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S01.E01: New World Order

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1 hour ago, AimingforYoko said:

Here's my question: Why the moon?

Maybe it was a nod to the Inhumans home base. (But please let's all collectively forget that godawful TV show.)

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Any time they show the Winter Soldier in action I sit there wondering why anyone ever referred to him as 'a ghost.'  He pulls people through walls, leaves a path of bodies behind him and gets rid of innocent bystanders by blowing their brains out at close range. Oooo... he's like the wind! Who was that? Was someone here? The only evidence is these fifteen dead bodies! What could have possibly happened?!

That tank was like a ghost! Said no one ever.

Hydra's clean up crews are the unsung heroes of the Winter Soldier's enigmatic reputation, I guess.

Sam. Man... I love the issues he's dealing with. I really do. I love the look into his family, his sister, his desire to hold on. I suspect that desire to hold onto the things their family had was only heightened after the Snap. (I can't call it the blip. That's weird to me.) I did love watching Sam fight, though. He kicked ass! And I loved his talk with Rhodey, too. I hope we see Rhodey again because I love Don Cheadle but, also, Rhodey's one of the few we know who DID survive the Snap. I think there are connections that could be made between him and Sam AND him and Bucky that could be good. But I'm not going to count on it too much.

Part of fandom being what they are... I find myself rolling my eyes a lot at some of the outrage of Bucky going on a date (look, I'm so on board the Steve/Bucky train it's ridonk but I also came years later and I've never let a silly thing like canon get me down so I'm not excessively bothered by a lot of it.) It's just funny to me. I hated Steve's ending more than some out there but I also understand the logistics of it.

Also, the idea of Steve being so mythologized that there are rumors he's looking down on all of us from the moon makes me laugh.

And can we acknowledge Chris Evans' beautiful head that wore a helmet so so so very well? Wyatt Russell is not an unpleasant looking man but not everyone can don the helmet, y'know? I mean, seeing someone else that Steve did not very specifically pick holding the shield is bad enough... but putting on the helmet and looking weird and dorky? Dude.

 

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13 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Since all of the earthbound heroes were either independently wealthy (Tony), employed by SHIELD or the military (Steve, Natasha, Clint, Rhody, Sam) or  sponsored by one of the above (Peter, Bruce), it's hard to see how playing hero pays the bills. I remember Peter's homemade Spider suit and what a joke it was. With Sam trying to do his own repairs on his flight suit, it's obvious that he doesn't have any real backing at the moment. It might have been nice to live at the Avengers compound (funded by Tony) with a perfect apartment and full fridge and your disposal, but without that they have to worry about mortgages and phone bills like the rest of us. 

Bigger question is how Bucky is supporting himself since I don't see him having any kind of job. Maybe 90 years of military back pay? Because that was an awfully nice apartment he had.

Well, Sam's issue is that he wasn't an Avenger post-Civil War. He was on the run with Cap, Nat and Wanda. So he obviously wasn't getting any income then. And none of that was ever resolved until after the Blip, so he's essentially returned to a world where he was a penniless fugitive. You'd think that he'd have been given backing by one agency or another, now he's working for the government again, but maybe he's too proud to ask and they're just taking advantage of that. 

Bucky is probably being given plenty of resources by the US military intelligence, because at the very least they'll want to make sure he's not liable to go rogue and start killing people again. Amy Aquino is a military psychiatrist, as far as I could tell.

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34 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Probably not that he's ever met?  Also, I think connecting now would be just as awkward as trying to make friends, considering he'd be 30-40 years younger than them.  

I get that they'd be "old enough" to be his parents, but it would be a way for him to learn about the women his sisters grew up to be, and stories about his parents as grandparents. I know he might not mentally be in that headspace yet, since he's still trying to find James Bucky Barnes and absolve his guilt from being the Winter Soldier. I would have appreciated a line like "Have you called your niece yet?" and for him to say no.

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Well, the tank left no witnesses, so there was nobody who could tell who was killing so many people. I guess that makes him a ghost.

In my head canon both Steve and Bucky get some sort of backpay/veteran benefit. Not what the army is actually owing them, because that sum would be staggering, but a nice sum in some sort of agreement. And wouldn't Sam get some sort of benefits, too? Can't be much, though. But even a small sum would go a long way if you are living basically rent free in the Avengers facility. Main costs of living are after all stuff like rent, gas, insurances (who would insure a superhero?) aso.

 

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39 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

Sam should be able to open some doors to get the catering a ton of new business, just from offering to make an appearance. Sam could even start making deliveries, "30 seconds or less".

 

I was thinking, especially with the husband and wife coming up to him in when he was drinking tea, that Sam is probably the most bankable Avenger that is still left. I mean he was a war hero before becoming Falcon, then he saved the world, and he doesn't have a secret identity or any baggage about how he was once evil. It would take maybe a couple of phone calls and he could be the spokesperson for Nike's new Air Falcon. Or the all-new 2026 Ford Falcon.

22 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Bigger question is how Bucky is supporting himself since I don't see him having any kind of job. Maybe 90 years of military back pay? Because that was an awfully nice apartment he had.

Maybe he is like Fry from Futurama and all his wartime paycheques have been sitting in a bank account collecting interest since 1945.

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Bucky probably has to still have some family descendants around but I can see him feeling he isn't worthy enough to contact them. It would be cool to see down the line though.

Uh, people are upset that he went on a date? Remind me to stay away from that corner of the internet. He's as baffled by online dating as I would be and I'm only half his age 😆

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2 minutes ago, festivus said:

Bucky probably has to still have some family descendants around but I can see him feeling he isn't worthy enough to contact them. It would be cool to see down the line though.

Uh, people are upset that he went on a date? Remind me to stay away from that corner of the internet. He's as baffled by online dating as I would be and I'm only half his age 😆

On a date with a woman. Like I said, those small parts of fandom are gonna fandom and if they only like Seb in 'sad gay boy' roles then that's a them problem.

I did feel kinda bad for the woman because it did seem like Bucky just up and left the date without a word. At the same time, post Snap is anyone a good date? 'Hey you're really nice for hanging out with Yuri. Let's talk about death for awhile, huh?'

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9 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

I did feel kinda bad for the woman because it did seem like Bucky just up and left the date without a word. At the same time, post Snap is anyone a good date? 'Hey you're really nice for hanging out with Yuri. Let's talk about death for awhile, huh?'

That's better than the alternative.  So when I thought you were dead I met someone else and we hit it off.....

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42 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I was thinking, especially with the husband and wife coming up to him in when he was drinking tea, that Sam is probably the most bankable Avenger that is still left. I mean he was a war hero before becoming Falcon, then he saved the world, and he doesn't have a secret identity or any baggage about how he was once evil. It would take maybe a couple of phone calls and he could be the spokesperson for Nike's new Air Falcon. Or the all-new 2026 Ford Falcon.

I agree that Sam could easily grab some endorsements if he wanted to, but that doesn't seem like his thing either.  Also, SmartHulk is still around.  Didn't he rehab his image already and become a celebrity?  There was that diner scene where the kids wanted pictures...  he could make bank, too.  And Dr. Strange; he doesn't hide who he is, but he doesn't really need money.

ETA:  Tony should have just left them all something in his will.  He had plenty to take care of Pepper and his daughter, plus the others who would need something too.

Edited by FnkyChkn34
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1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Bucky is probably being given plenty of resources by the US military intelligence, because at the very least they'll want to make sure he's not liable to go rogue and start killing people again. Amy Aquino is a military psychiatrist, as far as I could tell.

She told Bucky during their session that she had been a soldier herself, so she knew some of what he was dealing with. I like that she's tough but fair with him, and the part where she said "if you don't talk, I write" made me chuckle. The therapy stuff is a condition of his pardon too, so we'll probably be seeing her again.

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Sam might be bankable but ironically if he would actually use his bankability for personal gain, he wouldn't be a hero anymore. Or at least, not the kind of hero Steve was. For the same reason he narratively had to be hesitant to take up the shield. Because the shield is a responsibility and the only people who would pick up that kind of responsibility easily are the same people who only see the power of it. It's the whole "the best kings are those who don't want the crown" idea which has been so prevalent in literature.

 

 

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One MCU show ends, and another begins. Very different vibe from WandaVision, but interestingly they do seem to share a lot of similar themes. They are both about dealing with grief, trauma and the human side of dealing with these huge superhero hijinks, and exploring the post Endgame world. While WandaVision was a trippy and weird mystery, this one is a more realistic action show, and that's one of the things I like so much about the MCU. Its such a big and well established universe that you can tell all kinds of stories in it and not feel like it doesn't fit in scale or tone. It also allows us to focus not only on the big blockbuster moments of superheroes fighting alien armies and supervillains, but on the smaller more logistical parts of living in this kind of world, or let us take a second to breath and focus on the characters themselves. 

I thought this was a really strong pilot, a little bit slow but they are obviously setting a lot of things up for later and taking time to show us how things are going now that Endgame is a few months past. The big action set piece at the start was definitely originally supposed to be the MCU's big return, and even if its a bit out of order now its still a cool way to announce that we're officially back and ready for the next stage. The set up is interesting, exploring how both Buck and Sam are dealing with getting back to something close to normal, before they really kick the plot into high gear and team up. I thought their dynamic in Civil War was a real highlight of the movie so I am excited to see them team up, but I like exploring their own stories a bit first. I am really excited for this series, I wish that they had given us two episodes to start with like with WandaVision. I am actually happy that they are releasing these MCU shows one week at a time, it means I can really savor and enjoy them, but streaming has spoiled me, I want more! Now! 

So Sam never actually got paid for being an Avenger? Even before he went on the run after Civil War, he was never getting a paycheck? Tony never thought to use his billions to pay the superhero team he helped create? That bank guy was a real prick, going all fanboy and then refusing their loan, despite the fact that their family has banked there for years and that they know that Sam has a very good explanation as to why he has been gone for five years. People vanished? Alien conqueror? It was a whole thing? Even after everything he did, he is still getting dicked around by the government and banks. I like Sam's sister so far, its fun to explore more about his family and his life outside of his job and his relationship with Steve. Anthony Mackie just has such style, I love just watching him do his thing. 

Struggling even more is Bucky, and I am really glad that they are actually going to give him some time to shine. He has been such a huge part of the Captain America movies and the franchise in general, but he has mostly been more of a plot device then a character since Winter Soldier. We have seen some bits of his internal life and his personality and struggles, and those have all been really interesting, but he has mostly been around to affect Steve and his story and to drive the plot with his history as the Winter Soldier, so him getting to really be the focus is going to be interesting. Sebastian Stan is really doing great stuff, he has always done a lot with a little and now is getting to do even more. The poor guy has really just had nothing but misery for decade upon decade now, so its no surprise that he is a total mess of PTSD and guilt, all alone in a world that he knows little about in the context of being a civilian or even just a person with autonomy and free will. It really is terribly tragic that he feels so guilty about everything he did as the Winter Soldier, its really not his fault at all, what he did it was always Hydra's fault, but I can see why he feels terrible about what he was made to do and the people that died. If trying to make amends gives him peace and makes him feel better that's great, but I hope he can finally realize he shouldn't beat himself up over things he cant control. His scenes with nice old guy Yori were so sweet, so of course its actually because he killed his son while he was the Winter Soldier and is trying to make amends. I am so dreading Yori finding out what happened, this is all just a never ending festival of sadness. At least he is seeing a super awesome therapist, who I hope we keep seeing. I think that just about everyone in the MCU needs all of the therapy, but Bucky is definitely at the top of the list so I am glad he is getting help, even if its mandated by the government.  I guess when your a well known super powered killing machine, you cant really have too many off days or people start getting nervous. You could accidently brainwash a whole town in a moment of grief and magical energy in New Jersey or something.

Gee, if only Bucky had someone around who could understand his plight, perhaps someone who is also a hundred year old super soldier who is also his long time best friend. But I bet even if such a person existed they would probably have committed suicide by time travel to get to slow dance with his girlfriend from 70 years ago leaving their best friends in their time of need...*

That new Captain America they created just looks so wrong and awful, I full on recoiled from that horrible cereal mascot carrying around Steve's shield. Not only are they going against what they told Sam they would do, taking the shield out of the Smithsonian to hand to this moron, but Steve would be seriously cringing watching this. With his stupid posing and his dumb smile and cheap looking costume, he looked like how they made Steve act when he was originally Captain America when he was just a propaganda figure, which Steve hated. And yeah, there is certainly a lot that can be read into the political optics of this, especially as this fake cap looks like the most over the top square jawed white guy you could imagine, and while the MCU never goes too hard into that territory, the Captain America movies are usually the ones that deal the most with politics and real world issues, so I could see them going there at least in the subtext. 

Nice seeing Rodney, I had no idea he was getting a cameo. I hope he stops by again, he and Sam can bond over both losing their respective best friends and dealing with being a military superhero in the post Endgame world. Actually, is Steve even dead? Are we going to get that confirmed, or is he really on the moon base chilling with Nick Fury? 

*I promise I am going to keep my complaining about Steve's End Game fucking of the space time continuum to a minimum. I found it to be ridiculously out of character, stupid, and basically made his whole character arc useless, and while I get why he had to go, I just wish it had been a better way. I will try not to focus on that and how salty I am about the dumb ending they gave one of my favorite characters too much...well I'll try. 

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Anyone want to take any bets on what Bucky's dating profile must look like?

 

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8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Gee, if only Bucky had someone around who could understand his plight, perhaps someone who is also a hundred year old super soldier who is also his long time best friend. But I bet even if such a person existed they would probably have committed suicide by time travel to get to slow dance with his girlfriend from 70 years ago leaving their best friends in their time of need...*

Oh, the shade, lol. Like you, I'll try to keep my bitterness to a minimum but I would LOVE to see Bucky spew out what he really thinks about it. On the one hand I'm sure he wants Steve to be happy but there's no way he's not feeling alone and abandoned by the one person who could have understood some of what he's going through.

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I don't know that I'd necessarily hold it against Sam for doing what he had to do in order to take care of his family. They never clarified what Steve's monetary situation was but he basically got pulled out of the ice and directly into SHIELD's custody. Then he wound up on Tony's dime (along with everyone else presumably) and then he went fugitive. After the Snap, it seemed that he and Natasha were living at the Avenger's compound? And presumably no one was going to tell them no? Not even Tony at that point who was living at the lake. It makes sense that he'd have been able to get back pay given that he was likely never declared dead just MIA but who knows?

Basically, if Sam decided to go for a Nike endorsement in order to take care of himself, his sister and her kids... to help their business... I don't think that makes him less a hero. And Sam's current position is one worth questioning. He WAS in the military and he left to become a civilian and he worked at the VA. Steve and Nat needing help was all Sam needed to 'get back in.' So... is he officially military again? Apparently not since his status doesn't seem to be official and he does... what, independent contracting? Besides, the 'you don't have a regular paycheck from that time you were 'blipped' so tough noogies' is such bullshit.

I mean, if he were kicking back showing off his many houses that he bought due to his endorsements on the rebooted 'Cribs' I suppose that might be one thing. Trying to save his sister's business and make sure she and her kids aren't sweating it out every day to make ends meet? I'm more than fine with that. Hell, do more than one endorsement and get his sister and her kids a really nice house and set aside money for them to go to college. I'm perfectly fine with that, too. Because it's SAM. SAM is a hero.

 

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6 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Basically, if Sam decided to go for a Nike endorsement in order to take care of himself, his sister and her kids... to help their business... I don't think that makes him less a hero. And Sam's current position is one worth questioning. He WAS in the military and he left to become a civilian and he worked at the VA. Steve and Nat needing help was all Sam needed to 'get back in.' So... is he officially military again? Apparently not since his status doesn't seem to be official and he does... what, independent contracting? Besides, the 'you don't have a regular paycheck from that time you were 'blipped' so tough noogies' is such bullshit.

I mean, if he were kicking back showing off his many houses that he bought due to his endorsements on the rebooted 'Cribs' I suppose that might be one thing. Trying to save his sister's business and make sure she and her kids aren't sweating it out every day to make ends meet? I'm more than fine with that. Hell, do more than one endorsement and get his sister and her kids a really nice house and set aside money for them to go to college. I'm perfectly fine with that, too. Because it's SAM. SAM is a hero.

In universe he would absolutely be slammed by talking heads and parts of the public for taking any endorsement deal no matter what unless 100% of the cash went to a charity.  People would also be resentful of his sister (geez, if only the rest of us had an Avenger for a brother...) if she profited in any way from Sam's reputation.

Some of the stuff they are touching on here (and briefly in Wandavision) is that there would be a huge divide between the dusted and non-dusted over certain things, especially in leadership positions.  The non-dusted would say that the dusted were gone for five years, can't possibly understand how things have changed, and should just shut up if they object to anything since they weren't around to rebuild the world.

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15 minutes ago, festivus said:

Oh, the shade, lol. Like you, I'll try to keep my bitterness to a minimum but I would LOVE to see Bucky spew out what he really thinks about it. On the one hand I'm sure he wants Steve to be happy but there's no way he's not feeling alone and abandoned by the one person who could have understood some of what he's going through.

I will say one thing; Bucky and Sam haven't entirely been thrown into the deep end with no help or support. (Hi, Wanda.) Sam has his sister. Bucky has his therapist and Mr. Yori. Rhodey knows a little bit of what Sam's been up to since he's been back, and I don't think they'd ever interacted one on one before. Yes, they're having a rough go of it, and I'm sure they both quietly resent Steve for getting his happy ending without a thought for either of them, but they're not actually alone and soon enough they'll be working together again. Snark and all.

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Look, I don't like Steve's ending but I think it was obvious that he AT LEAST told Bucky. They may have been waiting but as Bruce kept counting, Bucky looked resigned and started walking away. He knew. Even his goodbye to Steve... the throwback to their first before Bucky headed off to war... was indicative that he knew Steve wasn't coming back.

And as much as I HATE that ending... neither Sam nor Bucky would say a god damn thing about Steve deciding to stay. I think it's bullshit and it goes against everything I know about Steve but both of those guys would say 'yes, Steve... you've done enough. Go and be happy for once in your life.'

I mean, my head canon is that Steve is still around and going to art school and stuff and, yes, continuing to be a friend to both of them (because I love Steve so so much and that's just me) but that doesn't necessarily mean that he can solve all the problems. Let me think about how Steve handled shit when he came out of the ice... ummm... not great. He punched things. A lot. That was his therapy. And I can't even say it worked all that well. And then aliens invaded and he punched those things. And then he worked for SHIELD and punched things. And then he didn't work for SHIELD and punched things.

Okay, to be fair, he also kicked things.

I also wonder what happened to Old Steve. I'd LIKE to think that he hung around a bit to talk to Bucky, talk him through things, maybe say 'look, punching and kicking isn't the best way to handle trauma, perhaps accept that there are other options?' But... even though Steve's shadow hangs over this, this is no longer his story.

It's Sam's and it's Bucky's. I have to make my peace with no Steve (and it ain't easy for more reasons than New Guy can't wear a helmet) in the midst of all that but I'm also happy to get some focus on these guys. Even if Steve's shadow leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

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Well yeah, I do think that's probably one of the end goals of the show, Steve's two best friends finding each other. It doesn't keep me from wanting them to give their real feelings on what he did. This episode seemed to say that Steve still looms large, look no further than that huge picture of him at the museum. Part of that would seem to require the real feelings of his friends to come out. But will they go there, considering how it seems like 'they' think Steve's ending in Endgame was so heartwarming. 

I will say that this show is at least trying so far to deal with The Snapture in the way I have been wanting.

When I say they, it means I've never seen anything from Marvel that says Steve's ending is problematic. If anyone connected did, point me to it.

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11 minutes ago, festivus said:

When I say they, it means I've never seen anything from Marvel that says Steve's ending is problematic. If anyone connected did, point me to it.

No, I haven't seen anything in that regard from Marvel, either. Nor do I expect to. I mean, the writers and the Russos couldn't seem to agree on what Steve going back actually meant to the timeline but neither expressed regret for his ending.

I do appreciate them going there regarding the Snap. But, again, I do wonder what happened to Old Steve. Sam referred to Steve in the past tense during his speech. That could be part of the 'Steve is Gone' mystique as well as letting Old Steve retire without a lot of spotlight on him. I can't imagine we'll get nothing from Bucky... but how much? An 'I miss Steve?' An 'I wish Steve were still with us?' I don't know.

But obviously this is going to be more along the lines of Sam and Bucky finding their own place in the New World Order and no longer being under Steve's shadow. So I don't know how much bitterness either one is going to express.

Edited by Dandesun
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I strongly doubt it's going to happen, but I think Sam should just ask Pepper Pots for a private loan. Yeah, it might be embarrassing, but you know what else was embarrassing - for his sister to go begging at the bank that had already turned her down when her only new argument was "hey, btw, my brother's an ex-Avenger!". Pepper would probably agree, and besides, he could be sure she wouldn't try to screw him over.

Also, I just sympathise with the sister in general here - if she doesn't want to spend the rest of her life propping up a failing business and do something else instead, why shouldn't she?

I get why Bucky doesn't trust the therapist - apart from everything else that has been mentioned (especially the attitude towards therapy in the 40s, not that the idea of therapy in the 40s would have been the same idea we have of it today), if it weren't clear that nuCap was going to be the bad guy, I'd be suspicious of the therapist myself. As far as I could tell, she was chosen and appointed by the government and he's had enough government-type people trying to mess with his head for their own ends, so I can't fault him for being wary.

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

With his stupid posing and his dumb smile and cheap looking costume, he looked like how they made Steve act when he was originally Captain America when he was just a propaganda figure, which Steve hated. And yeah, there is certainly a lot that can be read into the political optics of this, especially as this fake cap looks like the most over the top square jawed white guy you could imagine, and while the MCU never goes too hard into that territory, the Captain America movies are usually the ones that deal the most with politics and real world issues, so I could see them going there at least in the subtext. 

I wouldn't even call it subtext? Like, the speech before nuCap's introduction was very much "we're in a slump, we need propaganda to make people feel better, so here, have some propaganda" with the thinnest of veils - I was rolling my eyes at it and wondering where it was going until they revealed the punchline.

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Shame on them for taking the actual meat of the Falcon-Cap storyline from the comics and ditching it.  Cowards. 

Even before the Pandemic, this country was at a racial boiling point.  So they have only a weak excuse that this was filmed before George Floyd and Breonna Taylor. The original story was completely about Sam not being ACCEPTED as Captain America, and without it this is a shadow of what it could be. 

I'm going to try... hard... to enjoy upcoming episodes on their own merits.  But I'm SO disappointed. 

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On 3/19/2021 at 8:27 AM, FnkyChkn34 said:

As for pulling Steve out of the Potomac, I think Bucky was only just starting to come around because Steve is Steve and Steve was the first person to get through to him ever so slightly.  Prior to that, he was 100% brainwashed and didn't care about strangers.  Unfortunately, it's like the insanity defense.  Sometimes people just aren't in their right minds, and family and friends don't get justice for the person's bad actions. 

Well, I figure Bucky pulled Cap out of the Potomac because somewhere deep in the recesses of his mind, Bucky recognized Steve as his friend (maybe triggered when Steve called him "Bucky"). That contrasts with the Winter Soldier not sparing strangers because well, they were strangers. 

On 3/19/2021 at 10:24 AM, thuganomics85 said:

 Rhodey!  Wasn't expecting him to pop up.  I hope we see him again.

Agreed. I came into this without spoilers, so I was very happy to see another familiar face from the MCU!

"New Captain America" already seems to be a contender for most hated character in the MCU without even uttering a word.  Wyatt Russell will probably be a good fit, but I kind of wish they went full meta and got John Krasinski since he was originally a finalist for the role years ago (and his wife, Emily Blunt, was actually the original choice for Natasha/Black Widow, but had to drop out.)

Wow - I didn't know that about the casting. To me, Chris Evans IS Cap. Can't picture anyone else in the role. As for Natasha, I could picture someone else besides ScarJo...

Quote

So the villains are going to be this New World Order group, who seem to be another case of antagonists whose ideas aren't actually bad on paper (a united world), but their approach to things are probably going to be quite questionable.  Plus, not to dive into spoiler territory, I have a feeling I know who else might be involved here...

It's a lofty goal to try to have a united world without borders but their methods are highly questionable if it involves bank robbery!  

 

Edited by norcalgal
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1 hour ago, silverstream said:

Also, I just sympathise with the sister in general here - if she doesn't want to spend the rest of her life propping up a failing business and do something else instead, why shouldn't she?

Plus it seems that every idea that he thinks is new and smart is probably something she has already tried and didn't work. So for her it is just going through the motions again when she already knows the outcome.

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Loved it.

Saw a review or two complaining about the slow pace, and I think they are all wrong. Aside from the flight sequence (and that was incredible for a blockbuster theatrical release, let alone a tv show!), I love that they are treating this so far as a real character piece. I tend to think that, somewhere in our digital evolution, 24 hour news cycle, and binge watching, that we have lost the ability to absorb things at a leisurely pace; that we can't pay attention long enough to stop looking at our phones unless we are besieged with non-stop action; that we can't understand subtleties and need to be spoon fed the answers (I picked up on Bucky's dilemma as soon as we first heard about his friend's son, and didn't need the later revelation, but I wonder how many people wouldn't have gotten it otherwise). I wonder how much of that plays a role in some of these reviews.

I recognize a lot of elements from various comic storylines that were my favorites (notably, Mark Gruenwald's early run on Captain America). I really enjoyed the scene between Sam and Rhodey. I can foresee these two replacing Steve and Tony in a pretty memorable story arc from the comics when the War Machine show rolls around. 

I was looking forward to this show the most (Baron Zemo II is one of my favorite characters from the comics, so hope Daniel Bruhl gets a chance to really shine and maybe bring the MCU version and comics version somewhat more sympatico). It is definitely delivering so far.

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6 hours ago, Kromm said:

I'm going to try... hard... to enjoy upcoming episodes on their own merits.  But I'm SO disappointed. 

I hear what you're saying, but I think there is still time for them to tell that story (maybe this season, or perhaps in a second? if/when Sam takes up the mantle).

17 hours ago, SeanC said:

Sam and Bucky, especially the latter, really took a backseat in the Captain America movies...

tumblr_inline_oe0mvvrISc1rb184i_500.gifv

 

17 hours ago, paigow said:

I guess the waitress never visited ALL of The Smithsonian...

In all fairness, there are so many Smithsonian museums, that it is a pretty big undertaking. So much to see!!! 🤩

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9 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

I'm sure that the actor is a perfectly nice guy, but imagine going to work one day and ending up the most hated person on the internet.

"Tell me about it!"

20150928_015140_STAR.jpg?w=512

1 minute ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

"Could you move your seat up a little?"

"No."

XD

I have to add that I have been hoping for a project featuring these two characters/actors ever since this scene in WS (which is still my favorite MCU movie). One more reason I am loving FAWS so much.

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6 hours ago, absnow54 said:

One thing that bugs, is that they say that Bucky has no family, but then he goes onto say that he had four sisters. I get that they've all probably passed, but does he have no nieces or nephews to connect with? 

I thought he said I4? Basically he was calling out his guess for her ship. She replied miss and then told him to drink.

I really liked this episode. I was expecting a fun, action buddy cop show and instead got some action with mostly men dealing with a lot of baggage. I LOVED it. Everything about Sam and, Bucky and the lives they're trying to live after the Blip, being on the run for crimes post Civil War and, being Winter Soldier.  

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25 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I hear what you're saying, but I think there is still time for them to tell that story (maybe this season, or perhaps in a second? if/when Sam takes up the mantle).

I'm not sure the story works in reverse order. In the original, the employment of John Walker was very much posed as pushback to the notion of Sam Wilson being too woke, too proactive, and of him symbolising the new shape of America rather than mythical past. 

Only the last of those three things seems intact, if you reverse the order. 

I'm also not fond of this very generic seeming evil organization.  It seems at a deliberate remove from anything we can identify with from our current world. 

I can't fault the action.  That's the strong point so far. 

I will say, I also kind of HATED the scoring. After utter perfection with scoring with WandaVision, the scoring here seemed bargain basement.  Very intrusive at times, and even a bit basic cable /syndicated TV sounding. 

Edited by Kromm

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I can definitely see the argument that Bucky as the Winter Soldier was brainwashed and under mind control, but the way the Captain America: Winter Soldier movie ended, where Bucky broke off enough conditioning to haul Steve out of the water suggests even the brainwashed Bucky had some limited amount of control over the whole thing.

I wish the show hadn't employed the "shithole filter" for the Tunisia scenes.

Also, I'm not sure why the Libyan border was a bright red line. The whole point of Sam flying the rescue mission in Tunisia was that somehow it wouldn't be a treaty violation if he did it (in Tunisia) instead of the US armed forces. Is an Avenger doing a favor for the US somehow more acceptable in Tunisia? Esp if that Avenger used to be in the armed forces and is essentially using (Stark-upgraded) American military technology?

I did appreciate all the many echoes and remixes of the Winter Soldier movie like Bucky's notebook, Sam dropping out of a plane without a parachute, or just the music cues. I see Henry Jackman, the same composer, worked on this series.

And I'm glad Batroc lived to fight another day. The MCU kills off too many villains.

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7 minutes ago, Kromm said:

I'm also not fond of this very generic seeming evil organization.  It seems at a deliberate remove from anything we can identify with from our current world.

I was wondering if Zemo was the guy who knocked the young soldier out during the bank robbery. After he regained consciousness, he sent Sam some footage to look at and Sam responded with the equivalent of "we'll talk about this later." If he's as out of the loop as it seems, he wouldn't have any idea that the dude from the bunker in Siberia is now out of his very small cell.

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1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I picked up on Bucky's dilemma as soon as we first heard about his friend's son, and didn't need the later revelation, but I wonder how many people wouldn't have gotten it otherwise

Once that guy said he had a son, I knew it was flashback guy. If it wasn't the man's words, the lingering close up of Bucky looking sad, guilty, and regretful all at once clued me in. I really liked Bucky's chemistry with bar lady. You can tell Disney/Marvel are dropping some serious cash on these series, and I appreciate that. I'm an easy audience, but I really liked everything. The reappearance of Batroc and cameo by Rhodey. This is such a well thought out universe with so many little details. I promise I'm not getting paid for my gushing. 

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I really hope that SWORD or somebody is keeping cap alive in cryostasis in a base on the moon.

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9 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Guessing it was just a jab at crazy conspiracy theories.

And also lets them have an end shot of Steve's grave and they pull back to show that it's beside the flag planted in 1969.

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15 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

 

Bucky’s shrink is already one of my favorite characters.

The actress played another terrific, acerbic shrink in Felicty's second season.  

14 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Fake-Cap looks like a cheap knock off

He has a smarmy smile- I don't trust him as far as I can throw him.

I see a lot of parallels between their post-blip world and ours. A LOT.

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3 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I hear what you're saying, but I think there is still time for them to tell that story (maybe this season, or perhaps in a second? if/when Sam takes up the mantle).

I agree and I feel there was the undercurrent in several scenes which laid the groundwork. Particularly in the museum scene with Sam and Rhodey. When that guy thanked Sam for making the “right decision” in handing over the shield I felt there was a racist undercurrent. That feeling was magnified when they ended it by sticking a generic, white soldier in the suit. Sam is the hero they send in to save the day quietly but he’s not the “right” person to be Captain America. 

I picked up on some of those same undercurrents in the bank scene. I will be extremely disappointed if they don’t go there but for now I like that they are starting subtle.  

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If the US military can't be seen to be operating in Tunisian air space, what's that big USAF plane doing flying in Tunisian air space/

Those wing things, operating in and out of helicopters were cool af.

Rhodey!

Sam isn't right about the boat and house.  I think he's probably feeling guilty about being gone for five years (and is that when his parents died?), but he has to understand his sister's point of view.

I hope Sergeant Torres sticks around, I like him.

I'm suspect of US Agent.

 

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Sam having to beg for money rang false to me.  He has fancy Stark tech and a place in the compound.  He was part of the Avengers during Antman.  No way Tony wasn’t paying them some sort of stipend.

Otherwise, a good start.  I love the therapist, but I have enjoyed that actress since Brooklyn Bridge.

Edited by Crs97

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16 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Sam having to beg for money rang false to me.  He has fancy Stark tech and a place in the compound.  He was part of the Avengers during Antman.  No way Tony wasn’t paying them some sort of stipend.

He had that for a year. Then he spent 2 years as a fugitive and was dead for 5 years. 

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19 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

They probably won't address this, but I really hope that they do. Bucky was, for all intents and purposes, abandoned by the one person that really understood him and the unique position he was in. I get that Chris Evan's contract was over and they needed to write him out in a way that wasn't a total downer after killing off Tony and Natasha, but damn... I'm still pissed about that.

 

Full disclosure  I love Steve and Peggy so I love they’re together. Having said that, that was the one sticking point with me. I rationalize it this way. Steve and Bucky obviously talked. Bucky knew Steve wasn’t coming right back, at least not as a young man. In my head canon, Steve was going to be self sacrificing again and Bucky, know how much Steve had given over the years and how little he’d gotten in return, convinced him to tale that ‘selfish’ leap. To ask for something for himself. Even the Civil War self interest still came down to Steve saving Bucky. Steve lost a lot for him and Bucky knows it. Maybe Steve even wanted Bucky to come back too but Bucky felt he couldn’t return to that time. Unlike Steve, he didn’t belong there. He doesn’t really belong in the present either. He needs to find his own way. He needs to find James Barnes and he can’t ask Steve to miss his one shot, lose everything for him again. Because everything shows that Steve wouldn’t go if Bucky asked him not to. And Bucky convinces him even though it’s going to hurt. But Steve can’t be his crutch either. He needs to do this himself. And Steve knows Sam is there too even though we don’t know how much contact they’re on. But they seemed supportive at the end of Endgame. And while I believe the writers and this is Original Time Loop Steve, if he did go to an alternate timeline there’d be nothing to stop him rescuing Bucky and giving that Bucky a chance at an actual life. My head canon for what it’s worth. 🙂 

So I think we’ll see some of that here. We’ve gotten a glimpse of Sam’s dealing with Steve’s decision and now we can see Bucky’s. As Bucky he’s always had Steve. Who is he when he’s not the Winter Soldier but he’s not Bucky Barnes either, at least as he was before the war. He has his own shadow to escape. So Steve’s decision, while controversial but narratively required, sets up some interesting paths. Otherwise Bucky would be navigating the world with Steve and likely somewhat in his shadow. And would Steve push him or would his guilt and his love for him lead him to coddle him? To not let him work things out the way they probably should because he wants to spare him? And what did it cost or take for Bucky to encourage that knowing he’d be without that rock of solid support? So while we’ll never see that conversation maybe it’ll be referred to. I hope so. Because, IMO, that decision to stay in the past is as critical to Bucky’s future as Steve’s decision to hand off the shield to Sam. We just have it seen as focused on in previews. I’m excited to see who Bucky will become. 

[edited to tie discussion closer to show than I originally made apparent.] 

Edited by lawrbk
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4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I was wondering if Zemo was the guy who knocked the young soldier out during the bank robbery.

Zemo never had super mutant strength...

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12 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Well, Sam's issue is that he wasn't an Avenger post-Civil War. He was on the run with Cap, Nat and Wanda. So he obviously wasn't getting any income then. And none of that was ever resolved until after the Blip, so he's essentially returned to a world where he was a penniless fugitive. You'd think that he'd have been given backing by one agency or another, now he's working for the government again, but maybe he's too proud to ask and they're just taking advantage of that. 

Bucky is probably being given plenty of resources by the US military intelligence, because at the very least they'll want to make sure he's not liable to go rogue and start killing people again. Amy Aquino is a military psychiatrist, as far as I could tell.

There was always the thought the government owed Steve back pay plus interest. Maybe they do Bucky too since he was technically a POW. 

sam was considered dead so any money he had anywhere would’ve gone to his sister if it hadn’t been frozen when he was a wanted man. Either way, he’s coming back to basically nothing.

2 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

If the US military can't be seen to be operating in Tunisian air space, what's that big USAF plane doing flying in Tunisian air space/

Those wing things, operating in and out of helicopters were cool af.

Rhodey!

Sam isn't right about the boat and house.  I think he's probably feeling guilty about being gone for five years (and is that when his parents died?), but he has to understand his sister's point of view.

I hope Sergeant Torres sticks around, I like him.

I'm suspect of US Agent.

 

I like Torres too. 
its interesting the juxtaposition of legacies. Sam doesn’t feel up to carrying on Steve’s for a variety of reasons and his sister doesn’t feel like she can carry on their family’s. But Sam can’t see that and refuses to give in because the house and boat are their legacy.

6 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

"Could you move your seat up a little?"

"No."

XD

That scene is almost entirely responsible for this show. 🙂

6 hours ago, norcalgal said:

Well, I figure Bucky pulled Cap out of the Potomac because someone deep in the recesses of his mind, Bucky recognized Steve as his friend (maybe triggered when Steve called him "Bucky"). That contrasts with the Winter Soldier not sparing strangers because well, they were strangers. 

Wow - I didn't know that about the casting. To me, Chris Evans IS Cap. Can't picture anyone else in the role. As for Natasha, I could picture someone else besides ScarJo...

 

You should google it. Krasinski has talked about it a lot. I think he has some unresolved issues. Lol And you’re 100% correct. There’s no other Steve but Chris Evans.

And they not only gave him the shield but they named Walker Captain America AND called him Cap! Steve is my favorite so I felt personally affronted. 🙂 No one else is ‘Cap’. Eff them. Plus yanking the shield right of the exhibit? I mean, since the shield was Steve’s and he gave it to Sam personally and he bequeathed it TO THE EXHIBIT, do they even have the right to take it? Because of there were ownership questions they sure didn’t show them. Seemed pretty straightforward that Sam just didn’t want it (as opposed to he didn’t have a choice) but didn’t want it anywhere but Steve’s exhibit. Plus, not that they know it, but it’s not the 1940s shield since Thanos hacked it up. No matter whether he’s time loop Steve or alternate timeline Steve, that’s a new shield. So it’s definitely his anyway you look at it. But even still, Tony had possession last, gave it to Steve personally and Steve turned around and bequeathed it to Sam. He needs to raise a stink. It’s so disrespectful to Steve and Sam both. It’s like giving a museum an art piece on long term loan and they turn around and sell it.

Edited by lawrbk
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Chris Evans was Marvel's first choice for the role. Like, they basically had to beg him to take it in a long, long negotiation. I am pretty sure that he is happy about having been convinced in hindsight, though. He is perfect for the role in a way no one else is.

And yeah, I guess the issue is currently whoever the guy under the mask is, the issue is more how callous they ignored Sam's wishes. And in a way Cap's, because he gave the shield to Sam for a reason.

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Just a gentle reminder to keep discussion to the episode and show. This isn't the place to re-litigate the Marvel movies - there's a topic to discuss the franchise. Thank you.

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That was good.  The slower pace doesn't bother me, I think we needed that after the batshit crazy WandaVision.

I didn't care for the first fight scene.  It just looked so cheap for some reason.  And the closeups to Sam when he was in the air was terrible.  Closeups on scenes like that don't usually look good, imo.

I truly sympathize with Sam wanting to save the family boat, but I'm on Sarah's side.  She's been on her own for five years, raising two small children, trying her best to keep things afloat.  She clearly doesn't want to sell it, but I see why she feels she has no choice.  Happy memories and sentiments aren't going to pay the bills.  If they can't fix the boat, what else is she supposed to do with it?  Also, she mentioned that she was a widow herself.  That couldn't have made things any easier.

The banker may have been correct about the loan, but he was still a jerk asking Sam for another selfie.  You don't turn people down then ask for something, idiot.

I feel for Bucky.  On top of shouldering a massive amount of guilt, he's completely alone in a new world and has just lost the one person who really knew him.   At least Steve had Fury and the Avengers to help him adjust to the 20th century.  Bucky just seems so lost and doesn't have any connections.  And I didn't pick up why he was so attached to Mr. Yori until the end.  Mr. Yori being old is another reason why he and Bucky are friends; Bucky's more on Yori's level than he realizes.  Technically, it's two elderly men chatting with each other.

 

18 hours ago, SeanC said:

Also, the guy playing Torres is clearly trying, but there's something off about his performance.

I thought so, too.  I figured he was going to end up a member of that Flag organization, but I guess not.  Maybe he's just trying too hard?

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Oh crap, I know Wyatt Russell! He was in an excellent episode of Black Mirror - where he was test subject for a Virtual video game. It's one of the most freakiest episodes. *winces* He was really good in that. However, he looked goofy-as-hell in Cap's Mask. Chris Evans really does give "good face." James Marden wasn't available? Or Ryan Reynolds in some Deadpool 4th wall breaking bizarro situation?

I'm very excited that Anthony Mackie and Sebastian Stan are finally getting some concentrated attention. They have the talent to pull it off. I wasn't with the initial tone at first but that quickly faded, I was surprised the (less than an) hour was up so soon. That's a good sign for me.

18 hours ago, swanpride said:

I am wondering if the writers are reading fanfictions….not that they would ever admit it, but it was very odd to see Bucky in that Japanese Restaurant, because there is a very popular Bucky Fanfic (set after The Winter Soldier) in which one of the plot point is him striking a friendship with the owner of a Japanese restaurant (who has a daughter). Bucky's inner monologue in the fic is hilarious btw, I always have to remind myself that it isn't canon. Wasn't exactly easy watching him sitting in that restaurant.

Poor Bucky - I knew that Steve shouldn't have left him alone!!!! An honestly, what are all those Avengers even doing grieving on their own instead of helping each other out!!!!

Also loved the political undertones in relation to Sam. Him giving up the shield and it then being given to some white dude who has no relation whatsoever to Steve was such a fitting commentary about the state of American society!!!!

I have not had the pleasure of reading that particular Fanfic. However, I have dabbled in enough Bucky FF and had my own ideas as a writer, that the scene felt like some serious Deja Vu! Big grin on my face because it really was like a FF brought to screen! This is not a complaint!  I also kept whispering "Poor, Bucky!" like a total fangirl. Only thing missing in my FF writing eyes is him mentioning connecting with some special lady back in Wakanda! lol I I'm really happy to see him get some attention. His poor date with him running out of the restaurant though! Bucky you're old enough to know better, Mister!

Quite a few emotional moments. Bucky having the peace of Wakanda ripped from him, all that he's been through, still sleeping on the floor, and realization he killed Mr. Yori's son got me. I expected him to go on a mission to figure out what happened to the son and that it would intersect with Sam's future mission, etc...

And Sam - that banker, the Fake-Cap after he generously donated the priceless shield as a historical item, his family's business. I loved his family and sister, and his attempt to make things right.

17 hours ago, SeanC said:

I get the writers wanting to bring in more 'realistic' stuff with the economics, etc., but in this case I would say that Sam should really have more options than the writers seem to want him to have here -- just set up a GoFundMe, he's a celebrity hero, he shouldn't have any problem raising the cash he needs.

I think they may be exploring the dark side of being a government op/soldier through Sam and Bucky's story. People don't like to examine that side of "serving your country", but it's very real. They taken care of financially (college fund, housing...) but the homeless population is full of former military, not to mention suicide rates and mental illness/PTSD. Also being gone for long periods of time from their families isn't easy either. 

But yeah, I'm seriously pissed that he wasn't taken care of Financially. I wonder if Endorsement deals, convention appearances, or other showbiz type deals are an option for him...

17 hours ago, Llywela said:

The implication was that while Sam still works jobs for the Air Force, those are one-off contracts rather than a fixed, regular income that can be relied on for loan repayments. That plus no employment history for the last five years of not existing just gave the bank the excuse it needed to say no. And after not existing for five years, plus most of the Avengers he was closest to being gone, I guess Sam no longer has the contacts he once had. I doubt he really knows Pepper to go to her for a loan. He's trying to do it all the right way, the old-fashioned way - the way his father taught him.

My immediate reaction to Fake-Cap was 'eww' - the appropriate reaction, I'm sure! Having a pasty (possibly evil?) nobody as Fake Cap will make it all the sweeter when Sam finally takes on the mantle himself.

Strong start to the show - although it would have been nice to have a few more women to balance out all those men, and personally I could have done without the prolonged action sequence as the opener! But it's a Marvel show and was meant, I believe, to be the first Marvel show to air, so I get why they wanted the big action sequence before getting into all the character stuff. But speaking of this being intended as the first to air - they said here that it has been several months since the Blip. In WandaVision it had only been a matter of weeks, so airing that first makes more sense.

It amused me that in Bucky's very first scene here, with the shrink, he probably had more dialogue than he's had in all his movies so far put together! And that small point drove home how little we really know the character, despite him having played such a major role in the MCU. It's good to see him and Sam getting more fleshed out here. I look forward to them actually meeting up again.

This made me LOL - you are so right. He never said much even with Cap. The most dialogue he got was with him and Sam annoying each other. And the infamous, "what the hell?" when Spiderman wasn't effected by his robo-arm in Civil War lol. 

14 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Here's my question: Why the moon? I know conspiracy theories by definition don't make a lot of sense, but why would people think Steve's on the moon, of all places. For what purpose?

I took it as a Watchman/Dr. Manhattan reference! The Umbrella Academy did something similar, as well.

Edited by shoetingstar
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47 minutes ago, Amethyst said:

That was good.  The slower pace doesn't bother me, I think we needed that after the batshit crazy WandaVision.

I didn't care for the first fight scene.  It just looked so cheap for some reason.  And the closeups to Sam when he was in the air was terrible.  Closeups on scenes like that don't usually look good, imo.

I truly sympathize with Sam wanting to save the family boat, but I'm on Sarah's side.  She's been on her own for five years, raising two small children, trying her best to keep things afloat.  She clearly doesn't want to sell it, but I see why she feels she has no choice.  Happy memories and sentiments aren't going to pay the bills.  If they can't fix the boat, what else is she supposed to do with it?  Also, she mentioned that she was a widow herself.  That couldn't have made things any easier.

The banker may have been correct about the loan, but he was still a jerk asking Sam for another selfie.  You don't turn people down then ask for something, idiot.

I feel for Bucky.  On top of shouldering a massive amount of guilt, he's completely alone in a new world and has just lost the one person who really knew him.   At least Steve had Fury and the Avengers to help him adjust to the 20th century.  Bucky just seems so lost and doesn't have any connections.  And I didn't pick up why he was so attached to Mr. Yori until the end.  Mr. Yori being old is another reason why he and Bucky are friends; Bucky's more on Yori's level than he realizes.  Technically, it's two elderly men chatting with each other.

 

I thought so, too.  I figured he was going to end up a member of that Flag organization, but I guess not.  Maybe he's just trying too hard?

Eh, Steve had fury who lied to him, manipulated him and left him on his own to destroy punching bags thinking he’d be out celebrating. Steve needed a mission (chitauri and then shield) and someone no nonsense to kick his butt (Nat). Bucky has little missions so far on his notebook but he’ll obviously getting at least one big one based and he’ll have Sam to keep him from settling into too deep a funk. He’ll be much better off. 🙂 And maybe Rhodey’ll hang around. Plus Sharon. Steve aside, I think they could actually have a good relationship. 
Yeah, the banker was a dick. I’m sure things are bad and, yes, all his points were legitimate. But don’t fawn all over some guy and then cut him off at the knees. I imagine even with everything Sam is a much better bet then a lot of candidates. I mean, Sam may not want to exploit his celebrity but the banker doesn’t know that. He should be thinking ‘he’ll, yeah, this will be successful.’ It’s not like he was asking for millions.

I actually thought the air battle went on too long. Okay, we get it. He flies. We already knew that. Could’ve done with a little trimming imo. I hope we see Beatrice again. You can’t have Georges St Pierre and keep him confined where he can’t leap and flip! 

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