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S01.E04: The Whole World Is Watching

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1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Fixed that for you, because that's about as not complex as it gets. I sympathize with Battlestar, who died when he didn't have to, and I even sympathize with Karli, because her goals are noble even if her execution is screwed up. Walker? Not one bit. He's been fucking up since he got here, and now he's besmirched that shield he supposedly values so much. I don't care if Steve used it to kill people in the past. I doubt it was anything as brutal as what we saw in the final minutes of this episode, and I doubt it was an unarmed who begged for his life. If he gets killed before this is over, good. If Karli kills him? Even better. She specified to Sam that if she harmed him, it would be meaningless because he (currently) isn't a symbol the way Walker is, and it won't be satisfying to me if John doesn't get a major comeuppance from this. Death would be preferable, but I'll accept imprisonment.

I didn't need you to fix that for me. My point was he THINKS he's defending the honor of his friend in that moment. Obviously,  he was really out for blood. But, in his mind, it was justified.  Having Karli do the killing, Walker also killing an innocent as far as the murder went and the public spectacle added a good bit of complexity to everything.  It's easy to sit on the side and judge but in that situation, anyone could have went too far. It says a lot about Bucky and Sam that they do know how to pull back or have more control in the moment. Karli and Walker...not so much.

I'm not saying that I side with Walker or Karli in any way on this.  I do have the ability to see all sides of it though.

Edited by Racj82
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Well, we all knew that Walker was going to end up here. Both losing his shit and getting his arse handed to him. He's not a bad man, he just doesn't have the intrinsic qualities that Steve had and he's realising he cannot live up to the mantle he wears. For a guy like him, who has always been the epitome of what people think a man can be, the feelings of inadequacy must be crushing.

Zemo actually expressing the implied fascism of superheroes was fun. The idea that might is right is always the basis of the genre, and the moral complexity of when to employ that might is often ignored. Walker is the example of what happens when that might is used for purely national interests, instead of the moral good.

Seeing Lamar die and Walker have to take the serum just demonstrates how silly the idea of running around in a costume and fighting bad guys is, unless you have superpowers. Walker and Lamar were soldiers, used to fighting in a unit and using standard military tactics. Now, just because they're wearing costumes and using codenames, they get to completely ignore all that? I guess not.

I liked Zemo using kindness to get the answers that they needed, while the others just strutted around looking suspicious and asking questions. And then actually destroying the serum rather than succumbing to the temptation to take it himself. This show is really setting him up as a character with a promising future, as a villain or as an anti-hero who believes he represents the disenfranchised masses.

I liked seeing a flashback into Bucky's time in Wakanda, and them helping him sort his shit out. The Dora Milaje are so badass, and remind me a lot of the Maidens of the Spear, from the Wheel of Time series. It's nice to see more of them get individual personalities.

Bucky crying when he realised that the words didn't work any more was  powerful. After all that time, as both a conscious and unconscious prisoner to the whims of others, he finally has a real chance at being free.

And him casually enjoying Walker and Battlestar getting their arses kicked by the Dora Milaje was great fun... Until he tried to stop it and got schooled himself.

The idea of national tribalism being "a return to normalcy" is still really fucking depressing. It's funny, because most science fiction, particularly utopian, involves the idea of a single, global community under united leadership. But most of them skip the "how do we get there?" question that this show seems to be at least tiptoeing around.

I guess Walker really was representing America, finally, in that last scene.

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48 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Because heroes, especially a guy who's supposed to be the anti-John Walker and successor to Steve Rogers, shouldn't sit back and laugh their heads off just because they don't like the guy getting pummeled in front of them? 

Fair point.

But now I am wondering if the intention was to show the Dora Milaje as winning a fair fight, or going too far in pummelling somebody. They've been presented as impressive and sympathetic so far, and I'd been uncritically accepting their actions as heroic, not as bullies that need to be stopped.

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Maybe the winter soldier ended up helping Bucky cope with the serum by allowing the raging as a separate identity to Bucky? By force, he naturally can separate that aspect. Kind of like how Banner learned to control or coexist with his alter ego.

27 minutes ago, paigow said:

Was bearded Rogers unravelling...or just lighting the sex bomb fuse?

Or just his disguise. LIke Nat's blond hair and Wanda's red hair. What was Sam's?

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Bucky and Sam got involved because the fight got a little bit too stabby to be sure that Walker wouldn't get hurt.

Also, the thing with the arm...I just realised that Bucky looks so hurt about the arm not because he lost it, but because the safe guard on it showed that the Wakandans didn't trust him. Considering how insecure Bucky is about his place in the world, this must have been quite an emotional blow.

Is it just me or is Zemo the best version of Comic Lex Luther ever put in live action?

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At some point in the MCU, it seems I was not paying attention. I thought the blip halved all living things including animals, grains and veggies (food), water, forestland, etc. If that was so, you lost half your resources as well. Which is why I thought Thanos was stupid.

Is something being retconned with the flag smashers' version of things during the blip?

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5 hours ago, marceline said:

Then to have all those people come back and be displaced, hungry, and clueless about life over the last five years would be kind of a nightmare. Which leads back to the eternal dilemma of the Avengers: did they make things better or worse?

Wait I thought the people that Karli was fighting for were the people who weren't dusted. Like say after the snap you are on one side is a hostile boarder. But your side lost a ton of people and so did the other side. So then maybe the people left stop worrying about the border so much. But when everyone comes back the hostilities ramp up again and people want you to go back where you came from.

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3 hours ago, bethy said:

I really liked getting to see some of what was happening with Walker, emotionally and mentally, before he actually took the serum. Someone mentioned imposter syndrome above, and I think that was huge for him. He knew already that the awards he'd gotten were "undeserved" in some sense, and I bought that he really believed that he could do good and be good as the new CA. But the insecurities, the knowledge that he didn't have super strength like Steve, made him overcompensate in a fake it 'til you make it kind of way. I liked seeing him be open and vulnerable about that with Lemar and the fact that Lemar was all, "Hell, yeah" to taking the serum was probably the last bit of justification Walker needed to go ahead and take the serum. 

I think it was a combination of things. Imposter syndrome, definitely (I mean, who can compete with Steve Rogers?). It seems quite likely he had PTSD from his service, and given that he was also in charge, he probably had a lot more of a feeling of responsibility and survivor's guilt over anyone he wasn't able to save. (I know we don't know the details of anything that happened in his service, just that he ended up with 3 Medals of Honor, but there's no way that people he was supposed to help protect didn't die.) I can't help but think that he wondered how many more people he could help now/could have helped in the past if he'd had the serum.

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53 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

At some point in the MCU, it seems I was not paying attention. I thought the blip halved all living things including animals, grains and veggies (food), water, forestland, etc. If that was so, you lost half your resources as well. Which is why I thought Thanos was stupid.

Is something being retconned with the flag smashers' version of things during the blip?

It definitely should have halved all animal species. I can maaaaybe accept that plants didn't meet whatever definitions Thanos was using when he snapped, but then how does Marvel explain Groot being snapped?

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3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Because heroes, especially a guy who's supposed to be the anti-John Walker and successor to Steve Rogers, shouldn't sit back and laugh their heads off just because they don't like the guy getting pummeled in front of them? 

I agree with them stepping in but Walker wasn’t getting pummeled, at least not by my definition of the word. He was being humiliated. It was the superhero equivalent of the big kid holding you at arms length while you swing at air. Walker probably would have handled being pummeled better than what the Dora did. Taking the shield in particular would be a massive humiliation for Walker. 

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26 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Wait I thought the people that Karli was fighting for were the people who weren't dusted. Like say after the snap you are on one side is a hostile boarder. But your side lost a ton of people and so did the other side. So then maybe the people left stop worrying about the border so much. But when everyone comes back the hostilities ramp up again and people want you to go back where you came from.

Karli is fighting for the people who were not dusted, the people who's lives were irrevocably changed when half of the world's population vanished.  Honestly, the sheer amount of shit they went through in the last 5 years as they rebuilt the world is staggering.  And then with the rest of the world suddenly back, the world's governments expect them to just cede control of property they acquired, potential spouses, etc back to those who reappeared.  The people who lived those 5 years are now refugees living in underfunded camps.  There appears to be zero compromise happening.  It's a breeding ground for revolution.  

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36 minutes ago, Starry-Eyed said:

It definitely should have halved all animal species. I can maaaaybe accept that plants didn't meet whatever definitions Thanos was using when he snapped, but then how does Marvel explain Groot being snapped?

"All sentient life" could explain it. It covers humans and animals but not vegetation of any kind, apart from Groot and his species, who are sentient trees. Plus, there would be all the food stores that already existed, which would no longer be living things - the grain mountains and milk lakes and warehouses full of meat, that would allow for more forward planning for the reduced population.

But even if it's all life, it would take far less time for plants, particularly cultivated plants, and animals to recover than it would humans. Sensible harvesting and replanting of wheat, corn etc would probably give a huge surplus of resources within a couple of years. And breeding of domesticated animals would be far quicker than any sort of human repopulation programme, even if there was any will to have a human repopulation programme.

3 hours ago, tarotx said:

Or just his disguise. LIke Nat's blond hair and Wanda's red hair. What was Sam's?

Going off this series, apparently just not wearing his mask or wings is enough for people to not recognise Sam.

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10 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Going off this series, apparently just not wearing his mask or wings is enough for people to not recognise Sam.

People have recognized Sam (that teacher, for example) but don't really care enough to react.  Kind of like how Tony and Pepper were just hanging out in Central Park at the beginning of Infinity War and not a single bystander seemed to care.

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11 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

People have recognized Sam (that teacher, for example) but don't really care enough to react.  Kind of like how Tony and Pepper were just hanging out in Central Park at the beginning of Infinity War and not a single bystander seemed to care.

I’d assume that it’s kind of like the private life of any celebrity - unless you were a bit of an obsessive fan or it was some kind of public event, most people who spot someone famous in real life just leave them alone. Except maybe staring at them a little bit or trying to take a long distance photo. Especially in New York or other major cities. 

It seems to be kids who can’t usually keep away from the Avengers when they’re out in public, but in this episode even the kids were incredibly underwhelmed with Sam and Bucky. So maybe everyone’s now just a bit sick of them in general. Kind of like how in the US being an astronaut started out as a really cool, celebrity job where people learned all of their names and asked for autographs and then over time it became seen as just another relatively normal profession.

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28 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

"All sentient life" could explain it. It covers humans and animals but not vegetation of any kind, apart from Groot and his species, who are sentient trees. Plus, there would be all the food stores that already existed, which would no longer be living things - the grain mountains and milk lakes and warehouses full of meat, that would allow for more forward planning for the reduced population.

That's true. I don't think food access, specifically, was ever going to be one of the short-term post-Snap issues on Earth

Quote

But even if it's all life, it would take far less time for plants, particularly cultivated plants, and animals to recover than it would humans. Sensible harvesting and replanting of wheat, corn etc would probably give a huge surplus of resources within a couple of years. And breeding of domesticated animals would be far quicker than any sort of human repopulation programme, even if there was any will to have a human repopulation programme.

Really depends on the plant or animal. Crops like wheat or corn, sure those probably be fine. But if half the world's forests were snapped, that's going to take decades to even begin to recover from. Some endangered species have only a handful of members left - sometimes only one viable breeder of a gender. And of course, there are half as many pollinators now...

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11 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Russell is indeed killing it as Walker. The casting department hits it out of the park so often in the MCU. I wish the immature fans giving the actor grief would grow the hell up and learn the difference between fiction and real life. He's doing a phenomenal job and should be applauded for his performance. 

 

9 hours ago, Schweedie said:

Yeah, I second this - John Walker may be (is) a terrible Captain America, but Wyatt Russell is a great John Walker.

Because I'm a hockey fan, I have some vague recollection that Kurt Russell & family may have moved to Canada for a period of time because one of Kurt's kids was into hockey - and not just as a hobby. I don't know if that kid was Wyatt, but if so, oh how different things would be if Wyatt ended up making pro hockey his career rather than acting.

4 hours ago, MochaJay said:

I am also going to take this opportunity to defend Turkish Delight. It is one of my favourite treats to have in at Christmas. 

If people have only tried it once it twice, it can be made in many different ways. I think the authentic method is the recipe including nuts. Here in Britain we often get a mix of rose and lemon flavours. It is one of those foods actually made worse by chocolate, so if anybody has only ever gotten to try the bastardised chocolate covered crap, it tasted nothing like the sweets Zemo was offering.

I already replied upthread about how I love Turkish delight - but pretty just the pistachio ones. And yes, those are typically rose flavored. I can't recall ever seeing the lemon flavored ones, and for sure have never seen any chocolate flavored Turkish delight, which sounds gross to me...

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1 minute ago, Lebanna said:

It seems to be kids who can’t usually keep away from the Avengers when they’re out in public, but in this episode even the kids were incredibly underwhelmed with Sam and Bucky. So maybe everyone’s now just a bit sick of them in general. Kind of like how in the US being an astronaut started out as a really cool, celebrity job where people learned all of their names and asked for autographs and then over time it became seen as just another relatively normal profession.

These are unSnapped, non-American kids who are seeing Sam out of costume. The older ones would have been around five when Sam was Snapped, and he's only been back for a few months. For the two years before that, Sam was on the run doing covert missions only. He was only a high-profile Avenger between Ultron and Civil War (... a year or two of in-universe time?) I think it's very reasonable the kids didn't recognize him.

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Really good episode.  Definitely the best one so far.  I like Sam and Bucky but this episode seemed to focus on everyone but them at times and I was fine with this.

Daniel Bruhl continues to kill it as Zemo.  The appearance of the Dora Milaje and the subsequent fight was awesome.

I'll give them credit for really exploring the fallout from The Blip.  The idea of people being left behind making a new life for themselves, only for half the population to return and for everyone to be displaced is fascinating.  The Avengers left a real mess behind here and again, exploring that dynamic is fascinating.  

That said, I don't have an ounce of sympathy for Karli.  Any sympathy I had for her was gone with that bombing last episode.  She is a murderer and a terrorist and I was hoping Walker would end up killing her this episode.  She is no leader.  That said, I do think Sam's plan to talk to her was the correct course of action.  But Karli shouldn't be looked on as any kind of a hero.

I do get a hate America vibe from this show and I can't say this is the first time I've noticed this from a Marvel show.

Interesting that they said once again that Cap and company fought the Nazis in World War II?  Really, so now Cap fought Nazis in World War II?  Because Cap and apparently the Allies weren't fighting Nazis in World War II...they were fighting Hydra because of a bizarre ass decision by Disney which to this day makes no sense at all.  Cap should have been fighting Nazis in The First Avenger but that was not what Disney had him doing in that movie for some reason.

Edited by benteen
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45 minutes ago, benteen said:

Interesting that they said once again that Cap and company fought the Nazis in World War II?  Really, so now Cap fought Nazis in World War II?  Because Cap and apparently the Allies weren't fighting Nazis in World War II...they were fighting Hydra because of a bizarre ass decision by Disney which to this day makes no sense at all.  Cap should have been fighting Nazis in The First Avenger but that was not what Disney had him doing in that movie for some reason.

Cap always fought Nazi’s in WWII. Hydra was a science division of the Nazi party. 

 

1 hour ago, norcalgal said:

Interesting that they said once again that Cap and company fought the Nazis in World War II?  Really, so now Cap fought Nazis in World War II?  Because Cap and apparently the Allies weren't fighting Nazis in World War II...they were fighting Hydra because of a bizarre ass decision by Disney which to this day makes no sense at all.  Cap should have been fighting Nazis in The First Avenger but that was not what Disney had him doing in that movie for some reason.

He played professional in Europe until an injury forced him to quit. 

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So far in show, Walker has been a foil for Sam, as they were both wresting with being symbol and taking the identity of Captain America 

But now he is a super-soldier he is also placed in opposition to Bucky: Walker took the serum which magnified his internal flaws vs Bucky who had the serum forced upon him whilst being mentally broken by his captors.

Sam's journey in the show is to find his place in something larger than himself, but Bucky's journey is to heal himself and become a whole person again. And he's got his own shields so high that I frustrated because I have no idea how he is progressing with that. Maybe Walker's reaction to the serum will be the catalyst for Bucky to open up to Sam about what was done to him?

 

 

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26 minutes ago, benteen said:

So Cap didn't fight Nazis in the MCU though this show tries to convince the audience otherwise.

However, this detail is probably not in the updated Smithsonian exhibit. So the MCU population at large continues to associate HYDRA with Nazis.

Maybe Turkish Delight is the serum antidote... I have never tried it, but seems like the majority opinion is a thumbs down...

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I just noticed that right before Walker picks up the serum, he does a head tilt, much like the one Zemo was doing to Bucky earlier.  

I also noticed that Lamar said Walker always made the right decisions in the heat of battle. There are a couple things wrong with that. First is that heat of battle decisions are usually about survivability rates, not good planning. Second, what does that say about his non-heat of battle decisions? Apparently they aren't so flawless.

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4 hours ago, Dani said:

I agree with them stepping in but Walker wasn’t getting pummeled, at least not by my definition of the word. He was being humiliated. It was the superhero equivalent of the big kid holding you at arms length while you swing at air. Walker probably would have handled being pummeled better than what the Dora did. Taking the shield in particular would be a massive humiliation for Walker. 

The worst part for him, probably, was when they were like, "Leave it." That they knew they could take it any time they frigging wanted, and that they didn't consider him with the shield to be any sort of threat.

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On 4/9/2021 at 1:32 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

They would simply want to repossess it and give it to CosploayCap 2 Super-Soldier Bugaloo.

CosplayCap 2 Super-Soldier Bugaloo is the Halloween costume we all deserve.

On 4/9/2021 at 12:14 PM, magdalene said:

To me Karli is "a" bad guy because - while a a lot of her goals and ideas may be good - her methods of achieving them are not.  And threatening Sam's sister and her children proves that.  She also has a messiah complex that rubs me the wrong way.

Karli said something veeeery telling when she was with Sam.  Instead of saying "People all around the world need the cause" or "People all around the world need the Flag Smashers" she instead said "People all around the world need me."  Karli isn't above being the megalomaniac she accuses others of being.

Walker going almost full heel was so predictable that I can't even say the imagery of the shield covered in the blood of an unjustified killing was upsetting.  It was more like a "meh."  I am intrigued how the show will handle things from here though.  I can't even say I hate Walker.  I don't think he's a bad guy (at least not before this episode), just not a good guy.  And just not a guy who should have been put on the pedestal he was put on in the first place.  He reminds me of the type of guy you would know who's a friend of a friend that you only interact with a handful of times a year at birthday parties, barbeques, in the fantasy football league.  He drives an expensive car, acts self important, and, despite the fact that he's pushing 40, never misses an opportunity to tell you about his high school glory days playing football.  You put up with it because while occasionally douchey, he's relatively harmless.  He would probably sincerely want to do right as a Captain America, but you know this dude doesn't have the temperament for it.  Hell, I don't know if I know many people, myself included, who do have the temperament for it.  I like the series exploring that even if the results are unsurprising.  I feel like I would hate him more if I, for one second, thought that Marvel was really trying to pass him off as the next Cap, but this outcome was inevitable.  

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Like many, I thought this was a strong episode for Sam, showing how he was a worthy successor to Steve. One of things I like about his portrayal is that he doesn't have a magical ability to get people to do the "right" thing. But he does have a believable ability to convince people to be the best version of their self. Use that with multiple people and it becomes a powerful ability. The fact that he was unable/unwilling to do that with Walker is a tragedy.

As for Walker, he is an active duty US soldier, working under the authority of the US government who straight up murdered a man trying to surrender. He's a war criminal, no matter how the government tries to frame it.

The thing I'm interested in is the question of how the show will redeem the shield. It is now the most famous murder weapon in the world. Simply stripping it from Walker and handing it to Sam is not going to change that. Not going to be easy washing that blood off.

Edited by xaxat
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10 hours ago, bethy said:

Steve was clearly lighting the sex bomb fuse. Just another of the super serum effects, I guess. 

Well he wasn’t Captain America then so he was liberated and could occupy himself with the sex bomb fuse. But he would’ve never gone out as Cap with that stubble. Lol Clearly a sign of mental disintegration. 🙃

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On 4/9/2021 at 7:09 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Zemo screwed them over and escaped. I’m so surprised—NOT.

Agreed.  Once he had destroyed all (he thought) the extra serum, as well as the scientist who had created  it, his role was over. It's not as though he was going to take down all the super soldiers - and he even chose not to kill Karlie when he could have kept shooting her. And now the Dora Milaje were there, and Sam and Bucky couldn't have stopped them from taking him to Wakanda, so his decision to escape was understandable.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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5 hours ago, benteen said:

That said, I don't have an ounce of sympathy for Karli.  Any sympathy I had for her was gone with that bombing last episode.  She is a murderer and a terrorist and I was hoping Walker would end up killing her this episode.  She is no leader.  That said, I do think Sam's plan to talk to her was the correct course of action.  But Karli shouldn't be looked on as any kind of a hero.

And Walker should? I don't know what to do with the idea that John should be able to kill Karli without repercussions, although maybe it's not that surprising since I'm seeing people pointing out, "But Steve must have killed with the shield when he had it!" I have many issues with Steve Rogers as a character which have been documented at length, but why is Cap being invoked in this instance? He was never a murderer, for one thing, and to date he's also the sole success story when it comes to having taken the serum and mostly keeping on the right path. I feel like I missed a meeting or something.

Though now that I think of it, maybe Zemo can kill Walker instead. We actually like him, so that should be acceptable. XD

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I do get a hate America vibe from this show and I can't say this is the first time I've noticed this from a Marvel show.

Pointing out how other countries see the actions of your country is not "hating" on it, it is the most patriotic thing you can do. Because you can only improve if you actually acknowledge your flaws.

Regarding John Walker: I am not sure if he ever was a good person. He saw himself as one, and I guess one could point to his medals of honour, but at the same time, they never said for what he actually got this medals. For all we know he got them for things like shooting people who wanted to surrender peacefully, like a certain other character in the MCU. In addition, if Lemar was with him all the time in the field, why the hell doesn't he have at least one medal too?

I mean, John certainly wanted to be a good man. It was part of his self-image to think that he was. And I wouldn't say that he was necessarily a bad person, but there is a difference walking through the world with no intention to do something bad and doing so with the intention of doing something good, even if it means a sacrifice on your part.

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Am i the only one who thought the Dora Milaje were going to kill Not Cap and Lamar? That’s why Sam and Bucky intervened...literally when they are about to deliver the death stroke! 

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What an episode, this show keeps getting better and better. 

Hate Dollar Store Cap all you want (and I do), but Wyatt Russell is doing an amazing job playing Walker. I just hope he knew what to expect from the crazy ass people who can't distinguish the actor from the role when he agreed to this part. I can't believe in all of the testing Walker supposedly went through, none of it caught his obvious PTSD or mental issues with whatever it was that happened in Afghanistan. He was unraveling long before Lamar died, I think even Bucky and Sam caught that something wasn't right with him. Now his best friend is dead, he's caught on film executing someone who was helpless on the ground, and he's hopped up on serum? Not good. Even worse when Zemo gets wind that he's a super soldier.

Speaking of the serum, when are we supposed to think Walker took it? I wasn't clear on that. From Civil War, the soldiers who were given it had horrible side effects as it was taking effect. I guess Nagler could have perfected it, but I still can't figure out when Walker took it.

Bucky always breaks my heart and cracks me up. I love that he's finally getting to shine as more than just Steve's sad story best friend. 

And Sam is just wonderful. Steve knew what he was doing when he gave him the shield.

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31 minutes ago, moonorchid said:

Am i the only one who thought the Dora Milaje were going to kill Not Cap and Lamar? That’s why Sam and Bucky intervened...literally when they are about to deliver the death stroke! 

I didn’t. If the Dora Milaje wanted to kill them they would have been dead before Sam and Bucky stepping in. They were disarming (pun intended) them rather than really hurting them.  

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I don't think that they did, but it looked like they would. Like I said before, they were getting very stabby.

Something else I noticed: A lot of people noticed that the guy who was killed in the end used to be a Captain America fan. But he ALSO said in the little dialogue about it, that in the current world, Superheroes can't afford to not get their hands dirty. Guess he got his "wish". This is basically what happens in a world where people argue with the goal to justify their means, innocent people pay the price for it.

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12 hours ago, Enigma X said:

At some point in the MCU, it seems I was not paying attention. I thought the blip halved all living things including animals, grains and veggies (food), water, forestland, etc. If that was so, you lost half your resources as well. Which is why I thought Thanos was stupid.

I thought the Blip took half of "all living creatures" but everything else stayed the same. We saw in Endgame how Scott reacted after seeing birds show up at the Avengers complex. But even if it took plants and water, five years can help replace that.

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3 hours ago, xaxat said:

The thing I'm interested in is the question of how the show will redeem the shield. It is now the most famous murder weapon in the world. Simply stripping it from Walker and handing it to Sam is not going to change that. Not going to be easy washing that blood off.

The only thing that would work is if Steve Rogers himself is still alive and comes out of hibernation to hand the shield to Sam in front of an audience at a nationally televised event. Otherwise, send it back to Wakanda and let them melt it down for the railroad.

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1 hour ago, marceline said:

The only thing that would work is if Steve Rogers himself is still alive and comes out of hibernation to hand the shield to Sam in front of an audience at a nationally televised event.

The "Captain America" title would still be toxic. A more globally inclusive name and a new shield logo are needed.

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That the shield got sullied reflects more on the guy holding it than the shield itself.

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5 hours ago, emma675 said:

Speaking of the serum, when are we supposed to think Walker took it? I wasn't clear on that. From Civil War, the soldiers who were given it had horrible side effects as it was taking effect. I guess Nagler could have perfected it, but I still can't figure out when Walker took it.

After he talked to Lemar - it seemed like Walker was still on the fence until Lemar was all you bet! when asked if he would take it.

And I suppose Walker (or rather a save facing government) does have a defense when the public demands answers - he was under the influence of a foreign substance and wasn't in his right mind in the immediate aftermath of seeing his best friend killed.

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7 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

And Walker should? I don't know what to do with the idea that John should be able to kill Karli without repercussions, although maybe it's not that surprising since I'm seeing people pointing out, "But Steve must have killed with the shield when he had it!" I have many issues with Steve Rogers as a character which have been documented at length, but why is Cap being invoked in this instance? He was never a murderer, for one thing, and to date he's also the sole success story when it comes to having taken the serum and mostly keeping on the right path. I feel like I missed a meeting or something.

Though now that I think of it, maybe Zemo can kill Walker instead. We actually like him, so that should be acceptable. XD

John Walker isn't a hero.  But I wouldn't put it past this show to take the viewpoint that Karli is more noble than Walker is and they probably will.  She isn't.  Both Karli and Walker are two sides of the same coin.

7 hours ago, swanpride said:

Pointing out how other countries see the actions of your country is not "hating" on it, it is the most patriotic thing you can do. Because you can only improve if you actually acknowledge your flaws.

Which seems to be the only thing Marvel seems willing to do.

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19 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Karli is fighting for the people who were not dusted, the people who's lives were irrevocably changed when half of the world's population vanished.  Honestly, the sheer amount of shit they went through in the last 5 years as they rebuilt the world is staggering.  And then with the rest of the world suddenly back, the world's governments expect them to just cede control of property they acquired, potential spouses, etc back to those who reappeared.  The people who lived those 5 years are now refugees living in underfunded camps.  There appears to be zero compromise happening.  It's a breeding ground for revolution.  

This is one thing that I really love about this series - it's not afraid to paint all the characters in varying shades of grey so that we can at least understand the POVs and motivations of everyone and sympathize with them while still getting that they are handing things the wrong way. I have no dispute with Karli's motivations, though I highly doubt that everything is nearly as black and white as she wants to portray. She sees things the way that she does because she's from the unBlipped population, so her sympathy for those who had their lives erased for half a decade is nonexistant. She only sees the suffering off those of her social cohort.

There are a number of great fanfics that I read that delve a bit more deeply than the movies did about just what was going on during those five years; things that make a lot of sense. That with half of all life disappearing, there would have been massive food shortages because food producers and farm animals vanished. Bee colonies and fisheries that were already on the brink collapsed. Millions of children were effectively orphaned and many who were too young to fend for themselves or seek help died because the government agencies that were meant to protect them had failed. It would have taken years for the world to recalibrate for those who remained and for many, things would just have returned to some kind of normalcy at the point that the Disappeared returned. Food production would have recovered enough to accommodate the half of humans, but now had to deal with a massive population increase in a fraction of a second. Billions of people would be displaced across the board. It would have been a total shit show before the Blip and it would have been a total shit show after the Blip. Karli is not capable of seeing the suffering on all sides, which is why my sympathy for her cause is limited.

Yeah, Thanos can take his "grateful universe" conceit and shove it up his purple ass.

 

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On 4/9/2021 at 3:17 PM, swanpride said:

Honestly, I don't think that he would have gotten involved in the fight at all if not for the Dora Milaje getting a little bit too stabby during it. I also loved that Sam and Bucky were both "yeah, well Dora Milaje, don't expect to be able to defeat them even with superpowers".

Didn't Sam say "Bucky..." when it looked like Walker might be killed by the Dora Milaje, because Sam realized that they needed to get involved but that Bucky was much more likely to be successful than Sam himself?

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On 4/9/2021 at 7:35 PM, Sakura12 said:

So we have the Powerbroker (whom we haven't met yet), Karli and Captain Aggro as the bad guys for Sam and Bucky to fight. 

And I assume that Sam and Bucky will fight alongside Karli when the Power Broker comes for her.

On 4/9/2021 at 11:40 PM, Starry-Eyed said:

As satisfying as it was to watch Walker getting wailed on by the Dora Milage, that scene bothered me because the DM escalate it so unnecessarily. Okay, Walker puts a hand on you, knock it away, knock him down, aggressively enforce your boundaries and put him in his place. Great. But then with no one doing anything besides Walker's initial (not overtly threatening) shoulder-touch, the DM starts doing what look like lethal attacks if they are not repelled. Lamarr get attacked for just standing there, despite not doing ANYTHING, and when Sam and Bucky try to simply reason with the DM and prevent any fatalities, they are attacked as well. Meanwhile, Zemo, the DM's actual target, merrily slips away. I feel like the point of the scene was to make the viewer go "don't mess with the Dora Milage" but ultimately it made them seem incompetent.

Yeah, Ajo seemed to place her "honor" as a DM over her mission,  although she clearly would have had to fight Walker to get to Zemo, which would have still resulted in Sam and Bucky getting involved so that Walker wouldn't be killed.

To be clear, I don't think Sam and Bucky would have fought the DM to stop them from taking Zemo, although Sam might have been somewhat conflicted since Wakanda likely has a death penalty. 

On 4/10/2021 at 2:18 AM, swanpride said:

Regarding the Turkish delight...honestly, that actually confused me during the first watch. "The Lion, the witch and the wardrobe" is actually not a popular book in my country, hence I didn't make the connection, and they are just an odd sweet to see in Latvia, well, most European countries. I mean, they are available, but usually in shops geared towards immigrants, and it is not like Latvia has a giant community of Turkish immigrants. A typical sweet for Latvia would be "Karum" with is some sort of "Quark" based sweet. (Sorry, it is impossible to translate Quark, it is just quark). Anyway, I guess it makes sense as a reference, but it didn't make any sense in the setting. Like, at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curd_snack?wprov=sfla1

 

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2 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

To be clear, I don't think Sam and Bucky would have fought the DM to stop them from taking Zemo, although Sam might have been somewhat conflicted since Wakanda likely has a death penalty. 

Walker demanded custody of Zemo before the mission was over - Sam & Bucky were ready to fight Walker

Rather than fight an elite Wakandan kill squad, Bucky would probably ask for a Zoom call with Shuri to negotiate an extension...  

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The whole conflict between Karly and Walker kinds of reminds me of the RAF vs the German State. Kind of in the right, wrong methods. Though it is important to keep in mind that Steve and Sam never really think in politics, they always think in terms of right and wrong. Bucky understands politics, but he doesn't like it.

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16 minutes ago, paigow said:

Walker demanded custody of Zemo before the mission was over - Sam & Bucky were ready to fight Walker

Rather than fight an elite Wakandan kill squad, Bucky would probably ask for a Zoom call with Shuri to negotiate an extension...  

Right, but now Zemo's part of the mission was over.

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Bucky should have never helped Zemo escape from prison.  It was a really stupid decision.  The latter had killed a good number of people since his escape and tried to murder Karli in cold blood, because of his bigotry against enhanced people.  Yet, Sam and Bucky kept protecting him.  And many are behaving as if he is not much of a threat.  Sam and Bucky need to find that man and put him back in prison.  Meanwhile . . . 

Are we really supposed to question the moral compass of John Walker, who had killed that member of the Flag Smashers in a fit of rage over his friend's death?  Yet, we're not expected to do the same about Tony Stark's murder attempt of Bucky Barnes or Steve Rogers' fit of rage that nearly killed Tony in "Civil War"?  What happened near the end of this episode is nothing new.  Nothing new at all.

 

 

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11 hours ago, emma675 said:

Speaking of the serum, when are we supposed to think Walker took it? I wasn't clear on that. From Civil War, the soldiers who were given it had horrible side effects as it was taking effect. I guess Nagler could have perfected it, but I still can't figure out when Walker took it.

In episode three, Karli and Nico talked about taking the serum. She said, "Do you remember how scared we were when we took the serum? Felt like my veins were on fire. Prayed it'd kill me. But it was worth it, because this world is ours."

The time line in episode four is a little nebulous, but it's hard to see when Walker would have had time to take the serum and deal with those side effects.

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I liked the flashback to Bucky and Ayo in Wakanda. Good work by Sebastian Stan in that scene. 

 

What was the point of that scene?  That Bucky is more important than Sam?

 

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On 4/9/2021 at 4:42 AM, TiffanyNichelle said:

Too many episodes would turn this into The Falcon, Winter Soldier and Zemo Show. 

While I really like the element Zemo brings, yeah, too much and you’re in Itchy and Scratchy and Poochie territory. 

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saoirse

Posts in this topic should be about the episode. If your post is not primarily about the episode, please rethink where to post it. Posts that are primarily about the Marvel movies (or that reply to such posts) will be removed and warnings may be issued. Thank you.

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