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S01.E02: The Star-Spangled Man

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This is the topic for discussion of the episode, NOT for discussion of the MC Universe and movies. Please take conversation for the movies and the larger universe to The Marvel Saga topic; next step will be post removal, followed by further sanctions as deemed necessary. Thank you.

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From the Something Awful forum by someone who has a PhD in critical race theory:

Quote

F&WS walked the audience through the last 80 years of African-American history in the United States in about 5 minutes with two scenes.

Marvel television did not come to play.

 

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11 hours ago, lawrbk said:

Yes I am aware these things happen. And way too much. That’s what I said. But I didn’t want to write a lengthy paragraph to get to the main point. I felt it seemed forced and didn’t flow organically. It seemed the police had to come, narratively, to arrest Bucky to lead to everything else and so let’s add another aspect to show how sam is disrespected despite being an Avenger. Which we got in the bank. And that it took focus away from Isaiah’s story that they were arguing about on the street. Because his story is a LOT more and who knows if they’ll get back to him though I think, and hope, they will. Especially because Carl Lumbly hit it out of the park. But there’s a finite amount of time. And the street scene it still felt forced and too long. Sorry. Maybe if they’d rolled up and said to Bucky ‘is this guy bothering you?’ and started but then got the info to pick Bucky up. But it’s jMO on the scene not real world events. 

8 hours ago, Dani said:

They didn’t say “is this guy bothering you” immediately but, for me, the scene played out exactly that way narratively. They saw a black man and a white man in a heated conversation pulled up and immediately focused on Sam. 

The show is fundamentally about race and what it is like to be black in the world today. That’s not something you show with one scene. Does racism ever flow organically in real life? There nothing organic about looking at a person and immediately being suspicious because of their skin color. It is forced and deliberate. 

Dani has a point. The literal exchange:

Cop1: Hey
Sam: What's up, man?
Cop2: Is there a problem here?
Sam: No, we're just talking. Bucky: We're fine.
Cop1: Can I see your ID?
Sam: I don't have ID. Why? Bucky: Man, seriously?
Cop1: Ok, sir just calm down. (As he puts his one hand out toward Sam and the other on his holster.) <--- * Not that long.

*That right there. They saw an upset black man and immediately thought "danger" and pulled over. Sam expresses minor annoyance and they see "angry black man". Which only adds to the Isaiah story, a black super soldier? Of course more than HYDRA was scared of a black powerful man. No wonder he's hiding and has his son or grandson blocking access to him. 
Narratively, Bucky was likely going to be around Sam when he got arrested, just because of how much he was dogging Sam about taking up the shield. The fact that it happened during a messed up racially biased stop, could seem coincidental but not that out there.

While the scene at the bank last episode was partially racial, it wasn't just that. It was also about banks not being there to help people, especially those with financial issues (no matter what the reason). It was about Sam not having caught up with how much has changed in the 5 years he didn't exist. Both scenes in each episode also show how much access to privilege Sam has compared to the average black man, because of who he is and knows (which also would be be increased if he took the Captain America mantle by the way). Sam knew he didn't have to give the cops his ID, but also refused. Whereas a lot of black people would try to get through the stop as quick as possible and not show anger in front of the police. (I say as a Black woman).

Marvel does a good job of having scenes have multiple layers, this show is no exception. 

 

13 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Or, in my head canon, when Fury found out is when Isaiah was released. Not much Fury could do but let him be, but I like to think he tried to give Isaiah what peace he could.

12 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Isiah would have been released before Fury was in a position to find out about him.  He was still in the rank and file back in the 90s in Captain Marvel.  

We still don't know when Isaiah's 30 year jail term was or the exact excuse for it, nor if it was under SHIELD, the military, or another organization. I do hope we get more of his story in this series, but I'd also love for him to get his own series. Which considering his son/grandson's ties to another Marvel story, could happen. Maybe. *fingers crossed*
I do think we'll see him again before this series is done though, this is like showing a gun in Act 1. Next two episodes are Act 2, last two are Act 3, is my guess.

Edited by Check Sanity · Reason: clarity
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11 hours ago, Dani said:

They didn’t say “is this guy bothering you” immediately but, for me, the scene played out exactly that way narratively. They saw a black man and a white man in a heated conversation pulled up and immediately focused on Sam. 

The show is fundamentally about race and what it is like to be black in the world today. That’s not something you show with one scene. Does racism ever flow organically in real life? There nothing organic about looking at a person and immediately being suspicious because of their skin color. It is forced and deliberate. 

I get what you’re saying and don’t fundamentally disagree. But, for me, as a viewer, it just felt forced. That’s all. Obviously real life plays out differently. And my views on real world issues like it aren’t what I’m referencing here. I’m just referring to a tv show, and ONE scene within said show. And I’m obviously not explaining myself well so I’ll just leave it at that.

and maybe it’s because I know the story but I really would’ve preferred, again, as a viewer, to have heard more about Isaiah’s backstory. Given Elijah Bradley’s appearance (though I don’t think he was referenced by name in the show yet) at his grandfather’s I have hope they’ll return to him. Because the show is about a lot of things, race being prominent, but the look into the past will, I think, play a large part in Sam’s eventual decision. As was his earlier talk with Rhodey. 

Edited by lawrbk

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...yeah, real live plays out differently. I real live, there is a high likelihood that Sam would have been shot, just like the half a dozen black people who "accidentally" got killed by the police last year and all the others which got killed in the years before. Granted, he wasn't sleeping or sitting on his own sofa, because this is apparently the most dangerous thing you can do as a black person in the US.

Like, NONE of this is in any way unusual. They are in a run-down primarily black neighbourhood in Baltimore. Increased Police presence is extremely likely there. That the police would interfere when they saw two men arguing on the street under the assumption that the black guy is a problem is also pretty likely. None of this is unusual (though naturally part of the point was to ensure that Sam would go near Bucky's therapist...that's the part which felt a little bit forced to me, that the therapist would turn up and force Sam into a session, because THAT actually is unusual).

Edited by swanpride
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I'm looking forward to hearing someone tell FauxCap that he doesn't have the ass of America.

I like the therapist enough but would have loved the role to be filled by Shoreh Aghadashloo. 

I'm waiting for the line from episode one to come back, "you can't punch your way out of this", some heavy foreshadowing there I thought.

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Please tell me I am not the only person bothered by people snapped out of existence being referred to as The Blip? 

/blip/
noun
1.
an unexpected, minor, and typically temporary deviation from a general trend.

 

It was NOT minor, and conveys the essence of hand waving IMO. Half of the universe being gone for 5 years is NOT A BLIP. 

<rant over>

As a former band geek, I was dancing in my seat at the marching band "theme song" for this episode. SQUEE! 

Also, I am sure Wyatt Russell is a nice human being and good actor, but his face and body is just ALL wrong as Cap. I suppose that's the point. 

Finally, I am #marvelforlife, but I've never read the comics. Can anyone comment on if all the movies/tv shows stay true to the comics? Or do they take liberties with them? Do the comics spoil it for you? 

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1 hour ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

Please tell me I am not the only person bothered by people snapped out of existence being referred to as The Blip?

They've been calling it The Blip since Spider-Man Far From Home.

I'm not really bothered, it's a stupid name but, what else is new, in this 24-hour news cycle/social media world?  I guess they couldn't find away to work crisis,  'ogeden or 'pocalypse into it 😂 

Blip does describe it perfectly from the dusted POV. To them, no time has passed, so perhaps Blip is what they termed it?

Edited by Morrigan2575
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I can't stop listening to the marching band version of "Star Spangled Man". I hope it's actually played in real games.

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I mostly can't get used to it, because to me it will always be the Snap. But since next to nobody actually saw the snap happening in-universe, I guess "blip" makes sense.

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1 hour ago, swanpride said:

I mostly can't get used to it, because to me it will always be the Snap. But since next to nobody actually saw the snap happening in-universe, I guess "blip" makes sense.

 I called it the snap and snapture up until Spider-Man and Frankly I hated the term The Blip (stupid name). 

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2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

They've been calling it The Blip since Spider-Man Far From Home.

I'm not really bothered, it's a stupid name but, what else is new, in this 24-hour news cycle/social media world?  I guess they couldn't find away to work crisis,  'ogeden or 'pocalypse into it 😂 

Blip does describe it perfectly from the dusted POV. To them, no time has passed, so perhaps Blip is what they termed it?

Ha I haven't seen Far from Home in a long while so 🤷‍♀️

The Snap just makes more sense b/c that's what happened...and I know they do say that from time to time. 

Blip just doesn't make any sense, and to me, minimizes the (fictitious)people who went thru it. 

At the end of the day it's NBD. Just one of those "huh?" things...

I do love Snapture though! LOL

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I just realised why this "when he is wrong about you he is wrong about me" line is so effective...it's the way how Bucky's voice breaks on the "me". First class acting.

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The Blip gets on my nerves. Like I'm pretty sure reddit and YouTube or something like it is a thing in the MCU. The Snapture would have taken flight. Okay, maybe they don't know it was a snap but I think that info would be passed around pretty quick by those in the know. My point is, there would be a better name than blip which only makes sense for the people that came back and it was like that for them. What did they call it in the meantime? Don't remember if Endgame had a name for it.

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4 hours ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

Finally, I am #marvelforlife, but I've never read the comics. Can anyone comment on if all the movies/tv shows stay true to the comics? Or do they take liberties with them? Do the comics spoil it for you? 

The perfect place for discussing this question is in The Marvel Saga topic. Thank you!

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3 hours ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

Blip just doesn't make any sense, and to me, minimizes the (fictitious)people who went thru it. 

I realized during Wandavision that calling it The Blip makes sense for the people that disappeared for five years, because from their POV they blinked and the world changed. My thought is that the half that had to deal with life during the five years is more likely to hate the name since it makes light of their experience.

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Calling what happened the Blip does make sense when you realize that humans tend to undersell when naming huge events--Cold War, The Troubles (my personal favorite), etc.  

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The show is fundamentally about race and what it is like to be black in the world today. That’s not something you show with one scene. Does racism ever flow organically in real life? There nothing organic about looking at a person and immediately being suspicious because of their skin color. It is forced and deliberate. 

 

It's interesting how many focused on the police's behavior toward Sam and Bucky; yet no one wants to discuss Bucky's earlier behavior toward Sam when he ignored the latter and inserted himself into the Germany mission without consent.  As if he had the right to do so.  Right now, Bucky Barnes is at the top of my s**t list.

 

Quote

Bucky didn't really force himself onto the mission. Sam willingly shared what he was about to do.

So what?  That did not mean Bucky had the right to join that mission.  Period.  You know what?  This series is already a disaster to me.  I'm through.

 

Edited by LJones41

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Question, despite the presentation at the Smithsonian, it's not public knowledge  that Cap handed the shield and the title of Captain America to Sam?

'Cause if it was that HBCU marching band would have had nothing to do with the guy who took the shield.   

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It's interesting how many focused on the police's behavior toward Sam and Bucky; yet no one wants to discuss Bucky's earlier behavior toward Sam when he ignored the latter and inserted himself into the Germany mission without consent.  As if he had the right to do so.  Right now, Bucky Barnes is at the top of my s**t list.

Not sure how one is related to the other. Frankly, this sounds like the strangest Whatsaboutism I ever read. But the simple explanation is: Bucky and Sam know each other, and if Sam had really wanted to get rid of him, Bucky wouldn't have been on the flight at all. Not all consent is verbal. Sam said that he was busy (because he was) but above all he wanted Bucky to understand why he did, what he did.

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I have two questions about what the government 'owns' in this show. The current shield is clearly different from the one the government made for Steve in WWII, and I'm not certain the government would have a claim on it. So did Sam donate it to the Smithsonian or loan it to the Smithsonian? Because I think it's still his if he was simply loaned it to the museum.

Second, how was Redwing government property? His flight suit from Winter Soldier was owned by the government, but would they own a suit that Stark built based on the original?

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If Sam accepts the government claim of ownership, even if it's not legally accurate, it's as good as true because he won't fight it. He didn't challenge Walker's claim here, and when Bucky suggested taking back the shield, they both spoke as if they considered it a bit of theft to do so. I believe Sam even mentioned the "last time we stole the shield."  

I'm not even sure the government ever even owned the original. Stark made it as a civilian contractor, right? And he made a bunch of them. Are they in Stark storage or government storage?

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1 hour ago, Captain Carrot said:

I have two questions about what the government 'owns' in this show. The current shield is clearly different from the one the government made for Steve in WWII, and I'm not certain the government would have a claim on it. So did Sam donate it to the Smithsonian or loan it to the Smithsonian? Because I think it's still his if he was simply loaned it to the museum.

Second, how was Redwing government property? His flight suit from Winter Soldier was owned by the government, but would they own a suit that Stark built based on the original?

Cap's shield for this series is not and has never been government property based on what we have seen.  The shield Steve gave Sam came out of Steve's travels through time.  There is no clear chain of ownership from the US government to Steve to Sam.  Even his broken shield was Stark tech and may never have technically been US Government property.  I highly doubt Howard Stark would give away his tech.  He would let them borrow it, but not own.  Then you have the Smithsonian which is an independent organization and has never been part of the government.  Sam either donated or loaned the shield to them.  Turning around and giving it to Walker is highly unethical and probably also illegal as well.  Time will tell what Sam intends to do about it. 

 

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4 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I'm not even sure the government ever even owned the original. Stark made it as a civilian contractor, right? And he made a bunch of them. Are they in Stark storage or government storage?

Howard only made one shield because there was only enough vibranium for one shield. 

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1 hour ago, Dani said:

Howard only made one shield because there was only enough vibranium for one shield. 

Howard made a fuckton of shields but only the one was made of vibranium. And when Steve went towards it, Howard was all 'no no, that's a prototype' and then explained that it was all the vibranium he had. I did always like that scene in Ultron when Bruce read out Wakanda (poorly) and Steve and Tony looked at each other and had that quiet fierce conversation about how Howard got the last of the vibranium that came out of there.

How would one follow the trail of ownership, though? Howard made that shield working for? with? the SSR. The SSR became Shield. When Civil War happened, Steve dropped the shield and Tony took possession of it and only brought it back for Steve during Endgame. And then Old Steve gave it, or something akin to it, to Sam. Sam then gave it to the Smithsonian. And then Bearded Government Dickweed gave it to John Walker.

As for the Smithsonian, a quick search resulted in this: 

The Smithsonian Institution is considered unique in the Federal establishment. The Smithsonian is not an executive branch agency and does not exercise regulatory powers, except over its own buildings and grounds. Thus, courts have held that the Smithsonian is not an agency or authority of the Government as those terms are used in certain laws applicable to executive branch agencies such as the Privacy Act, the Administrative Procedure Act, the Freedom of Information Act, and the Federal Advisory Committee Act. However, the U.S. Attorney General has concluded that the Smithsonian is so "closely connected" to the federal government that it shares the immunity of the United States from state and local regulation. In accordance with this doctrine, local zoning regulations, ABC licensing provisions, sales and use taxes, and real estate taxes are not applicable to the Smithsonian absent a specific federal statute. (There are several instances in which Congress has required federal entities to comply with state and local laws, so questions about the applicability of specific state and local laws to the Smithsonian should be directed to the Office of General Counsel.)

Now, actual real life legality is not something the MCU worries too deeply about (see Legal Eagle's video on Civil War for example) but also how many things in the Smithsonian can still be used in combat? I don't see anyone pulling out the Spirit of St. Louis to actually fly around in but, I mean, who knows? Still, Sam donated that shield... it should not have gone anywhere else without his say so.

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8 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Howard made a fuckton of shields but only the one was made of vibranium. And when Steve went towards it, Howard was all 'no no, that's a prototype' and then explained that it was all the vibranium he had.

Yes, I know. My point is that there was only one of the shield that we recognize as Captain America’s shield. 

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7 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Howard made a fuckton of shields but only the one was made of vibranium. And when Steve went towards it, Howard was all 'no no, that's a prototype' and then explained that it was all the vibranium he had. I did always like that scene in Ultron when Bruce read out Wakanda (poorly) and Steve and Tony looked at each other and had that quiet fierce conversation about how Howard got the last of the vibranium that came out of there.

How would one follow the trail of ownership, though? Howard made that shield working for? with? the SSR. The SSR became Shield. When Civil War happened, Steve dropped the shield and Tony took possession of it and only brought it back for Steve during Endgame. And then Old Steve gave it, or something akin to it, to Sam. Sam then gave it to the Smithsonian. And then Bearded Government Dickweed gave it to John Walker.

As for the Smithsonian, a quick search resulted in this: 

The Smithsonian Institution is considered unique in the Federal establishment. The Smithsonian is not an executive branch agency and does not exercise regulatory powers, except over its own buildings and grounds. Thus, courts have held that the Smithsonian is not an agency or authority of the Government as those terms are used in certain laws applicable to executive branch agencies such as the Privacy Act, the Administrative Procedure Act, the Freedom of Information Act, and the Federal Advisory Committee Act. However, the U.S. Attorney General has concluded that the Smithsonian is so "closely connected" to the federal government that it shares the immunity of the United States from state and local regulation. In accordance with this doctrine, local zoning regulations, ABC licensing provisions, sales and use taxes, and real estate taxes are not applicable to the Smithsonian absent a specific federal statute. (There are several instances in which Congress has required federal entities to comply with state and local laws, so questions about the applicability of specific state and local laws to the Smithsonian should be directed to the Office of General Counsel.)

Now, actual real life legality is not something the MCU worries too deeply about (see Legal Eagle's video on Civil War for example) but also how many things in the Smithsonian can still be used in combat? I don't see anyone pulling out the Spirit of St. Louis to actually fly around in but, I mean, who knows? Still, Sam donated that shield... it should not have gone anywhere else without his say so.

If the MCU wants to say that the Smithsonian is a government agency, I can buy that.  The average American probably does not even know that they are separate entities.  What really kills me though is the thought that the Smithsonian employees have zero ethics in regards to what they did with the shield.  Immediately giving the shield a living donor donated to Walker without the donor's consent has severe ethical implications for the institution.  Like no one will ever donate anything to them again or previous donors demanding their stuff back, etc.  Their credibility is now shot and it could kill the museum.  

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13 hours ago, xaxat said:

Question, despite the presentation at the Smithsonian, it's not public knowledge  that Cap handed the shield and the title of Captain America to Sam?

'Cause if it was that HBCU marching band would have had nothing to do with the guy who took the shield.   

I assume that the ceremony at the Smithsonian made it public knowledge that Cap gave Sam the shield and that Sam channeled Indy and said "that belongs in a museum." I doubt people necessarily know the implications that Cap wanted Sam to be Cap 2.0.

I would assume the HBCU would still have participated in the event. After all, a) Sam did give up the shield willingly as opposed to the powers that be saying "gotta give it to a white guy" and b) a gig's a gig.

13 hours ago, swanpride said:

Not sure how one is related to the other. Frankly, this sounds like the strangest Whatsaboutism I ever read. But the simple explanation is: Bucky and Sam know each other, and if Sam had really wanted to get rid of him, Bucky wouldn't have been on the flight at all. Not all consent is verbal. Sam said that he was busy (because he was) but above all he wanted Bucky to understand why he did, what he did.

I don't necessarily agree with the viewpoint, but it's pretty entitled to think "I'm going to insert myself in your business so I can bitch at you about something on your mind." That is arguably what friends do from time to time, but Bucky and Sam aren't really friends like that. It isn't a crazy take to see the entitlement as a form of white privilege.

6 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

I have two questions about what the government 'owns' in this show. The current shield is clearly different from the one the government made for Steve in WWII, and I'm not certain the government would have a claim on it. So did Sam donate it to the Smithsonian or loan it to the Smithsonian? Because I think it's still his if he was simply loaned it to the museum.

Second, how was Redwing government property? His flight suit from Winter Soldier was owned by the government, but would they own a suit that Stark built based on the original?

I'm under the impression Sam donated it to the museum.

I guess it's possible that either Tony designed the Falcon 2.0 suit for the government or with government resources. Or the suit is based on intellectual property from the government?

5 hours ago, Ailianna said:

If Sam accepts the government claim of ownership, even if it's not legally accurate, it's as good as true because he won't fight it. He didn't challenge Walker's claim here, and when Bucky suggested taking back the shield, they both spoke as if they considered it a bit of theft to do so. I believe Sam even mentioned the "last time we stole the shield."  

I'm not even sure the government ever even owned the original. Stark made it as a civilian contractor, right? And he made a bunch of them. Are they in Stark storage or government storage?

Howard Stark made the shield out of vibranium that the U.S. owned. He made a bunch of other types of shields, but there was only one vibranium one.

5 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Cap's shield for this series is not and has never been government property based on what we have seen.  The shield Steve gave Sam came out of Steve's travels through time.  There is no clear chain of ownership from the US government to Steve to Sam.  Even his broken shield was Stark tech and may never have technically been US Government property.  I highly doubt Howard Stark would give away his tech.  He would let them borrow it, but not own.  Then you have the Smithsonian which is an independent organization and has never been part of the government.  Sam either donated or loaned the shield to them.  Turning around and giving it to Walker is highly unethical and probably also illegal as well.  Time will tell what Sam intends to do about it. 

 

The shield Steve gave Sam was plucked from a previous time and brought to 2023. But that shield was still created from the vibranium the government owned in the 40s. The broken shield was the original version that Howard Stark fashioned from government property. Howard Stark didn't own the metal; the government did. If you follow that line of logic, Sam was never truly in a position to donate the shield to the Smithsonian any more than someone would be to donate a library book they've checked out to another library.

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2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Like no one will ever donate anything to them again or previous donors demanding their stuff back, etc.  Their credibility is now shot and it could kill the museum.  

Sam forgot to sign the Smithsonia Accords

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Rewatching the episode now. It occurs to me that Sam probably wasn't expecting Bucky to jump out of the plane without a chute.

Maybe he didn't put up resistance to Bucky tagging along on his mission because he was expecting Bucky to have a pointless plane ride.

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4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I assume that the ceremony at the Smithsonian made it public knowledge that Cap gave Sam the shield and that Sam channeled Indy and said "that belongs in a museum." I doubt people necessarily know the implications that Cap wanted Sam to be Cap 2.0.

I would assume the HBCU would still have participated in the event. After all, a) Sam did give up the shield willingly as opposed to the powers that be saying "gotta give it to a white guy" and b) a gig's a gig.

If it was public knowledge that Cap gave Sam the shield and that Sam, in turn, donated it to the Smithsonian. And a little while later a white guy who wasn't an Avenger and wasn't present at the fight against Thanos is bearing the shield then all hell would break loose. Because a lot of people, including most African Americans (and me) would assume that it was stolen. 

And given that the Secretary of Defense lied to Sam about their plans, it was.

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I hope that we will get a few scenes regarding how regular people feel about the situation.

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On 3/30/2021 at 7:21 PM, swanpride said:

I just realised why this "when he is wrong about you he is wrong about me" line is so effective...it's the way how Bucky's voice breaks on the "me". First class acting.

For me it's his face right after he's said it and sinks back - damn it, Bucky Barnes remains so many of my favourite character tropes all rolled into one. I also really liked Sam's "You finished?" after that. They spend so much of the time snarking and being annoyed at each other, but those two words, they were said kindly.

I think they're doing a pretty good job of selling the frenemy angle. Yeah, they aggravate each other constantly, but there's also the sense that they do have each other's backs. When that cop asked Bucky whether Sam was bothering him it would've been easy for him to just go "Hell yeah he is, all the time" without even realising what danger that would put Sam in. And Sam didn't have to go to the police station for Bucky, but he did, thanking the therapist for getting him out.

And man, that scene in the police station with Walker... If I hadn't disliked him before, that would've done it. Smugly smiling and posing for selfies? Calling Bucky 'asset'? "Do what you gotta do with him and then send him off to me"? They've really nailed creating a character who's just what Erskine *didn't* want when they were looking for the right person.

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The way Walker half giggled and pretended to be embarrassed when saying he was the ultimate authority . . . He can die anytime now.

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13 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

The way Walker half giggled and pretended to be embarrassed when saying he was the ultimate authority . . . He can die anytime now.

I think I said "Oh, go **** yourself" out loud at that.

Edited by Schweedie
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51 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

The way Walker half giggled and pretended to be embarrassed when saying he was the ultimate authority . . . He can die anytime now.

I think the bit that pissed me off the most was him and his buddy lounging on that cop car and using the siren to get Sam and Bucky's attention - both as an example of the absurd levels of privilege Walker has, and as a nasty bit of mockery after Sam almost got arrested and Bucky did get arrested.

Maybe he's just a blockhead, which seems very possible, but it was very much 'I can get away with whatever I like, and you guys can't.'

He could still go either way - his apparent decency could win out and he could realise he's not fit to be Captain America, or he could go off the deep end in his futile quest to prove his worth and end up becoming the bad guy. 

6 hours ago, Schweedie said:

For me it's his face right after he's said it and sinks back - damn it, Bucky Barnes remains so many of my favourite character tropes all rolled into one. I also really liked Sam's "You finished?" after that. They spend so much of the time snarking and being annoyed at each other, but those two words, they were said kindly.

The moody, 'you don't understand my pain' loner is done to death as a trope, but I always appreciate it when it's done with a character who also gets shit done. Bucky isn't hiding or expecting anyone to feel sorry for him, he's trying to make amends for what he's done. Even though he believes he never can, he's still going to fucking try because... what else is he going to do?

The quixotic nature of him (especially in the comics) is what made him such a compelling character. Despite him having every right to feel like the world owes him for all he went through, he never does. He always frames his past as "what I did" not "what was done to me."

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7 hours ago, Schweedie said:

And man, that scene in the police station with Walker... If I hadn't disliked him before, that would've done it. Smugly smiling and posing for selfies? Calling Bucky 'asset'? "Do what you gotta do with him and then send him off to me"? They've really nailed creating a character who's just what Erskine *didn't* want when they were looking for the right person.

The worst for me way the douchey way he sort of pointed to himself when the doctor asked who authorized Bucky skipping out of scheduled therapy.

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20 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't necessarily agree with the viewpoint, but it's pretty entitled to think "I'm going to insert myself in your business so I can bitch at you about something on your mind." That is arguably what friends do from time to time, but Bucky and Sam aren't really friends like that. It isn't a crazy take to see the entitlement as a form of white privilege.

I don't see that as "white privilege" because the person who holds all the power in that moment is Sam.  If Sam says "Get your ass off this base" Bucky has to leave or beat the shit out of some soldiers and become a fugitive again.  I mean if some random white person had trespassed onto the base to bitch Sam out about giving away the shield, that's exactly what Sam would have done.  This was more "friend" privilege or at least "friend of a friend" privilege, because that's really what Sam and Bucky are at this point, two people who were friends with Steve Rogers but not friends with each other. 

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6 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I don't see that as "white privilege" because the person who holds all the power in that moment is Sam.  If Sam says "Get your ass off this base" Bucky has to leave or beat the shit out of some soldiers and become a fugitive again.  I mean if some random white person had trespassed onto the base to bitch Sam out about giving away the shield, that's exactly what Sam would have done.  This was more "friend" privilege or at least "friend of a friend" privilege, because that's really what Sam and Bucky are at this point, two people who were friends with Steve Rogers but not friends with each other. 

Yeah. Sam and Bucky give each other crap. That's their relationship. Right now it's not really affectionate crap, but it is a form of bonding and a discourse that they have that hints at a friendship forming. 

If Sam really didn't want Bucky to come on his mission, Bucky wouldn't have been on that plane. Sam would have faced him down and said, 'you're not coming. You want to continue this conversation, you wait until I get back.' But, either because he kind of buzzes off arguing with Bucky (which he clearly does) or because he recognises what an asset Bucky would be if they teamed up, Sam did let him come.

And I think that, if Bucky had been going on a mission and Sam had wanted to give him shit about something, this exact scenario would have worked, the other way around. 

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28 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I don't see that as "white privilege" because the person who holds all the power in that moment is Sam.  If Sam says "Get your ass off this base" Bucky has to leave or beat the shit out of some soldiers and become a fugitive again.  I mean if some random white person had trespassed onto the base to bitch Sam out about giving away the shield, that's exactly what Sam would have done.  This was more "friend" privilege or at least "friend of a friend" privilege, because that's really what Sam and Bucky are at this point, two people who were friends with Steve Rogers but not friends with each other. 

That is not the sense in which I mean the possible privilege existing.

Most people would not think they were entitled to come to a person's work to lecture them about a personal beef, let alone entitled to embark on an intercontinental trip to continue to lecture them about that beef, let alone when there's a measure of national security issues about all of the above.

That Sam could have squashed that at any point is irrelevant to that Bucky felt entitled to act the way he did. By way of example, if a white customer complains baselessly to a black manager, it doesn't matter that the black manager has more power than she does in the situation. The customer's complaints still could be informed and a manifestation of unearned entitlement, or more specifically, white privilege.

The source of the entitlement may have absolutely nothing to do with either Bucky's or Sam's race. Bucky's personality may be such that he would have acted the same way if he wanted to get in, say, Pepper Potts' face or Cosplay Cap's or the general that approved of Cosplay Cap. And if Bucky were black, maybe he still would have been just as brash and entitled.

But it is at least arguable that if the shoe had been on the other foot, Sam would have known damn well that he, as a black man, could not expect to barge onto an army base uninvited in the first place, let alone insert himself into Bucky's mission. That is where the white privilege would come in: being able able to not have to worry that you're not going to get denied a loan, harassed by cops, thrown off an army base, or suffer adverse consequences because of your skin color. 

Edited by Chicago Redshirt
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52 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Most people would not think they were entitled to come to a person's work to lecture them about a personal beef, let alone entitled to embark on an intercontinental trip to continue to lecture them about that beef, let alone when there's a measure of national security issues about all of the above.

 

I guess my quibble with this take on things is that I didn't read Bucky as following Sam on the mission to keep lecturing him about the shield. After all, he didn't mention the shield again once they were on the plane. I read it as Sam telling Bucky he was investigating a potentially Avenger-level situation ("Androids, aliens, or wizards"), and Bucky wanting to tag along on that. To help, and also because it was the first thing he'd stumbled across that felt purposeful to him since the events of Endgame. 

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1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

That is not the sense in which I mean the possible privilege existing.

Most people would not think they were entitled to come to a person's work to lecture them about a personal beef, let alone entitled to embark on an intercontinental trip to continue to lecture them about that beef, let alone when there's a measure of national security issues about all of the above.

That Sam could have squashed that at any point is irrelevant to that Bucky felt entitled to act the way he did. By way of example, if a white customer complains baselessly to a black manager, it doesn't matter that the black manager has more power than she does in the situation. The customer's complaints still could be informed and a manifestation of unearned entitlement, or more specifically, white privilege.

The source of the entitlement may have absolutely nothing to do with either Bucky's or Sam's race. Bucky's personality may be such that he would have acted the same way if he wanted to get in, say, Pepper Potts' face or Cosplay Cap's or the general that approved of Cosplay Cap. And if Bucky were black, maybe he still would have been just as brash and entitled.

But it is at least arguable that if the shoe had been on the other foot, Sam would have known damn well that he, as a black man, could not expect to barge onto an army base uninvited in the first place, let alone insert himself into Bucky's mission. That is where the white privilege would come in: being able able to not have to worry that you're not going to get denied a loan, harassed by cops, thrown off an army base, or suffer adverse consequences because of your skin color. 

Most people would include most white people.  Most white people would not feel entitled to go on to a military base to lecture a black man on some choice he made and then invite themselves along on a mission to continue said lecture.  I'll agree that it's privilege of some sort.  It's just not specifically "White" privilege in this case. 

Edited by johntfs
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3 hours ago, johntfs said:

Most people would include most white people.  Most white people would not feel entitled to go on to a military base to lecture a black man on some choice he made and then invite themselves along on a mission to continue said lecture.  I'll agree that it's privilege of some sort.  It's just not specifically "White" privilege in this case. 

Just because most white people also wouldn't do something does not make an act not white privilege.

As a for instance, the notion of knowingly calling the police on an innocent black person and making false claims about them is not something most white people would do. But when someone does do it, it is an example of them consciously wielding white privilege.

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5 hours ago, johntfs said:

I'll agree that it's privilege of some sort.  It's just not specifically "White" privilege in this case. 

To be fair if you contributed even a tiny bit to trying to save the universe like Bucky did (twice) it should come with a shitload of extra privileges.

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4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

To be fair if you contributed even a tiny bit to trying to save the universe like Bucky did (twice) it should come with a shitload of extra privileges.

Maybe, but figure "Invite yourself onto top secret military missions" is still probably not going to be one of them.

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That's Avengers privilege. If I get this correctly, Sam isn't even directly employed by the military, he is doing "contract work" on its behalf, so he is basically a free-lancer, who can make his own decisions and borrow their equipment. Because he is an Avenger. And if Bucky wants to tag along that is okay, too, because he is (more or less) an Avenger too. The difference is that this privilege was earned.

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