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S01.E04: The Whole World Is Watching

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Walker was tweaking there when the fight started, you could see him twitching.  And I don't know if it was intentional or not, but there was a red spot on his neck, I don't know if he injected himself there, or something else.

 

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My first response after this episode completed was that “nothing important happened, and it was just action sequences”, but then I realized:

We saw Bucky’s relationship with Wakanda

Sam connected with Karli

Karli is willing to threaten innocents

Zemo really does want all the serum gone

Walker was most upset by getting beat by normal people 

Bucky believes in Sam

Sharon is actively working to feed them intel

Walker takes the serum

Walker loses it, kills someone, and is filmed

That’s a fair bit of character development. 

I was also amused that Walker needed a shave. I assumed that was showing him falling apart  

 

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Walker going psycho was predicable, that guy was one step away from losing it since he put on the costume. Steve wasn't perfect, no one is. But he was underdog that wasn't interested in a power trip. That's what made him Captain America. I guess Walker didn't study up about Wakanda and the Dora Milaje

With Karli, like Sam told her, I understand what she's fighting for but she's going about it the wrong way. She's hurting and threating innocent people and children. By fighting the bad guy that way, she's become the bad guy.

So we have the Powerbroker (whom we haven't met yet), Karli and Captain Aggro as the bad guys for Sam and Bucky to fight. 

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11 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

An aside: I first heard of Turkish Delight from reading The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. The titular witch uses it as a way to tempt one of the heroes into betraying the rest. It sounded so good reading about it as a kid, but when I actually tried it as an adult Ii was disappointed because it was NASTY (at least to me). That shiznit would not have made me betray anybody!

 

8 hours ago, Llywela said:

Whenever anyone references this, I always feel compelled to point out that a) the book is set during a period of strict wartime rationing, so the allure of sweeties would be enhanced because kids didn't get them often, and b) the Turkish Delight was enchanted, because the witch wasn't taking any chances. So the kid didn't betray everyone because of how great Turkish Delight is (it isn't). He took the first piece because he didn't get sweets often, and then betrayed everyone because he was under an enchantment.

 

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Fair enough. But what I'm saying is that if it was me, that enchantment wouldn't have been able to take hold because I would have spat that nastiness out. In fact, it probably would have backfired.

Everyone else already summed up my thoughts on this episode (and many better than I could have), so I'll just comment on the Turkish delight. I guess that's why the phrase YMMV or "different strokes for different folks" exist, because I love Turkish delight!  But I'm picky and really only like the ones with pistachio. Other nuts need not apply.

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9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think that Lamar humanized John somewhat and served as a possible check. He is more a symbol than a character, but such is life. 

Humanize, perhaps- but I kind of see him as the opposite of a check.  He says he’d take the serum, no question.  He keeps talking up John about his medals and other accomplishments.  He’s very much “you got this,” even as Walker’s behavior grows (noticeably, IMO) more erratic.  To be honest, this is why I thought last week that Lemar was the Power Broker (so much for that theory...) - because it seemed like he was subtly enabling John’s bad behavior.

Seeing the blood on the shield was a huge shock.  I assume it was practical, since it had that, well... visceral color and consistency of classic stage blood.  Either way though, kudos to the effects teams for a highly impactful image.

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3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

What it says is that if we allow science and technology to allow some people to set themselves up as special, it will inevitably lead to Hydra, Ultron, and other such problems.

There presumably would be a way to have scientific advances that do not concentrate power in the hands of an elite or that do not evoke these concerns. Most do not.

Well, again, that anti-elite message doesn't land quite as well coming from a literal baron who is staggeringly rich and (sure, it's arguably coincidental) currently happens to be aligned against the more redistributionist side of the Flag-Smashers.

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If the Flag Smashers were not enhanced humans, Zemo would more likely view them as dissidents to be suppressed - not necessarily executed without trial. Still elitist, but more pragmatic.

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16 hours ago, vb68 said:

Agreed, but I was a little shocked he didn't take it before that fight. He was itching to use it, and I have no idea how he thought he could handle trained Wakandan soldiers-he had to know who they were- without taking it. 

I am sure he has no idea what Wakanda is about. The army sent him to Afghanistan so why would he need to be briefed on Wakanda, and how women much smaller then him could kick the crap out of him.

8 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Right.  That's what I meant, at least.  I think it's obvious that Steve killed with the shield - but there were probably all faceless "bad guys" and he probably didn't do it when he clearly had the upper hand and could have just arrested the person instead.

At the beginning of Winter Soldier I doubt that anyone went back to pick up the mercenary that Steve knocked into the ocean with his shield.

3 hours ago, RedElf said:

What gives Captain America jurisdiction in Latvia?

In the last episode we saw him him get out of a GRC van with a bunch of cops, so I guess his mission is some sort of UN/Global thing.

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Great episode!  I loved Zemo's comments on Super Soldiers.  Also loved Sam telling Karli she was behaving like a supremacist.  She seemed to be processing it, like maybe considering he had a point, before Walker barged in.  

I'm about 58.3% (roughly) convinced that Sharon is the Power Broker.  Barring that, it'll be one of the following:

  1. Not revealed at all
  2. A Big Deal reveal at the end of Ep 6, either as a cliff hanger or post-credit.
  3. Shows up next episode and plays a part in the conclusion of the Flag Smashers' arc  

Kevin Feige has stated that you don't need to watch the TV shows for the movies to make sense, so I doubt it's (2).  It'd be really bad writing to reveal the Power Broker in ep 5 -- that's like having a character introduced in the last 20 pages of a whodunnit turn out to be the murderer.  

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

In fact, it strikes me that Zemo would not/should not have conceded that Cap was pure good. Instead of "Touche," he should have said, "It was just a matter of time before even the noble Steve Rogers abused his abilities. Power corrupts. There is no getting around it."

The show is going for the Robert Carrow angle on power:

What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do.

That's basically a paraphrase of what Erskine said.  

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3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

It all depends on the person behind the weapon. Bucky and Wanda in particular have terrible histories of misusing their powers, and it doesn't really matter if Barnes had free will when you remember how many people are dead because of the Winter Soldier.

It matters a lot if Bucky had free will. Bucky wasn’t the person behind the weapon. He was the weapon. 

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23 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I am sure he has no idea what Wakanda is about. The army sent him to Afghanistan so why would he need to be briefed on Wakanda, and how women much smaller then him could kick the crap out of him.

Well for this current mission, I'd argue he should had done some homework on both Bucky and Zemo where Wakanda would come up pretty easily.

Edited by vb68

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3 minutes ago, vb68 said:

Well for this current mission, I'd argue he should had done some homework on both Bucky and Zemo where Wakanda would come up pretty easily.

Is it common knowledge that Bucky was hiding out in Wakanda or do people think that he was just on the run with Cap, Sam and Natasha?

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8 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Is it common knowledge that Bucky was hiding out in Wakanda or do people think that he was just on the run with Cap, Sam and Natasha?

Who knows but it is common knowledge Zemo framed Bucky for the murder of King T’Chaka.  Besides Walker should know way more than what is it common knowledge. The Dora Milaje taking an interest in Zemo escaping shouldn’t have come as a surprise.

Edited by Dani
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First to the poster who asked about how the shield got repaired....they never explained it in Endgame but I always figured T'chala had Shuri repair it.

And as for Walker doesnt the Sokovia Accords still exist right? That means that the U.N. will be demanding he step down. If he doesn't he might be facing a very pissed off War Machine.

I'd love to see how the other superheroes reacted to seeing the footage (they'res no way Peter Parker watched that without throwing up)

 Walker better be grateful that Tony's dead and Wanda's off the grid. Just imagine their reaction

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11 hours ago, steelyis said:

I love the inherent darkness of the scene. With Zemo singing and luring the kids over with candy, the only thing missing was a nasty, rusted-out van with its windows spray painted black.

This completely reminded me of the Child Catcher in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, one of the creepiest, most disturbing characters in a children’s movie ever. 
 

And co-sign on the traumatic disappointment with Turkish Delight after finding out what it looked and tasted like. I mean, if it’s worth selling out your family for, a candy shouldn’t be THAT. 
 

I wonder if the killing with the shield was meant to mirror the fight between Cap and Tony where Steve raised it in a very similar motion and Tony threw up his arms, clearly expecting Steve to bring it down on his head. But Steve disabled the thingy in Tony’s chest. That was what I thought of at that moment. 
 

Awesome Bucky moments; awesome Sam moments; awesome Sam and Bucky moments. I can’t WAIT for them to get shield.

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1 hour ago, mac123x said:

The show is going for the Robert Carrow angle on power:

 

Quote

What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do.

 

That's basically a paraphrase of what Erskine said.  

One of my favorite Star Trek episodes is “The Measure of a Man,” where Data’s rights as a being are put on trial.  During the review on the incomparable Mission Log podcast, one of the hosts suggest that it was not actually Data being judged in that story- but Starfleet’s (and by extension our) capacity to treat others with respect and empathy. He points out several possible sources for the title, including: for Plato, the measure of a man is “what he does with power.”  In a quote attributed to Samuel Johnson, it’s “how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good.”

By any definition, it feels like John Walker has failed to measure up here.

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16 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Supersoldiers, as we see with everyone except Steve, don’t naturally tend towards sweetness and light. I adore how they are pointing these things out.

I think that Bucky needs an asterisk next to his name. He was brainwashed and tortured and didn’t know who he was or what he was doing. When Robert Redford had his memory wiped, that shit looked painful. Had he been given the serum as James Buchanan Barnes, I don’t think he would’ve gone all crazy, as evidenced by his rehabilitation from the winter soldier.

Of course, part of that was his love for Steve...

All I kept thinking after Lemar died was that when Steve thought Bucky was dead, he didn’t go on a warpath, he tried to get drunk. Poor Lemar, I liked him. I think even he was beginning to see that Walker was beginning to come a little loose.

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As satisfying as it was to watch Walker getting wailed on by the Dora Milage, that scene bothered me because the DM escalate it so unnecessarily. Okay, Walker puts a hand on you, knock it away, knock him down, aggressively enforce your boundaries and put him in his place. Great. But then with no one doing anything besides Walker's initial (not overtly threatening) shoulder-touch, the DM starts doing what look like lethal attacks if they are not repelled. Lamarr get attacked for just standing there, despite not doing ANYTHING, and when Sam and Bucky try to simply reason with the DM and prevent any fatalities, they are attacked as well. Meanwhile, Zemo, the DM's actual target, merrily slips away. I feel like the point of the scene was to make the viewer go "don't mess with the Dora Milage" but ultimately it made them seem incompetent.

 

While the shades of grey can still make her interesting, to me, Karli has been irredeemable ever since she blew up a building with captives tied up inside. Given that, I find it hard to believe she's really that broken up about killing someone she was fighting. What I find REALLY telling is that she was standing in the crowd during Walker's execution of her friend. In other words, she was close enough to hear him bellowing "WHERE IS SHE?" at him, was close enough to see that Walker was going to kill him for not telling, and chose to protect herself by staying in the crowd rather than protect her friend.

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53 minutes ago, madhacker said:

First to the poster who asked about how the shield got repaired....they never explained it in Endgame but I always figured T'chala had Shuri repair it.

And as for Walker doesnt the Sokovia Accords still exist right? That means that the U.N. will be demanding he step down. If he doesn't he might be facing a very pissed off War Machine.

I'd love to see how the other superheroes reacted to seeing the footage (they'res no way Peter Parker watched that without throwing up)

 Walker better be grateful that Tony's dead and Wanda's off the grid. Just imagine their reaction

They did not explicitly say about the shield, but the implication was that Old Man Cap brought back a version of the shield from the timeline he had been living in with Peggy. This was foreshadowed in how Thor (and then Cap) got to wield destroyed Mjolnir.  Thanos pretty much left the original shield beyond repair. I suppose it's possible that T'Challa or Shuri decided to recreate or repair his original shield, but considering that they gave him the bracers they did in Infinity War, it seems like the alt-time line is the more plausible explanation. 

In terms of the Sokovia Accords, it has always seemed at least somewhat ambiguous how they operated. But it seems to me that Walker has been operating under the auspices of the Global Repatriation Council and/or the American government, which the Sokovia Accords at least theoretically allow. The point of them was that enhanced people had to be answerable to some external check. 

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Last week's episode was a little slow, so I'm glad things picked up again this ep.

Even the closing credits let you know that s*** just got real. I also particularly liked how the Civil War theme is used in a slower, more sinister way to show Walker's descent into darkness.

The ambiguity level of the morals at play here is really impressive. I knew that this show had to play by a different set of rules now that America's changed (perhaps even more so since The Winter Soldier), but damn, the way Karli is portrayed, the way Walker is kinda-but-not-really a bad guy/loose cannon, it's really engaging stuff here.

The story beats so far are kinda predictable, but it's not a major flaw, and I'm kinda used to predictability/studio playing safe ever since WandaVision's ending anyway. I do feel that this series is more effective when viewed in one shot though, instead of having the momentum slowed and even dying out while we wait for the next episode.

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2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Is it common knowledge that Bucky was hiding out in Wakanda or do people think that he was just on the run with Cap, Sam and Natasha?

It's a good question.  My assumption from the way his therapist talked before was that it was fairly common knowledge within the military at the very least. After all Bucky was pardoned. I think all the background and details on that would be available to Walker in his elevated position.

Edited by vb68

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3 hours ago, norcalgal said:

Everyone else already summed up my thoughts on this episode (and many better than I could have), so I'll just comment on the Turkish delight. I guess that's why the phrase YMMV or "different strokes for different folks" exist, because I love Turkish delight!  But I'm picky and really only like the ones with pistachio. Other nuts need not apply.

Well, now at least we know who to keep an eye on when we are worried about getting stabbed in the back! 🙂

2 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

Humanize, perhaps- but I kind of see him as the opposite of a check.  He says he’d take the serum, no question.  He keeps talking up John about his medals and other accomplishments.  He’s very much “you got this,” even as Walker’s behavior grows (noticeably, IMO) more erratic.  To be honest, this is why I thought last week that Lemar was the Power Broker (so much for that theory...) - because it seemed like he was subtly enabling John’s bad behavior.

Seeing the blood on the shield was a huge shock.  I assume it was practical, since it had that, well... visceral color and consistency of classic stage blood.  Either way though, kudos to the effects teams for a highly impactful image.

Lamar caused him to check his insecurities and to consider alternatives. If Walker was left to his own devices, he would have not let Sam attempt to talk Karli down and would have intervened much sooner. He would have probably had thrown down with Sam or Bucky. 

2 hours ago, arc said:

Well, again, that anti-elite message doesn't land quite as well coming from a literal baron who is staggeringly rich and (sure, it's arguably coincidental) currently happens to be aligned against the more redistributionist side of the Flag-Smashers.

We're talking different types of elite. There's no reason to not take Zemo at his word that he is against people setting themselves above people as gods. Royalty <>godhood. And even if we are to chalk Zemo up as somewhat of a hypocrite, that doesn't make him wrong. 

1 hour ago, mac123x said:

I'm about 58.3% (roughly) convinced that Sharon is the Power Broker.  Barring that, it'll be one of the following:

  1. Not revealed at all
  2. A Big Deal reveal at the end of Ep 6, either as a cliff hanger or post-credit.
  3. Shows up next episode and plays a part in the conclusion of the Flag Smashers' arc  

I've pretty much given up trying to predict what will happen in these shows after the rollercoaster ride that was WandaVision.

But I do think that Sharon either being the Power Broker or working for him doesn't seem to make that much sense. 

What do we know about the Power Broker? 

PB controls a bunch of people and well, power.

PB had that scientist create SSS TNG

PB had SSS TNG stolen and knows that Carli took it

PB has threatened Carli and sent people after her.

Given this, Sharon's actions don't really make sense if she's also the PB or his employee. Why would she give Our Heroes and Zemo the lead to find Nagel in the first place when it would clearly be in PB's interest for them to never find Nagel? Why would she help them escape after Zemo kills Nagel? Why let Zemo live after he killed Nagel, something Sharon knows? Why would she tell Sam and Bucky that Walker is about to attack the Flag Smashers, for example? Why not tell the PB's men and get them to attack the Flag Smashers?

Now I could be wrong and the writers may have either ways of answering these questions satisfactorily or they may just want to go for the twist without caring too much if the twist makes sense. We'll see. 

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Poor Bucky was unarmed, disarmed, unhanded and manhandled in the space of seconds. I love him to death but I chortled.

10 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Sebastian Stan's performance in this entire episode was outstanding.

I have said it before about this guy's talent: Sebastian Stan puts in WORK. The man's a beast. He was on fire in that opening scene, good gawd. Between this and him doing all his knife stunts himself, I'm thoroughly impressed. I hope he has a long and rewarding career. And I'd love to see him and Karl Urban play angry brothers in something.

Daniel Bruhl is also doing a fantastic job, given that viewers are now tickled by Zemo and find him adorable, even though the very first thing he did, when Bucky approached him at the jail, was try to reactivate the Winter Soldier for shits and giggles. His hilariousness has eclipsed the fact that he's actually a very dangerous man. I'm sure we haven't seen the last of him, and I'm certain he isn't to be trusted. But I do appreciate that he's a man who keeps to his principles, dubious as they may be. He didn't even attempt to consume any of the serum, he just wanted it gone. 

Walker slowly but visibly losing it after Lamar's death gave me shades of Daenerys Targaryen going apeshit after Missandei's death on Game of Thrones. In both cases, this loss of their bestie/moral compass is what finally pushes an all-powerful psychopath off the deep end, public relations be damned. That last tether of virtue is just ripped to shreds. Knowing Walker's corny ass he was probably screaming 'dracarys' in his head.

I agree with whoever it was upthread that thought it ridiculous that Zemo was able to slip away from the Dora Milaje. There's no way they shouldn't have immediately had one warrior snatch him up while the others made (very) short work of NotMyCap. As much as I loved the hysterical ass kicking, Zemo getting away was sloppy.

I did have to laugh at Walker thinking he could impress Ayo by identifying himself. First of all, she has eyes, she can see that you're Captain America. Secondly, this is the woman who said 'Move or you will be moved' to Natasha Romanov. She is NOT impressed by Avengers. The blank stare on her face afterwards was priceless.

Sam continues to prove that Steve knew damn well what he was doing when he gave him the shield.

Edited by LaJefaza
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1 hour ago, Starry-Eyed said:

As satisfying as it was to watch Walker getting wailed on by the Dora Milage, that scene bothered me because the DM escalate it so unnecessarily. Okay, Walker puts a hand on you, knock it away, knock him down, aggressively enforce your boundaries and put him in his place. Great. But then with no one doing anything besides Walker's initial (not overtly threatening) shoulder-touch, the DM starts doing what look like lethal attacks if they are not repelled. Lamarr get attacked for just standing there, despite not doing ANYTHING, and when Sam and Bucky try to simply reason with the DM and prevent any fatalities, they are attacked as well. Meanwhile, Zemo, the DM's actual target, merrily slips away. I feel like the point of the scene was to make the viewer go "don't mess with the Dora Milage" but ultimately it made them seem incompetent.

That’s pretty consistent with the Dora Milaje. They are in-your-face aggressive. Although the attacks weren’t lethal because they weren’t trying to kill anyone. I thought that was part of the point of the fights in this episode. With Sam, Bucky and the Dora Milaje you see power and skill controlled and tempered to fit the opponent. No one died because none of them were trying to kill anyone. That contrasts with Karlie and Walker who both lost control.

16 hours ago, tv echo said:

Bucky: "Maybe you're wrong, Zemo. The serum never corrupted Steve."

Zemo: "Touché. But there has never been another Steve Rogers, has there?"

Foreshadowing John Walker's character journey toward corruption?

I thought they were also alluding to Isaiah Bradley with Sam’s reaction to that line. 

Edited by Dani
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Man, I have been following Sebastian Stan since his time as the Mad Hatter on Once Upon a Time.  He's an amazingly compelling actor (and beautiful), and that cold open once again showed how much.  I loved that Ayo was his support and he trusted her and Shuri enough to try the words.  Sebastian conveyed Bucky's terror at turning again and seeing moments of the things he has done, and then when the code didn't work....the sheer, heartbreaking relief after 70 yrs.  I got choked up too.  So much, in so little. 

He also had some really excellent lines this episode "looking strong, John" took me out in giggles.  I have seen moments here and there, but I really like Bucky's sardonic sense of humor that we see even more clearly in this series. 

Only a badass chick like Ayo (and a badass actress like Florence Kasumba) can say something like "The Dora Milaje have jurisdiction wherever the Dora Milaje find themselves to be" and you kind of just nod your head to the obvious fact.  I was cheering LOUDLY.  It is unfortunate that this mess has earned rift between Ayo (and presumably, the Wakandans) and Bucky.  I LOVE that he learned some Xhosa in his time there. So cool, and feels so in character for Bucky.  The arm thing was a shock to everyone...but the clever Wakandans. I loved seeing the Dora fight, and their whole purpose around loyalty to the T'Chaka.  Like many of you, it makes me think of Chadwick and makes me quite sad. I am so excited for BP 2, but my heart will be so heavy. 

While I thought early on, Bucky would steal the episode, Sam (and Anthony Mackie's natural trusting demeanor) really shone with his talk with Karli (before it all went directly to hell) and his convo with his sister.  I love Sam's humanity, and can easily see why Steve would thing he would be right for the Cap mantel.  This series has really done a service to the strength of character of each man, and yet make a clear case that they could have a unique, robust friendship if they learn to work together (like we see this week).  Steve didn't pick arbitrarily....he picked good men to be his besties. 

Man, John Walker...a The Boys-esque quality to his Cap is unnerving, yet like that show, rings painfully more accurate than inherently good men like Steve Rogers. His natural insecurity coupled with his need to be seen with that serum is a dangerous combo.  Plus, with Battlestar taken out (Walker's own Jimney Cricket), you knew where it was going, and while Steve Rogers may have killed people with the shield, I can't imagine it was ever like that. I am taken back to the scene toward the end of Civil War when Tony is on the ground looking at Steve in terror as it looks like Cap is going to bring the shield down on Tony's head (after the brutal fight and ripping Bucky's arm off), and Steve made a choice to dismantle the suit and stop the fight instead.  That is the difference.  Those moments of decision of doing what is right versus what is easy because you can.  Walker isn't that guy, as we just saw. And that cell footage from multiple angles and the blood on the shield were brutal visuals.  I hate this guy, but I have to give it up for the sheer range we are getting from Wyatt Russell....you see so many moments from him. 

I don't have a lot of opinions on the Flag Smashers.  While I get it, and Karli isn't wrong, per say, I agree that the execution is tough for me to get behind.  The casual nature of "let's just kill it dead to make our point" doesn't feel like a long term successful strategy. 

Daniel Bruhl is another one of those actors that just compels you to watch what he is doing.  I am loving this Zemo b/c he's magnetic, interesting, smart, charming, but you know he isn't the good guy.  That Pied Piper scene with the kids underscored that...it was deeply creepy and played so straight. Like those kids, I think Zemo is playing us (and the boys); casting Daniel Bruhl is really smart and Civil War wasted him a bit, IMO, b/c of Daniel's nature charm.  His little escape cracked me up, but I hope he gets caught.

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Well, that escalated quickly! 

**poor Lamar/Battlestar. I loved his little remark about how he has a little battlestar to draw if people want to ask him for his autograph. *He* would've made a better CA than Walker. He deserved better but at least it was really quick. I think he'd hate how Walker 'avenged' him though. And he was probably the last tether keeping Walker in line at all. You could see how shocked Karli was--she was just reacting--when Lamar died. She was fighting Falcon, a hopped-up Captain America and the Winter Soldier--it's easy to forget there was an actual non-enhanced (either in body or uniform) regular human there who can easily be hurt and killed. Everyone came to a dead stop. 

**Walker already had some issues and ptsd--at least based on some of the undercurrents of his conversation with Lamar based on what they did to get those medals. (Though I STILL have an easier time believing in aliens, androids and gods than in thinking someone of Walker's age, time of service, the conflicts he fought in--he only mentioned Afghanistan, and the fact that he's ALIVE than the fact that he has THREE MOHs. Only one person even has two. And most people who are awarded *one* are usually dead because the level of bravery usually demands the ultimate sacrifice. I just can't get over it. I wish they'd just said one MOH. It's not like that isn't 'good enough'. *end of rant*) So I'm reminded about Erskine's lines about the serum amplifying everything inside. (As well as his comments about strong men losing respect for their power while weak ones know compassion.) He's already unstable though functional for 'regular' life--but in the position he's in and now hopped up on the serum? Yeah, no. That's going to go badly. And it can be seen with Karli too--her desire for what she considers justice and her increasing radicalism in how it's achieved is just going to keep getting ramped up. As even Zemo had to agree--there's only been one Steve Rogers and his remaining uncorrupted. Erskine chose well. Plus, despite what Nagel said, there's only been one true success--Steve. Every other serum has had flaws--it's either been less powerful or it's gone really, really bad. I don't know if they'll go back to Isaiah but, comics wise, it was a very bad situation for him--and he was also the only survivor of the group it was tested on. We all know how Bruce turned out. 

**I can't help it. I love Zemo. Or maybe it's just Daniel Bruhl's portrayal of him. But I just get a kick out of him and his semi-flirtatious nature with Bucky. He did it with Steve too (the comment about being up close and seeing the little bit of green in the blue of his eyes). For someone who hates super soldiers he does sure like to flirt with them! You can just see Bruhl having a blast with this. When he was pulling the moves with the kids and the candy I was like 'once again, don't forget this guy was Sokovian Special Forces.' He knows Psy Ops, people! Don't let your guard down around him. Ayo certainly didn't! 

**speaking of Ayo. Loved the flashback to Wakanda and her calling Bucky 'White Wolf'. I wonder if he'll start to feel a pull between his identities? He's not really anyone right now. He'll never be the pre-war Bucky Barnes. He doesn't want to be the Winter Soldier (at least unless he reclaims it and flips it maybe). And he's not really the White Wolf. Who is he going to wind up being? It's intriguing (to me at least), more so than Sam's journey because we know he's going to end up Captain America. His is more in *how* than in *who*. And don't mess with the Dora Milaje. Keep your hands to yourself Walker. I knew she was going to beat his ass down when he put his hand on her shoulder. It's like, read the room, dude. She's is NOT putting out welcoming, kumbaya vibes. Zemo killed her king and she's here for him. Period. As she says, 'move or be moved'. That's sort of their philosophy. lol Unless she was snapped, she's had 7 years to brood (2 if she was snapped) about her failure (as she called it) in protecting T'chaka in Vienna. She is not trifling around. Loved the look on Bucky's face when his arm just shut down and fell off. Bucky should just pull a Steve (Mr Peggy Carter) and chuck the superhero business, go back to his hut in Wakanda and settle down with Ayo--he can be the househusband tending sheep while she's out kicking ass and taking names. Then she can come home and they can train with each other for fun. He's 106 and his life has sucked since 1945--just let the man go have some peace. 

**My girls swear Sharon is the Power Broker but I said 'nope'. She was snapped so could she really have built up a rep/business in the two years she was on the run and then just swoop back into it after 5 years of being gone? I don't think so. But she's playing some angle/agenda. 

**Loving Steve Rogers the way I do, it was actually stomach turning to see *his* shield dripping with blood. Steve killed people out of necessity but he also just disabled them when he could. He didn't even use a gun outside of WW2 (except for when he had to pick one up to return fire in Avengers). His primary weapon apart from the shield was hand to hand combat. (One wiki 'kill count' put him at 151 but 105 of them were Nazis, aliens or drones. Plus they counted everyone he ever hit with the shield as a death which I doubt they were. He was a solider but he was no ruthless killer and he certainly had the physical power to be.) That guy was unarmed. Yes, he was a 'bad guy' in terms of their pursuit but he didn't kill Lemar and it was just cold blooded murder. And a vicious one at that. Pure bloody overkill. So that last sight of the shield was stomach turning. Even Walker looked taken aback but I don't know how it'll affect him. There is one shot in one of the trailers of him (?) bent over the ground, upset. But it may just be about Lamar and not about the guy he just killed. Regardless, he is unraveling and it's happening FAST. It's sad too. Yes, he's no Steve Rogers. No, he shouldn't have taken on the mantle (though it's doubtful he knew about Sam or anything). Yes, he can be a bit of a douche. But he's not an evil guy. But it's going to end up really badly for him one way or the other. He's either going to end up dead or institutionalized or something. But there's no happy ending here that I can see. They may even incorporate some of the physically, emotionally and mentally degrading effects of the serum on certain subjects that are found in the comics Isaiah Bradley story. 

**I could get what Karli was saying and that's what makes this an intriguing story line. We've seen the 'bad side' of the blip. People lost their whole families (Clint), loved ones (Scott), died alone (Maria Rambeau). Just lived with the knowledge that their loved ones were 'gone' but didn't know if they were dead, would come back (which they did). How many people committed suicide because of their losses? How many people died because some brilliant surgeon was snapped? And I'm sure there were PLENTY of people who weren't all altruistic about resources. The black markets probably thrived in the chaos. Human greed doesn't disappear. But there were also obviously 'good' things that would happen. Abusive partners may have been snapped--and are now back. We've seen how Karli and how group think things were better off. Even Steve made the rueful comment about the water being cleaner and seeing whales as he drove to the compound. So it's not like it was 100% a good thing or bad thing--it was just a cataclysmic event which shook not just Earth but the whole universe. And now people have to live with the fallout of both the blip and the return. I've seen some people argue that it was TONY who was ultimately selfish because they could've just undone it--put things right back to the way they were--but he didn't want to lose Morgan. He liked the way his life was after the Snap and was willing to 'fix' it but not reverse it. The world could've avoided the resulting chaos. But there was never going to be a perfect solution. 

Edited by Afwife1992
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2 hours ago, rwlevin said:

Had he been given the serum as James Buchanan Barnes, I don’t think he would’ve gone all crazy, as evidenced by his rehabilitation from the winter soldier.

For the record, he had been given the Serum as James Buchanan Barnes. He already got some of it when Steve rescued him from Zola. I always wondered, if he realised that he was enhanced and never told Steve for some reason, or if he didn't realise because, well, it's not like he was a weakling beforehand and he was mostly a sharp-shooter during the war. Though naturally Bucky got a "weaker" version, hence he never was quite as powerful as Steve or the others who got it. But he is, for all sense and purposes, a supersoldier, too.

And blaming him for anything he did as Winter Soldier is ridiculous. While it is in real live pretty much impossible to force someone into doing something against your own moral compass (take hypnosis, you can convince someone to do a funny dance, but you can't convince the same person to murder someone, it just doesn't work), in the MCU it has been established that you can control people to this level. And Bucky was pretty much the main guinea pig for those techniques.

Also, it is most likely a very good thing that Zemo is dead set against taking the serum. I shudder to think what would become of him if he did.

 

Regarding the Turkish delight...honestly, that actually confused me during the first watch. "The Lion, the witch and the wardrobe" is actually not a popular book in my country, hence I didn't make the connection, and they are just an odd sweet to see in Latvia, well, most European countries. I mean, they are available, but usually in shops geared towards immigrants, and it is not like Latvia has a giant community of Turkish immigrants. A typical sweet for Latvia would be "Karum" with is some sort of "Quark" based sweet. (Sorry, it is impossible to translate Quark, it is just quark). Anyway, I guess it makes sense as a reference, but it didn't make any sense in the setting. Like, at all.

 

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A really, really amazing extension to the scene in the beginning, which also points out some call-backs I have missed.

There were a lot of those in this episode btw. For example when Sam says that Carly is "Just a kid", that's basically what Steve said about Wanda.

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Ah, my wish to see Captain America, Fuck Yeah! humbled by Ayo was granted! Thanks, MCU!

Yes, the Dora Milaje were being overly aggressive, but to be fair they were trying to recapture the escaped criminal who murdered their king, and Walker really should have checked his ego and condescension at the door when dealing with them. He had neither the moral high ground nor the tactical advantage in that situation, but acted as if he possessed both.

Sam was just wonderful in this episode, so much so it made up for the whiny incompetence they wrote him with last week.

18 hours ago, steelyis said:

I wish someone had done more than tell walker not to mess with Dora Milaje. Someone should have told him even with the serum he probably wouldn't have won that fight. The Dora are, in every canon, the most well-trained fighters in the world.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't three of the Dora Milaje immobilize Killmonger while he was both enhanced by the heart-shaped herb AND wearing one of the protective vibranium suits Shuri designed? Whatever training program they go through should never be underestimated.

15 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Speaking of T'Challa, in Civil War when he's fighting Captain America during the airport scene, he scratches his vibranium claws on Cap's shield and you can see the damage to the shield from the claw marks. Flash forward to the Ayo/Walker fight: Wakandan spears are vibranium tipped, yet there was no visible damage to the shield. I'm pretty sure we have confirmation that this shield is adamantium.

I think those scratches were just on the paint/enamel the shield was colored with. If the shield could take solid hits from Thor's hammer without caving in, I doubt T'Challa is strong enough to really damage it even with vibranium claws. It's probably just that those spears have a larger contact surface and less force behind them, so no visible scratches.

 

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4 hours ago, TrininisaScorp said:

I hate this guy, but I have to give it up for the sheer range we are getting from Wyatt Russell....you see so many moments from him. 

Russell is indeed killing it as Walker. The casting department hits it out of the park so often in the MCU. I wish the immature fans giving the actor grief would grow the hell up and learn the difference between fiction and real life. He's doing a phenomenal job and should be applauded for his performance. 

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1 hour ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Russell is indeed killing it as Walker. The casting department hits it out of the park so often in the MCU. I wish the immature fans giving the actor grief would grow the hell up and learn the difference between fiction and real life. He's doing a phenomenal job and should be applauded for his performance. 

Yeah, I second this - John Walker may be (is) a terrible Captain America, but Wyatt Russell is a great John Walker.

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7 hours ago, Starry-Eyed said:

satisfying as it was to watch Walker getting wailed on by the Dora Milage, that scene bothered me because the DM escalate it so unnecessarily. Okay, Walker puts a hand on you, knock it away, knock him down, aggressively enforce your boundaries and put him in his place. Great. But then with no one doing anything besides Walker's initial (not overtly threatening) shoulder-touch, the DM starts doing what look like lethal attacks if they are not repelled. Lamarr get attacked for just standing there, despite not doing ANYTHING, and when Sam and Bucky try to simply reason with the DM and prevent any fatalities, they are attacked as well. Meanwhile, Zemo, the DM's actual target, merrily slips away. I feel like the point of the scene was to make the viewer go "don't mess with the Dora Milage" but ultimately it made them seem incompetent.

They come from a society where if you want to be the king, you have to fight the king possibly to the death. If really isn't much of a surprise that kicking ass is a general response to things.

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23 hours ago, Vanderboom said:

I'm with you on all of this. I like how "would you take the serum" is now a morality test.

Same thing happens in Lord of the Rings:  Frodo tries to give the ring to someone "better".  Gandalf wants no part of it.  Galadriel practically hides under a rock to avoid it, and expresses great relief when she realizes she really has been strong enough to turn it down. 

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So much to unpack in this episode.

The scene with Ayo and Bucky by the fire and his reaction when he realized he was finally free left a knot in my throat. Sebastian Stan acted the hell out of that. A white man being freed from bondage to his country by a Black woman in an always free and advanced Wakanda spoke volumes to me.

I understand the Flag Smashers a little better now. Avengers: Endgame made us think that the Blip had been abject misery but the idea of people being free to move and rebuild, a world where suddenly there's enough food for everyone, and whales swim in the Hudson River sounded good to me.  Then to have all those people come back and be displaced, hungry, and clueless about life over the last five years would be kind of a nightmare. Which leads back to the eternal dilemma of the Avengers: did they make things better or worse?

The Dora Milaje fight was epic and the whole time I was yelling at Walker and Bucky "Guys, y'all can't win this fight. That Vibranium arm and Vibranium shield are no match for soldiers who have lived with Vibranium their whole lives. That shield y'all love so much? In Wakanda it's a child's toy called a 'frisbee.' " 

Edited by marceline
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39 minutes ago, marceline said:

I understand the Flag Smashers a little better now. Avengers: Endgame made us think that the Blip had been abject misery but the idea of people being free to move and rebuild, a world where suddenly there's enough food for everyone, and whales swim in the Hudson River sounded good to me.  Then to have all those people come back and be displaced, hungry, and clueless about life over the last five years would be kind of a nightmare. Which leads back to the eternal dilemma of the Avengers: did they make things better or worse?

That utopia that the Flag Smashers loved came at the cost of millions of innocent people and the grief of their loved ones, but I get what you’re saying. As the saying goes, there’s no such thing as a free lunch.

I do wonder if the Avengers could have been more selective in the ones they brought back—bring back all the people who were good and leave the evil and corrupt assholes dusted.

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6 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

That utopia that the Flag Smashers loved came at the cost of millions of innocent people and the grief of their loved ones, but I get what you’re saying. As the saying goes, there’s no such thing as a free lunch.

Sam said it plain in Ep 1.

"Every time something gets better for one group, it gets worse for another."

7 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I do wonder if the Avengers could have been more selective in the ones they brought back—bring back all the people who were good and leave the evil and corrupt assholes dusted.

It was all or nothing.

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Really bummed Battlestar was killed. Prior to this episode I had hoped he'd stick around as a supporting character, maybe in Rhodey's show or as part of Sword eventually. But my husband and I watched this episode with the sense that SOMEONE was going to die by the end and he seemed the logical choice. 

I would like more scenes with Sharon. It feels like there should be more to her story than what we've gotten. I have seen some speculation that they had to change the plot upon reshoots because originally there was something about a virus included so maybe her story was more tied to that and suffered as a result. 

I'm loving Zemo and glad they're setting him up to continue in the MCU. I didn't see his scenes with the kids as too sinister. I saw it as someone who, having been a father, was more successful at knowing how to get the kids to approach him and give him info. Creepy and manipulative for sure, but no pedo vibes.  Sam and Bucky just charging in and asking questions got them nowhere. It was his experience with children previously that made the difference. 

I really don't know how they're going to wrap this up in 2 episodes. Karli and what's left of the Flag Smashers need to be dealt with, Walker has lost his mind, and we haven't even SEEN Power Broker yet (that we know of). I'd also hoped they'd circle back to Isaiah Bradley more. I'm starting to think we may not see Power Broker at all. 

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6 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I do wonder if the Avengers could have been more selective in the ones they brought back—bring back all the people who were good and leave the evil and corrupt assholes dusted.

I think the strength of will - to formulate and hold such a complex thought while making the snap - would have been completely beyond Banner's ability. Evil and corrupt according to whose standards? Banner's? The Stones themselves, if they have a sense of morality? Does it take into account people's thoughts and intentions or only their actions? I think trying to do something like that (bring back all the non-evil people) could have very likely resulted in bringing back no one at all.

I can sympathize with the Flag Smashers a little, but they seem to be acting like they have a "right" to these resources, homes, opportunities, etc. that they only had in the first place because millions of people were displaced. Someone upthread compared the Blip victims to Jewish people after the Holocaust, and I think there's some validity to that. My sympathies are with the people trying to regain everything they lost in an instant through no fault of their own.

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Whew - I'm tired of Dollar Store Cap. 

I liked the flashback to Bucky and Ayo in Wakanda. Good work by Sebastian Stan in that scene. Also, I did not know I needed a scene of Ayo and Bucky going toe-to-toe. I'm thinking the Dora Milaje might need their own series.

Good episode for Sam. I liked his talk with Karli. 

Xemo slipping out while the Doras fought everyone else was amusing. 

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I agree with above comments that Sharon being the Power Broker doesn't make sense. I would add that it doesn't make sense regardless of whether or not she was Snapped.

Snapped - Sharon was listed among the Snapped in the Avengers HQ database (see screenshot in Episode 3 thread here). That means an effort was made by the surviving Avengers after the Snap to locate her and that, for whatever reason, she was determined to be among the missing. Also, Marvel's profile page for Sharon Carter says that she was Snapped. Therefore, if she was Snapped for five years, then it seems unbelievable that she became the Power Broker in the relatively short period of time between the final battle with Thanos and the start of this series (esp. given that she had been gone for five years).

Not Snapped - If Sharon was actually not Snapped, then that means she stayed hidden underground when the Avengers were looking for her after the Snap happened. Then, for five years, instead of coming out, contacting people, and trying to help during a time when governments and countries were in chaos, she chose to spend that time acquiring money and power for herself. That just seems totally out of character for the good person who we met previously. 

In either case, if they're just going for a big twist and make her the Power Broker, it will require a suspension of disbelief.

Edited by tv echo
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15 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Whew - I'm tired of Dollar Store Cap. 

I liked the flashback to Bucky and Ayo in Wakanda. Good work by Sebastian Stan in that scene. Also, I did not know I needed a scene of Ayo and Bucky going toe-to-toe. I'm thinking the Dora Milaje might need their own series.

Good episode for Sam. I liked his talk with Karli. 

Xemo slipping out while the Doras fought everyone else was amusing. 

There is a Wakanda Disney+ series in the works so you may get your wish to see more of the Dora Milaje. I hope they get Danai Gurira since she’s wrapped up Walking Dead. 

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10 hours ago, LaJefaza said:

Daniel Bruhl is also doing a fantastic job, given that viewers are now tickled by Zemo and find him adorable, even though the very first thing he did, when Bucky approached him at the jail, was try to reactivate the Winter Soldier for shits and giggles. His hilariousness has eclipsed the fact that he's actually a very dangerous man. I'm sure we haven't seen the last of him, and I'm certain he isn't to be trusted. But I do appreciate that he's a man who keeps to his principles, dubious as they may be. He didn't even attempt to consume any of the serum, he just wanted it gone. 

Oh, I think people know that Zemo is a very dangerous man.   I am loving the character but I am fully aware that one can trust him only as far as one's goals and beliefs align with his.  We are being happily seduced by a charismatic actor playing a compelling character.  While Zemo and Loki are not alike it's the Loki effect in action where a whole fandom goes gaga over a villain.

Meanwhile, on the not so charming side of fandom and its whims - Wyatt Russell is getting death threats for doing an excellent acting job as Walker.

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1 hour ago, marceline said:

The Dora Milage fight was epic and the whole time I was yelling at Walker and Bucky "Guys, y'all can't win this fight. That Vibranium arm and Vibranium shield are no match for soldiers who have lived with Vibranium their whole lives. That shield y'all love so much? In Wakanda it's a child's toy called a 'frisbee.' " 

I'm not really sure why Bucky and Sam for drawn into that fight. Bucky seemed happy to spectate, and Sam urged him to intervene, but why? Nobody was going to get killed.

38 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

Really bummed Battlestar was killed. Prior to this episode I had hoped he'd stick around as a supporting character, maybe in Rhodey's show or as part of Sword eventually. But my husband and I watched this episode with the sense that SOMEONE was going to die by the end and he seemed the logical choice. 

I had an inkling that Hoskins might to motivate Walker when he was captured and tied up. I'm glad he wasn't just executed, but managed to free himself and join the fight - it gave him agency as he died in a fight where he has chosen to take an active role 

55 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

I'm loving Zemo and glad they're setting him up to continue in the MCU. I didn't see his scenes with the kids as too sinister. I saw it as someone who, having been a father, was more successful at knowing how to get the kids to approach him and give him info. Creepy and manipulative for sure, but no pedo vibes.  Sam and Bucky just charging in and asking questions got them nowhere. It was his experience with children previously that made the difference. 

Good observation about Zemo having been a father. 

 

I am also going to take this opportunity to defend Turkish Delight. It is one of my favourite treats to have in at Christmas. 

If people have only tried it once it twice, it can be made in many different ways. I think the authentic method is the recipe including nuts. Here in Britain we often get a mix of rose and lemon flavours. It is one of those foods actually made worse by chocolate, so if anybody has only ever gotten to try the bastardised chocolate covered crap, it tasted nothing like the sweets Zemo was offering.

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On 4/9/2021 at 10:49 AM, Hana Chan said:

He really didn't exist as anything more than Walker's morality pet. I liked him primarily because he had a more clear-eyed view of what being CA should mean and wanted to help his friend achieve that. But his existence, and death, was pretty much reduced to motiving Walker. Which is a shame. And I probably would have found it more compelling if he'd been killed accidently by Walker while he was unused to his super strength.

I can't relate to this.

For one, it did hit me hard. For multiple reasons.

Battlestar just being extention of Walker is no different Sam in relation to Bucky. It doesn't make his character mean less to me. We are just now learning about Sam. And I was still gutted when Sam got dusted in infinity war.

Also, Battlestar was just as brave, in the fight and heroic as Walker. He even died protecting his friend in a sea of super soldiers and tetched of heroes.  He would have still done it whether or not he knew Walker took the serum. That speaks to his character and it sucks that he had to go out like this. 

And Walker inadvertently killing him does not work. The way it happened colors everything differently.  Karli and moral high ground is deeply tarnished now. Not saying it wasn't before but it shows how out of control she is right now. 

If Walker does the killing, it's whatever.  Most people didn't really like him anyway.

He killed defending his friend. It loses the complexity of it if he does it because of his own mistake. Now, you may sympathize even while being disgusted by his actions. Whereas, with the other scenario, he's just doubling down on his fuck ups.

I do care that Battlestar died and I love how it was done. Deaths in fiction, to me, hit even harder when it's so abrupt.  We get desensitized to violence in these beat em up action scenes but it's good to show how dangerous this all is. They are always one moment away from death. Especially the decidedly human heroes like Battlestar.  It's why I give so much respect to people like Hawkeye. He is always super vulnerable to death in these battles but he does it anyway.  This is a sobering reminder of that. We can't and won't always get that reminder but it's welcome.

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I really liked getting to see some of what was happening with Walker, emotionally and mentally, before he actually took the serum. Someone mentioned imposter syndrome above, and I think that was huge for him. He knew already that the awards he'd gotten were "undeserved" in some sense, and I bought that he really believed that he could do good and be good as the new CA. But the insecurities, the knowledge that he didn't have super strength like Steve, made him overcompensate in a fake it 'til you make it kind of way. I liked seeing him be open and vulnerable about that with Lemar and the fact that Lemar was all, "Hell, yeah" to taking the serum was probably the last bit of justification Walker needed to go ahead and take the serum. 

I think both he and Karli believe (or at least believed) that they were taking the serum for the right reason. That part of it is fascinating to me as we get to see that even with "pure" motives, and I think that Karli's motives were purer, if you will, than Walker's, though I think he did want to do a good job as CA, that kind of power is a tricky, tricky thing. 

I'm also so interested in the repetition of this idea that there was only one Steve Rogers - and, of course, that's true - but Bucky, torture and brainwashing aside, has handled the serum very well. And given what we've been seeing of Sam, I think they're likely setting him up to have the serum eventually, too, and handling it well. Maybe? 

Also, I'm loving seeing the development of Bucky and Sam's relationship. Bucky backed Sam up in talking to Karli alone initially and then refused to let Sam go alone later. The continued devotion Bucky has for Steve and his worthiness to be Cap seems to be transferring slowly, but surely to Sam. 

Also, I liked that Walker looked rough. He hadn't shaved and that, to me, was another indicator of his unraveling about being Cap. 

Edited by bethy
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1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

I do wonder if the Avengers could have been more selective in the ones they brought back—bring back all the people who were good and leave the evil and corrupt assholes dusted.

So in other words Bruce Banner gets to be judge, jury, and possible executioner for every single being who lost the coin flip and ended up being dusted?  He's still around so he should just go around now and execute everyone who has proven to be a jerk, right? 

2 minutes ago, MochaJay said:

I'm not really sure why Bucky and Sam for drawn into that fight. Bucky seemed happy to spectate, and Sam urged him to intervene, but why? Nobody was going to get killed.

Because heroes, especially a guy who's supposed to be the anti-John Walker and successor to Steve Rogers, shouldn't sit back and laugh their heads off just because they don't like the guy getting pummeled in front of them? 

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7 hours ago, bethy said:

Also, I liked that Walker looked rough. He hadn't shaved and that, to me, was another indicator of his unraveling about being Cap. 

Was bearded Rogers unravelling...or just lighting the sex bomb fuse?

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2 minutes ago, paigow said:

Was bearded Rogers unravelling...or just lighting the sex bomb fuse?

Steve was clearly lighting the sex bomb fuse. Just another of the super serum effects, I guess. 

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16 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

He murdered a guy in cold blood allegedly to avenge killed defending his friend. It loses the complexity of it if he does it because of his own mistake. Now, you may sympathize even while being disgusted by his actions. Whereas, with the other scenario, he's just doubling down on his fuck ups.

Fixed that for you, because that's about as not complex as it gets. I sympathize with Battlestar, who died when he didn't have to, and I even sympathize with Karli, because her goals are noble even if her execution is screwed up. Walker? Not one bit. He's been fucking up since he got here, and now he's besmirched that shield he supposedly values so much. I don't care if Steve used it to kill people in the past. I doubt it was anything as brutal as what we saw in the final minutes of this episode, and I doubt it was an unarmed who begged for his life. If he gets killed before this is over, good. If Karli kills him? Even better. She specified to Sam that if she harmed him, it would be meaningless because he (currently) isn't a symbol the way Walker is, and it won't be satisfying to me if John doesn't get a major comeuppance from this. Death would be preferable, but I'll accept imprisonment.

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Posts in this topic should be about the episode. If your post is not primarily about the episode, please rethink where to post it. Posts that are primarily about the Marvel movies (or that reply to such posts) will be removed and warnings may be issued. Thank you.

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