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S05.E13: Brotherly Love

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Looking forward to seeing how they handle this one.

Edited by nexxie
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Wow: that was intense & emotional!  I am glad they got a lot of their 'ugly" emotions out of the way & could really talk to each other.  I Loved when Kevin said "You are my Brother, My Smart Black Brother".

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Little kid Kevin and Randall are so adorable. I loved Randall emphatically saying Yes! when the puppet asked him if he liked to read books. Too cute.

I also liked Kevin telling Randall he was still drunk when he said Kevin's painting looked like a Pollock.

Randall finally apologized to Kevin! That was cathartic.

Also nice that Kevin acknowledged he resented and was envious of Randall for not only being smart and successful but also Black. It sounds like it was all wrapped up in his mind as a whole.

Now that I know about the ghost kingdoms, Randall and his ghost mom make a little more sense.

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13 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Randall still have many issues. The problem is I think his issues stem more with Jack and Rebecca but cannot address them because Jack is dead and he idolizes Rebecca. So he is taking them out on Kevin (and Kate).
Was young Kevin a dick? Yeah but his issues also stem back to Jack and Rebecca and how they treated Randall as special because he was adopted  and pushed Kevin to the wayside.  And that is something that Randall WILL NEVER apologize for. That he got a bulk of the attention from his parents and Kevin was left out. 
But I am glad they made up and Randall did apologize for the cheap shots and Kevin apologized for his lack of clarity or seeing everything growing up.
Sadly even Randall's ghost kingdom with Laurel and William at the end was that - a dream.  It wouldn't have been reality even if they kept him. 
 

Wasn't it Kevin who apologized for taking cheap shots at Randall (Serious question - I could have misheard). I didn't see Randall taking responsibility for much of anything. Yes, Kevin could be horrible and I appreciate how they showed that he could make stupid, inappropriate comments but that it was out of spite or jealousy and not necessarily racism...but I don't see the same nuances in the characterization of Randall. The writers make it out that he is right all the time and a victim of everyone in his life. The younger Randalls are still endearing but the current-day version is becoming insufferable. 

Edit: Okay, someone else mentioned Randall apologizing too, so you are probably right. 

Edited by brokenwing29
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3 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Little kid Kevin and Randall are so adorable. I loved Randall emphatically saying Yes! when the puppet asked him if he liked to read books. Too cute.

I also liked Kevin telling Randall he was still drunk when he said Kevin's painting looked like a Pollock.

Randall finally apologized to Kevin! That was cathartic.

Also nice that Kevin acknowledged he resented and was envious of Randall for not only being smart and successful but also Black. It sounds like it was all wrapped up in his mind as a whole.

Now that I know about the ghost kingdoms, Randall and his ghost mom make a little more sense.

The Kids on this show are terrific!  And the Teen Kevin & Randall were also terrific in their scenes...the casting for these kids has been spot on.

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8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Guess the writer's forgot that Randall said their father died ashamed of Kevin. 

Randall specifically apologized for it and said that Jack had been proud of Kevin.  He had made that original statement after Kevin had said that if he had been at the fire, Jack wouldn't have died, meaning it was Randall's fault.  They both had said awful things.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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Just now, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Randall specifically apologized for it and said that Jack had been proud of Kevin.  He had made that original statement after Kevin had said that if he had been at the fire, Jack wouldn't have died, meaning it was Randall's fault.  They both had said awful things.

I was watching on delay and posted before the end. I'm glad he did apologise.  Funny, for me it rang as hollow as he thought Kevin's apology did.

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4 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

I hope they stay in this better place going forward, though, because I'm over their fight.

Yes please! From your lips to the writer's ears.

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14 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I’m so not surprised that this was about forty minutes of Kevin saying sorry while Randall gives lectures about his many struggles and his whole house full of ghost relatives (no word on if Randall skinny dips with all of them) and about five minutes, if I’m being generous, of Randall apologizing back. He at least acknowledged that the comment about Jack being disappointed in him was awful. He’s still unapologetic about guilting Rebecca into that drug trail though I guess. 

Already covered in the season premiere (Randall actually apologized directly to Rebecca). But I guess it's easier for character hatred to blind the haters from the facts 😁

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Well, that all happened. I was sort of expecting for Tom Hanks to show up as Mr Rogers, or some random stand hand introduced himself as Michael Douglas (real name of Michael Keaton who did work there.) 

 

I’m glad that they hashed things out. It was long overdue.

38 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

He’s still unapologetic about guilting Rebecca into that drug trail though I guess. 

yeah, that bugged. That was the reason we had that blow up to begin with. Granted, we wouldn’t have had this conversation now (and all the more poignant since last season’s finale.) However, Randall didn’t own up that he pushed Rebecca into something she was not comfortable with.

The other part that I sort of wished was addressed that if Randall felt Kevin had resented him, Randall would not have reached out to him first when he had that panic attack a few years ago. 

Edited by mtlchick
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I loved it. I thought both actors did a fantastic job and the writing was wonderful. It really came off and was filmed like a play. I liked the larger picture that both boys represent and the fact that it raised some uncomfortable feelings and questions. Should Kevin also feel “lucky” and “grateful” that he was born? No, no one expects him to, it just is. So why the same for Randall? I am glad that Randall apologized too and I hope going forward he gives Kevin more words of affirmation because he needs that and I hope Kevin keeps telling Randall like it is because he needs to be told he’s not perfect. They’re a good pair, the two brothers and I hope they now will realize that. 

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Not that I expected to see her during the Teen years but where was Sophie? Weren’t she and Kevin still married then? 

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Just now, LizDC said:

Weren’t she and Kevin still married then? 

I think he left her in New York when he went out to LA.  They were still married, but trying to make it work long distance. 

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Kevin should be thankful that his parents did adopt Randall.  Otherwise, who would be around to remind him what an awful person he was or to condescendingly lecture him about how he just doesn't understand Randall's pain.  Geez.  Randall's incessant need for those around him to self flagellate is growing tiresome.  To think, Randall was once my favorite character on this show.  Those days are long gone. 

Could young Kevin be a jerk to Randall? Yes.  But, this show seems to completely gloss over that we have seen many times that Randall could give back as good as he got.  He belittled Kevin quite often for his lack of academic accomplishment.  To say this was all one sided, ignores the show's history.  Randall relished in his favored status.  He could do no wrong in Jack's and especially Rebecca's eye and he wouldn't let Kevin forget it.    

1 hour ago, t7686 said:

Should Kevin also feel “lucky” and “grateful” that he was born? No, no one expects him to, it just is. So why the same for Randall?

I think the "lucky/grateful" aspect comes from the fact that Randall was born to two addicts.  While Randall can dream about what life would have been like and go skinny dipping with his dead mother, the truth is that life for a child with two addict parents is not going to be a bed of roses.  Is it possible that William and/or Laurel come have gotten clean and been responsible parents?  Absolutely.  Is it likely? No, at least not during Randall's early years.  I think Randall is suffering from "the grass is always greener" syndrome.   The truth is Jack and Rebecca provided him with a very comfortable life.  Was it perfect? No.  But, as Kevin rightly pointed out, Randall was always the golden child who could do no wrong in their parents' eyes. 

 

35 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I hate the way this show handles adoption. So many of Randall’s issues stem from being adopted, but he hasn’t been concerned in years about any issues Deja might have. He was adopted as a baby. She was adopted as a teen. Being abandoned at a fire station is traumatic, obviously. But I think being rejected by a mother who has known you your entire life is equally traumatic, if not worse. He’s allowed to be bitter about everything, meanwhile he hasn’t even shown Deja that he cares about her more than he cares about her boyfriend. She had to point out to him that he should care about her first. I think Randall thinks being adopted was complicated for him, but Deja should just feel lucky to have been adopted by him.

I hadn't thought of this, but this is an excellent point.  I very much wish that Kevin had made the point to Randall as well.  

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I am just over all of Randall’s demands for apologies from everyone. Period . Full stop. Seriously?  Any chance there is some point in the future Randall takes ownership of his life? 

also, I was ready to cut a bitch in Jack. You take 2 kids out of 3 to meet Mr Rogers?  Yah, even Mr. Rogers would look at you sideways for that move!

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1 hour ago, Jeddah said:

It always bothers me that everyone forgets Kyle. Randall wants acknowledgement that he lost his birth parents the day he was adopted. Rebecca and Jack’s baby had just died. Kate and Kevin lost their third triplet. Talk about a ghost world. What if Kyle had survived? I’m sure Randall doesn’t care because the only victim in any situation is Randall, and Randall alone.

I hate the way this show handles adoption. So many of Randall’s issues stem from being adopted, but he hasn’t been concerned in years about any issues Deja might have. He was adopted as a baby. She was adopted as a teen. Being abandoned at a fire station is traumatic, obviously. But I think being rejected by a mother who has known you your entire life is equally traumatic, if not worse. He’s allowed to be bitter about everything, meanwhile he hasn’t even shown Deja that he cares about her more than he cares about her boyfriend. She had to point out to him that he should care about her first. I think Randall thinks being adopted was complicated for him, but Deja should just feel lucky to have been adopted by him.

I wish I could like this 1000 times. 

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Quote

Has no one ever honestly asked Randall why he thinks a childhood with his birth parents would have been so idyllic, considering his mom went to jail and both were addicts?

I think that last scene was more about Randall finally being able to see his ghost kingdom with his real parents, instead of the librarian and the meteorologist. 

Quote

"ghost kingdom" sounds like a terrible idea.

It's a term coined by a therapist working with adopted patients. In the group, someone said she'd moved on from hers. Perhaps now that Randall can see his real parents in his fantasy, he'll be able to move beyond it, too.

I also hope that this isn't a one-and-done about the bros reconciling their past. I think the emphasis was on Randall getting what he needed here, but there's plenty more than saying Jack was proud of Kevin that he can (and hopefully will) give to Kevin.

Edited by buttersister
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3 minutes ago, maggiemae said:

Good grief - Kevin has new twins and HE needs to travel across country?

Of course, because Randall cannot be expected to take on the burden of being his brother's best man unless Kevin comes to him and atones for all the "sins" he committed as a child.

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11 minutes ago, coconspirator said:

Adoptees have complicated feelings. Yea, it is often for the best that they are placed with a different family but that doesn’t negate the grief experienced by the loss of their history and “what might have been.” I think it goes along with what Randall said about the expectation of 100% gratitude at all times. It’s possible to love and appreciate an adoptive family and to mourn what never was, and sometimes adoptive families don’t make space for those feelings or will take it personally.

I hear you.  But the family made space for Randall. When is he going to make space for them?!! He’s exhausting. 

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Kevin was an athlete until oops.

Randall got the education.

Kate got being daddy's girl.

sigh 

Why not bring this up show?

 

 

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1 hour ago, camom said:

Yeah, Kevin wasn't great to Randall as they were growing up, but I think most of it was just sibling stuff and had nothing to do with race or adoption. Not everything is about race (although lots of people seem to be under that impression).  I miss the Randall of the first couple of seasons; I liked him.  Current Randall is insufferable.

It's not always about race. But, Randall grew up feeling like the "other" in the family and that was about race. That's how the world saw him within the family. 

On top of that, Kevin was constantly making him feel like an outsider in his own home. And on top of that, judging his blackness with comments like I know more about rap than you. That sounds silly but it's also something called black checking which feels awful coming from your own family. Also, from your white brother. 

 

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32 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

It's not always about race. But, Randall grew up feeling like the "other" in the family and that was about race. That's how the world saw him within the family. 

On top of that, Kevin was constantly making him feel like an outsider in his own home. And on top of that, judging his blackness with comments like I know more about rap than you. That sounds silly but it's also something called black checking which feels awful coming from your own family. Also, from your white brother. 

 

And then, on top of all that, when they were adults that really hadn’t spoke much in years, it was up to Randall to run away from a great job on the first day to save Kevin from a panic attack.......oh wait, I’ve got that backwards.  
Again, I ask, how many apologies does grown up Randall need before he owns & apologizes for his own stuff?

Edited by pennben
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2 hours ago, Jeddah said:

It always bothers me that everyone forgets Kyle. Randall wants acknowledgement that he lost his birth parents the day he was adopted. Rebecca and Jack’s baby had just died. Kate and Kevin lost their third triplet. Talk about a ghost world. What if Kyle had survived? I’m sure Randall doesn’t care because the only victim in any situation is Randall, and Randall alone.

really hope that when Rebecca starts getting more dementia-y, we get an episode from her point of view - even though it sounds horrible, I want to see her imagine a world with Kyle.

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

I'm neither a psychiatrist nor an adoption expert, so maybe I'm missing something, but the "ghost kingdom" sounds like a terrible idea. How is wallowing in self-delusion supposed to help anyone? While Randall was imagining the idyllic dinner scene, I was imagining William and Laurel passed out in a flophouse and little Randall licking their heroin spoons because he hasn't been fed all day.

From what they were saying, it sounded like something the adoptees had as young children, then it went away - except for Randall, because he is a walking DSM.

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6 hours ago, Jeddah said:

It always bothers me that everyone forgets Kyle. Randall wants acknowledgement that he lost his birth parents the day he was adopted. Rebecca and Jack’s baby had just died. Kate and Kevin lost their third triplet. Talk about a ghost world. What if Kyle had survived? I’m sure Randall doesn’t care because the only victim in any situation is Randall, and Randall alone.

I hate the way this show handles adoption. So many of Randall’s issues stem from being adopted, but he hasn’t been concerned in years about any issues Deja might have. He was adopted as a baby. She was adopted as a teen. Being abandoned at a fire station is traumatic, obviously. But I think being rejected by a mother who has known you your entire life is equally traumatic, if not worse. He’s allowed to be bitter about everything, meanwhile he hasn’t even shown Deja that he cares about her more than he cares about her boyfriend. She had to point out to him that he should care about her first. I think Randall thinks being adopted was complicated for him, but Deja should just feel lucky to have been adopted by him.

I thought Kevin would mention Kyle when he said "You're the only brother I ever had" really "knew".  They really ghost him in a way because it was just a vehicle for Randall. Kevin had a ghost too of his twin! And we don't know Randall wouldn't have had that fantasy at the end, because addicts do clean up and people change. They had his mom die but it could have been okay. There have been a lot of success stories with the ones that aren't.

I thought the best part was Mr Rogers...my dream would have been to be Jack and take my kids. ; )  I loved Randall and Daniel Tiger.

The fight as teens where Kevin was a jerk and struggling and the hot pockets was the best discussion.  I still feel it was real in other parts but a lot of filler between commercials. I understand realism but we have 40 min or so, with flashbacks, adult conversation wouldn't be as long and did he have to lock himself out so we had the walk and conversation with the neighbor?  I do feel Randall/writers were addressing the white people who write how grateful he should be without addressing how awkward it is to be in his place. When someone doesn't think Randall belongs, Jack is there to explain and smooth it over but overcompensates. He never addresses anything to Kevin about Randall and how others will see him even in a light handed way. With all the racism in our country, he had to know that Randall felt it at school, at the store, with girlfriends. That he hid it isn't an excuse for his parents to be that blind. My kids are biracial and they have known kids who were Asian and black adopted by white parents. Except for one , they didn't act like they wouldn't meet other challenges and it seemed to make them happier and able to talk about their feelings better when teens and beyond.  Kevin and Randall didn't seem to be pals at all and why they didn't share any friends growing up was because? Did Kevin's friends never want to spend time with Randall or play a board game? Did Randall have friends? Never showed any at all.  I can see anxiety issues growing as a child and never really being addressed. I wished they addressed Kevin helping him once last night but it was sadly one of the few bonding moments we ever saw.  I still tear up at him holding Randall in his arms comforting him. Why it was never discussed Randall was black in the family was beyond odd but other than that marital arts episode, it seemed like ignoring it and covering up things, Kyle, brothers, fathers, was the norm.

They love each other and I hope we don't have to go through this with Kate (insufferable as it would be) but glad it is out in the open. I feel they had even less interaction sadly and Kate only had "her twin" which wasn't right either.

Edited by debraran
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Glad Kevin and Randall finally talked but the episode felt forced and like the show is trying too hard to be woke and all inclusive to the point that the show itself feels like a ghost show to earlier seasons.

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