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S01.E09: The Series Finale

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Why didn't they use Talos daughter to speak to Monica. They knew each other when they were kids. Unless that was supposed to be her. 

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I'm still mentally recovering but here's my quick take:

1) I cried like a motherfucking baby when Vision and Wanda tucked the kids into bed. 

2) Vision and White Vision debating metaphysical personal identity theory was amazing. I majored in philosophy in college and took a metaphysics class so I was on the floor laughing when they stopped fighting to debate metaphysics 101 together. 

3) At first I felt a little let down, like I wanted something more explosive, but then once the episode sunk in I realized that this was exactly what the show always was-a superhero having effectively a mental breakdown and fighting her way back through the grief. 

4) I definitely want to see more of what this means for Wanda, and I'm so glad we get to hopefully see more Agatha in the future since they just tucked her away in suburban NJ. 

Aside: did anyone else catch Jimmy's "Flourish" when he picked the handcuffs, like Vision did as a magician?

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I liked it, but maybe not as much as the previous couple of episodes. I'd have been happier if the Wanda vs. Agatha fight had been a bit more down to earth; the moment with Wanda conjuring up Agatha's past was more my speed . Still, all the moments between Wanda, Vision, and the kids were poignant and really made the episode.

10 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I wish there had been some explanation of where White Vision got his powers. Whatever he has in his head, it isn't an Infinity Stone. Okay, you animated him with some of Wanda's magic. But how is it being stored? Did they invent an Infinity Cubic Zirconia or something?

His whole body is still laced with vibranium bonded to his artificial flesh; one of its most consistent properties besides near-indestructibility is that it can absorb and redirect all sorts of energy. The big surprise to me was that he could still turn intangible, as I'd assumed that was a power granted by the Mind Stone rather than something Ultron built that body to do.

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Loki is dead...redeemed himself by saving Asgard...So a hit squad should be sent to erase him from all time branches and multiverses? By that rationale, Gamora!2012 should also be marked for eradication...

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3 hours ago, Kromm said:

Watch the scene again. We literally saw it happen, but the show cleverly masks it. 

Wanda completely misses Agatha several times while shooting her red energy at her. By a lot. 

Agatha doesn't realize that's happening. Wanda is making it look like a miss but is purposefully shooting at the Hex boundaries to create those runes. 

It wasn't even that masked. I didn't know why she was doing it, but the misses by a mile seemed very intentional. I thought maybe she was powering up the Hex for something.

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59 minutes ago, paigow said:

Loki is dead...redeemed himself by saving Asgard...So a hit squad should be sent to erase him from all time branches and multiverses? By that rationale, Gamora!2012 should also be marked for eradication...

Are all versions of Loki murderous villains who tried to enslave Earth? Saying that version should face some consequences isn’t the same as saying every version should face consequences.

2014 Gamora “redeemed” herself by turning against Thanos in Endgame. She isn’t the equivalent to 2012 Loki. She also was kidnapped and tortured by her “father” for years while trying to undermine his plan when possible. It’s a completely different situation than Loki. 

11 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I wish there had been some explanation of where White Vision got his powers. Whatever he has in his head, it isn't an Infinity Stone. Okay, you animated him with some of Wanda's magic. But how is it being stored? Did they invent an Infinity Cubic Zirconia or something?

Wanda had a part of the Mind stone in her so it stands to reason White Vision also has Mind stone energy within him. Wanda and Carol both have powers from an infinity stone without possessing the stone. The same is true for White Vision. 

Edited by Dani
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Gamora and Loki are two different stories. Gamora's timeline is messed up anyway due to the lack of Thanos, so it doesn't really make that much difference in which timeline she continues to exist. But Loki is a factor who will continue to mess up the timeline he is in even further. That is if we are working under the assumption that there is a main time-line which is our MCU.

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20 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Hell yeah to the Scarlet Witch outfit!!!! A++++!

That is now my favorite costume/look in the MCU. 2nd is Hela. Guess I like horns. 

The Vision(s) fight was very Matrix 3, Neo vs Smith in the beginning. Loved the strategies with phasing that separated the fight from previous flying superhero fights. The resolution was genius though. 

Overall I feel like we got a great Wanda and Vision movie with this series. If this is the quality we can expect from the Disney + series, I'm all in. 

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Emotionally and acting wise, that was on point.  It's called WandaVision, but Elizabeth Olsen carried this show.  She deserves an Emmy nod at least.  

It did feel anticlimactic, though.  The Vision fight was OK.  I hated that line from Monica about the townspeople not knowing what she did for them.  Well yeah Monica,  because Wanda trapped them trapped in the hex in agonizing pain, unable to even sleep because Wanda's nightmares were poisoning them.  She even tried choking them when the begging got to be too much.  They're right to be angry.  And they've been exposed to the radiation in the Hex, something they don't realize yet.  Wanda did the right thing in the end by freeing everyone in Westview, but she's the person who trapped them there in the first place and only stopped because Agatha lifted the veil of magic.  They're not obligated to feel bad for her.  

Hoped to see more of Monica in the finale, instead of being trapped in the house with Fietro.  And Darcy felt wasted after that blah chit chatty stuff with Vision.  Maybe she couldn't return due to Covid?  I know they had a lot to show in the finale, but some of these things were bread crumbs that they dropped.  It's not all fan theories.  Even an after credit scene would have been nice.

I'm fine with Wanda living in the mountains by herself.  Not as a punishment, but because she really is too powerful for anyone else to restrain.  And I like to think that she has some happiness knowing that her powers come from her, not just the mind stone.  

Didn't like the Fox version of QS, so I'm fine with Pietro/Peter being some rando named Ralph.

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14 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

What's also unambiguous is that MCU canon has forcefully established that the Winter Soldier's victims don't deserve justice. Not just Howard and Maria Stark, but anyone else who found themselves on his hit list. Saint Steve Rogers himself decreed that because Bucky "didn't mean to" then everyone is just supposed to be okay with the potentially unstable killing machine walking around free, so what moral standard are we talking about? If Bucky was totally innocent and not dangerous, it was wrong for him to go back into cryo in Wakanda, but that was his decision. Why do Wanda's victims matter and no one else's do?

How would it be justice to punish someone who literally had no control over his actions? Bucky didn't kill people deliberately or accidentally, he made no conscious decisions whatsoever that led to the deaths of any of those people. He was a weapon, pointed at each of them by someone else. Tony wanted vengeance against Bucky, not justice for his parents.

Wanda, as far as I can tell, didn't kill anyone in Westview. She messed with their minds and subjected them to a terrible ordeal, but again she did it unconsciously. She's more culpable than Bucky because she did come to understand that she was controlling things, but didn't stop. However, the superhero genre really isn't big on legal restitution for victims, and punishment almost always comes either from the hero beating up the villain or the hero beating him or herself up for the damage done.

13 hours ago, FierceCritter said:

I know that Aaron Taylor-Johnson is more popular with a lot of forum posters than Even Peters. But my biggest (well, ONLY) bummer at the death of the Fox X-Men franchise was the thought of never seeing EP as Quicksilver again. IMO, he was the best thing about those movies. And I secretly hoped that since he was so popular, they'd work him into the MARVEL/Disney universe. So when he appeared at the door, I was X-Static (sorry not sorry for taking advantage of that opportunity). Seriously. I paused, jumped on the laptop, got on Facebook, and posted, "Holy shit, Marvel did it - they figured out how to do it." "It" being how to get EP - if nobody else - into the MCU mutant future.

Niehter of them played a Pietro who was anything like the comic book character. Pietro has always had a cold, superior arrogance and irritability to him. Peter David explained it in an issue of X-Factor quite brilliantly as Pietro constantly feeling like he's stuck with or behind people moving too slowly all the time. Everyone is in his way, everyone is an obstruction when he wants to go anywhere.

Aaron Taylor-Johnson's Pietro was... a bit snarky? That was his personality, I think? Evan Peters' Pietro is a carefree, hyperactive goofball (which is more like Wally West's Flash than it is Quicksilver) and while that's fun and I wouldn't mind it in the MCU, I also don't mind them just leaving Pietro dead.

I was hoping that this show would give us the first seeds of mutants in the MCU - if not with a multiverse Pietro then maybe with the source of Wanda's powers, or even with Wanda creating mutants by altering reality. But apparently we aren't there yet, sadly.

17 minutes ago, Amethyst said:

It's called WandaVision, but Elizabeth Olsen carried this show.  She deserves an Emmy nod at least.  

If she doesn't get award nominations then it will be due to the awarding bodies looking down their noses as "genre television" again. She's been a powerhouse for the entirety of this show, being asked to do so many different things and doing them all with aplomb. I've always thought she was a quiet star in the MCU, and had some spectacular little moments - her line delivery of "you will" when Thanos said he didn't know her was incredible - but this was her time to shine and she did, like a supernova.

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3 hours ago, paigow said:

Loki is dead...redeemed himself by saving Asgard...So a hit squad should be sent to erase him from all time branches and multiverses? By that rationale, Gamora!2012 should also be marked for eradication...

Well hunting people down throughout the timelines often ends very badly, even when they have done something terrible in all of them, so that's probably not a good idea. 

It's up to the people in each timeline to try and stop their Loki from doing whatever he's up to. Loki2012 is freshly post Avengers and hasn't sacrificed his life to try and stop Thanos and continued to deliberately cause chaos until his death, so I'm not surprised the TVA is after him. He probably will spend time trying to escape them and his consequences and possible redemption won't be being incarcerated and then wiped from existence for his crimes by any kind of "authority".  

Gamora was already working against Thanos pre GOTG, albeit secretly but there were certainly people who didn't care about that and just wanted to murder her in the Kiln. 

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Tommy taking the hat and glasses from the soldiers was a clear reference to Peter/Quicksilver's Time in a Bottle sequence in Days of Futures Past ... which as someone who was holding out hope that Peters was playing his X-Men character, really just seems like salt in the wounds from the show.

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Btw, that the Darkhold looks different doesn't bother me, because in Agents of Shield it was pretty much established that the book becomes whatever the reader wants or think that he or she needs. so it makes completely sense that for Agnes it is explaining something about witches. The question to me is more how it ended up with Agnes.

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6 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Tommy taking the hat and glasses from the soldiers was a clear reference to Peter/Quicksilver's Time in a Bottle sequence in Days of Futures Past ... which as someone who was holding out hope that Peters was playing his X-Men character, really just seems like salt in the wounds from the show.

From my neutral observer POV (I never watched most of the Fox X-movies), that sounds more like a loving homage/allusion. Sometimes creators like the thing we fans like and want to include some reference to it but for all sorts of reasons they can’t or won’t go all in on the thing… but that doesn’t mean they’re trying to troll us.

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20 hours ago, Amethyst said:

I hated that line from Monica about the townspeople not knowing what she did for them.

I'd have to rewind to check, but I don't believe that's what she actually said. I think it was closer to "they don't know what you gave up", and I'm not even sure if the "for them" was on that. 

All three possibilities have slightly different shades of meaning. "Did for them" would arrogantly dismiss all responsibility for putting the people in that spot in the first place. "Gave up" is more neutral, especially without the "for them" (if it wasn't there, I mean). 

19 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

If she doesn't get award nominations then it will be due to the awarding bodies looking down their noses as "genre television" again.

I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I think the BIGGEST snub would be if this doesn't get the Costuming Emmy. I mean besides all of the perfect period clothes, the Mary Tyler Moore outfit, the famous Fish Pants, the kooky 80s plaids, etc the costumer did something I think nearly 100% of comics fans previously thought impossible. Made a Scarlet Witch outfit that LOOKS like the Scarlet Witch, down to the headpiece, and made it look incredible on an actual human body. If that person doesn't get an Emmy, I'll know the Emmy Org are hacks. 

Edited by Kromm
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I'd think the inhabitants of Westview might be more sympathetic to Wanda than people are supposing precisely because they're aware the nightmares and grief they were experiencing were hers. What they went through at her hands was awful, but they know she's undergoing it too, and that her actions were born out of that suffering. I'd like to think Monica's reaction isn't necessarily atypical.

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Other people probably already noticed this, but all the "M"s we saw and thought "Ooh, Mephisto!"...it was the shape of her Scarlet Witch crown. This show was so tightly scripted and the set design was on-point. Well played, show. Very well played.  

Edited by TheWereCow
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10 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

His whole body is still laced with vibranium bonded to his artificial flesh; one of its most consistent properties besides near-indestructibility is that it can absorb and redirect all sorts of energy. The big surprise to me was that he could still turn intangible, as I'd assumed that was a power granted by the Mind Stone rather than something Ultron built that body to do.

 

9 hours ago, Dani said:

Wanda had a part of the Mind stone in her so it stands to reason White Vision also has Mind stone energy within him. Wanda and Carol both have powers from an infinity stone without possessing the stone. The same is true for White Vision. 

This just makes me wonder if the vibranium absorbed some of the mind stone and the phasing, could it have also absorbed some of the essence/personality of the original Vision (the one twice-killed in Wakanda)? Is personality an energy? We often talk about someone's "energy" meaning personality. And since White Vision was obviously intended to be able to think enough to carry out programming but not enough to question that programming, why was it so easy for him to reject that programming? Was it because the vibranium absorbed some of the experience and humanity, for lack of a better term, of the original host of that vibranium?

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2 hours ago, Kromm said:

I'd have to rewind to check, but I don't believe that's what she actually said. I think it was closer to "they don't know what you gave up", and I'm not even sure if the "for them" was on that. 

She says "they'll never know what you sacrificed for them".  Which comes across as painting the Westview folks as unnecessarily vindictive because they're just pissed about the mental torture and getting controlled (to the point of preferring death) and aren't taking Wanda's grief into account.  If Monica really expected them to do be anything less than furious hours after getting released then she's an idiot.

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I get the complaints about Wanda facing no consequences but I remember the complaints at the end of AGE OF ULTRON about Tony's actions and then then them being addressed in CIVIL WAR. Then the same complaints regarding Tony and Cap at the end of that movie, but that led to their being no team to deal with Thanos in INFINITY WAR. So I do think this will have repercussions not just in the next project Wanda is in, but also the MCU.

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13 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

She says "they'll never know what you sacrificed for them".  Which comes across as painting the Westview folks as unnecessarily vindictive because they're just pissed about the mental torture and getting controlled (to the point of preferring death) and aren't taking Wanda's grief into account.  If Monica really expected them to do be anything less than furious hours after getting released then she's an idiot.

I don't think it is saying anything about Westview folks.

I think it is saying something about the nature of grief.

As a matter of fact, we do not know how much the average Westview person knows about what Wanda was giving up. We know that they experienced Wanda's voice in their heads and her grief, but not what exactly the voice was saying or that Wanda did this to resurrect Vision and build a family.

Unequivocally, subverting the wills of thousands to experience a happy fiction is evil. But it is easy to say that from the position of someone who will never have to experience the profound grief Wanda did and who will not be in a position to actually make that choice.

It would be all too easy to rationalize the choice -- well, they aren't REALLY suffering all that much, 

19 hours ago, swanpride said:

Btw, that the Darkhold looks different doesn't bother me, because in Agents of Shield it was pretty much established that the book becomes whatever the reader wants or think that he or she needs. so it makes completely sense that for Agnes it is explaining something about witches. The question to me is more how it ended up with Agnes.

It could simply be that there is more than one copy. 

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7 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

How would it be justice to punish someone who literally had no control over his actions? Bucky didn't kill people deliberately or accidentally, he made no conscious decisions whatsoever that led to the deaths of any of those people. He was a weapon, pointed at each of them by someone else. Tony wanted vengeance against Bucky, not justice for his parents.

Wanda, as far as I can tell, didn't kill anyone in Westview. She messed with their minds and subjected them to a terrible ordeal, but again she did it unconsciously. She's more culpable than Bucky because she did come to understand that she was controlling things, but didn't stop. However, the superhero genre really isn't big on legal restitution for victims, and punishment almost always comes either from the hero beating up the villain or the hero beating him or herself up for the damage done.

I don't entirely disagree with you. But right along the people who want Wanda to face (more) consequences and (more) punishment have either skimmed over or downplayed the extenuating factors. Agatha's involvement. Hayward being needlessly dickish and sometimes actively stupid  literally every second he was on screen. That Wanda didn't kill anyone when she had the chance, and she did have chances. That the Avengers who are still alive and active left her to her own devices when they A) know what she went through and B) know what she's capable of.

It's the bolded part that gets to me, that now there should be restitution for the victims or a lengthy prison sentence for Wanda. Should we have been keeping a running tally all along for the mess powered individuals leave behind? Should we start keeping one when the new shows start airing? That should be fun. Hawkeye's not in prison. Loki's not in prison. Bucky's not in prison, and I don't even think Hydra is a thing anymore so there's no one behind the scenes to hold accountable for the creation of the Winter Solider. Even with "he didn't mean to kill anyone", those people are still quite dead, and I specifically said that Howard and Maria Stark were not the only victims. Is Sam still considered a criminal, or does taking up the mantle of Captain America absolve him? I guess we have to wait and see on that.

The point I was trying to make is that Wanda took the same route Bucky did, remove herself from the equation until she's either more stable or has a better handle on her powers or both. It seems a little bit like people who want her to face Real World consequences just like to see her suffer, since not since AoU has there been such a demand for a lead character to be punished for what started as an accident.

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It was okay.

I didn’t tear up or bawl like a baby.

The fight with Agatha and Wanda was okay. I still like the Infinity War and Endgame fights better.

Wanda morphing into the Scarlet Witch?  With the costume? THAT was AWESOME!

Edited by GHScorpiosRule
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47 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I don't entirely disagree with you. But right along the people who want Wanda to face (more) consequences and (more) punishment have either skimmed over or downplayed the extenuating factors. Agatha's involvement. Hayward being needlessly dickish and sometimes actively stupid  literally every second he was on screen. That Wanda didn't kill anyone when she had the chance, and she did have chances. That the Avengers who are still alive and active left her to her own devices when they A) know what she went through and B) know what she's capable of.

It's the bolded part that gets to me, that now there should be restitution for the victims or a lengthy prison sentence for Wanda. Should we have been keeping a running tally all along for the mess powered individuals leave behind? Should we start keeping one when the new shows start airing? That should be fun. Hawkeye's not in prison. Loki's not in prison. Bucky's not in prison, and I don't even think Hydra is a thing anymore so there's no one behind the scenes to hold accountable for the creation of the Winter Solider. Even with "he didn't mean to kill anyone", those people are still quite dead, and I specifically said that Howard and Maria Stark were not the only victims. Is Sam still considered a criminal, or does taking up the mantle of Captain America absolve him? I guess we have to wait and see on that.

The point I was trying to make is that Wanda took the same route Bucky did, remove herself from the equation until she's either more stable or has a better handle on her powers or both. It seems a little bit like people who want her to face Real World consequences just like to see her suffer, since not since AoU has there been such a demand for a lead character to be punished for what started as an accident.

With all due respect, I think you're presuming a lot about people's intentions. 

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not looking for Real World consequences.  I'm looking for acknowledgement that consequences are due. 

The show ducked that until the very end, but then it was more of a nod than a full acknowledgement. 

A pattern of pointing to every other time Marvel skimped on consequences denies the complexity they tried to bring by focusing most of six hours to one character, vs. other projects where no character got more than a few minutes. I think it's fair to expect more from this format, especially since the show itself brought the issue up several times. 

I'm not nearly as unhappy with the situation as I was an episode ago, because as I've said elsewhere, I like that they at least had Wanda acknowledge she didn't expect forgiveness. And that normal jail certainly wouldn't be ideal given her unconscious ability to cause chaos. But even given that, I can't handwave away her culpability either. If she's a complex character now, given her long format exposure, this needs to haunt her for far more reasons than just her personal losses. 

Rejoining the Avengers is the big issue. No sign she's gonna do it anytime soon, but when she eventually does they need to spare a scene to explain why it's possible at that point. 

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57 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I don't entirely disagree with you. But right along the people who want Wanda to face (more) consequences and (more) punishment have either skimmed over or downplayed the extenuating factors. Agatha's involvement. Hayward being needlessly dickish and sometimes actively stupid  literally every second he was on screen. That Wanda didn't kill anyone when she had the chance, and she did have chances. That the Avengers who are still alive and active left her to her own devices when they A) know what she went through and B) know what she's capable of.

None of those are extenuating circumstances, though.  Agatha didn't do anything to start or continue the fiction, she just played along with it.  Hayward was hostile, but so what?  If you're holding a whole town hostage you should expect to face hostile authorities.  The Avengers leaving her alone, likewise, irrelevant.

Quote

Bucky's not in prison, and I don't even think Hydra is a thing anymore so there's no one behind the scenes to hold accountable for the creation of the Winter Solider. Even with "he didn't mean to kill anyone", those people are still quite dead, and I specifically said that Howard and Maria Stark were not the only victims. 

Obviously the Starks weren't the only victims, but why does that matter?  Bucky is no more responsible for those other deaths than he is for theirs.

For the record, I'm not especially concerned with getting bogged down in legal technicalities.  My main issue is that the narrative makes Wanda an unequivocal villain for most of the narrative and then tries very hard to wave all that away at the end.  The stuff with Monica is very blatantly written to let the character off the hook.

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I find it very telling that Wanda could have done some memory wiping or obfuscating on the Westview residents after bringing down the hex but chose not to. In fact, part of Agatha's punishment is to forget. I'm interpreting that to mean that Wanda is accepting consequences and the anger that Westview and the larger world will have for her.

Edited by Kate47 · Reason: Editing for clarity
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7 minutes ago, Kate47 said:

In fact, part of Agatha's punishment is to forget.

Did Agatha forget or is she trapped inside a character she is forced to play?  Does she have awareness of who she as she is forced to play the cheery nosey neighbor saying corny lines that she would never say on her own?

I enjoyed the episode and the series.  I was a little worried that a lot was going to be left unresolved and left hanging until the next Marvel movie.  I thought they did good job wrapping up series and dropping a few teases about what might be next.

I am a fairly casual Marvel viewer.  I have seen most but not all of the movies but not that knowledgeable of the Marvel Universe outside that.  My X-Men information might come from the 1990's cartoon and some memory of the first two movies of the original 2000'a series and think I only saw the first one of the redo set back in the 60s.  Because of that, I really did not have a huge investment of an alternative Pietro and took Agatha's word for it in the previous episode that he was just some random person, and his purpose was more of just throwing Wanda off emotionally.  Plus, his sitcom character really did fit the trope of the irresponsible younger brother of a sitcom parent.

There are so many high concept tv shows the last 15 years or so (perhaps starting around the time of Lost or going back further Twin Peaks)  -- whether hero related and/or sci-fi related that would greatly benefit from a limited nine episode run.   So many of those shows have a good original idea but flounder when either the original plot/mystery is resolved and they struggle to find some reason to keep all of the characters in the same environment or they keep stretching out the original premise past its expiration date to keep the series going.

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On 3/5/2021 at 1:24 AM, Featherhat said:

WandaVision have become my favourite couple in the MCU which wasn’t hard. Tony and Pepper were only at no 1 because of their chemistry not their writing particularly and Steve/Peggy are awesome but I have to do a lot of handwaving Endgame.

I've got too many likes/reps to give, so rather than multiquote just about every single post, I'll just chime in on this:

Steve/Peggy will always be my OTP Marvel pairing (although I acknowledge their romantic relationship should have been more/better developed).  So as a Steve/Peggy 'shipper, my 'shipper heart burst out in utter happiness at how Endgame ended (while my brain was saying no way, no how Steve would abandon his role in the present to go and have a happy life in the past, because that meant Steve "I hate bullies" Rogers witnessed all the injustice (racism/sexism/etc.) from post-WWII and didn't have a big role in making life more equitable for everyone.

I'm neutral on Tony/Pepper - even Avengers: Endgame didn't make me care much for them as a couple. Whereas it took this series for me to truly view Wanda/Vision as a couple because the medium of tv allowed their relationship to truly be fleshed out.

 

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I certainly don't consider Wanda heroic. I think she should be in jail for what she did, actually. Ironically, the Hero of Westview is really Agatha. While she had unquestionably bad motivations and performed bad acts (and as such deserves to be punished), in the course of episodes 8 and 9 she broke through to Wanda and forced her to see the hell she was making for everyone else.

Relatedly, I was pretty pissed off by Rambeau's "they have no idea what you sacrificed for them" line. As if the townies should be grateful for what they were put through. Pffffft.

Edited by QuantumMechanic
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19 hours ago, questionfear said:

I'm still mentally recovering but here's my quick take:

1) I cried like a motherfucking baby when Vision and Wanda tucked the kids into bed.

For me, this was the most emotional scene in the whole series.  "Thank you for choosing me to be your mom" indeed!  Sniff,sniff...

13 hours ago, lynxfx said:

Overall I feel like we got a great Wanda and Vision movie with this series. If this is the quality we can expect from the Disney + series, I'm all in. 

WandaVision has set the high standard. Falcon & the Winter Soldier and/or Loki series have big shoes to fill.

4 hours ago, CCTC said:

I enjoyed the episode and the series.  I was a little worried that a lot was going to be left unresolved and left hanging until the next Marvel movie.  I thought they did good job wrapping up series and dropping a few teases about what might be next.

Yes, ultimately, this is my feeling on this series as well.

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38 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

I certainly don't consider Wanda heroic. I think she should be in jail for what she did, actually. Ironically, the Hero of Westview is really Agatha. While she had unquestionably bad motivations and performed bad acts (and as such deserves to be punished), in the course of episodes 8 and 9 she broke through to Wanda and forced her to see the hell she was making for everyone else.

Relatedly, I was pretty pissed off by Rambeau's "they have no idea what you sacrificed for them" line. As if the townies should be grateful for what they were put through. Pffffft.

THIS!  My mouth dropped when Monica said that line.  What?!  No, Wanda CREATED their pain and misery. She kidnapped them and tortured them, and even though it began without her knowledge, by the time she kicked Geraldine/Monica out of the Hex and then left the Hex and threatened SWORD, a part of her KNEW and continued to put Westview through misery.  I mean, even when people were begging Wanda to kill them rather than go back to being under control, or how Dottie was willing to go back if only she could be with her child, even THEN, Wanda refused their pain and their suffering. 

So Wanda didn't sacrifice ANYTHING. She ended the misery and suffering SHE created. That was easily the worst line of the entire series, because it completely undermines Wanda's behaviour.  Yes, she was feeling enormous grief and trauma, but she was STILL THE VILLAIN.  She still created the nightmare and only ended it when she couldn't deny it any further. She doesn't get a gold star here. So the show trying to downplay it was super frustrating. It's okay to let Wanda be the villain. Choosing to leave and live isolated while learning all about her powers and controlling them is a GOOD choice. It shows she would never want to repeat Westview again, that she understands what she did to them. Having Monica act like Wanda was selfless or something was a big fat no no.

And quite frankly, how long would the Hex have continued if Agatha DIDN'T show up?  Agatha was the one to force Wanda to confront her trauma. Agatha was the one to basically tear down the walls of denial that Wanda had created. Vision was definitely getting there, but Agatha was the only one with the power to control Wanda, even for a bit, to break through.  Agatha was certainly a villain of her own, but she pushed Wanda in the right direction. 

SWORD was basically pointless, wasn't it?  By the end, Monica, Jimmy, Darcy and Hayward were kind of awkwardly standing around a lot of the time. I like Darcy and Jimmy and I loved meeting Monica, but they ultimately feel wasted in the series. I think the show would have been much better had it just been Vision, Wanda and Agatha in the Hex as things slowly start to unravel and Wanda finally deals with her grief and trauma.

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Okay...consequences...let's see….

Loki naturally should have gotten punished but then, Earth gave the jurisdiction over him to Asgard. If Thor wants to pardon him after he helped to rescue the last survivors of Asgard, that's what happens. And we don't know what would have happened if he had actually been back on earth.

Black Widow has famously "red in her ledger" but she DID gave herself up to Shield. The deal she had isn't that unusual - and most likely she didn't even request it, Shield just decided to use her because they liked her skills.

Bucky is completely innocent. Any non-corrupt law system in the world would acquit him. And it is not even that difficult to proof that he is innocent considering that there are helpfully recording aso of what was done to him. And witnesses who can confirm what the brain washing did to him. And doctors who treated him.

Tony always has the rich man's luck. He mostly escapes punishment for his actions because he is rich, not because he is a superhero. Same with T'Challa who has the additional benefit of being a prince/king. So you can easily overlook him trying to kill an innocent man out of a misguided desire for revenge. 

Clint is a murderer many times over, something which hopefully will be addressed in the future.

And Wanda, well, as the show itself pointed out, intention is an important factor to judge someone's actions. Wanda didn't intend to do any of this. She wasn't even aware that she WAS doing it in the beginning.  

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Relatedly, I was pretty pissed off by Rambeau's "they have no idea what you sacrificed for them" line. As if the townies should be grateful for what they were put through. Pffffft.

I didn't like that line either. I actually like Wanda and I'm fine with her not getting hauled off to prison and I understand why Monica forgives her. However, Wanda is a pretty grey character. She can be heroic and her intentions are not malicious but she did a messed up thing. Monica could have forgiven Wanda without sugar coating her actions. 

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On 3/5/2021 at 4:02 AM, vb68 said:

Well that was certainly an epic finale.  It's a lot to process. I'm definitely going to re-watch it later today sometime to catch everything and soak it in more. I will say almost everything I was so sure was going to happen, did not at all. I thought the end did very well by Wanda and Vision. And Monica for that matter, too. And Wanda remains perhaps the saddest character in the whole MCU.

More later. 

I hope you guys have good analysis of the second credit scene because I'm not sure I really understood what was actually happening there. 

Oh one thing that I was disappointed in was that Darcy 's whole plot and character just kinda went poof. They could have had her with Jimmy and Monica at the end.

How could anything have surprised anyone, when what happened was exactly what we knew had to happen back in episode 3, once it became clear Wanda was grieving, created the town narrative to make a dreamworld and needed therapy? Her fantasy had to end at some point. When it did, Vision and the kids had to go poof. We spent 5-6 agonizing episodes featuring sitcoms to get us to a point we knew would arrive. Agnes was the most interesting thing about this show, and she arrived too late in the season and disappointingly forgot her own rule. This entire season was a snoozer, and the only thing that should have happened was Wanda should have gone to jail for holding all those people hostage.

Edited by Ottis

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2 hours ago, Vella said:

So Wanda didn't sacrifice ANYTHING. She ended the misery and suffering SHE created.

I agree that ending the sitcom-ification of the town isn’t a real sacrifice. But she basically had to kill her created Vision and the twins, and I think that was a genuine sacrifice.

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9 hours ago, SeanC said:

My main issue is that the narrative makes Wanda an unequivocal villain for most of the narrative and then tries very hard to wave all that away at the end.  

I think that's a matter of interpretation, and not at all unequivocal. In fact, I still don't see her as a "villain" with the malice that term implies, even if she's not really heroic through most of the show either. But then I don't see this really as much about "heroes and villains" so...

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

How could anything have surprised anyone, when what happened was exactly what we knew had to happen back in episode 3, once it became clear Wanda was grieving, created the town narrative to make a dreamworld and needed therapy? Her fantasy had to end at some point. When it did, Vision and the kids had to go poof. We spent 5-6 agonizing episodes featuring sitcoms to get us to a point we knew would arrive. Agnes was the most interesting thing about this show, and she arrived too late in the season and disappointingly forgot her own rule. This entire season was a snoozer, and the only thing that should have happened was Wanda should have gone to jail for holding all those people hostage.

This show wasn't about the destination. It was always about the journey. It's how we get there that matters, not if you can guess the broadest strokes of the plot.

Edited by Ailianna
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On 3/5/2021 at 8:16 PM, Zonk said:
On 3/5/2021 at 8:12 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

If someone on trial for murder claims insanity it is up to them to prove it is true.

Öhm, nope. The burdon of proof is on the state. Innocent until proofen guilty.

It's an affirmative defense. The prosecution has to establish that the elements of the crime took place.  The defense has to establish insanity.  https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/insanity_defense: "In an insanity defense, the defendant admits the action but asserts a lack of culpability based on mental illness."

The prosecution does not have to prove that every criminal defendant is sane in order to obtain a guilty verdict. There is a presumption of sanity which the defense must overcome.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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I never considered regular civilian consequences for wanda cause what can hold her? 

I also didn’t really blink twice about what Monica said to Wanda about westview never knowing what she sacrificed because it’s true, and it’s also true that the people of WestView don’t owe Wanda a damn thing. 

One of the risks I thought marvel took with Wanda here was toeing that line between what makes a hero and what makes a villain, which doesn’t correlate to “right vs wrong”. She’s very much wrong and she was wrong to turn a blind eye to selfishly live out her HEA, but when faced point blank with what she’s done and how these people have been living, (she insinuated that they were living peacefully) she knows what she has to do and does it. She had to let vision and her children go and accept that loss. 

It ended like an MCU product but this show has been about the internal vs the external and I thought it delivered beautifully.

What was always gonna kill it for some was the massive theories people were building in their heads.

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I could say so much about the show but I want to echo what you all have said here- regarding Elizabeth Olsen’s talent, and Wanda as a complex character. Loki and  Falcon & Winter Solider have HUGE shoes to fill. Paul Bettany is certainly excellent in the role of Vision and are my favorite MCU couple, since they messed up Banner & Natasha. 

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4 hours ago, swanpride said:

Loki naturally should have gotten punished but then, Earth gave the jurisdiction over him to Asgard. If Thor wants to pardon him after he helped to rescue the last survivors of Asgard, that's what happens. And we don't know what would have happened if he had actually been back on earth.

Black Widow has famously "red in her ledger" but she DID gave herself up to Shield. The deal she had isn't that unusual - and most likely she didn't even request it, Shield just decided to use her because they liked her skills.

I was watching Winter Soldier tonight with my kids and I was thinking about this comment. Does Natasha really have red in her ledger if she is working at the request of her government? If she does well then Cap does too because I don't think I saw him throwing life jackets to the guys he knocked off the ship. And Fury basically set those guys up to be killed. 

As for Loki what he tried to do to earth was bad but at least equally bad was how he tried to destroy Jotunheim, and he completely got away with that one. Of course anything he is guilty of Odin is guilty of way worse what with all the conquering he did with Hela.

Edited by Kel Varnsen
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34 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I could say so much about the show but I want to echo what you all have said here- regarding Elizabeth Olsen’s talent, and Wanda as a complex character. Loki and  Falcon & Winter Solider have HUGE shoes to fill. Paul Bettany is certainly excellent in the role of Vision and are my favorite MCU couple, since they messed up Banner & Natasha. 

I may be late to the party but this show has been been a revelation for Elizabeth Olsen. Just wow. She carried this show on her back! It would not have worked if she didn’t. 
 

WandaVision is making me hyped for Falcon and the Winter Soldier and LOKI.

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20 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

If she doesn't get award nominations then it will be due to the awarding bodies looking down their noses as "genre television" again. She's been a powerhouse for the entirety of this show, being asked to do so many different things and doing them all with aplomb. 

One thing that might benefit this show come Emmy time is how well those first few episodes managed to copy the style of classic sitcoms. One thing the Emmys sure love to do is talk about and remind people how awesome "the Golden age of tv" was.

 

11 hours ago, SeanC said:

None of those are extenuating circumstances, though.  Agatha didn't do anything to start or continue the fiction, she just played along with it.  

I do wonder how Agatha managed to find Wanda and Westview. Was she drawn to Wanda's powers? Or was she already in the area for some reason?

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I just realized: “I have been a voice with no body” / “We’ve said our goodbyes before” means our Vision downloaded the memories from nu-Vision in the library as well as unlocking them for nu-Vision. 

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On 3/5/2021 at 4:11 AM, Kromm said:

I guess she's not Arcana Jones, like many assumed.

Had to look her up.  Nope, we're not near corrupt-as-hell-authoritarian-superhero-parallel-Earth time yet.

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6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I do wonder how Agatha managed to find Wanda and Westview. Was she drawn to Wanda's powers? Or was she already in the area for some reason?

She did mention sensing the power of the hex and coming to investigate, but she never said where she was.  Maybe closer than NYC since an unprecedented spell that lasted for days apparently wasn't enough to ping the radar of Dr. Strange, Wong, or anyone else.

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9 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

It's an affirmative defense. The prosecution has to establish that the elements of the crime took place.  The defense has to establish insanity.  https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/insanity_defense: "In an insanity defense, the defendant admits the action but asserts a lack of culpability based on mental illness."

The prosecution does not have to prove that every criminal defendant is sane in order to obtain a guilty verdict. There is a presumption of sanity which the defense must overcome.

Again, different states have different approaches to the insanity defense. In most, the defendants have the burden of proof to show that they were not sane. In some, the state has the burden of proof to show that they were sane.

https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-procedure/the-insanity-defense-among-the-states.html

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43 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

She did mention sensing the power of the hex and coming to investigate, but she never said where she was.  Maybe closer than NYC since an unprecedented spell that lasted for days apparently wasn't enough to ping the radar of Dr. Strange, Wong, or anyone else.

That is one thing I'm curious about; Agatha said Wanda's powers rivaled that of the Sorcerer Supreme - and Kamar-Taj's whole raison d'être (or at least, their Sanctums) is to protect our reality.  So... seems like everything happening in Westview was right up their alley.

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The Scarlet Witch is a Darkhold prophecy. Agatha is 500 years old and never saw one. Strange has never read the Darkhold, so he cannot be sure of what is happening in Westview.

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4 hours ago, arc said:

I just realized: “I have been a voice with no body” / “We’ve said our goodbyes before” means our Vision downloaded the memories from nu-Vision in the library as well as unlocking them for nu-Vision. 

Yes he did!

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