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S01.E04: The Whole World Is Watching

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I was reading over at Lipstick Alley and someone made the comparison to when Tony told Steve to drop the shield because he didn't deserve it. I like that, it adds even another layer to that scene.

Ayo did leave him the arm though. That's his struggle right there. Can he be the person that deserves it. They also left the shield and John is not the person who deserves it. Sam definitely deserves and I don't think there's any question about that, but for him it's tied up in his identity as a black man in America. The more you think about it, the better it gets.

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3 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Right, but now Zemo's part of the mission was over.

Karli is still on the loose, Bucky & Sam have no local contacts to track her - Zemo with his giant bag of candy is the way.

Edited by paigow · Reason: Had to Mando!
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I don't know about that. They have Sharon now. Which makes you think that if they'd known about her, would Bucky have still broken Zemo out? 

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2 hours ago, LJones41 said:

Bucky should have never helped Zemo escape from prison.  It was a really stupid decision.  The latter had killed a good number of people since his escape and tried to murder Karli in cold blood, because of his bigotry against enhanced people.  Yet, Sam and Bucky kept protecting him.  And many are behaving as if he is not much of a threat.  Sam and Bucky need to find that man and put him back in prison. 

I get Bucky thinking that tracking the serum was sufficiently important to work with Zemo. But after the death of Nagel, Zemo's Hydra knowledge was no longer required. So Sam & Bucky should have got rid of him then - all he was offering at that point was free use of an apartment. They really made an error letting him get the lead on Karli's location.

Bucky did say in this episode that it was really Zemo who broke himself out. So maybe Bucky didn't slip him the keycard after all - it was ambiguous last episode. Which means Zemo could have escaped anytime he wanted, and that Bucky had realised this.

We haven't yet had any payoff to Zemo being on Bucky's list of villains who owe him amends. Was Bucky always intending a confrontation with Zemo?

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I think Bucky left it. He asked what he was reading. He also said to Sam that it's the meat element that's the security problem.

Plus he used the word 'technically'. That's a fun word to use to not take any responsibility. 

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18 minutes ago, MochaJay said:

I get Bucky thinking that tracking the serum was sufficiently important to work with Zemo. But after the death of Nagel, Zemo's Hydra knowledge was no longer required. So Sam & Bucky should have got rid of him then

I agree! I don't understand the need for him anymore either especially now they have Sharon. They should've just let the warriors take him back to Wakanda. And it was hard to watch Bucky fight Ayo who saved him and freed him from Hydra/Winter Soldier to protect fake Cap, especially after that beautiful beginning scene of her and Bucky. It didn't feel right, him taking sides against Wakanda.

I know they won't appear in this show but after watching fake Cap kill someone with the shield don't you think Steve would reach out to Bucky or Sam and say WTF did that asshole just do to my legacy. Or, War Machine might show or Bruce. It's hard to believe no one would show especially if they know super soldier are running around. I don't believe Tony would sit back and do nothing especially if he saw the bloody shield. I actually thought fake Cap beheaded the guy due to all the blood on the shield.

Sebastian Stan is killing it and makes me want to see more of Bucky's story. I can't take my eyes off him.

Is this series setting up a movie?

 

 

 

 

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On 4/9/2021 at 4:49 PM, Hana Chan said:

He really didn't exist as anything more than Walker's morality pet. I liked him primarily because he had a more clear-eyed view of what being CA should mean and wanted to help his friend achieve that. But his existence, and death, was pretty much reduced to motiving Walker. Which is a shame. And I probably would have found it more compelling if he'd been killed accidently by Walker while he was unused to his super strength.

Agreed on the morality pet.

I was not invested in him at all because of the portrayal.

Unpopular opinion - saying that I am starting to like Walker is overstating it, but I am getting more invested in this character. Which is weird because I wouldn't / don't like him as a person (esp the entitlement and the mililtary hooray stuff) - but they are portraying how he is a flawed character and very human. I don't know why but it makes it more real to me?

I really liked Steve who was also portrayed as someone with flaws but those flaws felt different. 

This is a horrible comparison but all I can think about is when they ask you about your flaws at a job interview... there's:

"I really can't resist chocolate" or "I'm too much of a perfectionist..." and then there are your REAL flaws which you would never actually tell them cause you want the job!

At the last scene I was all like "This is really bad publicity, man!". But I was feeling his rage.

Of course, that makes him a bad Captain America and bad news in terms of the serum. But it doesn't necessarily make him evil, at least not from the get-go.

Though, I was also thinking that they were really setting him up for failure. I mean why would you just send two guys without any superpowers out to fight on their own?

What are they gonna do against anybody? Why not send a whole team?

What is the shield gonna do for them - it's not that awesome on its own... At least Sam has awesome tech gear and experience as an Avenger.

Edited by RollTheHardSix
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Also - and this may sound a little bit mean:

You could also see the two Captain Americas as two versions of America itself, in relation to the outside world

(and possibly to some within the US as well)

Steve's Cap is how Capt America would be perceived by America itself - a great hero who saves others, is admired across the world, does the right thing no matter what

Walker's Cap is how Capt America would be perceived by the rest of the world - an interloper who throws his weight around, expects to be admired, pushing American interests

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18 hours ago, xaxat said:

Like many, I thought this was a strong episode for Sam, showing how he was a worthy successor to Steve. One of things I like about his portrayal is that he doesn't have a magical ability to get people to do the "right" thing. But he does have a believable ability to convince people to be the best version of their self. Use that with multiple people and it becomes a powerful ability. The fact that he was unable/unwilling to do that with Walker is a tragedy.

One interesting thing about Sam in this episode is that until the big fight at the end he hardly wears his falcon suit at all. Even when going to talk to Karli or trying to find her. By comparison Walker wears his CM suit all the time. It kind of shows even more how Walker is always ready to fight, but Sam didn't really expect most of his actions this episode to turn into one.

Also interesting that Walker is totally focused on Super Soldiers specifically not enhanced people in general when he got beat by the Dora. Like just off the top of my head, Thor, Wanda, Natasha, Iron Man and Spiderman could all totally kick his ass and none of them are super soldiers.

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On 4/9/2021 at 10:40 PM, Starry-Eyed said:

As satisfying as it was to watch Walker getting wailed on by the Dora Milage, that scene bothered me because the DM escalate it so unnecessarily. Okay, Walker puts a hand on you, knock it away, knock him down, aggressively enforce your boundaries and put him in his place. Great. But then with no one doing anything besides Walker's initial (not overtly threatening) shoulder-touch, the DM starts doing what look like lethal attacks if they are not repelled. Lamarr get attacked for just standing there, despite not doing ANYTHING, and when Sam and Bucky try to simply reason with the DM and prevent any fatalities, they are attacked as well. Meanwhile, Zemo, the DM's actual target, merrily slips away. I feel like the point of the scene was to make the viewer go "don't mess with the Dora Milage" but ultimately it made them seem incompetent.

 

While the shades of grey can still make her interesting, to me, Karli has been irredeemable ever since she blew up a building with captives tied up inside. Given that, I find it hard to believe she's really that broken up about killing someone she was fighting. What I find REALLY telling is that she was standing in the crowd during Walker's execution of her friend. In other words, she was close enough to hear him bellowing "WHERE IS SHE?" at him, was close enough to see that Walker was going to kill him for not telling, and chose to protect herself by staying in the crowd rather than protect her friend.

A thing to consider about the Dora Milage is that they are the "elite of the elite" warriors of Wakanda.  They are its "John Walkers."  Wakanda is the powerful "super-power" nation-state in the world as far as we know.  Just as American special forces are the "big swinging dick" in Wakanda the "big swinging dicks" have vaginas.

Walker's "shoulder touch" represented a challenge to the Dora Milage.  And in Wakanda, a challenge like that only ends when one party either yields or dies.  And "ignorance of the culture" is no excuse as far as the Dora Milage are concerned.

As for Karli the GRC and its goons murdered Mama Donya, so she murdered some of them back.  And yeah, in the USA at least, withholding vital medication from someone who is in your care who requires it to the point that they die from its lack would be considered Second Degree Murder through Depraved Indifference.

As far as Karli watching her friend's execution, I think she probably got there right at the end when it was too late to save.  Attacking Walker alone now that he clearly had taken a dose of the SSS would have been a slightly elaborate suicide.  It certainly wouldn't help the rest of her friends.

 

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6 hours ago, LJones41 said:

 

What was the point of that scene?  That Bucky is more important than Sam?

 

... the point I think is to deepen our understanding of the pain and suffering Bucky has been through and to further establish his ties to Wakanda in general and Ayo specifically. Ayo being the one who helped him recover from being the Winter Soldier informs our understanding of all their interactions in the episode and explains the feelings of hurt and betrayal on both sides. It has absolutely nothing to do with Sam.

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3 hours ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I agree! I don't understand the need for him anymore either especially now they have Sharon.

Sharon would not have found the funeral...unless her satellite drops candy and Euros from the sky, she will not be much help bribing kids for info on where the Flag Smashers store stuff or like to hide.

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Like just off the top of my head, Thor, Wanda, Natasha, Iron Man and Spiderman could all totally kick his ass and none of them are super soldiers.

3 of these are genuinely super powered / mutants... 1 has nearly indestructible armour ...  

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Anyone else wonder if Ayo went rogue? T'Challa wanted Zemo alive, to make sure he suffered (since Zemo wanted death). T'Challa turned Zemo over to Berlin/UN/US rather than take him back to Wakanda. Ayo seems to be acting out her own revenge/justice now that she has the opportunity. Especially with her comment about having jurisdiction wherever they want.

I just wonder if there's more to the Dora Milaje then just showing up to be bad ass. This story has a lot about what makes a hero, a good person, a freedom fighter, a terrorist, etc. 

Edited by Morrigan2575
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23 minutes ago, paigow said:

3 of these are genuinely super powered / mutants... 1 has nearly indestructible armour ...  

Of course, but Walker said that he was specifically upset that the women who beat him weren't "super soldiers" not that they weren't super powered.

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It is certainly questionable to break Zemo out and then keep him around after he killed someone.

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This is one thing that I really love about this series - it's not afraid to paint all the characters in varying shades of grey so that we can at least understand the POVs and motivations of everyone and sympathize with them while still getting that they are handing things the wrong way. 

 

It's a pity that they seemed to be trying to achieve this with sloppy writing.  What a disappointment.

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I thought that Karli's reaction to killing Lemar was less being upset over killing someone (during her plot to, you know, murder a man with knife wielding super soldiers), and more a realization that shit had just got real and Walker was about to stop trying to arrest them and start trying to kill them.

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I think it was more because she killed someone "innocent". Lemar was after all only kidnapped to get to Walker. She rationalised the killing of the people in that one organisation with them keeping important medicines and similar from people who need it, and she had a vendetta against Walker for what he symbolises with the shield, but Lemar hadn't actually done something which would have put him on the "bad person - worthy of killing" list yet.

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1 hour ago, swanpride said:

I think it was more because she killed someone "innocent". Lemar was after all only kidnapped to get to Walker. She rationalised the killing of the people in that one organisation with them keeping important medicines and similar from people who need it, and she had a vendetta against Walker for what he symbolises with the shield, but Lemar hadn't actually done something which would have put him on the "bad person - worthy of killing" list yet.

She may not have planned on killing him directly, but I don't think she cared about Lemar being innocent one way or the other, she knocked him off a moving truck in an earlier episode and likely would have killed or seriously injured him then if not for Walker saving him with the shield, he was a hostage to lure Walker in and it made sense to keep him alive for potential leverage.

Her and her crew's reaction was like when a group of kids are playing rough and one of them gets hurt and everyone freezes for a second then run away so they don't get in trouble when an adult gets there. They're not doing that because they feel bad that someone got hurt, they're doing it because they're worried about facing the consequences.

They've never been in any real danger to that point when fighting Walker/Lemar and Sam/Bucky because they're super soliders AND the people they're fighting are trying to do the hero thing capture them rather than kill them, once they killed Lemar that changed and they instantly knew it.

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It was great seeing the Dora Milaje, they are amazing warriors.  I wish we knew more about them as individuals though.  Besides Okoye and Ayo, do we even know the names of any of the others?  I was hoping to at least learn more names.

Love that bystanders filmed Walker killing Karli's friend.  Hoping this leads to his downfall.

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On 4/11/2021 at 2:50 PM, paigow said:
On 4/11/2021 at 11:34 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Right, but now Zemo's part of the mission was over.

Karli is still on the loose, Bucky & Sam have no local contacts to track her - Zemo with his giant bag of candy is the way.

Edited 21 hours ago by paigow · Reason: Had to Mando!

Well, he seemed to have given the girl the entire bag....

Seriously, though, I felt like there was almost an editing error with the candy scene:

1) Zemo uses the candy to get close enough to the young girl so that she can give him information about the memorial service

2) He whispers to her and the other kids that Sam and Bucky are very bad men and not to be trusted

3) We never see Sam or Bucky try to extract information from the children who have been warned against them (or anyone else for that matter, because Zemo admits that he has a source)

4) Zemo, accompanied by the two "bad men" he warned the girl about, shows up, gives her money, and is led to the memorial

So, we are supposed to believe that the girl was so eager for the money, she'd lead the bad men to the hidden place?  More likely, she would have run off when she saw them close to Zemo.  It just seemed like Zemo's warning was unnecessary in the context of this episode, since it never led to anything.

On 4/10/2021 at 10:32 AM, Jenniferbug said:

I'm loving Zemo and glad they're setting him up to continue in the MCU. I didn't see his scenes with the kids as too sinister. I saw it as someone who, having been a father, was more successful at knowing how to get the kids to approach him and give him info. Creepy and manipulative for sure, but no pedo vibes.  Sam and Bucky just charging in and asking questions got them nowhere. It was his experience with children previously that made the difference.

I agree. I believed him when he said that his son had loved Turkish Delight.  He presumably loved his son and it doesn't seem likely that he would intentionally harm a child.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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On 4/11/2021 at 4:35 PM, RollTheHardSix said:

Though, I was also thinking that they were really setting him up for failure. I mean why would you just send two guys without any superpowers out to fight on their own?

What are they gonna do against anybody? Why not send a whole team?

What is the shield gonna do for them - it's not that awesome on its own... At least Sam has awesome tech gear and experience as an Avenger.

And this is the issue I have always had with Sam potentially being the next Captain America.

Th shield is very heavy, and can't be thrown accurately by just anyone.  We were given a short flashback where we were told that Walker is an unusual specimen for a human, which gives him the ability to wield it.

Sam is a very good fighter, but much like Clint, what makes him special (other than his empathy and personality) is his equipment, not any unique fighting ability as we were told Walker possesses, or Natasha, or, of course, Bucky. (So, too, even if a person could lift Mjolnir, it's very different from being able to accurately utilize it.)

Thus, it would seem to me that  carrying the shield, instead of his utilizing his Falcon equipment, would make him much less of a successful hero.  To be clear, I think the shield would also hinder Natasha. Only Bucky is enhanced enough to get maximum use out of it, and he already has his arm.

I understand why the optics of Sam, an unsullied American hero, as Captain America would be a great thing, but, in reality, wouldn't it make him a worse fighter?

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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7 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

(So, too, even if a person could lift Mjolnir, it's very different from being able to accurately utilize it.)

And Steve proved, in Endgame, that not only could he lift Mjolnir, but he was also able to utilize it, hence Thor's happy and gleeful "I knew it!"

And I don't care what the show said about Walker being a "special specimen", no way do I believe he'd be able to use the Shield like they showed him doing in the second episode.

And Jeebus Cripes! Waa-Waa! He may have said he got his ass handed to him by non-super soldiers, but I saw the underlying "they were women!" in his tone.

And in that conversation with Lemar, he admitted that those three medal of honors he won was for doing things "that weren't right." So I took that to mean it wasn't anything honorable. So further proof he isn't worthy and doesn't deserve the Shield, whose image he's just tarnished.

And yes, I did go watch some movies* to cleanse my brain of what I'd just watched.

Regarding Turkish Delight: when my sister returned from Turkey years ago. she brought me a box of Turkish Delight and I LOVED them!

*Guess which ones? 😁

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21 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And in that conversation with Lemar, he admitted that those three medal of honors he won was for doing things "that weren't right." So I took that to mean it wasn't anything honorable. So further proof he isn't worthy and doesn't deserve the Shield, whose image he's just tarnished.

I took it more as Walker recognising that he did things in the army that were morally questionable, but justified because he was following orders and/or protecting comrades. They may bother him, and he may have fears that he's unworthy of his accolades, but at the end of the day he can tell himself "I did my job."

I'd be disappointed if they revealed Walker to be a complete fraud, because it devalues the difficulty he's been shown to have living up to Steve's legacy. I want him to be a guy who was everything a country would want a soldier to be - brave, strong, tactically aware and very good at his job. But that's still not enough to be Captain America.

Steve had an unshakeable belief in right and wrong, and he wouldn't let anyone tell him otherwise. His entire stance in Civil War was that what the UN wanted to do with the Sokovia Accords was wrong. Walker is the kind of guy to say, "I'll check my beliefs at the door and do what my superiors tell me," and given the way he's reacted when he's been out there without guidance, perhaps it was better for everyone that he did do what he was told as a soldier.

Edited by Danny Franks
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For me, Walker being dismayed that a group of women warriors beat the crap out of him doesn’t make him a horrible male chauvinist. It makes him a strong, physically fit, hugely successful soldier - a warrior himself - who could, generally, be expected to physically overpower a woman, or probably even women, who attacked him. I can completely understand him being surprised and humiliated by having been so completely physically dominated by the Dora, especially when he’s already struggling with whether he’s worthy of the shield. 
 

Is he a chauvinist to some degree? Sure. He didn’t expect to get attacked and thrashed by a group of women. But was that a reasonable expectation for a man of his experience and training? Yeah. 

A better man, like Sam or Steve or Bucky, would learn from that and adjust expectations. John Walker doesn’t seem to be that kind of man. At least not at this point in his life, though the glimpse we got of his wife and his relationship with Lemar make me believe he’s been a basically good guy who got in way over his head and didn’t have the tools or the time to deal with it

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I don't think that Walker cared that he was beaten by women and that was what drove him to take the serum, I think that would be too simple. I guess it could be a bit of that, but I think it was more that he really thought that being Captain American would be easy and is shocked that it isn't. This is a guy who has always had things go easy for him, who did what was expected of him, was always listened to and respected, but all of the sudden here he is with people who wont just do what he asks, who don't care about who is he, and he is realizing that being Captain American is about a lot more than just wearing a flag while shaking hands and signing autographs. Suddenly he isn't winning all of the time easily, and that's just not something he likes. For the first time, he actually feels like he's failing, and that's why he took the serum. He just cant stand the idea that he isn't the best or that he might not be the guy for the job. On paper, he seems like the obvious choice, but for anyone who knew Steve and what really made him Captain America, he just doesn't have what Steve had.  

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  • Unpopular Opinion incoming: Sebastian Stan overacted in the opening scene. (Please send your requests for the "dislike" post reaction to the staff of this site, thank you.)
     
  • I loved Steve Rogers too (minus Endgame Steve) but I'm tired of the pedestal he's being put on, especially by Bucky. (And I'm not sure I buy Zemo agreeing so readily that Steve wasn't corrupted by the serum, or by the power the serum gave him. That rang false to me coming from him.)
     
  • "Didn't think there could be another Captain America until I met you" - oh god, what embarrassing bullshit.
     
  • Walker just kicks in the door to Zemo's place, like dude you didn't have to knock but you could have tried the knob first.
     
  • So basically, neither Walker nor the Dora Milaje have any diplomacy skills whatsoever.
     
  • Two Dora Milaje against poor Lemar, what even.
     
  • What single event in Afghanistan results in one person receiving three Medals of Honor? Why isn't one medal enough? Will we ever find out?
     
  • More Sarah please, and not just on the phone. (Same for Sharon.)
     
  • The more Karli speaks the less I like her. AND then she threatened Sarah and ker kids? Fuck this girl. And I don't think the serum is causing these "evil people side effects" anymore (Nagel did say he "purified" it or whatever, I can't remember his exact words). I think it's just Karli and Walker being poisoned by their own shit; it has nothing to do with the serum.
     
  • Although maybe Nagel added "advanced hand to hand combat skills" to the serum, because these people should only be stronger/faster, not be able to hold their own in a fight with The Winter Soldier, and yet here we are.
     
  • Lemar was totally fridged. This death got me, I admit - it did not need to be like this. I'm going to be upset about this for a while.
     
  • Walker basically did a superhero landing on that bus (van) when he crashed through that window to go after the FS after they killed Lemar. It was a very deliberately composed shot, too, shield front and center. Interesting choice, then contrasted shortly after by the bloody shield after he killed Nico.
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10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I guess it could be a bit of that, but I think it was more that he really thought that being Captain American would be easy and is shocked that it isn't.

Yep. I also didn't take his comment about them not even being super soldiers as anything bad. Seemed more judging himself, and his ability to be on this level. If he got his ass kicked by Super Soldiers or the Big 3 well that's understandable, he's only human. However, getting your ass handed to you by other "only humans" when you're trying to live up to the Legend of Steve Rogers...

I don't hate Walker, I don't really hate anyone, even Karli has her good/bad moments. I really loved her talk with Sam yet hated her threatening Sam's sister.

I disliked Walker being brutish and an arrogant ass but, I thought his scenes with Lemar showed a man in over his head. As one reviewer put it, Walker is the guy Tommy Lee Jones would have picked in First Avgenger.

I still think Sharon is working for SHIELD/Fury undercover.

 

Edited by Morrigan2575
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1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Th shield is very heavy

It's not. It is made out of vibranium, and Steve specifically mentions it being extremely light the first time he picks it up. Any normie could lift the shield, and I think everyone with some training could throw it. Maybe not with the same level of precision and force Steve could, but it can be used as a weapon by pretty much everyone. And Bucky has used it multiple times already. Granted, using thing shield in combination with Sam's wings is most likely pretty unwieldy. But on the ground, he could use it without any problems.

19 minutes ago, bethy said:

Is he a chauvinist to some degree? Sure. He didn’t expect to get attacked and thrashed by a group of women. But was that a reasonable expectation for a man of his experience and training? Yeah. 

No. Because Sam and Bucky warned him not to underestimate those women. A man with experience and training would take such a warning seriously. That Walker didn't was mostly the result of him seeing a bunch of women, not considering that they might have special training. He most likely would have underestimated Natasha, too, despite knowing that she was a Black Widow.

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6 minutes ago, swanpride said:

No. Because Sam and Bucky warned him not to underestimate those women. A man with experience and training would take such a warning seriously. That Walker didn't was mostly the result of him seeing a bunch of women, not considering that they might have special training. He most likely would have underestimated Natasha, too, despite knowing that she was a Black Widow.

I didn’t say he wasn’t arrogant. He disregarded Bucky and Sam the same way he disregarded the Dora. A man with experience and training can still make mistakes - I just don’t think his mistake and his reactions were tied solely to the fact that the Dora are women. 

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I am sure he would have taken the warning more seriously if the fighter in front of him had been a male.

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3 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I am sure he would have taken the warning more seriously if the fighter in front of him had been a male.

No doubt. I never said their being women didn’t factor in. 

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Walker's bought into the propaganda. He seems to have not taken into consideration the years that Steve gave up the title and was persona non grata to the world at large. He's so completely bought into the propaganda that he thinks the title of 'Captain America' is all that is necessary. He throws that around just as much as he does the shield.

Steve never referred to himself as Captain America. He never introduced himself as such. He never used the title in reference to himself. Everyone else did.

John Walker is a hell of a soldier. He's even a decent man based on what we've seen of him in quieter moments. But he's never known weakness by everything we've seen of him. He's known doubt and he certainly looks back on his Medals of Honor with a bleaker outlook than the Government Dickweeds are likely to. And it's interesting that he's able to compartmentalize that 'worst day of his life' vs what the shield is supposed to be. As if carrying the shield and getting the moniker of Captain America means that the respect and honor automatically comes with it. "I'm Captain America." "Do you know who I am?!" That's soldier talk and far closer to what Col. Philips wanted, indeed. 'He passed every test we put him through. He's big. He's fast. He obeys orders.'

Meanwhile, Erskine held fast. Steve was the clear choice. Erskine was "looking for qualities beyond the physical."

And when Walker got beaten badly by the Dora Milaje and had to sit there in disbelief saying 'they weren't even super soldiers' -- it was desperation that made him take the serum. And I daresay it was a similar thing for the Flag Smashers. Desperation to be physically equal or superior to the task at hand. It's an understandable place, even a relatable one, but desperate times and desperate measures rarely lead to good places.

And I have no doubt that Walker will double down. At this point, the shield will have to be pried from him. If nothing else, losing Lamar is the step too far. His pride and grief will not allow him to step down, I don't think. And the serum will exacerbate that.

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I didn't see it as sexist either. He has training, they have training but he got his ass whupped. I think it was more that if I can lose that badly to unenhanced trained fighters what chance do I have against supersoldiers? He's so much in over his head, he was twitchy up until then and then totally defeated. 

48 minutes ago, Abra said:

Unpopular Opinion incoming: Sebastian Stan overacted in the opening scene. (Please send your requests for the "dislike" post reaction to the staff of this site, thank you.)

Oh, you know I can't agree with that! That was 70 years worth of tension over being controlled let loose. I woulda been sobbing on the floor. I like it because he was just way too calm from when Steve found him till when he went back under. That dam had to break.

48 minutes ago, Abra said:

I loved Steve Rogers too (minus Endgame Steve) but I'm tired of the pedestal he's being put on, especially by Bucky. (And I'm not sure I buy Zemo agreeing so readily that Steve wasn't corrupted by the serum, or by the power the serum gave him. That rang false to me coming from him.)

Yes. I think Bucky is totally tying his self worth all up in it. See: his one track mind on Sam for not taking the shield. I know I keep saying it, but there should be some real anger there from both of them if either one of them wants to admit it. Ain't holding out any hope though.

I'm hoping Zemo agreeing is more picking of the scab, because I don't think he believes anybody needs to be on that pedestal, not even Steve.

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27 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I am sure he would have taken the warning more seriously if the fighter in front of him had been a male.

He was condescending AF to them. "Pointy sticks"? And somehow he believes that he has jurisdiction for an off the book operation in Latvia, but tells the Dora Milaje they don't?     When he raised his hand to put it on Ayo's shoulder (something I don't think he would have done to a man), I knew he was going to get his ass handed to him.

He's lucky he still has that hand.

Edited by xaxat
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2 minutes ago, festivus said:

Yes. I think Bucky is totally tying his self worth all up in it. See, his single minded track on Sam for not taking the shield. I know I keep saying it, but there should be some real anger there from both of them if either one of them wants to admit it. Ain't holding out any hope though.

I'm hoping Zemo agreeing is more picking of the scab, because I don't think he believes anybody needs to be on that pedestal, not even Steve.

Steve didn't think himself worthy of the pedestal. I mean, he had his convictions and he fought for them but, come on... 'I'm just a kid from Brooklyn.'

But I do agree that Bucky is tying his self worth into Steve's legacy. But I totally get it. Bucky saw worth in Steve when no one else did. Steve went up against the world for Bucky's sake, to get him past the brainwashed Winter Soldier and back to whatever he could choose for himself. Steve still saw something worthwhile in Bucky after all of that and he was right to do so. Sam... isn't quite there yet but he's learning more about Bucky in all of this.

I think Sam is coming to the place where he steps up, not because Steve wanted him to, but because he feels he can do the right thing with the shield and I think he'll also come to understand why Steve stepped up for Bucky as well. Fire forged friends and all that.

And then they'll go home and Steve will be all 'Hey, I made my Ma's stew for dinner! Have a seat and tell me all about your week!' What? It's my head, I can imagine what I want!

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Never said Steve thought he should be on a pedestal. I was agreeing that Bucky's got him on one and that ain't healthy. Him and Sam both got to come to terms with that.

I see that John was condescending to Ayo, but he was to Sam & Bucky too in the first few episodes. I see it as more cocky than sexist. He got knocked down several hundred pegs though, so hey.

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51 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Steve never referred to himself as Captain America. He never introduced himself as such. He never used the title in reference to himself. Everyone else did.

During the heat of battling a giant alien force, Steve took the time to introduce himself as Steve Rogers to a sentient teenage tree, and I will love him forever for that. 

40 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Steve didn't think himself worthy of the pedestal. I mean, he had his convictions and he fought for them but, come on... 'I'm just a kid from Brooklyn.'

Agreed, and while part of me would like to see Steve tell both Sam and Bucky to stop putting him on one, I'm also hoping to see them come to that realization on their own. I am apparently one of the very few who was perfectly happy with Steve's ending in Endgame, but I'm fine with his friends being angry at Steve for leaving or whatever other complicated emotions they may have. Don't know if any of it will be done in 2 episodes, but we shall see. 

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3 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

During the heat of battling a giant alien force, Steve took the time to introduce himself as Steve Rogers to a sentient teenage tree, and I will love him forever for that. 

That exchange gave me the warm fuzzies! Taking rest of my response to the Marvel Saga thread.

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I am interested in seeing how this killing plays out...

The guy Walker!Cap killed was the guy that was holding Walker's arms so Karli could flat out murder him. Sam was all 'what did you do' when he saw evidence of Walker having taken the serum but the second Walker said 'They've got Lamar' Sam was backing him up. Sam and Bucky and Walker were all fighting against the Flag Smashers.

So what we ended up with was the guy who used to be a fan of Captain America taking a very hands on part in trying to kill Captain America and then getting killed by Captain America.

Also, how quickly did it register with the Flag Smashers that new!Cap was enhanced? Wow... suddenly they couldn't completely over power him, someone OTHER than their targeted symbol got killed (oh noes! our declarative murder statement went awry! scatter!) and they all scarpered out of there.

While I still think the PR nightmare is going to be huge and whatever group new!Cap is representing (whether it's specifically the US like they said in the first episode or the GRC(? is that the name?) is going to get a little hesitant, John would be telling the truth in saying that the man he killed was attempting to kill him moments ago and did participate in killing Lamar. Still, the fact that the guy was running away and holding his hands out and not fighting back isn't a good look no matter what.

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50 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Still, the fact that the guy was running away and holding his hands out and not fighting back isn't a good look no matter what.

More than it not being a good look it is what crosses what Walker did into criminal territory. Wanting to kill him may be understandable but it’s a line cops and soldiers are not supposed to cross. 

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3 hours ago, xaxat said:

 

 

Bucky's arm was given to him freely by the King of Wakanda, no conditions were attached to him having the arm in the scene we saw (and, in fact, they had to somewhat coerce him into taking the arm at all). It's his ARM and part of his bodily autonomy the second they attached it to him.

Taking away a disabled person's gifted prosthetic limb is very different from taking away a shield or an iron man suit or the like. It would be like Tony turning off the device that allows Rhodes to walk if he was refusing to go along with some plan Tony had.

As to the shield, given that this is apparently from an entirely different timeline, has markings that indicated it's not the original, and we don't even know what it's made of, no one on the MCU Earth other than Steve, Sam, and then the US Government/Smithsonian has any sort of claim on it or right to it.

Even if it was the original, Klaue's backstory suggests that no one else has ever stolen Vibranium and made it out alive, so even assuming that it was "stolen" is quite a stretch.

Edited by Perfect Xero
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Question: In this episode we learn that Bucky is free from his programming, but does anyone else (aside from him and the Wakandans) know? In episode 1, during the therapy session Dr. Raynor says that due to his history the government needs to know he is gonna.... 

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4 hours ago, Abra said:
  •  
  • I loved Steve Rogers too (minus Endgame Steve) but I'm tired of the pedestal he's being put on, especially by Bucky. (And I'm not sure I buy Zemo agreeing so readily that Steve wasn't corrupted by the serum, or by the power the serum gave him. That rang false to me coming from him.)

One aspect of Zemo agreeing with Bucky that Steve was the only one not corrupted by the serum is that they are also agreeing everybody else with the serum is corrupted - which includes Bucky.

It makes horrible sense that Bucky doesn't include himself in the uncorrupted - he's still bearing terrible feelings of guilt and puts Steve on that pedestal because he doesn't trust himself but did trust Steve's judgement 

For Zemo, maybe he doesn't argue the point about Steve being an exception because it's moot - Steve's dead or gone so not on Zemo's list to stop. Bucky doesn't fit into Zemo's theory of Super-soldiers as supremacists because he didn't choose to take the serum, but Zemo is agreeing that Bucky is corrupted anyway and killing him is still part of the goal to eradicate Super-soldiers.

 

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Zemo's claim was actually about people who seek to be be superhuman, which technically doesn't include Bucky because he is the one super solider who did not willingly take the serum.

As to his agreeing that Steve was not corrupted, I'm choosing to think that the guy who engineered an entire plot centered around Steve having not done the right thing with regard to telling Tony about the deaths of his parents is agreeing about Steve as a way to get Bucky to let his guard down and view him as an ally.

I think the whole exchange was Zemo manipulating Bucky. "People who seek to be superhuman are bad, but that doesn't include you because we both know you had it forced on you and, oh yeah, your buddy Steve was the one exception though, good dude, Captain America, I don't even remember what we were fighting about."

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Maybe I'm being naive, but I took Bucky's arm being removable not as a fail safe, but more as expedience - it's probably a lot more convenient to remove the arm if it needed some kind of extended maintenance or to be fixed after extreme damage than to have Bucky just sitting there attached when people just want to do their work. And I can see him not being told about its removability given all that happened in the short time (to him) that he's had it. Now, Ayo disarming (sorry, couldn't help it) him in the middle of the fight did seem like a "fuck you" moment.

Edited by Abra
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saoirse

Posts in this topic should be about the episode. If your post is not primarily about the episode, please rethink where to post it. Posts that are primarily about the Marvel movies (or that reply to such posts) will be removed and warnings may be issued. Thank you.

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