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S01.E09: The Series Finale

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The events of WandaVision come to a head, and the destinies of who took part are determined.

Season finale, dropping Friday, March 5, 2021.

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I liked it overall.  It went basically how I thought it would go, with Wanda having to say goodbye to the kids and Vision (not knowing that White Vision has become Vision, of course), and her having some final words with Monica.  I was kind of disappointed Monica didn't have more to do, but then, this isn't her show, and the mid-credits teased at some of the adventures she'll have in store.

I loved how Wanda embraced her Scarlet Witch identity (knew the runes would come in handy, too).  I'm really glad there were no major cameos, unless the alien (same as from Captain Marvel?) counts.  The "goodbye" scenes were touching, and it's right that the people of Westview would now hate Wanda, though her being able to fly away from the repercussions will likely be controversial.

But whoa, that final bit!  Was that our Wanda peering in at another universe's Wanda, or an evil Wanda?  Guess we'll find out in Dr. Strange 2.

ETA: Was also disappointed that "Pietro" wasn't actually Peter Maximoff from the Fox X-Men universe, though at least we finally got to meet Ralph!

Edited by Brn2bwild
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Well that was certainly an epic finale.  It's a lot to process. I'm definitely going to re-watch it later today sometime to catch everything and soak it in more. I will say almost everything I was so sure was going to happen, did not at all. I thought the end did very well by Wanda and Vision. And Monica for that matter, too. And Wanda remains perhaps the saddest character in the whole MCU.

More later. 

I hope you guys have good analysis of the second credit scene because I'm not sure I really understood what was actually happening there. 

Oh one thing that I was disappointed in was that Darcy 's whole plot and character just kinda went poof. They could have had her with Jimmy and Monica at the end.

Edited by vb68
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It was good the entire series was really good but some bits disappointed me just at the end. Probably because they built up so much anticipation and myster throughout each episode. 
 

Mainly no Darcey - was Kat Dennings unavailable? It was weird she barely featured. I know Monica and Jimmy were also minimal but they were still there. That throwaway line about her not liking briefs didn’t fit. 
 

The Ralph reveal was a bit meh. Overall I expected bigger things from the Agatha storyline or for it to tie in with the main storyline but it didn’t really.

Also the beekeeper speculation went nowhere - he obviously just got absorbed into the craziness with the rest of the townsfolk.

I wonder where Vision 2.0 went - I thought he’d stick around to help Wanda.

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That was like a mini-movie! Loved it. Loved that last clip with Wanda living in what looked a little cabin among some happy little trees and some big old mountains, exactly as painted by Bob Ross. While her witch-self eats up knowledge. She’s becoming something new, something stronger. 

Before this my main appreciation of Wanda and Vision was their great taste in cities to hide in (Edinburgh), but I think most people have become really invested in them, as much as we might have been invested in The Cap and Peggy or Tony and Pepper. They are officially an epic star-crossed romance now.

I still don’t buy Ralph Bohner isn’t Peter on some level, though. They can retcon that whenever they like. They really hired Evan Peters just as a joke? Nah, come on. He’s something else. Either that, or it’ll turn out that the Speedy Powers didn’t leave him when Monica broke the spell.

So Agatha-Agnes is left living an ordinary life in Westview? Isn’t that a bit... dangerous? I dread to think what could happen to that town. She’ll be back.

The kids are still out there somewhere, in danger. Somehow, they are part of something bigger. What remains of Vision is out there somewhere, even if he doesn’t have his emotions, that’s solvable because Wanda still contains his Mind stone self somewhere inside herself. There’s still so much hope left for Wanda, even if she doesn’t know it.

Monica is out for space adventures.  S.W.O.R.D might have to wait a little longer for her to be their leader. I’m so looking forward to what happens next. She’s going to be in Captain Marvel 2, right?

We need a series where Darcy and Jimmy fight crime. The Ordinary Avengers?

Edited by Lebanna
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My only question: where is white Vision? 
 

Fantastic episode. So many theories didn’t happen🤣

 

  Just like this show is the best, most ambitious, and most emotionally resonant thing the MCU has made, the last scene between Wanda and Vision is the best scene in the whole MCU. 

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So Fietro was Ralph but Ralph was... just some actor. Finding it interesting that Agatha (or was it Wanda?) can grant random people superpowers. Unless this isn’t the last we see of him in the MCU...

Wonder if the Westview residents will recognize Agnes as Agatha, but maybe they all were able to ignore the other witch flying overhead while yelling taunts at Wanda.

Wasn’t Dr. Strange also able to multitask by creating copies of himself, or am I misremembering? Looks like she’s finding a way to revive the twins. Maybe they’re saving the villain everyone was expecting here for Dr. Strange 2, then.

Funny how everyone assumed this show would end directly tying to the next Spider-Man and Dr. Strange movies, but the most direct hint was for Captain Marvel 2.

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Wanda's Scarlet Witch costume was as the kids would say "fire".

Jimmy, Monica, and Darcy should get their own show.  You've got a new trinity of side characters Marvel, don't let them go to waste.  They all got a badass moment in this episode.

We haven't seen the last of Agatha.  She's gonna be back to help deal with whatever Wanda unleashed.

As always Olsen, Bettany, and Hahn delivered.  And this was Olsen's best work this show.

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And so it ends.

Before I say anything about how I feel about how it all ended, I just want to say that I do still enjoy the story development. It's mostly satisfying in a "everything is tied up nicely" kind of way. The parting between Wanda and Vision is tearful but sweet. It's a very suitable resolution for the series while still leaving enough questions to be explored in future installments like DS2.

So let's go, a list of things I've enjoyed about the episode:

  • Her new costume, I did really like the modernized redesign. It's nice that we finally get a proper Scarlet Witch uniform.
  • Agatha's' line, "Same story, different century." I like that Agatha made it sound like superpowered beings were around since the days of Salem trials. The Marvel universe is this weird hodgepodge of different genres, from medieval fantasy to witchery to vampires to sci-fi space opera, so it's appropriate that there were indeed a bunch of witches back then running around with superpowered magic.
  • The parting between Wanda and Vision is definitely the strongest point of the episode, and it's done proper justice for those who have been following this series for such tragic drama.
  • That post-credits stinger. Done quite effectively in setting up DS2 (unless Strange isn't involved, then I'm mistaken). Shame that there's no Cumberbatch cameo (or Fassbender for that matter), but that's understandable, considering the budget.

I think what sticks with me the most though is definitely production-related aspects like that, like how the finale is set up like any big-franchise genre TV like The X-Files or Buffy the Vampire Slayer. There's the consideration of the "status quo" in serialized TV, something I've written in about in an article last year, and the MCU definitely has its own status quo to adhere to, even if merely to a certain extent. Big game-changers like Infinity War and Endgame would still affect the larger universe, but smaller entries like this are mostly standalone installments that the audience could skip and still watch the next Avengers film with a mere summary of the events that have occurred. So it's no surprise really that much of the ending plays out so safely; Pietro isn't technically Pietro, and Wanda's crisis has been cleaned up without affecting reality too much, etc.

That being said, WandaVision is still a bit more unique in that sense because it does tie into other movies enough that skipping it isn't entirely inconsequential, especially when it comes to DS2. I'm assuming that the events here would somehow lead to that movie, even if it's not the main focus of the film. Plus, I doubt they would go into that much detail in explaining why Wanda is suddenly working with Dr. Strange (or even going against him as an antagonist) when it comes to recapping WandaVision, so again, skipping WandaVision isn't really ideal for this particular scenario.

But again, these details about how significant WandaVision really is in the larger universe could only be confirmed in due time, when 20/20 hindsight/retrospective comes into play. I've got a feeling that Feige and Disney would mostly keep it safe though, just in case DS2 does get released in theaters, and there are movie-goers who aren't interested in subscribing to Disney+ (and therefore, they wouldn't have seen WandaVision).

Putting the production/world-building concerns aside, I guess Disney just isn't really to take a big major step towards mutants yet, huh? Again, no surprise they took a wait-and-see approach for now. The X-Men movies rights are probably still in the process of transition, so it won't be that soon. All that desire to see a Magneto cameo was unfortunately just wishful thinking that could've never happened. Oh well.

Edited by MagnusHex
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I thought the Wanda/ Vision/ kids material was very emotionally affecting.  I definitely welled up as Wanda and Vision said their goodbyes, which I didn’t even do last week, despite finding that story moving.  Well acted, with once again really great dialogue (like about having said goodbye multiple times left room for another hello).

I also found it very satisfying that Wanda prevailed against Agatha and came down on the side of right.  I know that there was lots of speculation/ hope in some corners of the Internet that she go completely mad, or turn into a bad guy, but I was rooting for Wanda to be the hero, and she did the right thing in the episode proper (with real suspense and stakes, given that there were multiple comic-influenced directions she could have gone).  Not sure what the second post credits scene implied about her future.

The actual plot mechanics were a bit of a mixed bag for me.  I was concerned last week that too much had been left for the finale to have it be wrapped up in a completely satisfying way, and I think that did happen to some extent.  Did Wanda wonder what happened to White Vision?  Why didn’t Hex Vision talk to her about it?  I’m not sure that I care about Ralph being a random guy (that was basically stated last week), but I do think it would have been cool if he had come through a crack in the multiverse.  I guess I would just say that things from a plot perspective with Hayward, Jimmy, Monica, Darcy were handwaved in a somewhat simplistic way in the race to the end.  But given that the Wanda storyline resolved so emotionally satisfyingly, it wasn’t a deal breaker for me.  I am confused by Monica just because she doesn’t seem phased at all by having incredible, unexplained powers that she continues to discover in very fraught and charged situations, but I still haven’t seen Captain Marvel so maybe that would tell me more about her character.

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17 minutes ago, Lebanna said:

So that was like a mini-movie! Loved it. Loved that last clip with Wanda living in what looked a little cabin among some happy little trees and some big old mountains, exactly as painted by Bob Ross. While her witch-self eats up knowledge. She’s becoming something new, something stronger. 

So she was split in two then? That's what I thought, but wasn't sure I knew what she was doing or her motive.

31 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

and it's right that the people of Westview would now hate Wanda, though her being able to fly away from the repercussions will likely be controversial.

I suppose, but she really didn't mean for any of it to happen or anyone get hurt, so it is better for her to get answers than just accept some forced criminal penalty. And she did lose her family (once again even if it's a different family), so she's not leaving unpunished.  

Edited by vb68
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So that was a finale intensely focused on WandaVision and everything, as it should be with no huge cameos but a few dangling questions. Although, Skrulls!

You’re ex and your boyfriend at the same party? Did she mean Ultron? Cameo really was White Vision vs Vision. Heh. I’m not even mad, that’s some A plus trolling without lying. Vision dodged the grab your mind stone trick this time! I loved the Theseus Ship philosophical discussion in the library. Even programmed to kill without thinking Vision is able to have a rational discussion about things and realise he's a literal tool in the middle of a fight to the death and peace out.

The townspeople begging Wanda to let them go and that that they feel her grief was powerful, Emma Caulfield revealing at the last moment that she really was just a Sarah with a little girl. It’s really twisted that she felt she had to beg Wanda for her daughter to become friends with Tommy and Billy just so she could see her. Again Wanda seemed completely confused that they had been in pain and terror. I think she just blanked on it in her denial and thought she was creating the perfect American Dream for everyone, especially because she didn't remember creating it in the first place. I’m glad she let them go and told them to run, finally realising that her dream was a nightmare.

Basically Agatha just wanted SW’s power? Half the time she seemed to be taunting Wanda to go bigger and better, half the time she was taunting her that she doesn’t know what she’s unleashing with SW. And she becomes permanently Agnes the nosy neighbour. I would worry that she’s going to find a way to break out of the spell. I definitely wouldn’t mind seeing Katherine Hahn in the role again. I loved that she was standing on a billboard for "Squeaky Clean!" for a long time. 

So Peter/Pietro/Fietro is Ralph and Ralph isn’t Agatha’s husband or anyone else. Hmm, that seemed to wrap up a little neatly. I’m not someone who was "Foxverse or Die, Feige Die!" but it’s a little weird that he didn’t actually seem connected to Agatha beyond a name she picked out as her off screen husband and young man she used to “play” Pietro. I can see more being "revealed later. 

Really heartbreaking that the boys were just put to bed and Wanda thanks them for choosing her as their mother…Like parents from the Titanic and other disasters who know they aren’t getting out of this and want their kids to die as peacefully as possible. Sob.

They looked so great as a little superhero family, and they were literally made for that!

Vision was the mind stone that as part of Wanda, her sadness, hope and love. Um I may or may not have been sobbing uncontrollably at this point. Gah, these two gut me completely. “We’ve said good bye before… so it stands to reason we’ll say hello again!” Kevin Feige you better announce PB is in a dozen Marvel projects, as White Vision who has become Vision! And just listening to Paul list off the number of things he’s been in the MCU – which started 13 years ago as just a random voice over for an AI butler so they weren’t seen as ripping off Alfred to this intense love story, just wow. 

So Wanda says sorry and leaves to go live alone in the wilderness where she’s learning to control her magic and bring the boys back. I can live with that. It probably will cause grumbling but plenty of other Avengers have or currently are walking around with no "lock them up!!" (apart from the Accords) going on after a lot of collateral damage for personal issues caused some chaos. I'm 100% glad she's not mad or bad but they've left a few doors open for interesting directions in DS2. 

In spite of all the chaos and pain she caused Wanda really did all this out of a place of love and despair not for any malicious reason, even though she traumatised a lot of people. Monica really is a strong woman who is full of grace and compassion there though, not sure most people would be able to admit that and still feel just empathy. 

Hayward in Handcuffs is very cathartic to watch. He really just did not give a shit about anything other than his “asset” and was willing to lie about how he even got him and destroy the evidence especially Wanda and didn’t care about any other collateral damage up to and including little kids whether or not he thinks they’re “real”. Speaking of Go Monica!

Darcy was barely there and her role seems to have petered out once she filled Vision in on some things which is a shame, but this finale had no room for extraneous characters. I know Kat Dennings said she’s back so it will be nice to see where she pops up going forward.  

Over all I really enjoyed it and I really loved the sadness and intimacy running though it. Even though it had battles it wasn’t about that, it really came down to Wanda’s acceptance of Vision’s death and the harm she was doing others when she lost herself.

WandaVision have become my favourite couple in the MCU which wasn’t hard. Tony and Pepper were only at no 1 because of their chemistry not their writing particularly and Steve/Peggy are awesome but I have to do a lot of handwaving Endgame.

I’m really looking forward to what’s next of some of these characters and I’m going to be doing a binge of this in the next couple of days to see how it works all absorbed at once.

Edited by Featherhat
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Wanda was our protagonist, but I will make no apologies for being on Agatha’s side.  
 

That’s all I have to say.

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"We have said goodbye before, so it stands to reason..." "...we'll say hello again." Sigh.

I should have realized when they went to the trouble of mentioning the runes in the previouslies that they were going to come into play, but it was still hugely satisfying when they did.

Other than Hayward not getting the crap kicked out of him (or receiving any kind of physical punishment), I was perfectly satisfied on every level. Brilliantly done, show.

Edited by TheOtherOne
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41 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

The "goodbye" scenes were touching, and it's right that the people of Westview would now hate Wanda, though her being able to fly away from the repercussions will likely be controversial.

There was a tiny part of me that kind of wanted to see the townspeople (or at least some of the principals) show compassion to, or otherwise help (a la Spider-Man 2 with Tobey Maguire on the subway), Wanda, given that they shared her nightmares and felt her grief (and so might have pulled together to help her overcome Agatha at the end).  But the way it ended was definitely much more realistic (and probably appropriate).

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It followed The Feige Doctrine ("keep it simple"), so I imagine there's going to be some moaning and groaning. 

I actually liked it, I just see how if people were expecting more, they won't.  I mean even Bettany's tease was just that. He meant himself. 

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"Boys, handle the military.  Mommy will be right back."  OK, give Elizabeth Olsen all the awards now.  Ditto for Kathryn Hahn and Paul Bettany.

I really loved that little bit with Emma Caulfield begging Wanda to let her see her daughter again.  Hell, great acting from all the supporting cast.  They did fear and desperation so well,  along with being so hateful toward Wanda at the end and all without saying anything.

Spoiler

And that battle between Wanda and Agatha maybe even better than all of the fight against Thanos in Endgame.  Yeah, I said it.  Their battle was better than Endgame.  And Wanda becoming the Scarlet Witch fucking rocked!  Loved Agatha's strained smiling face after getting turned into Agnes permanently. 

Darcy took out Hayward.  God, I had forgotten about her and the funnel cake truck.  So awesome!  And Jimmy basically telling Hayward to go screw himself was satisfying.  And Hayward was not Mephisto.  I'm guessing those picture arrangements were just a coincidence. 

We finally found out who Ralph was, too.  Turns out he's not Mephisto.  He's just some poor schmuck Agatha ensnared.  I'm guessing him knocking Monica back with a flick of his finger was just Agatha's magic.

"Boys.  Thanks for choosing me to be your mom."  Oh, my eyes are watering.  It hurt.  It really, really hurt.  Just so beautifully acted.

I'm guessing we'll be seeing Monica in the Secret Invasion show next.  I'm hyped.

And now there are two Wandas - one to be mundane and the other to learn magic.  I was half expecting for Dr. Strange to show up.  When does his next film start shooting because I need more Wanda!

Wonder where Vision 2 will show up.

 

Edited by bmoore4026
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1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

with Wanda having to say goodbye to the kids and Vision (not knowing that White Vision has become Vision, of course)

Her Vision DID know, so I'm wondering what's up with that.  Was there a reason he didn't tell her? 

Just now, bmoore4026 said:

really loved that little bit with Emma Caulfield begging Wanda to let her see her daughter again. 

I guess she's not Arcana Jones, like many assumed. 

10 minutes ago, phalange said:

was really hoping for Hex!Vision and White!Vision to be merged, but maybe there's some hope since he's still out there somewhere.

He is. He's now real Vision, but lacking any memories of Westview, besides what just occurred. 

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57 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

You’re ex and your boyfriend at the same party? Did she mean Ultron? 

No, she meant Resurrected Vision and Hex Vision, the one being the physical being Wanda originally had the relationship with, and the other being the magically created substitute she built this new life with.

I really enjoyed the whole series, I shelled out for Disney+ specially to see it. Will come back with more thoughts later, once it has all sunk in.

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1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

it's right that the people of Westview would now hate Wanda, though her being able to fly away from the repercussions will likely be controversial.

I'm VERY conflicted here. 

I get the argument a lot of people make that she "paid" via losing her family, but... that's not real life and real justice. It's a filter of emotion placed over it. 

I will say that they DID properly justify her leaving. She's too dangerous to simply be locked up. She realized this herself and I think, unspoken, they made it clear this was her motive. Well that and the post credits made it clear she intends to bring the kids back. But she also realized if she didn't learn as much as possible, she'd be what everyone feared. 

I think they're going to have to balance the scales eventually by having her save the multiverse. She's CLEARLY back to being a fugitive, and she's never going to formally be on an Avengers team again until she does something massive to balance this out.  Again, that's not how the real world works, but it can be explained as her receiving a pardon eventually for services rendered. 

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3 minutes ago, Kromm said:

I'm VERY conflicted here. 

I get the argument a lot of people make that she "paid" via losing her family, but... that's not real life and real justice. It's a filter of emotion placed over it. 

I mean, if you're gonna go down that road, then the characters' actions in Civil War are still in question. An entire building of people died too.

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5 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

I mean, if you're gonna go down that road, then the characters' actions in Civil War are still in question. An entire building of people died too.

There's a difference between a true accident and what happened here. Both may share a lack of intent, but in this case she blinded herself to the consequences and let them continue. It took a villain to actually convince her to stop. 

As I've said elsewhere, she's rightfully back to fugitive status. The in-Universe justification for her rejoining the Avengers is going to have to come from whatever she does in Dr. Strange 2, and her getting a pardon. 

1 hour ago, dmeets said:

So Fietro was Ralph but Ralph was... just some actor. Finding it interesting that Agatha (or was it Wanda?) can grant random people superpowers.

The necklace did it. Ergo, it was Agatha. He was controlled and given powers by the same relic. 

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16 minutes ago, Kromm said:

There's a difference between a true accident and what happened here. Both may share a lack of intent, but in this case she blinded herself to the consequences and let them continue. It took a villain to actually convince her to stop. 

As I've said elsewhere, she's rightfully back to fugitive status. The in-Universe justification for her rejoining the Avengers is going to have to come from whatever she does in Dr. Strange 2, and her getting a pardon. 

Probably not. MCU tends to have a way of just shrugging off past crimes.

And it's not just the MCU either. This kind of shrugging off occurs all the time on television and movie series.

Edited by MagnusHex
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1 hour ago, Kromm said:

I'm VERY conflicted here. 

I get the argument a lot of people make that she "paid" via losing her family, but... that's not real life and real justice. It's a filter of emotion placed over it. 

I will say that they DID properly justify her leaving. She's too dangerous to simply be locked up. She realized this herself and I think, unspoken, they made it clear this was her motive. Well that and the post credits made it clear she intends to bring the kids back. But she also realized if she didn't learn as much as possible, she'd be what everyone feared. 

I think they're going to have to balance the scales eventually by having her save the multiverse. She's CLEARLY back to being a fugitive, and she's never going to formally be on an Avengers team again until she does something massive to balance this out.  Again, that's not how the real world works, but it can be explained as her receiving a pardon eventually for services rendered. 

As I've said before if we're talking realistic then half the Avengers would be in prison, even beyond the Sokovia Accords or have their asses sued off for emotional distress. No one in this universe or any other actually faces legal justice. Sarah and Real! Mrs Hart were never going to have their day in court. 

Even Loki was in prison for about a year and it didn't do anything to change his mind or make him less dangerous. After that he continued to betray, mind rape and get people killed for his own benefit, and actual jokes are made about his status on Earth in Thor Ragnarok and it's Strange who is "monitoring" the situation not SWORD or Fury and that is also played for laughs. His new show picks up even before his prison spell in The Dark World. His consequences aren't surrendering himself to "real justice" and neither are Clint's or Bucky's. Tony deliberately provoked and caused chaos in both IM2 and 3 and even though he  clearly didn't mean for it to happen, people died because of him, just as they did because of Bruce etc. And let's not talk about Steve's "lalala it's okay don't think about it, Peggy's still awesome not just a trophy" happy ending. 

She's a fugitive and she's not gotten off scot free with a hug and cookie. If she had surrendered herself to Monica she would just be broken or let out of prison in DS2. She's somewhere where she can't hurt anyone and can't be used by a Hayward (although being manipulated by something else is still on the table for DS2.) Learning to control her powers so she doesn't do this again.

The consequences of her actions will follow her into her next outings, I feel sure of that and that will continue to be more painful than being locked up in The Raft. A mental hospital couldn't help her. I think she will make some sort of amends beyond her sacrifice here but again it's not going to be surrendering herself to WestView police for a trial. 

 

 

Edited by Featherhat
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The thing is that the usual laws don't really work for Superheroes because I am pretty sure there is no law about losing control of your powers and accidentally mind controlling people while deceiving yourself over the situation. There isn't even a law about mind-controlling people, period. How are you suppose to judge things like this without a proper law in place? That was also always the issue with the Sokovia accords, that they lacked a proper legal framework under which powered people could get a any kind of fair process.

Wanda is now where she can't harm anyone even by accident, which is the important thing.

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Really complaining that there are no real world consequences to Wanda in a marvel superhero show? What movies in this series have you guys been watching that NOW it’s an issue? ROFL 

Edited by Keywestclubkid
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4 minutes ago, Keywestclubkid said:

Really complaining that there are no real world consequences to Wanda in a marvel superhero show? What movies in this series have you guys been watching that NOW it’s an issue? ROFL 

It's funny because these kinds of fan complaints dating back to the first Avengers movie and the presence of "collateral damage" probably led to the creation of Civil War addressing said complaints.

I highly doubt they're gonna pull another of that stunt again, but if Wanda's actions do have consequences down the road again, it will perhaps take the form of some persecution against superpowered beings, just in time for the mutant persecution to arrive when the X-Men rights have been finalized.

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14 minutes ago, swanpride said:

The thing is that the usual laws don't really work for Superheroes because I am pretty sure there is no law about losing control of your powers and accidentally mind controlling people while deceiving yourself over the situation. There isn't even a law about mind-controlling people, period. How are you suppose to judge things like this without a proper law in place? That was also always the issue with the Sokovia accords, that they lacked a proper legal framework under which powered people could get a any kind of fair process.

Wanda is now where she can't harm anyone even by accident, which is the important thing.

Assault laws.  Captivity laws.  Probably many others. 

A law doesn't have to cite a specific method used to cover a circumstance.  You don't need a "hitting someone over the head with a rock" law, when murder laws exist, for example. Laws are broadly defined to cover the act, not the method, although more specific laws can then cover specific methods. 

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I need Dr Strange 2 NOW!! Not 2022. I need to get Billy and Tommy back!

More coherent thoughts may occur later after a good night's sleep. But overall I was very happy with the finale.

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23 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

It's funny because these kinds of fan complaints dating back to the first Avengers movie and the presence of "collateral damage" probably led to the creation of Civil War addressing said complaints.

But this wasn't collateral damage in the same sense, and it's a bit over-simplifying and diminishing of viewer's capacity to deal with complex issues to act like it's all the same. Collateral damage ranges from pure accident up to negligence. This is neither. This was a result of unnecessary use of power, not a consequence of either fate or a necessary use of power not being predictable.  

Say you have a mental breakdown. And your way of dealing with extreme stress is going in your backyard and shooting a gun at a target. You're totally unfocused and shoot a neighbor who calls something out over the fence. 

Is this the same as being a law enforcement officer, having your gun drawn in a dangerous circumstance, and shooting an innocent unexpectedly at a crime scene? 

They both deserve some consequences, but are they really the same?  In the later circumstance you had a reason to be shooting a gun. In the first you didn't. 

Edited by Kromm
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Wait at the end why are all the towns people that were fleeing the town when she set them free just standing around again? So they just decided to head back to the center of town and wait for her to walk through? 

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10 minutes ago, Kromm said:

But this wasn't collateral damage in the same sense, and it's a bit over-simplifying and diminishing of viewer's capacity to deal with complex issues to act like it's all the same. Collateral damage ranges from pure accident up to negligence. This is neither. This was a result of unnecessary use of power, not a consequence of either fate or a necessary use of power not being predictable.  

Say you have a mental breakdown. And your way of dealing with extreme stress is going in your backyard and shooting a gun at a target. You're totally unfocused and shoot a neighbor who calls something out over the fence. 

Is this the same as being a law enforcement officer, having your gun drawn in a dangerous circumstance, and shooting an innocent unexpectedly at a crime scene? 

They both deserve some consequences, but are they really the same?  In the later circumstance you had a reason to be shooting a gun. In the first you didn't. 

Again, I highly doubt that the MCU would take into account all the nitty little details you're pointing out. I mean, for example, Odin's history was sordid and bloody. He conquered the nine realms with Hela or some shit, and Thor: Ragnarok did the bare minimum in calling him out.

It's still entertainment and a business. There will be compromises with reality and real life laws.

Edited by MagnusHex
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1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

But whoa, that final bit!  Was that our Wanda peering in at another universe's Wanda, or an evil Wanda?  Guess we'll find out in Dr. Strange 2.

oh WHOOPS! I figured there would be a mid-credits scene so I stopped after that. Didn't realize there was a real post-credits scene till now. Thanks! Anyways, I think that's Wanda's astral self. Also I was very disappointed the brief flash of blue in the cabin was just some weird reflection or something and not nu-Vision's new head jewel thingy.

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

And she becomes permanently Agnes the nosy neighbour. I would worry that she’s going to find a way to break out of the spell.

That could definitely happen. In ep 3, Herb was already struggling to break the spell, and so was Monica and the doctor. But while Agatha may retain her memories, albeit locked away, I think Wanda took her actual magical power and so even a restored Agatha would need years to regain powers of any significance. Unless she finds some shortcuts, I guess.

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

They looked so great as a little superhero family, and they were literally made for that!

They sure did! Looked a lot like the Incredibles, IMO: https://imgur.com/a/fuV27nq (I just whipped that up, please don't share it with people who haven't seen the episode yet.) Billy and Tommy even did stuff like swipe guns and stop bullets, though Violet uses force fields and Billy uses magic. (Also, from a certain point of view, Agatha was brought down by her own monologuing.)

loved how the Vision/The Vision fight ended: Vision talked The Vision out of it. So much more meaningful than if one of them had just blasted the other. It is kind of a dick move that the restored (white version) Vision broke the glass skylight of the library when one of his key powers is phasing through stuff. (BTW, how does nu-Vision have forehead blasts without the Mind Stone?)

The goodbye Wanda had with her created family was very sad.

Fan theory checklist:

  • Jimmy's witness protection person was a Macguffin.
  • Dottie was just a regular citizen. (BTW her begging for her child to get a role on Wanda's show was moving and also shows that everyone in Westview realizes being in Wanda's reality is literally a TV show.)
  • Fietro was just coincidentally cast as Evan Peters, not a multiverse anything, and his powers were granted by Agatha.
  • There was no Dormammu/Mephisto/etc 'big bad' behind Agatha.
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2 minutes ago, arc said:

oh WHOOPS! I figured there would be a mid-credits scene so I stopped after that. Didn't realize there was a real post-credits scene till now. Thanks! Anyways, I think that's Wanda's astral self. Also I was very disappointed the brief flash of blue in the cabin was just some weird reflection or something and not nu-Vision's new head jewel thingy.

That could definitely happen. In ep 3, Herb was already struggling to break the spell, and so was Monica and the doctor. But while Agatha may retain her memories, albeit locked away, I think Wanda took her actual magical power and so even a restored Agatha would need years to regain powers of any significance. Unless she finds some shortcuts, I guess.

They sure did! Looked a lot like the Incredibles, IMO: https://imgur.com/a/fuV27nq (I just whipped that up, please don't share it with people who haven't seen the episode yet.) Billy and Tommy even did stuff like swipe guns and stop bullets, though Violet uses force fields and Billy uses magic. (Also, from a certain point of view, Agatha was brought down by her own monologuing.)

loved how the Vision/The Vision fight ended: Vision talked The Vision out of it. So much more meaningful than if one of them had just blasted the other. It is kind of a dick move that the restored (white version) Vision broke the glass skylight of the library when one of his key powers is phasing through stuff. (BTW, how does nu-Vision have forehead blasts without the Mind Stone?)

The goodbye Wanda had with her created family was very sad.

Fan theory checklist:

  • Jimmy's witness protection person was a Macguffin.
  • Dottie was just a regular citizen. (BTW her begging for her child to get a role on Wanda's show was moving and also shows that everyone in Westview realizes being in Wanda's reality is literally a TV show.)
  • Fietro was just coincidentally cast as Evan Peters, not a multiverse anything, and his powers were granted by Agatha.
  • There was no Dormammu/Mephisto/etc 'big bad' behind Agatha.

The Jimmy witness one is the only one I'm upset about. The other ones could easily be argued as being all in our minds/expectations. The Witness was the one THEY laid out for us. 

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Honestly, I never thought the witness was anything more than the plot device used to draw outside attention to the plight of Westview, so it didn't surprise me in the least that it wasn't addressed in the end.

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10 minutes ago, Kromm said:

The Jimmy witness one is the only one I'm upset about. The other ones could easily be argued as being all in our minds/expectations. The Witness was the one THEY laid out for us. 

I'm not that upset. TBH the Evan Peters casting was a bigger troll. The writers needed some way to bring Jimmy Woo in. If anything it's more of a reach that (1) Jimmy specifically needed SWORD surveillance and (2) Hayward sent Monica there. (As to the latter, I guess we can fanwank that he was keeping track of Wanda at all times and so assumed that any Westview related stuff happening after she left SWORD HQ might be related to Wanda.

Paul Bettany and Elizabeth Olsen were consistently great in this whole series. A delight as the sitcom couple and so much chemistry as star-crossed lovers.

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Quote

 

Say you have a mental breakdown. And your way of dealing with extreme stress is going in your backyard and shooting a gun at a target. You're totally unfocused and shoot a neighbor who calls something out over the fence. 

Is this the same as being a law enforcement officer, having your gun drawn in a dangerous circumstance, and shooting an innocent unexpectedly at a crime scene? 

They both deserve some consequences, but are they really the same?  In the later circumstance you had a reason to be shooting a gun. In the first you didn't. 

 

The way you worded this I suspect you would expect the punishment be worse in the first case, but at least under German law, there would actually be worse consequences in the second one.

First case: No intention to kill everyone, you basically killed someone due to your negligence. The fact that you have somehow a shooting range in your garden and decided to shoot there would be the main concern in the case. The punishment can be up to 5 years, but it might simply be a money payment, depending on the judge (who will decide based on how rueful you are and the circumstances in general)

 

Second case: You are a police officer, hence you are trained for situation. What the hell are you doing setting a KILL SHOT at anyone at the crime scene????? That said person is also innocent will make it much harder to claim any sort of self-defence, but the point is more that you can't just shot someone nilly willy. You would have to proof that you acted in self-defence and that the kill-shot was the only option you had, which is already difficult to do if the person you shot is actually guilty.  

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Hell yeah to the Scarlet Witch outfit!!!! A++++!

I could be really bitter that Wanda did the right thing and restored Westview at the price of giving up her family while Steve Rogers got to alter a timeline and hijack someone else’s life to his liking with zero consequences**, but with Night King Vision having his data restored and with the reveal that Wanda and Vision are still connected through the part of the Mind Stone that lives inside her...there’s still hope, right? And the kids are still there somewhere.

Anyway, a good series finale. Hayward and Agnes/Agatha both got their comeuppance and Monica has gone off with the Skrulls. Can’t wait for the Captain Marvel and Doctor Strange sequels!

Great show! Now bring on Falcon and Winter Soldier!!!!

**And Steve did it ON PURPOSE while Wanda didn’t!

Edited by Spartan Girl
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Hayward/SWORD's whole role was extremely perfunctory (somehow they were planning to defeat a bunch of magic users by driving up and shooting them with regular guns), but the rest was solid.

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I do wonder if there are more eventual consequences to Wanda relying on The Darkhold as her source of knowledge. It can't be accurately conveyed here in any brief form what a bad bad bad idea that is. It's pure black magic. 

It's also unclear what other kinds of magic Wanda COULD do other than what we saw her do without spells.  The only new abilities we saw expressed in this finale were copies of things she saw Agatha do (teleportation, power draining, etc) with that astral projection at the very end being the one exception. 

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40 minutes ago, Keywestclubkid said:

Wait at the end why are all the towns people that were fleeing the town when she set them free just standing around again? So they just decided to head back to the center of town and wait for her to walk through? 

I was more surprised that they were all fleeing the town when a bunch of them besides Sarah probably had kids locked in their bedrooms.  Were they really going to abandon them?  That whole thing, including their return, wasn't really thought out.

I have to wonder if Wanda was actually able to make sure that the townspeople's basic needs, including nutrition, were all met, or if their physical health would be affected. The "delivery man" said how tired he was, for example.  I guess that's why Jimmy was setting up medical stations in the pharmacy.  I hope the mostly comatose kids weren't aware of anything other than Halloween, and that only the adults were traumatized.

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I have mixed feelings about the finale. On the one hand, I am kind of glad that the only manipulation which happened was done by Agatha basically with the goal to throw Wanda off enough that she would give her her powers.

On the other hand, it doesn't really feel like all questions have been answered...what was the deal with the "Think of the children" chant? Why the hexagons? What was the deal with Wu's person in witness protection? I admit I feel kind of cheated in this regard.  I also think that the finale somehow lacked the big surprise, the final punchline.

Anyway, I guess that towards the end was the Tie-in to Captain Marvel 2 für Monica, and the Tie-in to Doctor Strange II for Wanda.

Second that it was weird that Darcy was just gone in the end. Honestly, everything there felt really rushed.

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I mean they kinda spoon feed you whats gonna happen with Agatha... she stripped her of her powers and mind wiped her to be the neighbor ... so in case she needs her later on she can come back and get her for help..

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9 minutes ago, swanpride said:

On the other hand, it doesn't really feel like all questions have been answered...what was the deal with the "Think of the children" chant? Why the hexagons? What was the deal with Wu's person in witness protection? I admit I feel kind of cheated in this regard.  I also think that the finale somehow lacked the big surprise, the final punchline.

I suspect all that 'for the children' stuff was Wanda's subconscious expressing her desire for a family through the people around her. The hexagons probably had no significance beyond allowing the play on words with the Hex! And as I've said a couple of times, the witness protection guy was never more than a plot device to draw outside attention to Westview's plight - not relevant to the actual story plot in the slightest,  he was just another person trapped in the Hex who was released at the end to get on with his life. Ditto the bee keeper/SWORD agent, relevant only as evidence that anything entering the Hex would be transformed, whether above or below ground, supporting Monica's theory that they weren't going to be able to end this by force, they needed to reach Wanda somehow.

I'm more bothered, personally, that Monica didn't get to play a bigger part in the resolution of it all, after having been built up so strongly as the person who believed Wanda could be talked down and having gone to such great lengths to try to reach her. That part of the plot was a bit of an anti-climax - ditto Darcy just disappearing at the end without a proper wrap-up to her part of the story.

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My only real "I wish it had gone somewhere" niggle would be the "think of the children" creepy chant, which really did seem to be put there to encourage Wanda to say it with Vision and get pregnant. That seemed entirely pointed even beyond the usual "raise money for the school" sitcom trope. I guess it shows that even when the Vision of her perfect life was at it's strongest with her getting pregnant, it couldn't help but come out wrong because the situation was wrong. 

At one point I was very on the train that everyone would be connected or explained like Woo's guy, the delivery guy, Dottie, a bigger reveal for Ralph, Strange, Mephisto etc but especially after ep 8 where it didn't go bigger on the "Usual MCU" stuff but instead treated us to a visual look at Wanda's psyche I knew a lot of it was just red herring or Mcguffin to get people to the right place. Woo's guy was just to explain why a random FBI guy from SF would be in suburban NJ. TP was the one who really fanned a lot of expectations over "her guy" but she was probably excited for people to see her get powers that ep. 

ETA: I wonder if Covid played a part in Darcy not saying an onscreen goodbye? Like KD couldn't get down there for a final scene or was booked somewhere else. 

I would have liked to see more Monica but they did give her the one on one with Wanda at the end. She was the only one apart from Vision and Agatha to get one. 

Edited by Featherhat
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This episode/story ended as I expected it would. The most surprising thing was how long the Wanda/Agatha fight took before Wanda finally put her back in Westview as Agnes.

Vision saying goodbye to Wanda was very sweet (as was their entire conversation).

So long, Boner! Sorry, I mean Ralph.

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23 minutes ago, swanpride said:

 

On the other hand, it doesn't really feel like all questions have been answered...what was the deal with the "Think of the children" chant? Why the hexagons? What was the deal with Wu's person in witness protection? I admit I feel kind of cheated in this regard.  I also think that the finale somehow lacked the big surprise, the final punchline.

 

Think of the children was explained the kids were "locked away" or asleep and the parents wernt seeing them .. that was the whole line of make my kid friends with yours or a bully so i can see and hold her ....

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So White Vision got his memory back and just got the hell out of dodge?  Maybe he was too overwhelmed (I suppose that's what happens when you binge watch Age of Ultron, Civil War, and Infinity War all in a row) but still.  On the plus side, at least he didn't just phase his fist through Wanda's head when he had the chance.

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2 hours ago, Kromm said:

There's a difference between a true accident and what happened here. Both may share a lack of intent, but in this case she blinded herself to the consequences and let them continue. It took a villain to actually convince her to stop.

Except what Wanda said to Agatha was the truth too: when she mind-jacked her back to being tied to that stake and all the drained witches (even her own mother) were lying on the ground, Wanda said, "See, that's the difference between you and me. You did this on purpose." We can debate until the end of time about Wanda continuing to allow Westview as she recreated it to exist, but I really don't think she knew people were suffering. Unless you want everyone to have consequences, particularly characters like Barnes since none of the Winter Soldier's victims are less dead just because Bucky didn't mean to kill anyone, there will always be some handwaving of punishment.

I did cry a little at Wanda and Vision having to say goodbye. Again. I didn't mean to get this invested in them, but there's hope that she can find him again. I want that for her, for them, that happiness, and I have no sorries to give about it. Can't she just be happy without hurting anyone? Please?

More later once I've unpacked everything. This deserves some kind of awards attention, especially Elizabeth Olsen who has been like a damn comet throughout this show.

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