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ElectricBoogaloo

Allen v. Farrow

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7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Probably the logic was that a good offense makes the best defense. The main thing was to discredit Mia as an unfit mother and wildly jealous person. He could always hire nannies to take care of the kids.

 

I agree with this.  I also think that is why he married Soon Yi.  If he married her he thinks it looks like they had a love affair. If  he dumps her he thinks it looks like he used her.  Woody strikes me as someone who is very calculating.  

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Then Mia sent her to a job at a camp where she might have spent some time on her own and focused on herself, but Woody was happy to talk to her on the phone for hours until she was fired and then collected her

I am unsure of the timeline with this.  Was this during the time Woody was telling Mia he made a mistake?  I personally think he wanted to keep Soon Yi as his side piece and have Mia as his appropriate public girlfriend.  Mia finding out put a crimp in those plans but I do think Woody thought he could still get away with it.  Calm Mia down and continue to secretly see Soon Yi.  Woody wasn't someone who was used to being told no you can't do something.  

4 hours ago, aghst said:

So does that mean she is aware of having been abused but won't say anything now?

For Soon Yi to acknowledge what happened with  Woody was anything but love would mean acknowledging her whole adult life has been built on a lie.  Listening to the audio of him saying he just happened to find himself enjoying her company and them finally kissing sounded like a script he had written.  Of course he neglects to mention  she is the daughter of his long term girlfriend.

For me the age difference wasn't the gross part. It was the fact she was his girlfriend's daughter.  A daughter he had watched grow up. A daughter who was a sibling to his own children.  Was it Woody who said during this whole thing "The heart wants what the heart wants"?

7 hours ago, Glade said:

Odd that the media propaganda was all about smearing Mia Farrow when the crucial testimony, in addition to Dylan, came from independent sources—Allen's housekeeper and doorman, babysitters and nanny's, etc.

Throughout history rich men are given the benefit the doubt even with a lot of evidence against them.  But women are disbelieved even with evidence to prove their claims.

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4 hours ago, aghst said:

So does that mean she is aware of having been abused but won't say anything now?

It very well could be that he controls all the money and would be at his mercy even after his passing because he could kick her out of his will.

Otherwise, maybe after he passed, she would tell the story.

But if she decided to tell the story now, wouldn't she be able to get a huge book and movie deal?

The fact that she hasn't said she was abused or that she hasn't left him leaves some possibilities:

1.  Abuse didn't happen.

2.  She doesn't believe the abuse happened.

3.  She's completely reliant on him, not just financially but emotionally.  She can't leave her abuser.

 

I haven't watched the series, not sure I will.  But I can't see how it helps her in any way.  It makes money for the filmmakers and HBO but it just cements the perception of her as a victim, still to this day.

Unlikely she's going to turn on Allen and accuse him now or ever.  But she may have to deal with being seen as victim and captive, unless Allen has her locked up in their home, not allowed to go out for any reason.

I don't see Soon-Yi turning on Woody.  She has built a life with him, and by all accounts it is the life she wanted.  Woody gave her a long enough leash that she was able to lead a life where she got multiple degrees and adopted two daughters.  She won't be able to see that Woody guided her and groomed her.  I strongly suspect that through it all her friends were all Woody-approved.  He made sure she had no one to point out the grossness of their life together.  And now it's been almost 30 years, she is now invested in this life.  

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20 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

Was it Woody who said during this whole thing "The heart wants what the heart wants"?

Yes, it was, and I've always called bullshit on that sentiment.

We're all human. We've all found ourselves attracted to someone we shouldn't be. But at some point, common sense has to take over and make us realize that we need to nip it in the bud instead of actively pursuing it because it's likely to be an absolute disaster otherwise--one/both of you is married/in a relationship, there's a huge age difference, one is in a position of authority (teacher, boss), incompatible orientation, etc.

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I'm starting to think Allen thought Farrow was an easy mark. She was talented but not THAT talented. She had a bunch of kids in varying degrees of neglect. She didn't have much of a career besides being in his movies. 

I'm not defending Mia at all -- I think she was probably a shit mother. But very often children of shit mothers are easier targets. 

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The part that got me was when Mia met with Woody's therapist and showed him the photos of Soon-Yi and was like "This is the issue" and he was like "A therapist doesn't moralize" which . . . to a certain extent I agree with. But I also think a therapist can figure out the best way to move forward. And then for Mia to say that he was essentially oogling the photos and she grabbed them back because it made her uncomfortable. Yikes. 

All of last night was a yikes. I've never seen Manhattan but good god it squicked me out just watching the clips and seeing a teenaged Murial begging Woody's character for sex. So gross. 

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4 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

The part that got me was when Mia met with Woody's therapist and showed him the photos of Soon-Yi and was like "This is the issue" and he was like "A therapist doesn't moralize" which . . . to a certain extent I agree with. But I also think a therapist can figure out the best way to move forward. And then for Mia to say that he was essentially oogling the photos and she grabbed them back because it made her uncomfortable. Yikes. 

All of last night was a yikes. I've never seen Manhattan but good god it squicked me out just watching the clips and seeing a teenaged Murial begging Woody's character for sex. So gross. 

Its also icky how after he got all that acclaim for the non-creepy Annie Hall he immediately moves into creepy territory with Manhattan. 

I'll also say that the Woody tapes show a very different personality from the neurotic hypochrondriac he played in the movies. They always say comedians aren't funny in real life and this was an example. 

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1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

I'm starting to think Allen thought Farrow was an easy mark. She was talented but not THAT talented. She had a bunch of kids in varying degrees of neglect. She didn't have much of a career besides being in his movies. 

I'm not defending Mia at all -- I think she was probably a shit mother. But very often children of shit mothers are easier targets. 

There's a reason Mia Farrow has been in very few movies since their breakup. As I mentioned a few pages upthread, this was not a Clint Eastwood/Sondra Locke situation where a jilted Hollywood megastar gets back at his ex by blocking her participation in any films: By the early 1990s, Allen had settled into a comfortable role as a respected writer/director/actor who definitely had a devoted fanbase, but he had nowhere near Eastwood's level of clout. Farrow's absence (save the occasional bit part) from films since the early 90s is much less about Allen's influence than her own limitations as an actress.*

Neglected children (and there's no way one person can raise that many kids without neglecting a few) are often easier targets: they'll literally do anything for some love and affection and attention, and predators know this.

*(For those who don't remember: Sondra Locke was Eastwood's romantic partner in the 1970s and early 80s. They made six movies together in eight years. They acrimoniously broke up when Locke, whose numerous abortions at Eastwood's request had left her unable to bear children, discovered that Eastwood had had at least two children with separate mistresses during their relationship. She sued him for palimony and reached a settlement where Eastwood, then at his professional height, agreed to finance several of her film ideas. However, none of those films were ever made because a vindictive Clint would call up studio heads and ask them, as a personal favor, to cancel the projects. When Locke found out, she sued him again for fraud and won, receiving enough $$$ that she never had to work again.)

 

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I don't see Soon-Yi turning on Woody.  She has built a life with him, and by all accounts it is the life she wanted.  Woody gave her a long enough leash that she was able to lead a life where she got multiple degrees and adopted two daughters.  She won't be able to see that Woody guided her and groomed her.  I strongly suspect that through it all her friends were all Woody-approved.  He made sure she had no one to point out the grossness of their life together.  And now it's been almost 30 years, she is now invested in this life.  

Soon-Yi is obviously comfortable with what happened and has no desire to upend her life and return to a mother she despises (remember that we're getting the sanitized retelling of her and Mia's confrontation -- supposedly, Mia violently confronted Soon-Yi with the pictures and Soon-Yi responded by waving them in Mia's face and saying that she (Soon-Yi) was the one Woody really loved). I find the evidence presented that Soon-Yi and Woody's relationship began much earlier to be compelling, but nothing will happen as long as both Woody and Soon-Yi deny it.

 

8 hours ago, aghst said:

2.  She doesn't believe the abuse happened.

Several years ago, I watched a psychiatrist interview Gene Simmons. When Simmons recounted how, as a teenager, he'd stuck his notoriously long tongue out at a female teacher who then took him home and took his virginity, the psychiatrist told Simmons "You were sexually assaulted by that teacher." Simmons responded that he didn't feel he'd been assaulted and the psychiatrist's response was basically "You may not feel that way NOW, but you were definitely taken advantage of.". Soon-Yi, who'd probably had no romantic relationships with her peers, simply may not know any better.

 

11 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

Something that wasn't shown in this episode (which surprised me) were the recollections of Mariel Hemingway, who played his teenaged paramour in Manhattan. She has stated in interviews that once Manhattan wrapped, Woody pursued her avidly, and wanted to take her on a trip to Paris. Although interested in travel, Hemingway was extremely wary, and rightly assumed that she would be expected to share a room with him if she went. When she questioned him on the room arrangements, Woody avoided answering. Mariel told her parents hoping they would back her up and refuse to allow her to go. To her horror, they rather than putting their feet down, they were mildly encouraging of the trip. She wound up saying no in the end.

Even though I should know better, I'm continually astounded at what stage parents will do on the chance that their children might become famous.

Edited by Sir RaiderDuck OMS
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11 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

 

All of last night was a yikes. I've never seen Manhattan but good god it squicked me out just watching the clips and seeing a teenaged Murial begging Woody's character for sex. So gross. 

I'm wary of using a 1979 movie to provide insight for real life events in 1991/92.  I understand the desire to want to make the connection, but I think a lot of it is reaching and goes a little overboard in trying to suggest the events from the 90s were somehow pre-ordained.    

19 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

The part that got me was when Mia met with Woody's therapist and showed him the photos of Soon-Yi and was like "This is the issue" and he was like "A therapist doesn't moralize" which . . . to a certain extent I agree with. But I also think a therapist can figure out the best way to move forward.

I think a therapist's job is to help the person decide the best way forward on their own, rather than directly telling a patient what to do.  My impression has always been the therapist is going to ask questions or make suggestions in response to what they are being told, but they aren't going to say: "This is what you should do in this instance."      

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15 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Its also icky how after he got all that acclaim for the non-creepy Annie Hall he immediately moves into creepy territory with Manhattan. 

I'll also say that the Woody tapes show a very different personality from the neurotic hypochrondriac he played in the movies. They always say comedians aren't funny in real life and this was an example. 

Even in Annie Hall there’s evidence of his creepy tendencies.   I happened to catch a  scene in passing recently. THere’s a throwaway line that would more than raise eyebrows today. Tony Roberts has to bail out Woody in LA when Woody gets arrested for bad driving. He berates Woody for interrupting his tryst with two sixteen year olds. “Twins, Max, twins.”

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5 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm wary of using a 1979 movie to provide insight for real life events in 1991/92.  I understand the desire to want to make the connection, but I think a lot of it is reaching and goes a little overboard in trying to suggest the events from the 90s were somehow pre-ordained.      

The filmmakers are using clips from Manhattan and other films to suggest Woody has always glamorized the idea of a man entering into a relationship with a considerably younger woman. I didn't realize until they mentioned it last night, but even Crimes and Misdemeanors (which I saw for the first time in an outdoor theater in Tucson a few years ago) falls into this trope: Martin Landau's mistress is played by Anjelica Houston, who was over twenty years younger than him. While I don't think Manhattan can properly be accused of predicting his relationship with Soon-Yi, it does show his acceptance  and promotion of May/December romances.

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6 minutes ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

The filmmakers are using clips from Manhattan and other films to suggest Woody has always glamorized the idea of a man entering into a relationship with a considerably younger woman.

Don't they say successful writers write about what they know?

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3 minutes ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

While I don't think Manhattan can properly be accused of predicting his relationship with Soon-Yi, it does show his acceptance  and promotion of May/December romances.

That could be true, but many movies, long before Woody Allen ever became a filmmaker, had May/December romances.  Gene Kelly is 40 in Signin' in the Rain.  His love interest, Debbie Reynolds, is 19.  In The Prince and the Showgirl, Laurence Olivier is 50.  His love interest, Marilyn Monroe, is 31.  In The Misfits, Clark Gable is 59, and his love interest, Marilyn Monroe, is 34.  In The Country Girl, Bing Crosby, 51, is married to Grace Kelly, 25.   

 

17 minutes ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

I didn't realize until they mentioned it last night, but even Crimes and Misdemeanors (which I saw for the first time in an outdoor theater in Tucson a few years ago) falls into this trope: Martin Landau's mistress is played by Anjelica Houston, who was over twenty years younger than him.

I wouldn't say Crimes and Misdemeanors promotes May/December romances, if only because Landau and Huston's relationship in the movie is pretty toxic.   

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58 minutes ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

Even though I should know better, I'm continually astounded at what stage parents will do on the chance that their children might become famous.

It;s really gross.

Also -- can't help but notice. Mia's most visible defenders in the movie are her white children. Her children of different races are more in the background. 

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Even though in this episode Christina said that Woody didn't know how old she was, keep in mind that in an earlier interview (see below for link in previous post) she also stated that he knew she was in high school and living at home when they met, so it's not like he thought she was 25. He also called her at home aka her parents' home and her 11 year old brother would yell that Woody was on the phone for her. In this week's episode she also said she was sticking to the story that they started a relationship when she was 17, but in the same previous interview she said they started sleeping together a few months before her 17th birthday.

On 2/25/2021 at 6:42 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

From 2018: Hollywood Reporter interview with Babi Christina Engelhardt, the 16 year old high school student who began sleeping with Woody Allen when he was 41 years old

Apparently this was the inspiration for his movie Manhattan where his character is a 42 year old man who sleeps with a 17 year old girl. Stacey Nulkin, another 17 year high school student he dated when he was 42 (he cast her in Annie Hall when she was 16) said the character in Manhattan is also based on her. When Christina's interview came out, Woody declined to comment but apparently in his book he mentioned that he "jumped into the percales" with Stacey.

In 2015, Mariel Hemingway discussed Woody Allen pursuing her (this was after she starred as his teenage girlfriend in Manhattan at the age of 17). When this anecdote occurred, he was 44:

Quote

Once she turned 18, Allen flew out to her parents’ home in Idaho and repeatedly asked her to go to Paris with him. Hemingway told her parents “that I didn’t know what the [sleeping] arrangement was going to be, that I wasn’t sure if I was even going to have my own room. Woody hadn’t said that. He hadn’t even hinted it. But I wanted them to put their foot down. They didn’t.” In fact, though Allen was in his mid-forties at the time, “They kept lightly encouraging me.” (Allen left Idaho via private jet the next morning after Hemingway informed him if she wasn’t getting her own room, she couldn’t go with him.)

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Also -- can't help but notice. Mia's most visible defenders in the movie are her white children. Her children of different races are more in the background. 

I think that might be due partly to their ages as well as who is still alive.

  • The Previn twins Matthew and Sascha (born 1970) are the oldest. They were 10 when Mia started seeing Woody in 1980. They were 22 when Dylan's abuse occurred but I'm guessing that they were off at college.
  • Next in age is Lark (born and adopted 1973), but she died in 2008.
  • Fletcher Previn (born 1974) was 6 when Mia and Woody started dating and 18 when all the Dylan and Soon-Yi shit hit the fan. He was interviewed on camera.
  • Daisy (born 1974, adopted 1976) is the same age as Fletcher. She was interviewed in this episode (audio only).
  • Moses (born 1978, adopted 1980) was only 2 when Mia started dating Woody and 14 when the abuse allegations came out.
  • Tam (born 1979, adopted 1992) was adopted the year that all of this was happening. He died in 2000.
  • Next in age was Dylan (born and adopted in 1985).
  • Ronan is the next in age (born in 1987).

All of the kids after Ronan were adopted after the abuse happened so they wouldn't really be able to shed any light on Dylan's accusations or what happened with Soon-Yi:

  • Thaddeus (born 1988, adopted 1994) died in 2016.
  • Frankie-Minh (born 1989, adopted 1995)
  • Isaiah (born and adopted 1992)
  • Quincy (born and adopted 1994)

 

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6 minutes ago, vibeology said:

Allen wrote, directed and starred in most of his films so he got to kiss or touch those different young women along with normalizing that sort of relationship to his wider audience. It's fucked up.

I agree.  While people were declaring Woody a genius he was putting his own twisted wet dreams up on screen.  The scenes of him with a baby faced Hemingway in Manhattan were nauseating.

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1 hour ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

When Simmons recounted how, as a teenager, he'd stuck his notoriously long tongue out at a female teacher who then took him home and took his virginity, the psychiatrist told Simmons "You were sexually assaulted by that teacher." Simmons responded that he didn't feel he'd been assaulted and the psychiatrist's response was basically "You may not feel that way NOW, but you were definitely taken advantage of.". Soon-Yi, who'd probably had no romantic relationships with her peers, simply may not know any better.

I've often pointed out that this is the danger of sexually abusing an older child (in the mid--late teens range). Because the kid is going through or has completed puberty, is experiencing sexual feelings (and may very well already be sexually active), it's often very easy for the predator to convince them that this is a mutual relationship and/or make them feel like they're complicit in it. It doesn't surprise me at all that people who were in this situation will still deny that it was abuse 20-something years later, even if they declare that they'd go ballistic if they found out that their own kid was in a similar situation.

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That was so disturbing and I didn’t even watch Dylan’s video. I couldn’t bear it.

I’ve never so much as seen a clip from any of Woody’s movies so it was enlightening to see those. Outside of the fact that they are super creepy, they seem terrible to me. I feel a lot of comfort knowing I never had any desire to watch them lol. Also, why is he always coughing or sneezing?

I am absolutely flabbergasted that to this day Woody maintains his ‘Mia made it all up because she’s a jealous bitch’ defense. So he really thinks people will believe that Mia somehow coerced or manipulated multiple people to make all these statements about inappropriate behavior with Dylan and rendezvouses with an underaged Soon-Yi?

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2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm wary of using a 1979 movie to provide insight for real life events in 1991/92.  I understand the desire to want to make the connection, but I think a lot of it is reaching and goes a little overboard in trying to suggest the events from the 90s were somehow pre-ordained.    

No one said it was pre-ordained. Woody has been making it clear that he is a man who pursues woman who are 16-18 years old. It’s not just one movie. It is multiple movies and with multiple girls who he was involved with or pursued just before or right at the age of consent. 

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5 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Also, why is he always coughing or sneezing?

The stock Woody Allen character is a nebbish loser. Making him somewhat sickly reinforces that and makes him more relatable. BTW: If you're interested in watching a Woody Allen film after seeing this, Crimes and Misdemeanors wouldn't be a bad place to start. Martin Landau is awesome as usual, Alan Alda wonderfully plays a conceited ass (supposedly based on M*A*S*H writer Larry Gelbart), and future Law and Order castmates Jerry Orbach and Sam Waterston put in appearances as well.

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10 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I’ve never so much as seen a clip from any of Woody’s movies so it was enlightening to see those. Outside of the fact that they are super creepy, they seem terrible to me. I feel a lot of comfort knowing I never had any desire to watch them lol. Also, why is he always coughing or sneezing?

Well, I knew this would be said eventually. It's really a shame that the artistry in the movies cannot be appreciated. Manhattan is still listed as one of the greatest movies of the 20th century, and Annie Hall is classic. The characters that Woody Allen played in those films were not evil, but somewhat nebbish, self-deprecating men. 

“There's an old joke - um... two elderly women are at a Catskill mountain resort, and one of 'em says, "Boy, the food at this place is really terrible." The other one says, "Yeah, I know; and such small portions." Well, that's essentially how I feel about life - full of loneliness, and misery, and suffering, and unhappiness, and it's all over much too quickly.”

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His films are just not for me. At all. And I’m grateful for that since it means I don’t have to grapple with loving the films of such a disgusting man.

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13 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Another shocking fact: between 1992 and 1995 Mia adopted five more children. Two of those children are now dead. I am shocked that amid all this dysfunction Mia thought it was a good idea to adopt MORE children. 

 

It seems like she might have been using adoption to deal with her emotions about all of this...which really isn't healthy. For her all the kids.

11 hours ago, Dani said:

That’s been one of the more interesting aspects for me. I was too young to really follow any of this at the time or watch his films. The perception I had over the years was that it was all about Mia’s claims. A classic he said, she said. So seeing that it was other people who made the first accusations was surprising. You really see how the facts have been distorted to put the focus solely on Mia. 

It’s also disturbing to me that so much focus is on what he did or didn’t do on that one particular day when there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that his relationship with Dylan was inappropriate. 

He also said the Allen’s behavior towards Dylan was "grossly inappropriate and that measures must be taken to protect her". It is a really weird legal line where behavior tips over into illegal territory. A relationship can be (and usually is) abusive before the first assault. It’s just that it is the type of abuse the criminal justice system is not equipped to handle.  Ideally others will recognize the signs of abuse before that line is crossed but that means it’s never actually illegal. 

 

10 hours ago, aghst said:

I haven't watched the series, not sure I will.  But I can't see how it helps her in any way.  It makes money for the filmmakers and HBO but it just cements the perception of her as a victim, still to this day.

Unlikely she's going to turn on Allen and accuse him now or ever.  But she may have to deal with being seen as victim and captive, unless Allen has her locked up in their home, not allowed to go out for any reason.

I don't think she'd ever turn on him either. It seems like their relationship works perfectly well for her as well as him. She seems to be really contemptuous of the idea that she was abused, so she obviously sees herself as a smart woman who was mature for her age and could give Woody what her mother couldn't. And I doubt anything at all would make her adjust that view of herself, whether she had doubts about it or not.

5 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

I agree with this.  I also think that is why he married Soon Yi.  If he married her he thinks it looks like they had a love affair. If  he dumps her he thinks it looks like he used her.  Woody strikes me as someone who is very calculating.  

There's so many good reasons for him to have married her and stay with her it always seems silly to me when people act like the fact that he didn't dump her when she was 35 (and he was, what, 75?) is a sign that the whole thing was just true love. Like he was doing something admirable there. LOL.

5 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

I am unsure of the timeline with this.  Was this during the time Woody was telling Mia he made a mistake?  I personally think he wanted to keep Soon Yi as his side piece and have Mia as his appropriate public girlfriend.  Mia finding out put a crimp in those plans but I do think Woody thought he could still get away with it.  Calm Mia down and continue to secretly see Soon Yi.  Woody wasn't someone who was used to being told no you can't do something.  

Based on last night it seems like the camp thing happened during the time when Woody was still claiming he made a mistake and it wouldn't happen again, still hoping to get away with it. In his telling Soon-Yi just hated camp so dad sent his limo to pick her up. Was she really staying with friends, do you think, like he said? I doubt it. Or if she was he was in on that.

5 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

Throughout history rich men are given the benefit the doubt even with a lot of evidence against them.  But women are disbelieved even with evidence to prove their claims.

I keep going back to that review where someone said, regarding the audio book excerpts, that "nobody defends Woody Allen worse than Woody Allen." Because for years whatever Mia and Dylan say has come with the caveat that we have to remember they're both exceptionally good at lying because Mia's an actress and Dylan is brainwashed. So if they seem sincere, you can't trust that. Meanwhile, Woody gets the excuse that he's just really bad at explaining himself so if he sounds like a creep with no morals, it's just because as a highly-successful writer/director/actor, he's too awkward to explain himself well, so we should assume there's a better version that isn't coming through.

5 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I don't see Soon-Yi turning on Woody.  She has built a life with him, and by all accounts it is the life she wanted.  Woody gave her a long enough leash that she was able to lead a life where she got multiple degrees and adopted two daughters.  She won't be able to see that Woody guided her and groomed her.  I strongly suspect that through it all her friends were all Woody-approved.  He made sure she had no one to point out the grossness of their life together.  And now it's been almost 30 years, she is now invested in this life.  

Yup. And I can't help but think of Annie Hall (which is yes, a movie, but it's not like there's no connection to Woody's real life in it) where he likes educating the women he's with. I'm sure he approved of all those multiple degrees. He's super educated and cultured and loves conversations with an adolescents who don't share those interests.

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm wary of using a 1979 movie to provide insight for real life events in 1991/92.  I understand the desire to want to make the connection, but I think a lot of it is reaching and goes a little overboard in trying to suggest the events from the 90s were somehow pre-ordained.    

Not pre-ordained, certainly, but the guy had a 17-year-old girlfriend at the time and tried to coax his teenaged co-start to Paris with him to have her too, and found that interesting enough to make it part of his writing quite a lot, so it seems less about the fact that in 1979 people were way cooler about grown men sleeping with teenagers (which they were) and more about Woody's personal tastes just happening to be that no matter what the decade. 

5 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

 

Quote

 

 5 HOURS AGO, IFIONLYKNEW SAID:

Was it Woody who said during this whole thing "The heart wants what the heart wants"?

 

Yes, it was, and I've always called bullshit on that sentiment.

We're all human. We've all found ourselves attracted to someone we shouldn't be. But at some point, common sense has to take over and make us realize that we need to nip it in the bud instead of actively pursuing it because it's likely to be an absolute disaster otherwise--one/both of you is married/in a relationship, there's a huge age difference, one is in a position of authority (teacher, boss), incompatible orientation, etc.

And was clearly bullshit when he said it, since by his own admission, he wasn't being led by his heart. That makes it sound like he fell in love with Soon-Yi and so just had to be with her and not Mia. But he himself is pretty clear that no, he just wanted to sleep with her in secret for as long as he wanted without Mia finding out. It only became about wanting a committed relationship when he was pushed into it by events. He's been pretty clear about simply not seeing any reason he shouldn't have had Soon-Yi or anyone if he wanted her and could.

20 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

I've often pointed out that this is the danger of sexually abusing an older child (in the mid--late teens range). Because the kid is going through or has completed puberty, is experiencing sexual feelings (and may very well already be sexually active), it's often very easy for the predator to convince them that this is a mutual relationship and/or make them feel like they're complicit in it. It doesn't surprise me at all that people who were in this situation will still deny that it was abuse 20-something years later, even if they declare that they'd go ballistic if they found out that their own kid was in a similar situation.

I was really impressed with his ex that was the inspiration for Manhattan. She seemed like being was being very honest and matter-of-fact about her feelings at the time in context with how she sees it as an adult, without really asking for sympathy or coming up with stories to make Woody look like more of a villain. It seems clear Woody would not offer up the same kind of honest self-reflection at all or take that kind of responsibility.

 

2 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Well, I knew this would be said eventually. It's really a shame that the artistry in the movies cannot be appreciated. Manhattan is still listed as one of the greatest movies of the 20th century, and Annie Hall is classic. The characters that Woody Allen played in those films were not evil, but somewhat nebbish, self-deprecating men. 

 

I liked them both when I saw them. My biggest surprise in Annie Hall was when I saw it again as an adult I realized Annie doesn't really have any career of her own, she just has boyfriends. It's that weird 70s thing. In fact, don't many of Allen's movies actually deal with questions of morality? I think it's in Manhattan where he talks about wanting to have been a good person when he "thins out" (gestures to classroom skeleton).

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It seems like his movies absolutely are still appreciated. As was said, apparently one of them is still considered one of the greatest. His films have won Oscars even in recent years, I believe. He’s doing fine.

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2 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

His films are just not for me. At all. And I’m grateful for that since it means I don’t have to grapple with loving the films of such a disgusting man.

If the films are being used as a means to convince someone of his guilt or innocence, perhaps viewing them is required.  

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Personally, I don’t need his films to convince me of anything. I believe Dylan. And the countless other people who made statements about his behavior towards her and with Soon-Yi. That’s enough for me.

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11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I liked them both when I saw them. My biggest surprise in Annie Hall was when I saw it again as an adult I realized Annie doesn't really have any career of her own, she just has boyfriends. It's that weird 70s thing. In fact, don't many of Allen's movies actually deal with questions of morality? I think it's in Manhattan where he talks about wanting to have been a good person when he "thins out" (gestures to classroom skeleton).

It is strange to our 2020 eyes, that a woman would be THAT adrift. 

Hannah and Her Sisters is great for morality, as Allen's characters thinks he may be dying and he checks out different religions since there is no heaven in the Jewish faith (I think, don't quote me on that).  It's pretty entertaining. 

I realize that this is not discussing the documentary, but more about Allen's career, however, apparently his movies are being used to indicate his character, and I've always enjoyed his movies, and never found them "disgusting." 

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9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I keep going back to that review where someone said, regarding the audio book excerpts, that "nobody defends Woody Allen worse than Woody Allen." Because for years whatever Mia and Dylan say has come with the caveat that we have to remember they're both exceptionally good at lying because Mia's an actress and Dylan is brainwashed. So if they seem sincere, you can't trust that. Meanwhile, Woody gets the excuse that he's just really bad at explaining himself so if he sounds like a creep with no morals, it's just because as a highly-successful writer/director/actor, he's too awkward to explain himself well, so we should assume there's a better version that isn't coming through.

I don't think that was meant to excuse Woody; it meant that even in Woody's autobiography, he comes off as horribly self-centered. Everything is discussed in terms of how it affects him. I have another example just from my reading today: on Ronan Farrow's Wikipedia page, they have a quote from Woody discussing the possibility that Ronan could actually be Frank Sinatra's biological son (Mia has admitted this could be the case, as she had the occasional one-nighter with Frank until he died). Allen is quoted as saying "I paid for child support for him for his whole childhood, and I don't think that's very fair if he's not mine." Ponder that if you will: A man is told his adult son might actually be another man's, and his reaction is to whine about the unfairness towards his bank account. Words fail me.

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22 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I keep going back to that review where someone said, regarding the audio book excerpts, that "nobody defends Woody Allen worse than Woody Allen." Because for years whatever Mia and Dylan say has come with the caveat that we have to remember they're both exceptionally good at lying because Mia's an actress and Dylan is brainwashed. So if they seem sincere, you can't trust that. Meanwhile, Woody gets the excuse that he's just really bad at explaining himself so if he sounds like a creep with no morals, it's just because as a highly-successful writer/director/actor, he's too awkward to explain himself well, so we should assume there's a better version that isn't coming through.

 

2 minutes ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

I don't think that was meant to excuse Woody; it meant that even in Woody's autobiography, he comes off as horribly self-centered. Everything is discussed in terms of how it affects him. I have another example just from my reading today: on Ronan Farrow's Wikipedia page, they have a quote from Woody discussing the possibility that Ronan could actually be Frank Sinatra's biological son (Mia has admitted this could be the case, as she had the occasional one-nighter with Frank until he died). Allen is quoted as saying "I paid for child support for him for his whole childhood, and I don't think that's very fair if he's not mine." Ponder that if you will: A man is told his adult son might actually be another man's, and his reaction is to whine about the unfairness towards his bank account. Words fail me.

I think the review that said no one defends Woody Allen worse than Woody Allen is illustrated perfectly by the quote about Frank Sinatra possibly being Ronan's biological father. Woody is terrible at defending himself because he says awful things like that. Like what kind of person would say that, even jokingly, about their son?

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27 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

was really impressed with his ex that was the inspiration for Manhattan. She seemed like being was being very honest and matter-of-fact about her feelings at the time in context with how she sees it as an adult, without really asking for sympathy or coming up with stories to make Woody look like more of a villain. It

What stood out for me was her admission that she'd been raped 4 times between the ages of 12--14 (or was it 16?). All I could do was wonder if Woody, like so many other predators out there, sensed something vulnerable in her that made her an easy target for him.

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1 minute ago, Dr.OO7 said:

What stood out for me was her admission that she'd been raped 4 times between the ages of 12--14 (or was it 16?). All I could do was wonder if Woody, like so many other predators out there, sensed something vulnerable in her that made her an easy target for him.

SoonYi's biological mother was a sex worker who abandoned SoonYi. When they put SoonYi in an orphanage she had been living on the streets after being abandoned by her mother. 

It's really appalling that Mia Farrow was allowed to adopt so many special-needs kids and there seems to have little vetting about whether she could give these kids the attention and care they needed.

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1 hour ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

I don't think that was meant to excuse Woody; it meant that even in Woody's autobiography, he comes off as horribly self-centered. Everything is discussed in terms of how it affects him. I have another example just from my reading today: on Ronan Farrow's Wikipedia page, they have a quote from Woody discussing the possibility that Ronan could actually be Frank Sinatra's biological son (Mia has admitted this could be the case, as she had the occasional one-nighter with Frank until he died). Allen is quoted as saying "I paid for child support for him for his whole childhood, and I don't think that's very fair if he's not mine." Ponder that if you will: A man is told his adult son might actually be another man's, and his reaction is to whine about the unfairness towards his bank account. Words fail me.

Oh, I didn't think it was meant to excuse him either. But the phrasing just really does that even if it's by accident, in this context. He really is helped by the fact that people so very much don't want to think of anyone, especially a person they know even just through films, as a child molester.

And yet the Ronan quote, along with so many others, really isn't him defending himself badly, just honestly. Given everything he's said elsewhere it seems completely natural that he wouldn't see any contradiction between this being a someone he considered a son and even sued for full custody of and reacting to the news he might not be his biological son by thinking he deserves a refund.

59 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

What stood out for me was her admission that she'd been raped 4 times between the ages of 12--14 (or was it 16?). All I could do was wonder if Woody, like so many other predators out there, sensed something vulnerable in her that made her an easy target for him.

I though that was absolutely the case. Everyone talked about Soon-Yi had clear struggles with trust and connections to people. She adoption experience was so different from the others'. All the more reason a responsible adult would feel bad about isolating her from her entire family. (I'll bet he dangled a movie career in front of her at the start as well.)

Edited by sistermagpie
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That was a hard watch but interesting. Like many have said before me, all I had heard earlier was all the accusations came solely from Dylan and Mia but it is apparent that many people saw what was going on and told Mia about it. Allen's phone call makes it apparent that he wanted to have his cake and eat it too only Mia didn't bite.

I have never been a big fan of Allen's movie, there was just something off about the writing that never really connected with me, but one film I did like was Manhattan Murder Mystery. No one really talks about this film but it was during the time of the child custody suit. Diane Keaton replaced Mia Farrow in the lead and the much younger woman journalist in this film was a 41-yr old Anjelica Houston. Several news outlets claimed this was Woody's way of mitigating the Soon-Yi scandal, eliminating the art reflecting life status of films like Mahattan.

Dylan is a brave woman and her ability to openly discuss this horrible incident is truly remarkable. She refuses to be shamed about what happened to her or take the blame for what he did to her. The story about the spaghetti dinner and learning what would happen to her if she said no helped us understand the feelings of a child who is trying to protect herself from harm by not fighting back makes a lot of sense. Her focus on her brother's train, trying to ignore what he was doing to her, in essence disassociating from the abuse is a common defense mechanism of abused children. She should be proud of what she has accomplished and her ability to create a stable life as a published author with her husband and daughter.

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One example of Mia's lax/neglectful parenting making her kids easy targets was her encouraging SoonYi to go to Knicks games with Woody. It kind of sounded like SoonYi was a bit of a handful and Mia just wanted SoonYi out of her hair. Also: why couldn't Mia take SoonYi herself to Knicks games? 

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20 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

One example of Mia's lax/neglectful parenting making her kids easy targets was her encouraging SoonYi to go to Knicks games with Woody. It kind of sounded like SoonYi was a bit of a handful and Mia just wanted SoonYi out of her hair. Also: why couldn't Mia take SoonYi herself to Knicks games? 

I don't think that was an example of her being neglectful. From what everyone says Soon-Yi wasn't a handful--it was Lark and Daisy who were more likely to sneak out all night etc. Soon-Yi was just shy, which is why it seemed like a nice thing to do. Woody took all the kids to the games because he was the Knicks fan. That was his thing to do, it wasn't something Soon-Yi wanted to do and needed someone to take her. 

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3 hours ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

I don't think that was meant to excuse Woody; it meant that even in Woody's autobiography, he comes off as horribly self-centered. Everything is discussed in terms of how it affects him. I have another example just from my reading today: on Ronan Farrow's Wikipedia page, they have a quote from Woody discussing the possibility that Ronan could actually be Frank Sinatra's biological son (Mia has admitted this could be the case, as she had the occasional one-nighter with Frank until he died). Allen is quoted as saying "I paid for child support for him for his whole childhood, and I don't think that's very fair if he's not mine." Ponder that if you will: A man is told his adult son might actually be another man's, and his reaction is to whine about the unfairness towards his bank account. Words fail me.

It's definitely his own fault if his self-defense damns him, not the film-makers for not finding a more likeable spokesperson for WA.  And yeah, that wikipedia quote jives with the story of how Allen said he would only pay for Ronan's college education if he repudiated Dylan the way Moses eventually did (maybe in return for being in the will?)   And it is clear who Ronan resembles, of the two options.

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So, in this weeks WTF moment, the “babysitter” walks in on a grown man with his face between a child’s legs, and not only does she not do anything but she waits until the next morning to relay this to the mother. Now I have no experience in this type of situation but I think my reaction would be to scream and yell “get off that child, what the fuck are you doing” and then grab the kid to get them out of there. But I guess in the Farrow household that’s not how they roll. What? 

This is the same babysitter that was told not to leave them alone but somehow does? And by my count there were 3 babysitters there at the time. What a house of horrors and what a bunch on inept people. Dylan never stood a chance. Instead of rushing her to the doctor upon revelation she was raped, Farrow spends three days making bad interview tapes. From my view, Farrow seemed more interested in “getting Allen” than doing the right thing by her daughter. 

What a shit show. 

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Has Carly Simon been part of this narrative before? I don't recall her speaking out about this in the past, but I could definitely be forgetting things. Her appearance and involvement in the documentary surprised me.

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12 minutes ago, sadie said:

So, in this weeks WTF moment, the “babysitter” walks in on a grown man with his face between a child’s legs, and not only does she not do anything but she waits until the next morning to relay this to the mother. Now I have no experience in this type of situation but I think my reaction would be to scream and yell “get off that child, what the fuck are you doing” and then grab the kid to get them out of there. But I guess in the Farrow household that’s not how they roll. What? 

This is the same babysitter that was told not to leave them alone but somehow does? And by my count there were 3 babysitters there at the time. What a house of horrors and what a bunch on inept people. Dylan never stood a chance. Instead of rushing her to the doctor upon revelation she was raped, Farrow spends three days making bad interview tapes. From my view, Farrow seemed more interested in “getting Allen” than doing the right thing by her daughter. 

What a shit show. 

The house had 8 kids (counting out SoonYi), a very absent mother and ... Woody. Yeah, I think three baby-sitters were necessary. I felt sorry for Mia's adopted kids. I thought all the home videos of them made them look sad and tired. 

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1 hour ago, sadie said:

So, in this weeks WTF moment, the “babysitter” walks in on a grown man with his face between a child’s legs, and not only does she not do anything but she waits until the next morning to relay this to the mother. Now I have no experience in this type of situation but I think my reaction would be to scream and yell “get off that child, what the fuck are you doing” and then grab the kid to get them out of there. But I guess in the Farrow household that’s not how they roll. What? 

This is the same babysitter that was told not to leave them alone but somehow does? And by my count there were 3 babysitters there at the time. What a house of horrors and what a bunch on inept people. Dylan never stood a chance. Instead of rushing her to the doctor upon revelation she was raped, Farrow spends three days making bad interview tapes. From my view, Farrow seemed more interested in “getting Allen” than doing the right thing by her daughter. 

What a shit show. 

I don't know...I think this again comes down to what seems to happen every time these stories come out. The babysitter's instincts were right, but she told herself it was nothing, that there was some reason Dylan's father was just laying his head in her lap. But she did at least tell someone the next day who reported it directly to her mother. I seem to remember stories in the Sandusky case where he was seen actually having sex with boys and the person didn't call the police--they acted more like this babysitter. In fact, I remember in another forum someone describing something similar when talking about their spouse's alcohol addiction. They told themselves they were "gathering evidence" until it something really bad happened, and then they saw that all the "clues" they collected were actually more than clues.

Iirc, this wasn't the babysitter told to keep him from being alone with her. (Which wasn't for sexual reasons at that point, I don't think, he was just known to be "too intense.") It was the friend's babysitter. The other sitter and the au pair were searching the house for them after he took her to the attic. Which yeah--you had one job and you blew it. But that wasn't an accident. Allen the famous director and child's father hid with her and they were a couple of hired help girls.

It is a shitshow, but I honestly still think that everyone's behavior lines up more with people so often choosing denial over sexual abuse. If Mia was wanting to get Woody, it doesn't seem like asking Dylan what happened on tape would more obviously get him than taking her to the hospital and reporting she'd been raped by Woody, or be obviously better for Dylan in the long run--but then, I don't know exactly what happened next so maybe I'm wrong about that. I'll have to see in the next ep.

 

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There is something about Mia Farrow that just seems so emotionally stunted. She's 76 years old yet consistently speaks like a little girl who is lost in the woods. I cringed when she described her excitement about being asked out by Woody Allen. She acted as if she had never been asked to go out on a date before. Oh goody! Now she had someone who could take her to do fun things. I know she cited a serious bout with polio and the death of her father as being two life defining events in her life. But I've known plenty of people, who experienced multiple traumas early in their lives, who are still able to present themselves as fully functioning adults. Her naivete is odd. Also, I don't know what to make of this, but one of her brothers received a 10 year sentence in 2014 for sexually molesting 2 young boys. It makes me wonder if she had come from a family with a lot of secrets. It might explain her willful ignorance about the many inappropriate behaviors Allen exhibited prior to the final charge of sexual assault.

https://www.salon.com/2014/02/04/mia_farrows_sex_abuse_silence/

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2 hours ago, sadie said:

So, in this weeks WTF moment, the “babysitter” walks in on a grown man with his face between a child’s legs, and not only does she not do anything but she waits until the next morning to relay this to the mother. Now I have no experience in this type of situation but I think my reaction would be to scream and yell “get off that child, what the fuck are you doing” and then grab the kid to get them out of there. But I guess in the Farrow household that’s not how they roll. What? 

The babysitters were placed in an impossible situation. She didn’t walk in on anything illegal and Allen was Dylan’s legal father. It sounds like there was nothing formal preventing Allen from being with Dylan which means he was legally the authority figure when Mia wasn’t there. That is way too much to put on a babysitter.  Particularly when this wasn’t even a sitter that worked for Farrow.

A few years ago I briefly watched a child during a contentious situation and insisted that the other parent not know where we were because I had zero legal authority to stop them from showing up and taking the child. 

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47 minutes ago, Mannahatta said:

There is something about Mia Farrow that just seems so emotionally stunted. She's 76 years old yet consistently speaks like a little girl who is lost in the woods. I cringed when she described her excitement about being asked out by Woody Allen. She acted as if she had never been asked to go out on a date before. Oh goody! Now she had someone who could take her to do fun things. I know she cited a serious bout with polio and the death of her father as being two life defining events in her life. But I've known plenty of people, who experienced multiple traumas early in their lives, who are still able to present themselves as fully functioning adults. Her naivete is odd. Also, I don't know what to make of this, but one of her brothers received a 10 year sentence in 2014 for sexually molesting 2 young boys. It makes me wonder if she had come from a family with a lot of secrets. It might explain her willful ignorance about the many inappropriate behaviors Allen exhibited prior to the final charge of sexual assault.

https://www.salon.com/2014/02/04/mia_farrows_sex_abuse_silence/

I feel like Mia got stuck in that gamine persona somewhere early in life and stuck to it. I wonder if her first serious relationship being a man so much older (Frank Sinatra) and her second husband also being much older (Andre Previn) AND her third partner being a famous director made her think her spacey, girlish mannerisms were somehow cute.

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13 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I'm starting to think Allen thought Farrow was an easy mark. She was talented but not THAT talented. She had a bunch of kids in varying degrees of neglect. She didn't have much of a career besides being in his movies. 

I'm not defending Mia at all -- I think she was probably a shit mother. But very often children of shit mothers are easier targets. 

She did have a decent career before she started seeing Woody.

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9 hours ago, cardigirl said:

It is strange to our 2020 eyes, that a woman would be THAT adrift. 

Hannah and Her Sisters is great for morality, as Allen's characters thinks he may be dying and he checks out different religions since there is no heaven in the Jewish faith (I think, don't quote me on that).  It's pretty entertaining. 

I realize that this is not discussing the documentary, but more about Allen's career, however, apparently his movies are being used to indicate his character, and I've always enjoyed his movies, and never found them "disgusting." 

Seeing clips of Manhattan now makes me cringe. A middle aged man with a baby faced 17-year old? Would it be creepy if I, as a now middle aged woman, started sleeping with a teenage boy? I think so.

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14 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Gene Kelly is 40 in Signin' in the Rain.  His love interest, Debbie Reynolds, is 19.  In The Prince and the Showgirl, Laurence Olivier is 50.  His love interest, Marilyn Monroe, is 31.  In The Misfits, Clark Gable is 59, and his love interest, Marilyn Monroe, is 34.  In The Country Girl, Bing Crosby, 51, is married to Grace Kelly, 25.   

In real life, my grandfather, at the age of 36, married my grandmother, at the age of 16. They stayed happily married until his death at 89.

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14 hours ago, sadie said:

So, in this weeks WTF moment, the “babysitter” walks in on a grown man with his face between a child’s legs, and not only does she not do anything but she waits until the next morning to relay this to the mother. Now I have no experience in this type of situation but I think my reaction would be to scream and yell “get off that child, what the fuck are you doing” and then grab the kid to get them out of there. But I guess in the Farrow household that’s not how they roll. What? 

This is the same babysitter that was told not to leave them alone but somehow does? And by my count there were 3 babysitters there at the time. What a house of horrors and what a bunch on inept people. Dylan never stood a chance. Instead of rushing her to the doctor upon revelation she was raped, Farrow spends three days making bad interview tapes. From my view, Farrow seemed more interested in “getting Allen” than doing the right thing by her daughter. 

What a shit show. 

Well, only two of the adults in the house worked for Mia - the babysitter and the French tutor. The other girl (who was the one who actually saw Woody and Dylan) was the neighbors babysitter who walked in on them. She was their watching the neighbor's two (or three??) kids. So you have two adults (only one of whom stated that she was told to keep an eye on Woody and Dylan) watching Mia's eight and another adult watching 2-3 other kids. Given the age ranges and the size of the home, my guess is that kids were all over the place, and that when "dad" Woody showed up no one thought it odd at all that he disappeared into the house with the kids. The girl who caught them didn't snatch Dylan away because she was a guest in the  house -my guess is that she felt something wrong, but didn't want to confront Woody which is why she told her boss that night and the boss called Mia immediately the next morning. 

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I've never watched Manhattan but I did watch Whatever Works where Larry David's character marries Evan Rachel Woods's character. Which....ick. I did actually like Match Point.

Episode 2 was hard to watch but I learned some things I didn't know before. I had no idea Mia and Woody made 13 films together. Also Mia having to finish Husbands and Wives with Woody while going through this whole ordeal. That must have been terrible for her. I thought the details provided about how he treated her regarding her career where interesting. Basically telling her "you're old, nobody will hire you except me." Thus giving him more control over her. Family friend Priscilla also was invited to his screening room. The excerpts from his book made it clear that he considered the relationship with Soon-Yi a fling and I don't think he ever would have married her if they weren't found out. 

The videos with Dylan are heartbreaking. 

On a shallow note, Mia was a stunner when she was younger. 

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