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S12.E14: I Expected a Little Better

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Jake and Haley know they aren’t suited for each other, but why be nasty and obnoxious about it? Couldn’t they just treat each other like you’d treat a person you barely know, with some courtesy and kindness? If Haley didn’t like the way Jake dressed and knowing from the jump that she wasn’t into him, she could have said, “Jake, you do you,” and not care. 

The bracelet is very symbolic for Jake. He gave her his trust, she took it, but then basically threw it away. She thought it was a joke. If a friend gives me a gift, I have it with me the next time we meet up, just to show I appreciate it. Never has to see the light of day after that, but that’s what a caring person does.

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33 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

It was very interesting that he said he didn't want to get to the point of saying I Love You frequently because it would cheapen the words.  I wish Pepper had explored why he feels that the frequency cheapens it...rather than how when love grows, the words I Love You can actually mean more as time goes on.  

Ya. That was weird. He said he didn't want it to lose its "value & purpose." Like. WTF?!! Uhhh. Did he mean to say he didn't want to say it when he doesn't mean it? So he wants to say & do what he "feels" so what is he doing to get there??? It looks like empty talk & no action on his part. Like he's building it up in his mind to be something that is completely unattainable.

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I'm wary of Vincent's motives to have children. Does he want them to heal the hurt of his childhood cuz that won't do it. Therapy will. & legacy? Again with the romanticized view. Who knows what they'll do or how long they'll live. His head is way too in the clouds. As far as lacking empathy, it can be tough for people, especially when you don't know what kind of conversation you're having.

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I'm glad Dr. Pepper followed up on their questions, even though I didn't see anything productive. They should have the spouses join right after the conversation cuz it's just a game of telephone gone wrong. 😅 They also need guidance on how to effectively communicate.

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5 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

I went to the website, and there was nothing at all about the car brokering, but it appeared to be a company that picks up your car to take it for servicing, and then brings it back.

Interesting.  When he was explaining why he wanted to sleep late, he said he gets really tired from driving around all day, and I thought, "Why would a car broker be driving around all day?"

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Vincent had a branded face mask on his honeymoon so I looked it up then and he seems to be running a few businesses under the VRM Enterprise name. He had an auto sale business selling 2nd hand cars, where he also finds one if you want a specific car. He had a concierge service where he picks your car up for repairs and services. He also had a 3rd one where he will negotiate for you buying a luxury car and set up all the paperwork. 

 

His business probably took a big hit with current conditions but he does seem to be hustling to keep it afloat and I hope he bounces back and makes  a success of it.

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19 hours ago, princelina said:

That wasn't me - it was the other poster who's husband has groovy tastes!  I'm the one who made a "no gift" policy so we could buy nice things for the house or go on trips 😄

Sorry, duh.  You are right.🙀

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Last night I went back to the beginning and watched the marriage of Jake & Haley.  She was sincerely smiling through the vows and later on while talking to Jake.  It wasn’t her fuck face .. it looked genuine.  A day or two later after they had drunk sex, she changed.  ???????  Who knows.  The rest of the honeymoon and thereafter was a bust.  I was trying to find the bracelet episode but couldn’t.

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Ryan talks to Clara like he's hearing orders from a boss before leaving for lunch: "Sure, sure, yeah, sure".  I don't think he's anything to write home about and Clara should request a divorce.  An emotionally unavailable man who is sexually withholding and uptight isn't going to become some romantic, sensual man who talks freely about feelings and throws her over his shoulder and makes passionate love to her.  Men like Ryan don't change and Clara or any woman trying to "fix" or coax love out of an emotionally unavailable/withholding man could greatly benefit from a self help book I read called "Men Who Can't Love".   

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The thing people seem to forget is that Jake was never into Haley, either. He’s said it more than once. When asked directly last week, “Is Haley the one for you?”, he didn’t say yes. He deflected and put it back on her. If Haley did everything right, she would be acceptable to him. (This from a guy who tells her that her own opinions are wrong.)

This is all about his butthurt ego. Maybe he can “laugh at himself” when it comes to dressing like a clown at professional events (what a catch! The “embarrassing one”!), but not when he suspects, however irrationally, that someone isn’t giving him his rightful credit for that oh-so-relatable sense of humor or his big, boring muscles or the sneering indifference he believes to be “maturity.”

Haley has, in fact, smiled, laughed, and appeared to have fun many times on this show. Maybe it was “fake” — Lord knows this girl can’t do anything right — but she absolutely tried. You’d have to be having mini-strokes all season not to see it.

And maybe it’s just my culture (America, c. forever), but one of the cardinal rules of gift-giving etiquette is that when you give a gift, you let it go. It’s been given. You don’t have the infinite right to whinge about how it’s used or not. Not even if you sneak an infinity symbol into said gift. That’s not a loophole in Georgia. 

An $800 bracelet in necklace’s clothing, given to a stranger, is a bit of a white elephant in any case. Perhaps Jake meant it as a sincere gesture. I have no idea. But if so, it’s another case of being completely out of touch with the newfangled theory sweeping the nation that women are human beings, equal to men, not groveling semi-people who must forever kiss the feet of any man who drops an expensive trinket in their laps.

I could watch every second of footage from this season, but I will never see Jake as an innocent victim of this wicked woman who deliberately went on the show to fuck with him. That’s literally not what happened. But the most shocking thing has been how well his super-obvious manipulations have worked on so many. I’m sure he will find the right woman soon enough. She’ll be a simpering doormat with no desire to be her own person. It’ll be fantastic. 

Edited by JocelynCavanaugh
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13 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Interesting.  When he was explaining why he wanted to sleep late, he said he gets really tired from driving around all day, and I thought, "Why would a car broker be driving around all day?"

I'm thinking Vincent embellishes a little when he describes his job and income...like Michael, but not as obvious.

 

18 hours ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

The bracelet is very symbolic for Jake. He gave her his trust, she took it, but then basically threw it away. She thought it was a joke. If a friend gives me a gift, I have it with me the next time we meet up, just to show I appreciate it. Never has to see the light of day after that, but that’s what a caring person does.

The bracelet is the helmet from she was 4 years old. If she doesn't want to wear it, then SHE'S NOT GONNA WEAR IT GAWDDAMMIT!

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3 hours ago, Hip-to-be-Square said:

Ryan talks to Clara like he's hearing orders from a boss before leaving for lunch: "Sure, sure, yeah, sure".  I don't think he's anything to write home about and Clara should request a divorce.  An emotionally unavailable man who is sexually withholding and uptight isn't going to become some romantic, sensual man who talks freely about feelings and throws her over his shoulder and makes passionate love to her.  Men like Ryan don't change and Clara or any woman trying to "fix" or coax love out of an emotionally unavailable/withholding man could greatly benefit from a self help book I read called "Men Who Can't Love".   

Or the book “He’s really not into you!”

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On 4/16/2021 at 3:48 PM, pdlinda said:

You're so RIGHT!  Now my thoughts are roaming even farther "afield"  to the Macy's, Dillard's (or any other retailer's) clearance bins near the fine jewelry showcases???? 

How about another girlfriend, another time?

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35 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

Or the book “He’s really not into you!”

Oh definitely- I wish I could send Clara both of my copies of "Men Who Can't Love" and "He's Just Not That Into You", because Ryan is a double whammy. 

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1 hour ago, JocelynCavanaugh said:

The thing people seem to forget is that Jake was never into Haley, either. He’s said it more than once. When asked directly last week, “Is Haley the one for you?”, he didn’t say yes. He deflected and put it back on her. If Haley did everything right, she would be acceptable to him. (This from a guy who tells her that her own opinions are wrong.)

I felt a little sympathy for Jake in the beginning because it was clear that Haley wasn't into him at all.  Rejection is hard to swallow.  I get that.  But then he began to show just how mean spirited he could be and any sympathy I had went out the window.  However, as mentioned above, I never saw any evidence that he was that interested in her either.  He never showed any interest in who she was, her background, family, travels.  Nada.  He never smiles; he smirks.

Haley is uncomfortable to watch now because she's...uncomfortable.  She's sitting there with pursed lips and fake smiles, listening to her friend and Dr. Pepper and telling her what she should be doing and saying, as if they know what it's like to be living with Jake. 

They are both painful for me to watch, for different reasons.  I wish her well though and I hope she finds a partner.  I have no kind words for Jake.

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23 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Since Vinny was expressing hesitancy about adoption when talking about legacy, I'm afraid this is where he is, and I think it's kind of gross.  It's definitely where Chris would be.

I have to disagree here - Vinny came on this show a few weeks ago and he must have said he wanted kids - and now a few weeks in he's expected (on camera!) to completely change what he's been thinking of his whole life for a woman he barely knows and do it NOW! or GET A DIVORCE! I don't think that's fair to him, and if he had immediately said "Sure, I'd be fine with adoption!" I'd think him a liar.  He annoys me with his sulky babyness about other things, but not this one.

I don't hate Haley - I've been a little more Team Jake for 2 reasons: first, the ditching him that he discovered on the honeymoon, and second, her feeling about herself that she "doesn't do what she doesn't want to do" - that's not a character trait I admire.  I'd like to go back in time and match her with Eric - would his more traditional style be enough to impress her?  Would the 2 of them each be so rigid that they hated each other as much as she and Jake do?  I'm curious.

Then I would have fixed Clara up with Jake - she's up for anything it seems, and he's up for the sex so they might have been a fun match.  That leaves Ryan with Paige - maybe they're on the same page with religion - how would that have worked out?   Vinny and Briana could stay together, and Chris and Virginia shouldn't have been picked for this show, so that would settle it.  Four couples is enough anyway!

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So I watched the episode again when they reran it at some obscenely late hour while I was awake for no reason - I noticed even more flaws and inconsistencies in Haley’s statements and positions:
 

1. She defended her behavior regarding the bracelet by telling Jake that she “didn’t think it was a big deal” and that it “didn’t even cross [her] mind”. Then shortly thereafter she doubled down on that position by telling Dr Pepper that it didn’t even cross her mind. Yet she then complained to her mom that Jake brought up the bracelet to Dr Pepper “yet again, for the 95th time”. So which is it??? I’m thinking if Jake brought up the bracelet more than once before (never mind “94” times before, lol), how can Haley possibly argue that she wasn’t aware that it was important to him or that it never crossed her mind? She even complained to her friend just 2 weeks into the marriage that not wearing the bracelet was “apparently a huge problem for him”. Yet she still said to Jake at week 6 that she “didn’t realize that it was bothering [him] so much”. Huh??? She seems to have a tendency to twist her story to support whatever argument she is making at the moment. The problem for her is the cameras are rolling for a lot of it, so the inconsistencies are indisputable.

2. She told Jake that she received the bracelet “3 minutes” before she went downstairs to walk down the aisle, yet the footage of her opening the gift shows her draped in a black cape, without any makeup or jewelry and her hair was yet to be done. Obviously it took a whole lot more than 3 minutes for her to finish getting ready, so her “3 minute” claim was quite a stretch. Did she forget that the cameras filmed that? Anyway, how hard would it have been for her to at least take the bracelet out of the box and try it on (and realize that it was, in fact, a bracelet) while people worked on her hair and makeup? I’ve heard that people on these shows are on their best behavior at the beginning because they are acutely aware of the presence of the cameras. I’m surprised she would allow herself to reveal such indifference and lack of appreciation so soon (unless she truly is so out of touch that she really didn’t recognize that that behavior was rude and unappreciative...if that’s the case then she has way bigger problems than a MAFS divorce on the horizon).

It’s gotten to the point where the cameras have caught her fabricating enough stories that it’s hard to believe anything she says at all. It’s pretty ironic that, in an effort to bolster her arguments, she has lost credibility and has actually weakened them. 
 

All of that being said, in Haley’s defense, I think the production crew might have played Haley a bit in order to draw out some of the less than perfect behavior we see from her on camera. Don’t get me wrong, at the end of the day she was the one who said what she said, so it’s on her, but I’m thinking the production team might have egged her on. Here’s my thinking: She seems to have a tendency to seek support from others during her arguments, and when she thinks she has succeeded it fuels her to dig in even deeper. For example, during their group therapy session, Haley repeatedly looked to Dr Pepper for support (with her typical “see what I’m dealing with here??” wide eyed, tilted head and extended lower jaw expression). Dr Pepper didn’t bite so she backed down from the Jake bashing during that session. But I’m willing to bet the same thing has happened with the production crew when she was complaining about or making fun of Jake. I’m thinking the crew might have gone along with it, seeing an opportunity and hoping to inspire her to say even more on camera. If that’s the case, it worked brilliantly. As another example, you can see her dig deeper and deeper after she knew she had successfully recruited her own mom to support her during ‘bracelet-gate’ (I’m betting her mom has played this role throughout Haley’s whole life). Haley had a very satisfied expression on her face when she realized she had persuaded her mom to believe that Jake was wrong. Haley often has that same satisfied (“we are all in on the joke”) expression when she’s offering side commentary straight to the camera, as if she believes that she just successfully recruited the production team to see her perspective and she thinks they’re all making fun of Jake together. But what’s really happening is the production crew has just egged her on and baited her into being rude or mean or whatever on film all by herself. It wouldn’t be the first time a reality tv crew played the cast for the sake of “good TV”. 
 

...just a thought (a long thought!)

Edited by Spectator
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58 minutes ago, princelina said:

don't hate Haley - I've been a little more Team Jake for 2 reasons: first, the ditching him that he discovered on the honeymoon, and second, her feeling about herself that she "doesn't do what she doesn't want to do" - that's not a character trait I admire.  I'd like to go back in time and match her with Eric - would his more traditional style be enough to impress her?  Would the 2 of them each be so rigid that they hated each other as much as she and Jake do?  I'm curious.

Haley is really funny.  She doesn’t do what she doesn’t want to do.  I don’t like to go to baseball games, but I do .. I don’t like to cook sometimes, but I do.. I hate doing laundry, but I do.  Half of life is doing what you don’t want to do.  That is a spoiled child who does only what she wants to do.  How long could any man take that?        Btw .. where is that thinggamajig on the bottom right that takes you back up to the top of this thread?  It’s gone since they changed the threads.

Edited by Silver Bells
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Ryan and Clara are turning a relationship motif on its head, to wit: The Woman, who heretofore has sown her fair share of wild oats, falls in love with the Unattainable Man.

 Corollary: The "Happily Ever After" is also going to be turned on its head, to wit: "Yeah, No."

Re:  Braceletgate. I thought it and Haley's "Roll, Tide" hat were specifically wedding gifts (part of my area's tradition,, anyway).

Jake fairly assumed that Haley might at least discover that the bracelet was, indeed, a bracelet, never mind that his new wife might even wear it, say, at the reception. 

Now, if somebody really thinks that Haley---this Haley, our Haley---would be copacetic with Jake's wearing a hat that isn't even from his school, never mind looking like an old doofus frat "boy," well, I'm not watching the same show. 

IOW, Haley's wedding gift to Jake did, as she'd hoped, reveal something about her. All about her. 

Edited by LennieBriscoe
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4 hours ago, Spectator said:

So I watched the episode again when they reran it at some obscenely late hour while I was awake for no reason - I noticed even more flaws and inconsistencies in Haley’s statements and positions:
 

1. She defended her behavior regarding the bracelet by telling Jake that she “didn’t think it was a big deal” and that it “didn’t even cross [her] mind”. Then shortly thereafter she doubled down on that position by telling Dr Pepper that it didn’t even cross her mind. Yet she then complained to her mom that Jake brought up the bracelet to Dr Pepper “yet again, for the 95th time”. So which is it??? I’m thinking if Jake brought up the bracelet more than once before (never mind “94” times before, lol), how can Haley possibly argue that she wasn’t aware that it was important to him or that it never crossed her mind? She even complained to her friend just 2 weeks into the marriage that not wearing the bracelet was “apparently a huge problem for him”. Yet she still said to Jake at week 6 that she “didn’t realize that it was bothering [him] so much”. Huh??? She seems to have a tendency to twist her story to support whatever argument she is making at the moment. The problem for her is the cameras are rolling for a lot of it, so the inconsistencies are indisputable.

2. She told Jake that she received the bracelet “3 minutes” before she went downstairs to walk down the aisle, yet the footage of her opening the gift shows her draped in a black cape, without any makeup or jewelry and her hair was yet to be done. Obviously it took a whole lot more than 3 minutes for her to finish getting ready, so her “3 minute” claim was quite a stretch. Did she forget that the cameras filmed that? Anyway, how hard would it have been for her to at least take the bracelet out of the box and try it on (and realize that it was, in fact, a bracelet) while people worked on her hair and makeup? I’ve heard that people on these shows are on their best behavior at the beginning because they are acutely aware of the presence of the cameras. I’m surprised she would allow herself to reveal such indifference and lack of appreciation so soon (unless she truly is so out of touch that she really didn’t recognize that that behavior was rude and unappreciative...if that’s the case then she has way bigger problems than a MAFS divorce on the horizon).

It’s gotten to the point where the cameras have caught her fabricating enough stories that it’s hard to believe anything she says at all. It’s pretty ironic that, in an effort to bolster her arguments, she has lost credibility and has actually weakened them. 
 

All of that being said, in Haley’s defense, I think the production crew might have played Haley a bit in order to draw out some of the less than perfect behavior we see from her on camera. Don’t get me wrong, at the end of the day she was the one who said what she said, so it’s on her, but I’m thinking the production team might have egged her on. Here’s my thinking: She seems to have a tendency to seek support from others during her arguments, and when she thinks she has succeeded it fuels her to dig in even deeper. For example, during their group therapy session, Haley repeatedly looked to Dr Pepper for support (with her typical “see what I’m dealing with here??” wide eyed, tilted head and extended lower jaw expression). Dr Pepper didn’t bite so she backed down from the Jake bashing during that session. But I’m willing to bet the same thing has happened with the production crew when she was complaining about or making fun of Jake. I’m thinking the crew might have gone along with it, seeing an opportunity and hoping to inspire her to say even more on camera. If that’s the case, it worked brilliantly. As another example, you can see her dig deeper and deeper after she knew she had successfully recruited her own mom to support her during ‘bracelet-gate’ (I’m betting her mom has played this role throughout Haley’s whole life). Haley had a very satisfied expression on her face when she realized she had persuaded her mom to believe that Jake was wrong. Haley often has that same satisfied (“we are all in on the joke”) expression when she’s offering side commentary straight to the camera, as if she believes that she just successfully recruited the production team to see her perspective and she thinks they’re all making fun of Jake together. But what’s really happening is the production crew has just egged her on and baited her into being rude or mean or whatever on film all by herself. It wouldn’t be the first time a reality tv crew played the cast for the sake of “good TV”. 
 

...just a thought (a long thought!)

I couldn’t find that scene.  Do you remember approximately where it was?   Sometimes when I’m watching and typing I miss something.

Edited by Silver Bells

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Haley v. Jake. This display of their worst characteristics seems to have accelerated drunken honeymoon sex. Which for Haley was clearly bad. Very bad.

So she's out of Dodge as far as physical or emotional closeness with Jake. And every one of his insecurities gets exacerbated and here we are.

Braceletgate: Perhaps she thought of it as she did his hat (keeper gift, not for the wedding). Not necessarily what I would have done, but then, I would never go on MAFS.

Edited by buttersister
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On 4/14/2021 at 6:51 PM, MyTwoCents said:

Amen!! Everything you said! I, too, would be miserable with him.

Also, Jake is 38? He should know better than to dress like that for a company function at a golf course. I’m surprised they let him on the course with a collarless shirt and cutoff blue jean shorts! 
Haley is younger and way more professional! If I were her, I’d die of embarrassment to take him to any work function.

What do you think the proper corporate dress code should be?  Why do corporate dress codes even exist?

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On 4/15/2021 at 10:23 AM, Ilovepie said:

If you watch Unfiltered you would see this is not true. He is very well spoken and funny. That photo was hilarious! Is he an extrovert? No! He works in IT and is a self-described computer nerd! That doesn't mean he has no personality! I think the closing his eyes and nodding is because he is exhausted having to deal with Haley and he's just over it. Frankly, they both bring out the worst in each other.

 

Just imagine her reaction if she had been paired with Bennett last season! She would have had a stroke over the yellow sleep dress, and probably every other thing he wore......

So she's a sore winner AND a sore loser. Fun!

Yes, and telling her she looks really pretty. I think we know why Haley thinks she's better than Jake........

100%. Pastor Cal just nodding to whatever Clara was spouting about how wonderful her and Ryan's relationship is, and Pepper not forcing the issue. I don't get it. These two are playing a good game here, but it's not going to last long term even if they say yes on D-Day.

Erik handled that better than I think any of the military men in my life would. I died when she said that. That was straight up offensive, but she is clearly ignorant.

Erik deserves bonus points for that.

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On 4/15/2021 at 11:15 AM, Yeah No said:

I agree, and if anyone wants to know the reason why I haven't been posting in this thread very much this season, it's because I'm tired of the villainization of Haley.  I think it's often mean spirited and over the line.  Neither of these people deserve that.  Even if they were the two nicest people in the world (which they aren't) they would still not be a match.  Period, the end.  I don't care how Jake or Haley dresses.  I don't think they are bad people, but I do wonder why both of them are still single, especially Jake at his age.  There must be issues there.  He always has this look on his face like he has an axe to grind because he's convinced that he gets the same poor treatment from women every time.  He can't see what he's doing to sabotage himself.  Haley has no communication skills.  She can't even defend herself and comes off as aloof and superior.  She isn't very easy to connect with, despite what she thinks about herself.  She also can't see herself and how she sabotages herself.  You would think that at some point both of these people would look in the mirror and figure out what THEY are doing to put people off and why they haven't been successful at finding a relationship.  At this point I really think both of them should probably have been put on the new "MAFS Unmatchables" series rather than on this show.

But Haily IS the villain.  Donating the bracelet to her mom was low class. She should have worn it once or twice to be nice.

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On 4/15/2021 at 11:51 AM, MyTwoCents said:

Amen!! Everything you said! I, too, would be miserable with him.

Also, Jake is 38? He should know better than to dress like that for a company function at a golf course. I’m surprised they let him on the course with a collarless shirt and cutoff blue jean shorts! 
Haley is younger and way more professional! If I were her, I’d die of embarrassment to take him to any work function.

What he wore is positively tame compared to our last golf day, we had thongs (flip flops to the Americans so you don't think underwear) hulu skirts & coconut bras, grannies,  and all of them were men if you came to our golf day in corporate attire you would be laughed. BTW I am also in IT and it is all harmless fun.

And then we have hubbies corporate golf day, they start with breakfast at 7am (mainly alcohol) play a round while drinking alcohol, have lunch at the clubhouse with more alcohol, do their awards ceremony and then normally make decisions  that end up with the police driving them all home before somebody gets injured or arrested but they all dress neat casual so I am sure they are much less of a nuisance than our crazy outfits and he works for a large international company.

Different strokes for different folks I am glad that I can have fun with my colleagues without worrying about being judged.

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2 hours ago, Gator Stud said:

What do you think the proper corporate dress code should be?  Why do corporate dress codes even exist?

First, I can’t speak for all, but every golf course I’ve been to had a dress code that required a shirt with a collar and jeans were definitely not allowed, long or short. Second, functions outside the work setting is where you get to see employees on a different level, more of who they are as a person. These interactions tell them if the person is someone they’d like to see move up the ladder or not. Who they selected as a spouse is also telling and someone who is a constant joker and can’t respect dress codes or rules because he wants to stand out as the goofball, reflects badly on her and her decision-making skills.

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11 minutes ago, MyTwoCents said:

First, I can’t speak for all, but every golf course I’ve been to had a dress code that required a shirt with a collar and jeans were definitely not allowed, long or short. Second, functions outside the work setting is where you get to see employees on a different level, more of who they are as a person. These interactions tell them if the person is someone they’d like to see move up the ladder or not. Who they selected as a spouse is also telling and someone who is a constant joker and can’t respect dress codes or rules because he wants to stand out as the goofball, reflects badly on her and her decision-making skills.

She may as well quit work now then because I am pretty sure signing up to get married on a reality show is going to reflect way worse on her career than what her husband wore to a corporate day if her work place is so judgemental.

 

Our corporate days are set for fun and bonding they are most defiantly a judgement free zone, unless you strip naked or attack somebody then you will face consequences. IT is really lose if I turned up to work in my pajamas my colleagues wouldn't bat an eye, we are judged by our work quality not our personalities (unless you are quite abrasive)

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38 minutes ago, crazychicken said:

She may as well quit work now then because I am pretty sure signing up to get married on a reality show is going to reflect way worse on her career than what her husband wore to a corporate day if her work place is so judgemental.

 

Our corporate days are set for fun and bonding they are most defiantly a judgement free zone, unless you strip naked or attack somebody then you will face consequences. IT is really lose if I turned up to work in my pajamas my colleagues wouldn't bat an eye, we are judged by our work quality not our personalities (unless you are quite abrasive)

I think the point is not so much corporate culture and dress codes in general as it is Jake's need to be That Guy who takes the "norm" (acceptable golf course attire; backyard landscaping; "leisure" footwear; food choices; etc.) just that one toke over the line.

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While we're talking about fashion etiquette; I can't stand Ryan and Vinny wearing hats indoors and especially inside of a restaurant.  Clara needs to stop exposing her tawdry, mismatching lace bras that extend inches past the neckline of her skimpy tops and dresses.  Vinny should wear an undershirt under his clothing to smooth out his chest.  Jake needs a cobbler for his worn shoe soles.  

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32 minutes ago, Hip-to-be-Square said:

While we're talking about fashion etiquette; I can't stand Ryan and Vinny wearing hats indoors and especially inside of a restaurant.  Clara needs to stop exposing her tawdry, mismatching lace bras that extend inches past the neckline of her skimpy tops and dresses.  Vinny should wear an undershirt under his clothing to smooth out his chest.  Jake needs a cobbler for his worn shoe soles.  

I am also increasingly convinced that Ryan has a combover and is going bald.  It is not a good look.  Especially with the elf ears.

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On 4/15/2021 at 9:17 PM, princelina said:

So Erik's a jerk but what he's looking for isn't all that uncommon in the realm of marriage seekers - and as far as Rule #1 goes - he's probably only asking at this point that she doesn't pass out on "guy friends" couches

Excellent point. Give the regular prosecutions of men who rape drunk or drugged women . . .  1) why would any loving partner want a woman to put herself at risk? 2) why would she put herself at risk?  Yes, I know they are her friends. . . but I can name several cases off the top of my head where some random person (or persons) led a woman off somewhere, walked through an unlocked door, etc. etc.  Shit happens. 

 

Looked up what lip curling in means...from an article in Psychology Today The Lips don't Lie "the level of lip compression or disappearing lips varied with the level of stress caused by the topic".  I was so team Haley... but was wrong. 

Haley2.jpg

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44 minutes ago, Alexander Pope said:

I am also increasingly convinced that Ryan has a combover and is going bald.  It is not a good look.  Especially with the elf ears.

I think he's going bald too- his haircut really puts his Nosferatu ears on full display.  If Vinny and Ryan are going to continue to wear hats, they need to invest in quality pieces and they seriously need to get a proper head fitting.  Vinny tried to look like Crocodile Dundee in a hat a few weeks ago and ended up looking like a sweaty zoo keeper.  Ryan needs to realize that backwards baseball caps are for MLB players and 10 year old boys. 

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I think it would be interesting to see Erik paired with a woman who didn't drink very much  (eg, wine with dinner, occasional cocktail, etc) and who didn't want to party and sleep over with friends all the time. 

What would he be like if those issues weren't something to argue about? 

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On 4/17/2021 at 12:09 PM, Hip-to-be-Square said:

Ryan talks to Clara like he's hearing orders from a boss before leaving for lunch: "Sure, sure, yeah, sure".  I don't think he's anything to write home about and Clara should request a divorce.  An emotionally unavailable man who is sexually withholding and uptight isn't going to become some romantic, sensual man who talks freely about feelings and throws her over his shoulder and makes passionate love to her.  Men like Ryan don't change and Clara or any woman trying to "fix" or coax love out of an emotionally unavailable/withholding man could greatly benefit from a self help book I read called "Men Who Can't Love".   

Yep.  If he hasn’t by now, I doubt he will.  Something is up with him, and it’s not you know what.  She should divorce.  There’s nothing there.  What red blooded male doesn’t want sex?  And she’s a fool for doing what she’s doing for him. Stupid.

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20 minutes ago, ChristmasJones said:

I think it would be interesting to see Erik paired with a woman who didn't drink very much  (eg, wine with dinner, occasional cocktail, etc) and who didn't want to party and sleep over with friends all the time. 

What would he be like if those issues weren't something to argue about? 

Happy?   The first year of my marriage, my husband worked 4 to 12 shift and took our car to work.  I was alone.  I didn’t drink, didn’t go out .. nothing.  I read, watched t.v. and did arts n crafts.  After seeing this bunch, I see why I’m still married.  Virginia wants too much and should not be married.  Plus, she’s constantly shaking that shaker.

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16 hours ago, Silver Bells said:

I couldn’t find that scene.  Do you remember approximately where it was?   Sometimes when I’m watching and typing I miss something.

BTW, that was an excellent summation.  You hit all the nails on the heads.  (Spectators post up above).

Edited by Silver Bells
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On 4/17/2021 at 3:17 PM, Blissfool said:

I'm thinking Vincent embellishes a little when he describes his job and income...like Michael, but not as obvious.

 

The bracelet is the helmet from she was 4 years old. If she doesn't want to wear it, then SHE'S NOT GONNA WEAR IT GAWDDAMMIT!

Two months after I met my husband, he gave me a gold bracelet with turquoise stones in it.  It came from the Diamond center in N.Y. and was in a small square box.  I wore it everyday to work and he was thrilled.  He was happy he picked a nice thing.  Men notice these things.  If I hadn’t worn it, he would think I didn’t like it and it would hurt him.  I would have worn it even if it was a rubberband.  She should have put it on right away.  Takes 3 seconds to fasten.  First she had to look see if it was a necklace or bracelet.  Even if it was a necklace, I would have worn it.  Paige wore two.  Smart.

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6 hours ago, crazychicken said:

What he wore is positively tame compared to our last golf day, we had thongs (flip flops to the Americans so you don't think underwear) hulu skirts & coconut bras, grannies,  and all of them were men if you came to our golf day in corporate attire you would be laughed. BTW I am also in IT and it is all harmless fun.

And then we have hubbies corporate golf day, they start with breakfast at 7am (mainly alcohol) play a round while drinking alcohol, have lunch at the clubhouse with more alcohol, do their awards ceremony and then normally make decisions  that end up with the police driving them all home before somebody gets injured or arrested but they all dress neat casual so I am sure they are much less of a nuisance than our crazy outfits and he works for a large international company.

Different strokes for different folks I am glad that I can have fun with my colleagues without worrying about being judged.

It also could have been a muni course.  All you need is a shirt and pants to play those

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2 hours ago, Hip-to-be-Square said:

I think he's going bald too- his haircut really puts his Nosferatu ears on full display.

I pulled this out just in case someone is just skimming.  It deserves to be seen.

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Also, I would love to see Erik ask Ginny if she would be ok when he was travelling if he shared hotel rooms with his female co-workers - you know, the ones he's known for years, his great buds in the travel industry.  I'd like him to do this completely seriously and watch her reaction.

I would also like to have the entire group of couples together and have Erik ask everyone how they would feel about their partner drinking and crashing on the couch at a friend of the opposite sex (or the same for that matter).

I think the deeper issue is that Ginny is not actually ready to settle down and start a family - which is perfectly OK. She shouldn't have signed up for this show. I think Erik should be pissed at the producers, but then again he was dumb enough to sign up.  When they divorce, he'll have plenty of women sliding into his DMs I'm sure.

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20 hours ago, Silver Bells said:

I couldn’t find that scene.  Do you remember approximately where it was?   Sometimes when I’m watching and typing I miss something.

It was when Haley and Jake were talking on the couch without Dr Pepper. I think they had just read their letters to themselves and Jake said he would have advised himself to return the bracelet. Then she rattled off a bunch of reasons why she didn’t have it or wear it, including that she didn’t think it was a big deal and that it didn’t cross her mind. She had a few others as well. Lol. 
 

I think I might need to pop a champagne cork the second these two announce they are done. Their interactions are so full of animosity at this point, watching them is just painful. 

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13 minutes ago, Spectator said:

It was when Haley and Jake were talking on the couch without Dr Pepper. I think they had just read their letters to themselves and Jake said he would have advised himself to return the bracelet. Then she rattled off a bunch of reasons why she didn’t have it or wear it, including that she didn’t think it was a big deal and that it didn’t cross her mind. She had a few others as well. Lol. 
 

I think I might need to pop a champagne cork the second these two announce they are done. Their interactions are so full of animosity at this point, watching them is just painful. 

Thanks.  I’m gonna look for it.

 

5 hours ago, Hip-to-be-Square said:

While we're talking about fashion etiquette; I can't stand Ryan and Vinny wearing hats indoors and especially inside of a restaurant.  Clara needs to stop exposing her tawdry, mismatching lace bras that extend inches past the neckline of her skimpy tops and dresses.  Vinny should wear an undershirt under his clothing to smooth out his chest.  Jake needs a cobbler for his worn shoe soles.  

That was bad.  Holes in his shoes on National t.v.

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On 4/16/2021 at 12:17 AM, princelina said:

look at what he thinks a "marriage should be" ~

  • wives don't go out drinking and pass out on their friends couches on a regular basis
  • if a husband is away for work regularly - then when he is not a wife should prioritize her time with him
  • being married = having children

I said when I saw this:

Not passing out on Guy friends' couches after the pub is to marriage as diet and exercise are to living a longer, healthier life. 

Sure, you can be hit by a bus, get cancer, other variables can kill you or make you get sick despite all efforts to the contrary. BUT it's common knowlege that this is an expectation in life. 

Can I get drunk with hetero male friends weekly and crash on their couches and have a happy marriage? Yeah- maybe. But it's the exception not the rule.  Can I guzzle Pepsi and live on goldfish crackers and big macs and live longer than someone else? Yeah but it's the exception.  

If Ginny can't see this, she's a lost cause. Eric's sister-in-law was giving off major side-eye at Ginny both in talking heads & in person. Also, look at these two women who are similar in age and the greasy, blemished, jittery Virginia compared to the composed, clean, dewy complexioned sister-in-law.

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2 hours ago, ChristmasJones said:

Also, I would love to see Erik ask Virginia if she would be ok when he was travelling if he shared hotel rooms with his female employees - you know, the ones he's known for years, his great buds in the travel industry.  I'd like him to do this completely seriously and watch her reaction.

I want to ❤ your post a million  x. All of it.

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9 hours ago, MyTwoCents said:

First, I can’t speak for all, but every golf course I’ve been to had a dress code that required a shirt with a collar and jeans were definitely not allowed, long or short. Second, functions outside the work setting is where you get to see employees on a different level, more of who they are as a person. These interactions tell them if the person is someone they’d like to see move up the ladder or not. Who they selected as a spouse is also telling and someone who is a constant joker and can’t respect dress codes or rules because he wants to stand out as the goofball, reflects badly on her and her decision-making skills.

That outfit Jake wore in the golf pic was extreme if everyone else was in khakis and polos - to the point of being ridiculous.  I don't think anyone else was in the photo - it could have been some kind of redneck theme or something and they were all doing it - I could more likely see Jake amusing himself by showing the photo and letting her believe he was the only one dressed like that at a country club full of well dressed people 😄

2 hours ago, ChristmasJones said:

Also, I would love to see Erik ask Virginia if she would be ok when he was travelling if he shared hotel rooms with his female employees - you know, the ones he's known for years, his great buds in the travel industry.  I'd like him to do this completely seriously and watch her reaction.

You forgot to add "after they all went out drinking"!

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24 minutes ago, princelina said:

That outfit Jake wore in the golf pic was extreme if everyone else was in khakis and polos - to the point of being ridiculous.  I don't think anyone else was in the photo - it could have been some kind of redneck theme or something and they were all doing it - I could more likely see Jake amusing himself by showing the photo and letting her believe he was the only one dressed like that at a country club full of well dressed people 😄

You forgot to add "after they all went out drinking"!

 

Yes, and it should have been co-workers rather than employees.

The saying "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" is applicable here. There are people who seem to be blissfully unaware of how their actions affect others until the exact same thing is done to them.  

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This season is boring! I miss Amani and Woody, Bennett and Amelia. Karen and Miles. Henry and the liar. Even Brett and Olivia. At least I rooted for all of them except the liar. 
This season I don’t care for the couples or care if they make it. I did like Erik and Virginia but why would an adult married woman need to have sleepovers with other drunks? It seems like something off putting could happen. 
Haley and Jacob just don’t like each other. 
Ryan needs to put out. Clara needs to stop slobbin the nob if he is doing nothing marital for her. 
Vinny and Brianna are okay but he gives off some unsavory vibes here and there. 
 

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9 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

I think the point is not so much corporate culture and dress codes in general as it is Jake's need to be That Guy who takes the "norm" (acceptable golf course attire; backyard landscaping; "leisure" footwear; food choices; etc.) just that one toke over the line.

Jake seems like an attention seeker. I wonder why he's like that. I'd just ignore it. 😅 He looks fine in his normal clothes. Haley picking apart his clothes & his life is beyond ridiculous. It's just giving him what he wants! 😂 WHY SO BOTHERED?!! It's terrible!!

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On 4/15/2021 at 9:17 PM, princelina said:

I agree - Erik comes off as controlling (true) and "know how a marriage should be" (seems obnoxious) but I'd like someone to look at what he thinks a "marriage should be" ~

  • wives don't go out drinking and pass out on their friends couches on a regular basis
  • if a husband is away for work regularly - then when he is not a wife should prioritize her time with him
  • being married = having children

So Erik's a jerk but what he's looking for isn't all that uncommon in the realm of marriage seekers - and as far as Rule #1 goes - he's probably only asking at this point that she doesn't pass out on "guy friends" couches

Until I see that HIS idea of marriage is different than - what?  basically everyone else's idea of marriage - I'm giving him a break in spite of his poor delivery 🙂 

Virginia is so caught up in fighting against Erik's perceived control she can't even see the absurdity of her side. She's mad he's being closed-minded, but so is she. They're a MESS!! & it's because they can't EFFECTIVELY COMMUNICATE!!! They just argue their side. Like. Why have their beliefs of marriage be a conversation topic if they just argue their differences?!! 😂😂 Their assignment was to set goals & behaviors to reach them. That was a good assignment they couldn't even get to cuz they got stuck in their usual cycle and can't reach an agreement. The solution is so clear, will they ever get it??? It's gotta change.

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