Sam's Captain America would have been cliche, but that was what the last two episodes were leading up to.  Instead Walker ends up being kinda okay and suffers no real consequences for his actions.

Even Isaiah's storyline ending was a bit unsatisfying -- too "Disney."  He told Sam that he didn't want anyone to know who he was or if he was still alive; Sam should have asked his permission before overseeing an entire exhibit dedicated to him.  His heart was in the right place, but that doesn't mean the actions that follow are always appropriate.

[Afwife1992]

I was disappointed in this episode--and the disappointments been building with each prior one after it started so strongly IMO.

Likes:

Sam's uniform--very faithful to the comic book without looking *too* gimmicky. Not always easy (see Wanda's Scarlet Witch also). Except, for all Steve got teased (or should've) about being a big red, white and blue target, Sam practically glows in the dark! It's like 'shoot over here.' lol But it looks cool with the wings and all.

Sam's wings: look very cool. Like how he's integrating him into the action. Especially to counterbalance the fact that he's not a seasoned fighter like Bucky or Walker or Steve (but no one can be Steve). Really loved him using the wings to prop him up when he was being pushed back. 

Sam's nephews hanging off Bucky's vibranium arm at the end. Very cute. 

Isaiah Bradley getting his spot in the museum. *cries* Also liked how he didn't all of a sudden becoming all mushy at the sight of Sam being Captain America. Decades of trauma doesn't go *poof*. He's like 'uh huh, we'll see' and Sam's like 'we will'. But Isaiah's not all misty eyed and patriotic again all of a sudden. 

Walker becoming US Agent. We're setting the pieces in motion for Dark Avengers and/or Thunderbolts. (Again, RIP Batroc)

Zemo and his little smirk when he heard about the van explosion with the other flag smashers. (I knew there was no way they were getting to the Raft and sure enough. Boom.) He's such an ass and I love it. 

Things I didn't like:

Overdoing the Sam imagery. Bathed in silvery light pushing up the truck. (And I'm sorry, his arms would've snapped) And descending like freaking Jesus or an archangel cradling Karli's body. Kind of eye rolling. 

Sam being more of a seemingly skilled fighter, with and without the shield, than we've previously seen. I mean how long was he supposed to be down in Louisiana slinging it around? (And don't get me started again on how Walker shouldn't have been able to be any more than decent with it either. He barely had time to touch it before they sent him out. The shield is awesome but it isn't magical. Steve had unique skills, including memory, and the serum enhanced them all. That's why he was such a good fighter, tactician, etc. He already had some of those abilities and the serum amped them up.) Steve was an unparalleled hand to hand fighter who probably trained at SHIELD daily. No way would Sam come close to being able to handle Batroc. I'm glad that Sam at least seemed to say eff it and just smashed through the window and took off. Let Sam use his own skills and unique abilities--like the wings. He had some really cool scenes with them--the one mentioned above but also bringing them around like, no pun intended, a shield. They're unique and mark him as an entirely new kind of Captain America in terms of fighting. He's not just emulating Steve Rogers like they pretty much John Walker do. I don't want to see Sam doing all kinds of fancy hand to hand moves all of a sudden or parkouring it all over the place. Plus it looks like Wakanda added some another snazzy features like the thrusters that helped him push up the truck. Let's seem him break all those toys out.

The speechifying. First of all, it was *four* minutes. That's like a 10th of the whole episode. Just way too long. Second, I'm sorry, I get it but Sam *doesn't* know much about the situation. He was focused on other stuff until Karli started kicking up a fuss and I doubt he's been doing heavy research into all the issues. If I'm someone who's been actually busting their butt for *years* trying to work things out in a situation that was already bad and traumatic then became even MORE chaotic and all, I don't want to be lectured by a guy who has no background in any of the pertinent issues. I'm not going to march up to the UN or something and start lecturing them on issues that are way above my pay grade. The overall point of listening to other people like Karli and figuring why so many people followed her? Yes. Got it. Absolutely a valid point. Sam did seem that up close. But we don't need four minutes. Steve's Winter Soldier speech and Endgame speech were less 1 and 2 minutes. Sometimes shorter is more impactful. Sam just strikes me as more of a counselor than a speech-giver. I mean, it's not a requirement with the suit. Again, it's utilizing Sam's own powers and abilities. There's a reason he chose to be a VA counselor. He came close to talking Karli down off the ledge--without throwing a punch--before Captain America (Walker in that case) messed it up. If he was going to talk to these GRC people I would think he would at least go about it more along the lines of how he talked to Karli earlier--one that more personal, empathetic level rather than trying to just lecture them. This was like some 'very special episode' stuff. Mackie's a really good dramatic actor but this fell flat to me. I almost fast forwarded through it. 

And this leads to...maybe some of those four minutes could've been spent on Bucky's meeting with Mr. Yori. They spent time on his friendship with him, spent time showing his son's death and all we get in the end is like a 20 second scene? And we don't see ANYTHING after he says he was murdered by the Winter Soldier and that was Bucky? Cut to him leaving. Come on. I think Bucky spent more time flirting with Sam's sister Sarah in the previous episode than Mr. Yori in this one. Talk about one more thing with a build up and no payoff. And he sends the notebook off to Raynor? What, are they done therapy because the government may have something to say about that? Or was that totally dropped? It was kind of hard to tell since the rules seemed to have been chucked out the window. I mean, he wasn't supposed to hurt people, for instance. 

Bucky got so little time I can't even find something to bitch at. I wish he could've saved that second truck because I think actually saving people, when he's taken so many lives, could've been really impactful. And, maybe it's on purpose, but did any of the news people even know he did *anything*? Or is he going to again be relegated to 'sidekick' status as Walker derisively referred to him? I'd seen someone say that maybe Sam would be the new Captain America and Bucky the new Steve Rogers. Seems to me Bucky is just the same Bucky Barnes--there to help Captain America. He's not the Winter Soldier, he's not seemingly the White Wolf. He's just there. He even called in his Wakanda favor to use for Sam in giving him his nifty new suit. 

I didn't like Walker being called 'Cap' and I don't like it with Sam either. That's just my own thing. Steve Rogers is my favorite MCU character BY FAR and he's just the only Cap to me. Not Captain America, but Cap. 

Overalls:

Overall, Bucky just getting really short-changed. It was supposed to be Falcon AND the Winter Soldier. We've been invested in Bucky's story since 2011. Now that this show has happened, anything we would've gotten about a final talk with Steve, more moving toward redemption, coming to terms with his past. It's all done. And we got very little. 

Overall, too much trying to be done in 6 episodes. It needed more like WandaVision since it was telling more of a world building story. And instead of being 3 movies worth, it was really 2 given that each episode wasn't near 60 minutes. And I still feel like more was done in any 2 movies of any of the trilogies. 

We had Karli and the Flag Smashers--ended abruptly and no real impact. I guess her death is supposed to make people care? Especially because the new Captain America said so? 

They introduced Isaiah Bradley (and, basically his grandson Eli who becomes a superhero himself, Patriot, in a few years but without close caption many people may not even know his name) and we heard his story. And I was invested but I also knew the comic and LOVE Carl Lumley (hello Cagney & Lacey because I'm that old lol) and he could sell anything. But it felt either not enough or too much because it was a few minutes in one episode, a little longer in another and then the conclusion. Sam's sister got more story and facetime. I would've rather they cut out that whole part and given it to Isaiah and Sam. Plus family stuff often bores me and we can get it other ways--show don't tell. We knew plenty about Steve's parents' influence just from the little bit--his mom was an immigrant single mother nurse during the Depression who worked in a TB word, 'got hit and couldn't shake it' and that Steve's dad died in WW1 from mustard gas and helped spur him to want to serve his country--especially in the 107th, his dad's unit, and the one Bucky winds up in. I mean, we saw more cumulative moments of Sam and his sister than I think we saw Steve and Bucky over 3 movies. And if we don't ever see her again, what really was the point? And shown more of Eli then because they're not putting the various Young Avengers in motion and not doing something with them down the line. I would've loved flashbacks to Isaiah's past--they could've utilized the actor playing Eli as the younger Isaiah if he's going to be in further episodes rather than his lines basically reduced to him having bad manners at the door. 

Same thing with Torres. He takes on the role of Falcon in the comics. Is he a walking, talking Easter Egg here? Like wink-wink? Because we saw him like twice and basically nothing after his intro. He's a likable character (likable enough I was sure he was going to buy it when he first had his run in with the Flag Smashers) with a comic book legacy and the actor is an appealing one. 

Too many 'bad guys' or pseudo bad guys. We have Julia Louis Dreyfus's character (though she was supposed to get her intro in Black Widow), we have Zemo, we have the Flag Smashers, we have Sharon (maybe?), Batroc, we have John Walker. Too many moving pieces.

I mean, what the heck is the deal with Sharon? Is she really bad? Deep undercover? I still don't believe she could have been snapped (and Endgame showed she was) and then in six months built this whole nefarious empire. I don't know if she could've done it even if she hadn't been snapped given she went on the run with basically the clothes on her back. What was the point of breaking Batroc out to maybe kill Sam? And now we don't have Batroc anymore. RIP. Thanks, Sharon. She took him out, took Karli out and now no one knows her evil ways. Okay. 

Zemo probably had the best arc of the baddies so I can't complain too much there. 

We still don't have much of a handle on Walker though Wyatt Russell has done a really good job. And has had a good sense of humor about it given the toxicity that many unleased at him. And, again with the 'too much going on', Lemar's death had little impact on the audience because we barely knew him.  We knew Sarah more. Heck, we knew Sam's nephews more. Again, more episodes or a tighter focus would've been good here. Because we know his death drove Walker over the edge but we don't really *feel* it. And even with Walker, his descent into crazy town basically occurred in the blink of an eye. And, conversely to Sarah, Walker has a family but we don't know anything about it really. Does she care that he's off being Captain America? She seems happy enough that he's US Agent. If you're not going to develop her at all why bring her on? Keep him unmarried and then Lemar's death his him even worse--plus now he has no one keeping him tethered or on the right path. Makes him more likely to latch on to someone like JLD.

And seeing the big crowds at the end taking photos with Sam just reminded me of why I thought in the first episode--why doesn't Sam earn some quick money on whatever the superhero version of comic con is? I mean, don't tell me people wouldn't have paid money to have him fly him around or something. Cheesy? Yes. But desperate times and all. And then that just reminds me of how stupid the whole money situation was. NO WAY they weren't paid by Tony. People don't work for free--even superheroes. They were paid by SHIELD prior and then it seems that Tony underwrote the Avengers. He set up the compound, brought in people and, as he said, 'paid for everything'. It would've made more sense to say Sam's accounts were frozen when he was on the run. That Sam's sister had tried to get access when he was snapped as his next of kin but the government had enough to deal with after the snap that she was just given the run around and bureaucracy, red tape, yada yada. And then how was Sam supposed to get access again now that he's back? Take that background story to the bank and then let it unfurl the way it did--'just extend us this loan, I'm just waiting to hear back. I'm good for it, you know me./ I'm sorry, Mr. Wilson but we can't take that risk. Not even for the Falcon. But can I have your photo?'. But don't act like Sam had no money. 

This episode really brought down the season as a whole for me. I'd give it a C for the episode and a B or B plus for the season. I think with a tighter focus or an expanded number of episodes it could've been top notch because the chemistry was there, the pieces were there, the acting was great, the casting was great--there was just tons of potential. Yet it seemed to be so scattered sometimes and things that should've been more impactful weren't or things that should've been able to be said/shown easily were just pounded down on our heads while other things that needed more fleshing out were just left. But I'd watch a season 2 or a CA 4. I just would be less excited than I was for this season--which was off the charts excited. 

[Afwife1992]

21 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

I almost fell out of my chair when I heard John call Julia Louis-Dreyfus' character

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Val.

Do you know how many X-Men nerds are going to freak out about that name drop?

Also, how handsome was Anthony Mackie in his Captain America outfit.  And Wyatt Russell in his US Agent costume.  Seriously, the costuming department needs awards for the work they've done.

And the bit at the end with Isaiah at the Captain America exhibit warmed my heart.  And that same heart broke when Bucky told that old man what he did do his son.

  Reveal spoiler

And I like this Sharon Carter as a bad guy because it doesn't involve brainwashing or being subliminally controlled to shoot a handcuffed Steve Rogers multiple times in the stomach.  I have not forgotten the comic Civil War storyline and I will never forgive.

Is it wrong that I was more broken up about Batroc's death than little orphan Karli's?

 

My comic book nerd self freaked out the second she gave her full name the previous episode. I almost missed all of what she said because I was like 'oh no they didn't just introduce her.' 

And, yes, the wardrobe for US Agent--it pretty much confirmed for me that his Captain America outfit was a little 'off' in sizing or what have you on purpose. It was just one more way it felt like he *shouldn't* be Cap. This fit so much better. 

Yes to Isaiah's spot at the Smithsonian. It's like it can't make up for everything, not even close, but here, at last, is some recognition. 

[Check Sanity]

14 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Help me understand the logic of why Power Broker Sharon would lead Bucky/Sam/Zemo to one of her most valuable assets in Nagel instead of just blowing them off, leading them on a wild goose chase, feeding them to the bounty hunters, etc.

Also, the implication was that the Power Broker was the one who put the bounty on Sam, Bucky and Zemo. If so, help me understand the logic behind that.

Help me understand the logic behind Power Broker Sharon not dispatching her own men to take out Karli and the supersoldiers when she had reason to suspect that they were in Latvia thanks to Sam and Bucky. 

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

As to Sharon, it's still problematic and nonsensical for her to be the PB no matter how you slice it.

I don't know why wanting a pardon and reinstatement could conceivably be worth it to her. As the Power Broker, she apparently has a vast fortune and resources. The downsides of her situation are she supposedly can't go home and her parents don't know where she is. Even assuming that is true and she wasn't playing Sam and Bucky, such things are small prices to pay to have enough money that you can drop $58m as a possible reward to get Bucky, Sam and Zemo.

But let's say that she does have a burning desire to get a pardon and reinstatement to SHIELD. She should be able to get these things without giving up Nagel. In fact, if she is actually the Power Broker with all the connections the name implies, she is absolutely sucktastic at the job if she can't get a pardon that when Staring Murder Machine did. And even if she felt like she needed to engineer something to make it a sure thing, she could do something smarter than risking a person who is the mind behind a trillion dollar formula. 

There are better ways to keep up appearances than to kill a person who might represent a lead to Nagel, then to lead Our Heroes to Nagel, then to either have assassins truly try to kill Our Heroes and possibly her just hoping that none of them get lucky or to orchestrate an elaborate fake ambush that plays out even while Our Heroes aren't there to witness it.

As the Power Broker she would know the talents of the bounty hunters in Madripoor and whether she and the guys could take them on or not. Regarding Nagel, it doesn't seem she was interested in selling the serum as much as using it. She was trying to get Karli and the rest to come back and work for her again. We know Karli and the Asian Aussie at least both worked in the city around the same time (from their talk pre GRC bombing). The more people sniffing around to find out about Nagel and the serum likely tipped him into being a liability. 
Just like Zemo, she may be "crazy" or "bad" now, but she likely has a code of some sort (if this version of her isn't a Skrull). 

The Power Broker did dispatch her own men to take out the Super soldiers and they only managed to get one (who faced them on purpose), the rest escaped. She could have figured by then this was a job best handled on her own with Sam and Bucky. 

Putting the bounty on Zemo et al both allowed her to shift blame of taking out a power player in Madripoor and forced them to need her which would also feed her info on their whereabouts and activities. She's a long game player.

Not saying everything was spelled out well in the show though.

All the money in the world is arguably not equal to the freedom of freely going wherever whenever to some people. Never mind for Sharon it's her home country which also happens to be one of the most powerful in the world and could lead to access to more power (not the same thing as money). If Karli's exposition of Sharon's motivations are right, Sharon wants to control the world that wronged her. That's not the same as only becoming super rich.

 

13 hours ago, Zonk said:

The MCU used to be pretty good at having non-powered humans, who have only gadgets, play to their strengths.

It's also pretty blatant since battlestar (dumb name) died by being thrown slightly hard against a pillar. You can't just have a normal human withstand the weight of an armoured truck two episodes after that.

It's not an exoskeleton though. It's mostly just fabric. You could say it's bullet proof or something (though it didn't seem like it) but it can't, by its flexieble nature, protect you from being crushed.

I'm not sure why so many people seem to have a problem with Wakanda tech (*headed by Shuri*) being able to do the same thing as the Iron Man suit? Tony also didn't have super powers, the only difference is he built his suits and Sam's was gifted. Sam had his upgraded power jet and little Redwing babies helping lift the vehicle. Only one other person has mentioned the possibility/likelihood of the suit being able to convert hits to power similar to the Black Panther suit. Sam's suit expectedly is bulkier because he doesn't have super powers and because of the wings+gadgets.

I'm more curious when Sam had the time to read the manual for all the new add-ons, his suit doesn't seem to have an A.I. Jarvis or Karen like the Iron and Spider suits.

13 hours ago, Minneapple said:

This is going to be unpopular, but I was not a fan of Sam's speech. I think it was because the speech was mostly cheesy platitudes, let's end racism, blah blah. For a show that actually handled race very well, and mostly subtly, it fell flat. For me, the kids playing with the shield and smiling up at Sam are much much more powerful than a speech. When Isaiah said "they" will never "let" a black man be Captain America and Sam was all, fuck "them," "I'M" going to be Captain America based on my "CHOICE," that to me says more than any speech ever could.

The speech was the concluding paragraph to the show's 6 episode long essay. There was nothing about ending racism in the speech, it was pointing it out and that he was fighting for better regardless of that. The same people who understood the nuances you pointed out aren't the same people who may need to hear the speech.

11 hours ago, swanpride said:

Which it what I meant when I say that the show chickened out. Narratively it "redeemed" the US (through Sam just being accepted by the people in charge and by Walker being supposedly redeemed), and that just felt wrong. Especially when you contrast this with Bucky's story, which clearly states that redemption is not found in doing something for himself but for other. Seems like there are different rules at play when it comes the US. 

Did it redeem the US? Or did the show focus on the people who would appreciate Sam, a Black man, as Captain America when showing the reaction shots? The imagery from the scene of him using his wings to shield and protect that police officer from the falling helicopter and then the scene of him with his wings out landing with a dead misguided teenager in his arms... those were screaming something else to me.

With regards to the gov accepting Sam as Captain America, they didn't really have a choice (remember the shield isn't theirs) and the country and likely the world just witnessed video of his heroics. That in contrast to the last time the shield was seen? PR nightmare to oppose it.

Walker wasn't entirely redeemed either, he just managed to shake off his PTSD and make the right in battle decision this time. He hasn't fully learned and his wife is ignoring a bunch of redflags regarding his mental health. 


The main thing I cringed at on first watch as cheesy was the  "Black Falcon..." "Nah, that's Captain America" lines. And Batroc's very Quebecois French... as usual. Also, Sam's "au revoir" made me smirk. My French is far from perfect, but I have ears and it amused me.

Overall, I liked it well enough the first time but enjoyed the episode more on rewatch. The pacing felt off, which I felt last episode too. I think they could have used an extra hour. Though I know all the MCU tv series were given 6 hours each, I hope they reconsider for potential follow up seasons.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Check Sanity
typos

[swanpride]

The Ironman suit is an exoscelett, meanign the suit itself has the power. But the Falcon suit is usually just a pair of wings attached to the back. It shouldn't make Sam's body stronger. I am sure Shuri can create an Ironman suit even more powerful than Tony's best suit (especially with all the vibranium she has access to), but that's simply not what the Falcon suit is. I mean, I can imagine her adding the same stuff the Black Panther suit has, meaning that Sam's suit is most likely bullet proof, but being bullet proof doesn't allow you to lift a giant truck. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

58 minutes ago, Check Sanity said:

As the Power Broker she would know the talents of the bounty hunters in Madripoor and whether she and the guys could take them on or not. Regarding Nagel, it doesn't seem she was interested in selling the serum as much as using it. She was trying to get Karli and the rest to come back and work for her again. We know Karli and the Asian Aussie at least both worked in the city around the same time (from their talk pre GRC bombing). The more people sniffing around to find out about Nagel and the serum likely tipped him into being a liability. 
Just like Zemo, she may be "crazy" or "bad" now, but she likely has a code of some sort (if this version of her isn't a Skrull). 

The Power Broker did dispatch her own men to take out the Super soldiers and they only managed to get one (who faced them on purpose), the rest escaped. She could have figured by then this was a job best handled on her own with Sam and Bucky. 

Putting the bounty on Zemo et al both allowed her to shift blame of taking out a power player in Madripoor and forced them to need her which would also feed her info on their whereabouts and activities. She's a long game player.

Not saying everything was spelled out well in the show though.

All the money in the world is arguably not equal to the freedom of freely going wherever whenever to some people. Never mind for Sharon it's her home country which also happens to be one of the most powerful in the world and could lead to access to more power (not the same thing as money). If Karli's exposition of Sharon's motivations are right, Sharon wants to control the world that wronged her. That's not the same as only becoming super rich.

The notion that Sharon would deliberately put Sam and Bucky and herself at risks because she thinks the Madripoor assassin community just isn't quite good enough to get them doesn't make much sense. Putting up $58 million as a reward could attract new players or could mean that there are so many players that one of them gets a lucky shot off.

If Sharon is a human, I don't see how she would be blind to the serum being a trillion dollar thing and how she would do anything to risk its continued existence.(I could buy that Skrull Sharon wouldn't necessarily care about money or the chance to have enhanced people around her.

Regardless of whether Power Broker Sharon were interested in selling the serum or keeping its use for herself, the Power Broker has a vested interest in not having other people know who Nagel is, where Nagel is, what the serum is or how to make it.  She has no conceivable incentive to lead Sam and Bucky to him If they wanted to go this route they could have changed things to make more sense --- just have Our Heroes get a lead on Nagel independent of Sharon. 

The notion that Sharon wants the Super Soldiers to come work for her is a big retcon. If the Power Broker did, seems like killing off the one dude and sending threatening texts is not the way to go about it. 

Also, with the serum secure, Power Broker Sharon could give it to any 20 or 200 people and would have no need for Karli and her band of people. We come back again to: why risk people knowing about the serum?

Even if we are to conclude that Power Broker Sharon deemed Nagel a liability -- which is something there's no support for, since as far as we know Nagel is the only one who knows how to make his version of the serum -- it still doesn't make sense that she would not just take Nagel out herself and would tip Sam and Bucky to his location. She easily could have just sent men to kill Nagel, take his notes and equipment at any time. 

What I meant was after the one attempt to track Karli and the Supersoldiers down, we do not see any further efforts by the Power Broker's men to hunt them down. If the Power Broker were someone else, there's the ready explanation for this that the Power Broker isn't able to catch any leads as to where Karli and her crew are.  However, Sharon knows that Karli is in Latvia and literally has a satellite tasked to the area. It makes little sense if she was the Power Broker that she made no use of this knowledge to attempt to use her men to capture or kill the Flagsmashers. 

A long game player would probably not have pissed away ta trillion dollar asset like the SSS for the benefit of getting people who already implicitly trust her to trust her maybe a little more. 

Sharon does not really need Sam or Bucky to get herself a pardon. She could presumably have gotten one if she really wanted one at any time, particularly if she has a few million lying around. 

[arc]

3 hours ago, Afwife1992 said:

Sam's wings: look very cool. Like how he's integrating him into the action. Especially to counterbalance the fact that he's not a seasoned fighter like Bucky or Walker or Steve

Someone, I forget where, pointed out that the real world analogue to his pre-superhero military experience would be Air Force Pararescue, an elite special forces unit. Sam is probably very close to Walker in combat skills.

3 hours ago, Afwife1992 said:

And descending like freaking Jesus or an archangel cradling Karli's body. Kind of eye rolling. 

I actually really liked the Pietà imagery. I don’t even exactly know why, because Karli sure ain’t Jesus.

on Twitter, Arthur Chu points out that Walker’s other than honorable discharge specifically precluded him from working for the federal government again. And the Contessa never outright said she was recruiting him for the government. She lied by omission and Walker is too broken to have appropriate skepticism.

[cambridgeguy]

56 minutes ago, arc said:

Someone, I forget where, pointed out that the real world analogue to his pre-superhero military experience would be Air Force Pararescue, an elite special forces unit. Sam is probably very close to Walker in combat skills.

He probably should be better.  He spent two years on the run with Steve and Nat so presumably he got a crash course in hand to hand combat.  If he ever starts scissoring everyone in sight we'll know for sure that Nat taught him a few things.

[Spartan Girl]

I slept on it and I’m still mad. Because the whole Sharon reveal exposes a bigger problem. I hate to be that person, but unlike WandaVision, this show didn’t write or use its female characters well. At all.

I liked Sarah, but she was basically just Sam’s motivation and support. And to maybe tease a possible love interest with Bucky (which I’d like, but my point remains).

John Walker’s wife, like Lemar, was just there to prop him up and be his moral center. We never really got to see how she felt about him killing that guy. It never even caused the slightest friction in their relationship. It was “stand by your man” from beginning to end.

Ayo and Val were basically fan service cameos, and look how much backlash Ayo triggered from the audience just by taking off Bucky’s arm. Val could have been the Agatha of the show, yet was watered down to just a tease to the audience.

Karli went from victim to terrorist to martyr. Her actions were more or less swept under the rug because of her “noble” intentions, and because the audience was given a more evil female villain in Sharon.

And like everyone pointed out, everything that happened with Sharon was offscreen and consequently just felt so abrupt and out of left field. Like I said with GOT, foreshadowing/hinting isn’t the same as actual development. Was making her a villain really the only way to go with her character? 

Honestly the more I think about it, it would have been much better writing if the writers had Sharon be still disillusioned with everything she went through without coming off as a total bitch to Sam and Bucky. Instead of Zemo getting all the charm and (dubious) nuance, why not give us actual character development for Sharon? The one she DIDN’T get in any of the movies.  Have Sam and Bucky actually team up with Sharon (like the writers duped us into thinking was going to happen) and slowly have Sharon let go of her anger. The confrontation with Karli might have been more interesting if instead of being the Power Broker, Sharon was able to try to relate to Karli in feeling left behind and thus try to get through to her so it wasn’t just Sam trying to save her because “she’s just a kid.”

As much as I’d love to believe the Skrull theory I’d feel like it was a cheap cop-out to cover all this mess up.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Zonk]

8 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

They were never really good at that. In Iron Man 2, Whiplash has electric whips, and not even a shirt but still manages to not be crushed when pinned to a wall by a luxury car.

I mean Iron Man 2... enough said.

18 hours ago, Racj82 said:

At the end of the day, if that's your focus point in the scene, the show has already lost you.

There is no answer that would make sense to you if you are unraveling the thread this much.

There is no wrong way to watch a show and your question is valid.

You say there is no wrong way to watch a show, but the subtext of your post seems to be that there is.

The show hadn't lost me up until that point, but I just can't overlook breaking the rules of the universe. It's always been a problem for me when watching shows. It's why Star Trek Discovery is probably the worst show on the planet for me (I guess the generally horrible writing doesn't help).

It got worse since they put so much emphasis on ordinary humans (battlestar) dying so easily on this show and Sam even mentions in his speech that he is just an ordinary human, no super soldier serum in him, no sir. Yet, he has the power to lift an armoured truck, with his regular human bones and muscles...

At that point it's not just a minor (or big) annoyance, it destroys one of the big themes of the show.

5 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

I'm not sure why so many people seem to have a problem with Wakanda tech (*headed by Shuri*) being able to do the same thing as the Iron Man suit? Tony also didn't have super powers, the only difference is he built his suits and Sam's was gifted. Sam had his upgraded power jet and little Redwing babies helping lift the vehicle. Only one other person has mentioned the possibility/likelihood of the suit being able to convert hits to power similar to the Black Panther suit. Sam's suit expectedly is bulkier because he doesn't have super powers and because of the wings+gadgets.

Because the iron man suit is an exoskeleton while Sam's suit is mostly cloth. Cloth can be bullet proof, but it can't keep you from getting crushed.

The Redwings only attached after he had held the armored truck for like 30 seconds already.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Zonk

[swanpride]

Seconding the questionable use of female characters in the show. I mean, granted, it was supposed to be a cop buddy show, and in such shows, it is natural that female characters are mostly sidelined. But this was really some collective BS. They had something good going with Sara in the beginning, but honestly, why wasn't it her idea to call in all the favours? Why was it necessary for Sam to do it? She is the insider in the community after all. And I got the sneaky feeling that the main reason the gender flipped Karl Morgenthau was because they a female makes for a better martyr. 

[tv echo]

I've edited my original post on page 1 of this thread because I misheard what Sharon said on the phone in the mid-credits scene. However, it still makes no sense to me that Sharon is the Power Broker. 

IMO, the biggest strengths of this series were the following:

• AM and SS as Sam and Bucky, and their on-screen chemistry.
• Isaiah Bradley's story.
• WR as John Walker.
• Addition of Zemo.

And the biggest weaknesses of this series were the following:

• Sharon as the Power Broker.
• Walker's character journey.
• Downgrading Bucky's fighting skills for plot purposes.
• How the series was broken down into six episodes.

Overall, I enjoyed this series - mostly for the chance to see Sam and Bucky in an additional adventure - and I thought the production quality was great.

I wouldn't mind seeing a second season (although I'd love to see two big screen solo movies for Sam/Captain America and Bucky/Winter Soldier, separately, as well).

(pic source)

(pic source)

Edited April 24, 2021 by tv echo

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I slept on it and I’m still mad. Because the whole Sharon reveal exposes a bigger problem. I hate to be that person, but unlike WandaVision, this show didn’t write or use its female characters well. At all.

There was a lot of throwback to the classic buddy cop movies of the 80s, in this show. And those movies rarely used female characters well either. I guess when your main focus is writing a platonic buddies relationship there's a reluctance to let anyone (especially a girl, ew!) intrude on that.

Sharon seemed to be included because Marvel felt an obligation to return to her. It wasn't really necessary, in my view. Yes, she was treated shabbily by the writers, which meant she was also treated shabbily by the characters, but this show didn't fix any of that. Her becoming a villain doesn't make her a better or more interesting character.

Quote

Ayo and Val were basically fan service cameos, and look how much backlash Ayo triggered from the audience just by taking off Bucky’s arm. Val could have been the Agatha of the show, yet was watered down to just a tease to the audience.

I'd say Val is being set up in this show, so she can be a more prominent figure in future series - possible Armour Wars, hopefully a future Thunderbolts show. Her role in this was the villainous equivalent of Coulson in Iron Man.

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

It got worse since they put so much emphasis on ordinary humans (battlestar) dying so easily on this show and Sam even mentions in his speech that he is just an ordinary human, no super soldier serum in him, no sir. Yet, he has the power to lift an armoured truck, with his regular human bones and muscles...

I guess we have to consider Sam to be an enhanced human, thanks to his suit. Because the grounding that this show gave us, of Walker getting his arse kicked and Lemar being killed in one blow, was thrown out of the window. But we've also seen Hawkeye and Black Widow cope just fine, despite having no superpowers, so it comes down to whether you can accept that kind of inconsistency or not.

We did see Nat being utterly terrified of the Hulk because she knew he could kill her with a flick of his finger, while Thor was able to fight him, so if they can keep that level of consistency, I don't mind too much.

Ultimately, though, Steve Rogers looked like he belonged in a fight with Thanos, but Sam Wilson wouldn't have unless his suit gave him a lot more than the power of flight.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Danny Franks

[TimothyQ]

12 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't think they stuck the landing, I was disappointed.

I think they stuck the landing as best they could with six episodes. The length seemed to be in a weird spot: with a 2 hour movie, they would’ve tightened up the plot a lot. With a 8 or 9 episode series, it could’ve been fleshed out more appropriately. Six ended up being in a weird no-man’s land of being too long and too short. But I think they did well with the constraints they had. 

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Zonk said:

It got worse since they put so much emphasis on ordinary humans (battlestar) dying so easily on this show and Sam even mentions in his speech that he is just an ordinary human, no super soldier serum in him, no sir. Yet, he has the power to lift an armoured truck, with his regular human bones and muscles...

The more I think about that I think it would have worked better, and been an amazing visual if Sam had lifted the truck with his back to it. That way you could have said that the wings and the frame did all the work. Plus it would have looked like an Atlas with the whole world on his shoulders kind of thing.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Way to tarnish your great aunt’s legacy, Sharon. Especially since you told everyone at her funeral that she was your hero.

And now that you’ve got your pardon, and back working for your government, taking steps to commit treason. YAY! (That’s sarcasm).

I wanted to smash her face in with her “you had ONE job, Bucky” because he fell for Karli’s stalling plan?  
 

What a let down. And I mean the show, not Sharon. I still don’t give a shit about her.

Edited April 24, 2021 by GHScorpiosRule

[Morrigan2575]

29 minutes ago, TimothyQ said:

I think they stuck the landing as best they could with six episodes. The length seemed to be in a weird spot: with a 2 hour movie, they would’ve tightened up the plot a lot. With a 8 or 9 episode series, it could’ve been fleshed out more appropriately. Six ended up being in a weird no-man’s land of being too long and too short. But I think they did well with the constraints they had. 

That's a very good point. I remember thinking that the episode felt rushed. Making it a 2 hour finale/movie might at least given the story time to breathe. Instead everything just felt disjointed/jarring. 

[CCTC]

24 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Sharon seemed to be included because Marvel felt an obligation to return to her. It wasn't really necessary, in my view. Yes, she was treated shabbily by the writers, which meant she was also treated shabbily by the characters, but this show didn't fix any of that. Her becoming a villain doesn't make her a better or more interesting character.

Yes - it kind of felt like it was shoe-horned in and more for setting up something in the future instead of adding to the story.  Plus, from what I saw at the end, I am not sure the actress will make an interesting villain.  Even on her show Revenge, she probably the least compelling of the villains and gray characters on the show.   

I think they could have scrapped it and maybe spent the time developing Karly a bit more.  I know we were supposed to think of her as some complex character who had good intentions who went down a dark path, but they largely showed someone who came across as a pouty teenager who was not going to listen to anyone and early on showed a sociopathic coldness of innocent people getting killed for her cause.   My biggest complaint of the show is that they really did not have compelling main antagonist.  

I thought Walker was an interesting character, but they needed to spend a little more time with his turn-around at the end.  His joining the team at the end seemed more like a plot device than organic character development.  He was still pretty much in a steroid rage when we had last seen him.

Those complaints aside, I did like the series.  The acting was strong, the chemistry was good, much of the post battle was touching.  It was nice that they spent some time with showing the characters as they were trying to figure out what to do next.  I thought leaving it a mystery of how the father reacted to Bucky's confession was well done.  They did not have a ton of time to play it out, and a shorter scene could have come off either cliché or simply unbelievable.  Plus, I am not sure it would have been the right place to have another big dramatic scene.   If the father would have blasted Bucky, it would have affected the feel of the party at the docks, and they would have needed more time to make any forgiveness scenario seem feasible.

I liked the music playing on the closing credits.

[Racj82]

13 hours ago, Zonk said:

You say there is no wrong way to watch a show, but the subtext of your post seems to be that there is.

The show hadn't lost me up until that point, but I just can't overlook breaking the rules of the universe. It's always been a problem for me when watching shows. It's why Star Trek Discovery is probably the worst show on the planet for me (I guess the generally horrible writing doesn't help).

There is no subtext. It's why I specifically said for me at the beginning of my statements. 

For some, it's all about the minute details. If those little things don't fit or don't work, the whole thing doesn't work. Or takes them out of it too much. 

That's just not who I am and I'm glad I'm that way. There's nothing wrong with being more occupied with wanting tight plotting, characterization, etc. I think in general, we all want that. 

I just don't let these details take me over. Even some of the best movies and TV shows I watch will have plenty of wtf moments,  why did they do that moments, how does this work moments.  I call them out myself. I just don't get hung up on them. Especially, when the elements that are working for me are working really well. 

I feel like it's been clear for a while that the flag smasher stuff was affected by outside sources and change in direction. It's pretty scattered. But, I did think that the emotions hit me so that was my focus. 

I left this episode smiling (through a couple of tears), I feel like I learned things through the enemy side, I see how splintered the blip has made the world, I was inspired by Sam and Bucky and I really want to see more about what's going on with Sharon. I need a episode of something devoted to her journey after the blip.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Racj82

[Morrigan2575]

6 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Plus, from what I saw at the end, I am not sure the actress will make an interesting villain.  Even on her show Revenge, she probably the least compelling of the villains and gray characters on the show.   

She was a block of wood on Everwood,  Revenge (what little I watched mostly for other actors), the MCU movies and Falcon and Winter Soldier.  She won't (IMO) make a compelling villain. Wyatt Russell, was a compelling Villain/Anti-Cap, Karli was compelling right to the end, love her or hate her at least I had an emotional reaction towards her. What little we got of Val/Julia Lousi Dreyfus was entertaining. Emily VanCamp is just a snooze, IMO.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[Racj82]

On 4/24/2021 at 8:42 AM, CCTC said:

Yes - it kind of felt like it was shoe-horned in and more for setting up something in the future instead of adding to the story.  Plus, from what I saw at the end, I am not sure the actress will make an interesting villain.  Even on her show Revenge, she probably the least compelling of the villains and gray characters on the show.   

I think they could have scrapped it and maybe spent the time developing Karly a bit more.  I know we were supposed to think of her as some complex character who had good intentions who went down a dark path, but they largely showed someone who came across as a pouty teenager who was not going to listen to anyone and early on showed a sociopathic coldness of innocent people getting killed for her cause.   My biggest complaint of the show is that they really did not have compelling main antagonist.  

I thought Walker was an interesting character, but they needed to spend a little more time with his turn-around at the end.  His joining the team at the end seemed more like a plot device than organic character development.  He was still pretty much in a steroid rage when we had last seen him.

Those complaints aside, I did like the series.  The acting was strong, the chemistry was good, much of the post battle was touching.  It was nice that they spent some time with showing the characters as they were trying to figure out what to do next.  I thought leaving it a mystery of how the father reacted to Bucky's confession was well done.  They did not have a ton of time to play it out, and a shorter scene could have come off either cliché or simply unbelievable.  Plus, I am not sure it would have been the right place to have another big dramatic scene.   If the father would have blasted Bucky, it would have affected the feel of the party at the docks, and they would have needed more time to make any forgiveness scenario seem feasible.

I liked the music playing on the closing credits.

I don't think she was shoehorned in. I think was just simply put in for part of a bigger story. This series was not about her but was about setting her up. Her change in views. She also working with someone so it's not like she will be THE villain. There will be more of her to come so I'm fine with what we got.

I also think she was a stop-gap to help with parts of the flag smasher story that were affected by changes. I look forward to her being fleshed out as the center later.

For this series, I'm fine with the threat being what it is. Not because it all worked. But, the issues it brought up about the blip. Having Sharon be a slow burn in the background works for me.

This is a element that I think will be better with less shooting restrictions and real world drama possibly changing things.

On 4/24/2021 at 6:50 AM, swanpride said:

Seconding the questionable use of female characters in the show. I mean, granted, it was supposed to be a cop buddy show, and in such shows, it is natural that female characters are mostly sidelined. But this was really some collective BS. They had something good going with Sara in the beginning, but honestly, why wasn't it her idea to call in all the favours? Why was it necessary for Sam to do it? She is the insider in the community after all. And I got the sneaky feeling that the main reason the gender flipped Karl Morgenthau was because they a female makes for a better martyr. 

Because her name isn't in the title and it has nothing to do with gender.

It was to show more of Sam's personality. Reaching for community in crisis. 

Also,  Sara had clearly been fighting for her family on her own. She was over it by the time we see her here. She wasn't looking for more answers. Sam was.

Every character outside of Bucky, Sam, Walker and Zemo were not there to have their own stories. Man or women. It's not a knock on them. It's not about gender. Most shows and movies do this. When the story isn't about them, they aren't always as fully used, explored or detailed as they could be.

Shit they could have had Sara figure it all out, regarding the boat, on her own but it meant more to the writers to put the focus on Sam and how he tries to solve problems. 

On 4/23/2021 at 12:59 PM, VCRTracking said:

Seeing some people online who are disappointed with this finale as well as Wandavision's and I think still don't get that Marvel from the beginning is always, ALWAYS setting up the next story or stories. Sometimes they do it while having a satisfying conclusion but more often they don't. 

Also, I think there is a lot of building up of what these properties SHOULD be doing with the characters. Or the property MUST do this because of the source material.  There are dozens of theory videos and articles for this stuff now.

They aren't really allowed to just tell the story they want to tell. For some people. Not everyone.  

So, there is all this build up and expectation on the show that the show didn't totally create or have any intention of going to that place.

People are still mad there was no Mephisto in WandaVision or no Dr. Strange, Reed Richards. But, that was never their plan. I can't be mad at them for that.

I understand wanting tighter plotting. Better pacing. The anger with these shows often go far beyond looking at it as a show and seem to go into fantasy booking territory.

[moonshine71]

On 4/23/2021 at 6:15 AM, swanpride said:

 

Also, the new costume really Disappointed me. Honestly. I really liked the idea of the Wakandan design being married to the while, red and blue, and then they did the cheesiest and ugliest costume possible instead. Big let down. 

 

+1

I'll give them credit for the fact that it is pretty comics accurate, but it didn't translate that well to live action for me. 

Tbh, though, I only consider it a mediocre looking costume in the comics.

[swanpride]

...I actually think that the show dragged to much, not that it was too short. Well, it was too short, but in the sense that obviously someone decided that the whole show had to be about Sam making the decision to actually become Cap, and six episodes is way too long far that. While on the flip side, the thing I actually wanted to see, meaning Sam being Captain America and forcing the World to accept it as such was just squeezed into the last 20 minutes. And that is the problem, but even if there had been more episodes, it would have just meant that they had dragged out the foreplay even more and the climax would still be as dissatisfying, because the story at least I actually wanted to see is not the one they wanted to tell. And don't get me wrong, I don't mind them telling that story, but I feel that we needed a "fight" (firguratively speaking) over who should hold the shield and what the shield should represented being the topic of the last three, at least two episodes, not something cleared up in a single speech. 

Also, the more I think about it, I kind of dislike Sam taking on the Captain America name. I somehow would have preferred it, if he had taken the SHIELD but not the name. That would have been such a powerful symbol if he had said "I want to fight for the ideals of the shield, but I don't think that those are the ideals of the United states anymore". 

But again, apparently that was too gutsy for Marvel.....

[festivus]

I'm not the biggest fan of the suit, but the wings are perfection. The action shots look really good with those glowing wings. But yeah, huge target now. Steve can probably see them from the moon.

 

[Racj82]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

...I actually think that the show dragged to much, not that it was too short. Well, it was too short, but in the sense that obviously someone decided that the whole show had to be about Sam making the decision to actually become Cap, and six episodes is way too long far that. While on the flip side, the thing I actually wanted to see, meaning Sam being Captain America and forcing the World to accept it as such was just squeezed into the last 20 minutes. And that is the problem, but even if there had been more episodes, it would have just meant that they had dragged out the foreplay even more and the climax would still be as dissatisfying, because the story at least I actually wanted to see is not the one they wanted to tell. And don't get me wrong, I don't mind them telling that story, but I feel that we needed a "fight" (firguratively speaking) over who should hold the shield and what the shield should represented being the topic of the last three, at least two episodes, not something cleared up in a single speech. 

Also, the more I think about it, I kind of dislike Sam taking on the Captain America name. I somehow would have preferred it, if he had taken the SHIELD but not the name. That would have been such a powerful symbol if he had said "I want to fight for the ideals of the shield, but I don't think that those are the ideals of the United states anymore". 

But again, apparently that was too gutsy for Marvel.....

He already didn't take the name and mantle. Look what happened. If not him, it will probably be someone else. And who better but Sam who has learned from Isaiah, Bucky and Steve? 

No problems with that decision. This is what the show was built for and saw no reason to change that. He's Captain America but he's not a copy of him either. 

[Ailianna]

And who is to say that the upcoming movie won't deal with the backlash against Sam being Captain America? This was about Sam accepting the role; the movie may be about if the world can accept him in the role.

[swanpride]

In other words, we just watched an overlong epilogue. And that is exactly how it felt in the end. Now, they could have prevented the feeling with some tweaks, but they choppy pacing underlined this feeling. 

[paigow]

#ReleaseThePandemicCut

If Warner caved, maybe Disney will.

[Zonk]

Shower thought: At the end of the episode they displayed the title "Captain America and the Winter Soldier". Isn't it pretty disrespectful to still call Bucky the winter soldier after he finished his book and made amends for the things the winter soldier had done. Not to mention that he was mind controled at the time.

Shouldn't they have changed it to "Capatin America and Bucky Barnes"?

[paigow]

All the bounty hunters in Madripoor only recognize The Winter Soldier...

[catrice2]

9 hours ago, TimothyQ said:

I think they stuck the landing as best they could with six episodes. The length seemed to be in a weird spot: with a 2 hour movie, they would’ve tightened up the plot a lot. With a 8 or 9 episode series, it could’ve been fleshed out more appropriately. Six ended up being in a weird no-man’s land of being too long and too short. But I think they did well with the constraints they had. 

I don't know if it is true, but I heard that there were supposed to be 8 and that lots of things were changed due to filming and other restrictions because of COVID.  Considering that, I think they did a fairly good job. 

Also, both Sam and Bucky went on a journey. Sure if you were not paying attention it seems like it was more about Sam, but there was plenty to do with Bucky, it was all in his actions and reactions to things. It was just as much about Bucky coming to terms with his past and that although there would always be a part of the Winter Solider in him, it did not define him and he could move forward. 

As for the speeches, etc. I could have done without them, but a lot of what people are complaining about as "wokeness" etc. is literally in comic books in some form that were written before our latest political divide and before the words "woke" were being used so I don't know what the problem is.....

The pre-Winter Solider Bucky was very much a charmer, but what is interesting to me is that they really did not ever let a playful side of Sam come out in previous movies.   I very much like that they established a different relationship between them than either had with Steve.  

The ending  scenes at the party....it was not a cookout, but more of a crawfish boil....were perfect.   It implied that Bucky had some lightness and Sam had some peace. 

[kay1864]

18 hours ago, Afwife1992 said:

And descending like freaking Jesus or an archangel cradling Karli's body.

 Yep—we’re supposed to feel sorry for Karli all of a sudden? They didn’t exactly make her a sympathetic character on the previous five episodes.

[wanderingstar]

Kind of underwhelming. I liked the action scenes in the first half, but the stakes weren't clear to me. 

I enjoy Sharon, and kind of wish she'd had more to do this season.

Surprised they killed off Karli. I thought they'd make Sam her mentor and he'd bring her around from the dark side.

 

[MochaJay]

55 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Also, both Sam and Bucky went on a journey. Sure if you were not paying attention it seems like it was more about Sam, but there was plenty to do with Bucky, it was all in his actions and reactions to things. It was just as much about Bucky coming to terms with his past and that although there would always be a part of the Winter Solider in him, it did not define him and he could move forward. 

I agree with this, both Sam and Bucky had good stories with strong themes. In the end though I do think Sam was better served than Bucky. I thought we got the right amount of time to Sam's story and we had a mix of the subtle and explicit recapping of his major themes.

For Bucky, I felt the show held him a bit too much at arms length - there were times when I felt I had more insight into  Walker or Karli's views than Bucky's thoughts on events or themes. We are still having to guess and theorise about so much of his story, rather than experience it directly along with him.

That's a disappointment, because I wanted the show to help us really connect with both the leads, but I felt one was sacrificed a bit too much to make space for the plots of the supporting characters.

Edited April 24, 2021 by MochaJay

[kay1864]

18 hours ago, Afwife1992 said:

We have Julia Louis Dreyfus's character (though she was supposed to get her intro in Black Widow)

 

7 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

this wasn't intended to be Val's first appearance, we will see her in the Black Widow movie

Interesting that neither the actress nor the character are listed in Black Widow’s IMDb listing.

[catrice2]

3 hours ago, MochaJay said:

I agree with this, both Sam and Bucky had good stories with strong themes. In the end though I do think Sam was better served than Bucky. I thought we got the right amount of time to Sam's story and we had a mix of the subtle and explicit recapping of his major themes.

For Bucky, I felt the show held him a bit too much at arms length - there were times when I felt I had more insight into  Walker or Karli's views than Bucky's thoughts on events or themes. We are still having to guess and theorise about so much of his story, rather than experience it directly along with him.

That's a disappointment, because I wanted the show to help us really connect with both the leads, but I felt one was sacrificed a bit too much to make space for the plots of the supporting characters.

My guess is they plan to do more with Bucky with him totally becoming the White Wolf...whether that happens in the Wakanda series or another series or movies is the question.  If they wanted Sam to become Captain America I always assumed more time would be spent on that than Bucky.  He got time...the Wakanda edits and his time with Zemo, as well as the people he was trying to make amends with.    It was just a different focus.   

Part of it too was Bucky was not communicating.  If you watch closely after his time with Sam's family Bucky talks more than he has in most of the movies....first with Sam, then with Karli, then with the father...he had to learn to talk to people. Sebastian Stan did a great job with acting with his body and reactions...when he gets thanked, when he is watching the nephews play, when he is called Sgt. Barnes....when he gives Sam the shield after the fight with John Walker.... proving to himself that Zemo had no power over him and that he was not a killer when he held him at gunpoint....so many scenes....he was absorbing and reflecting...his struggle was more internal. 

Also in the end where he was always ashamed of his arm and covering it up with jackets, you see Bucky in a sleeveless shirt, letting kids hang on it, etc. because he has accepted it as part of him...there was a lot there that just wasn't as flashy as Sam's speeches, etc.   Also with the killing, etc. Everyone is complaining that they let his power go....two things, (1) he was mostly fighting other super soldiers and  (2)  he was trying not to hurt anyone as much as possible.  It is harder to fight someone and not kill them than it is to fight someone and intend to kill them.  He was purposely holding back because he no longer wanted to be "that" person....like when he threw the knife next to the Flag Smasher instead of killing him/her with it. 

Is it just me or did I only count 3 FlagSmashers getting into the van that blew up? I guess we were to assume that Sam rescued the one from the river and all four were being transported, but I swear it only shows three getting in.....

Edited April 25, 2021 by catrice2
Because Talk to Text is horrible! I can usually spell

[paigow]

12 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Is it just me or did I only count 3 FlagSmashers getting into the van that blew up? I guess we were to assume that Sam rescued the one from the river and all four were being transported, but I swear it only shows three getting in.....

You are correct. Only 3 are seated in the van before Sokovian Alfred pushes the button.

[LJones41]

This series was such a disappointment to me.  I had such high hopes, because someone had compared it to "Captain America: The Winter Soldier".  Instead, "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier" spiraled into the bad writing of movies like "Captain America: Civil War" and "The Avengers: Endgame".  I just realized that aside from "Black Panther", which had a questionable finale, most of the MCU productions in the past six years have either been likable, yet mediocre; or just terrible.  And most of them - including this series - have been badly overrated.  Disney/Marvel has really managed to brainwash a lot of movie and television fans, using the media.  At least it seems that way to me.