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The Marvel Saga: Marvel Mysteries to the MCU

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20 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Don't know if this goes here, but I'm seeing a lot of assumptions on social media that Sam/the New Captain America will be the leader of the new Avengers just like the old Cap was.  Maybe that will happen (was that the case in the comics?), but it bothers me a bit because it seems like most of the new Avengers will be women, like Wanda, Monica, new Black Widow, She-Hulk, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, possibly Shuri as the new Black Panther, etc.  I actually saw Monica Rambeau as the potential new leader of the Avengers.  Captain America can still be a valuable member of the team without being the leader. 

Rhodes should be the leader of the new Avengers.  He's got the experience, higher rank (call me Sir, Captains!), and unlike the other characters he was around for the 5 years and has a firmer grasp of what has happened in the world. 

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15 hours ago, Smad said:

Not once did Monica show any empathy for the VICTIMS and that's why I don't give a damn about her. When someone rightly points out Wanda is enslaving thousands of people, her response is 'it could have been thousands more'. Are you kidding me? This included children and possibly babies lets not forget. Those people were so badly tortured that they said 'if you won't let us go Wanda then please kill us' and Monica is like 'oh Wanda you sacrificed so much'. What with the what? And to top off this fabulous fiasco, Monica said she would have done the same to bring her mother back. Monica's lack of empathy (except for the VILLAIN), morals and ethics couldn't have been shown more clearly IMO.

Monica was a victim of Wanda. She didn't need to speak empathy for the victims. She knows first-hand their suffering. What is remarkable to me about her is that having experienced that suffering, she still had the perspective that the best way to deal with the situation is not to attempt to blow Wanda off the map but to show compassion and understanding toward her. 

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4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Monica was a victim of Wanda. She didn't need to speak empathy for the victims. She knows first-hand their suffering. What is remarkable to me about her is that having experienced that suffering, she still had the perspective that the best way to deal with the situation is not to attempt to blow Wanda off the map but to show compassion and understanding toward her. 

Sympathy for the villain is great and all. And viewers can have that too. But no one has refuted her statements of 'she would have done the same' and 'it could have been thousands more'. Both of which are morally and ethically repugnant.

Never mind that Monica didn't seem as impacted as the actual townspeople (and anyone connected to them). Aside from being inside the hex for a day or so only, she clearly had more autonomy than those who actually had a connection to Westview. Otherwise she wouldn't have remembered Ultron and Agatha wouldn't have tried to get rid of her well before Wanda lost her grip. She also didn't have any connections to anyone like a child locked in a room, trapped in endless loops or freeze frame like the ones on the edge of town, sick family members or friends/family outside Westview (who lets not forget were also impacted by Wanda's magic).

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3 minutes ago, Smad said:

Sympathy for the villain is great and all. And viewers can have that too. But no one has refuted her statements of 'she would have done the same' and 'it could have been thousands more'. Both of which are morally and ethically repugnant.

 

Monica was in the process of getting through to Wanda so Wanda would break her enchantment over the town.  Whatever words she used were to further this goal.  She may have fudged the truth a bit in order to get through to Wanda.  Monica was a hostage negotiator.  Those words were not meant to be taken as the whole truth.  

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And if Monica had been left to get through to Wanda, the townspeople would have been freed much sooner.

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It would be funny if former SWORD boss, Douchebag Hayward got sent to The Raft and bonds with Zemo about super powered people.

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The only thing that this show did to fix Steve’s very divisive ending was to confirm that he told Bucky what he was going to do. Yippee, good for him, and I mean that sarcastically.

Everything else just makes him look worse. It goes against Steve Rogers’ entire character that he would go back to Peggy, knowing that her niece had been branded a fugitive and enemy of the state and he hadn’t even asked the government to pardon her? She chose to help him knowing the consequences but that’s not the point. The point is the Steve we knew wouldn’t have let himself off the hook for that. He was always the person that looked out for the little guy. Choosing Peggy over her is one thing, but now we’re supposed to believe that he “just kind of forgot about her” after CW.

No, the Russos just cut her out of IW and Endgame as a “quick fix” to all the trolling and backlash. It’s pathetic. And these writers had the chance to bring her back and use her in a better way, but instead decide to turn her into a villain just to make Endgame Steve look better by comparison.

And honestly, what was the point of bringing in Zemo at all? Just for quirky entertaining interactions with Sam and Bucky? If you want to bring back a Marvel villain, actually USE HIM AS A VILLAIN. Don’t woobify the male villain with nuance and charm while throwing one of the female characters under the bus and turn her into an irredeemable bitch (no, having her be a Skrull later is just another quick fix that doesn’t address the problem I stated above).

I’m sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but this series really feels like a let down. I have felt this disappointed since Game of Thrones, but I’m trying to let go sooner because I want to be in a good mood for Loki.

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5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

The only thing that this show did to fix Steve’s very divisive ending was to confirm that he told Bucky what he was going to do. Yippee, good for him, and I mean that sarcastically.

Everything else just makes him look worse. It goes against Steve Rogers’ entire character that he would go back to Peggy, knowing that her niece had been branded a fugitive and enemy of the state and he hadn’t even asked the government to pardon her? She chose to help him knowing the consequences but that’s not the point. The point is the Steve we knew wouldn’t have let himself off the hook for that. He was always the person that looked out for the little guy. Choosing Peggy over her is one thing, but now we’re supposed to believe that he “just kind of forgot about her” after CW.

No, the Russos just cut her out of IW and Endgame as a “quick fix” to all the trolling and backlash. It’s pathetic. And these writers had the chance to bring her back and use her in a better way, but instead decide to turn her into a villain just to make Endgame Steve look better by comparison.

And honestly, what was the point of bringing in Zemo at all? Just for quirky entertaining interactions with Sam and Bucky? If you want to bring back a Marvel villain, actually USE HIM AS A VILLAIN. Don’t woobify the male villain with nuance and charm while throwing one of the female characters under the bus and turn her into an irredeemable bitch (no, having her be a Skrull later is just another quick fix that doesn’t address the problem I stated above).

I’m sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but this series really feels like a let down. I have felt this disappointed since Game of Thrones, but I’m trying to let go sooner because I want to be in a good mood for Loki.

I'm right there with you except as to Zemo.

I don't think he was any less villainous here than he was in Civil War. He murdered Nagel. He attempted to kill Karli and only didn't succeed because she was covered in plot armor that only gave way in the finale. His henchman murdered another three or four people.

I don't think that the show woobified Zemo. 

I think confronting Zemo was an important character development for Bucky. It also allowed the writers to have things happen that would not likely have happened or at least raised questions, like Sam and Bucky's ability to globe-trot, or whether they would kill to stop the super-soldier serum from becoming ubiquitous.

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1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think that the show woobified Zemo. 

Yet somehow the audience became obsessed with him because of that stupid dancing. But maybe you can chalk that up to the fandom and how they react to things.

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14 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yet somehow the audience became obsessed with him because of that stupid dancing. But maybe you can chalk that up to the fandom and how they react to things.

Zemo is a Hannibal Lecter villain... veneer of sophistication, snobbery etc... hiding a homicidal core... fandom got Lecter an eponymous sequel and a TV show.  Not unlike Loki

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22 hours ago, Smad said:

Sympathy for the villain is great and all. And viewers can have that too. But no one has refuted her statements of 'she would have done the same' and 'it could have been thousands more'. Both of which are morally and ethically repugnant.

Never mind that Monica didn't seem as impacted as the actual townspeople (and anyone connected to them). Aside from being inside the hex for a day or so only, she clearly had more autonomy than those who actually had a connection to Westview. Otherwise she wouldn't have remembered Ultron and Agatha wouldn't have tried to get rid of her well before Wanda lost her grip. She also didn't have any connections to anyone like a child locked in a room, trapped in endless loops or freeze frame like the ones on the edge of town, sick family members or friends/family outside Westview (who lets not forget were also impacted by Wanda's magic).

Because I'm sane (mostly) and have worked through grief for the losses in my life, I know that I would not hold a single person hostage to let me live in a fantasy scenario where I didn't suffer those losses.

But I'd be a big fat liar if I were to say that it would not be tempting on some level, or that I would certainly would be strong enough to resist the temptation especially if experienced the temptation as Wanda did -- not as a Faustian bargain, but just caught up in the middle of it at the height of my grief. 

And I am cynical enough to think that a good percentage of people who were still fresh in grief might be tempted too.

"Given the chance and given your power, I'd bring my mom back. I know I would." is what she said, which is slightly different and less unethical than "If it took enslaving a town, I would do it" or "You were totally justified in doing what you did."

There is nothing unethical about saying that Wanda could have kidnapped and enslaved thousands more to her delusions. It's a matter of fact. Now whether one is going to credit that fact with much significance because she didn't happen to create the Hex in NYC or start to expand it beyond Westview is another matter.

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36 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yet somehow the audience became obsessed with him because of that stupid dancing. But maybe you can chalk that up to the fandom and how they react to things.

Memes conquer all, sadly. 

I liked Daniel Bruhl's performance, and I think Zemo is a genuinely interesting character - his hatred of superheroes is genuine and his stance on superpowers and the inherent fascism of them was proved in this show. He's a villain of principle. I'm very keen to see where his character goes from here, and think there's good growth potential for him in a Thunderbolts show.

But all some people seem to remember (particularly on Reddit) is the dancing. I do not want to see him woobified or turned into a fan-led obsession like Loki has been, just because the actor is charming.

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think confronting Zemo was an important character development for Bucky. It also allowed the writers to have things happen that would not likely have happened or at least raised questions, like Sam and Bucky's ability to globe-trot, or whether they would kill to stop the super-soldier serum from becoming ubiquitous.

Zemo is the remaining manifestation of Bucky's trauma. All the rest of those who brainwashed him and used him are gone, but Zemo was the most recent and the only one who Bucky could get revenge on, if he so chose.

Him refusing, and handing Zemo over the the Wakandans was the point where he realised he could truly be free of his past. It's corny as fuck, but it works for him as a character and for his healing process.

For eighty years he never had a choice of who he pointed a gun at and whether he pulled the trigger or not, and even once he thought he'd regained that freedom, Zemo showed him that it was an illusion and took control of him.

Even if Zemo never appears in the MCU again, I think it was important he be in this show so Bucky can put his time as a brainwashed assassin behind him for good.

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2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Memes conquer all, sadly. 

I liked Daniel Bruhl's performance, and I think Zemo is a genuinely interesting character - his hatred of superheroes is genuine and his stance on superpowers and the inherent fascism of them was proved in this show. He's a villain of principle. I'm very keen to see where his character goes from here, and think there's good growth potential for him in a Thunderbolts show.

But all some people seem to remember (particularly on Reddit) is the dancing. I do not want to see him woobified or turned into a fan-led obsession like Loki has been, just because the actor is charming.

Zemo is the remaining manifestation of Bucky's trauma. All the rest of those who brainwashed him and used him are gone, but Zemo was the most recent and the only one who Bucky could get revenge on, if he so chose.

Him refusing, and handing Zemo over the the Wakandans was the point where he realised he could truly be free of his past. It's corny as fuck, but it works for him as a character and for his healing process.

For eighty years he never had a choice of who he pointed a gun at and whether he pulled the trigger or not, and even once he thought he'd regained that freedom, Zemo showed him that it was an illusion and took control of him.

Even if Zemo never appears in the MCU again, I think it was important he be in this show so Bucky can put his time as a brainwashed assassin behind him for good.

100% all this.

I also think there is a neat parallel with T'Challa at the end of Civil War. He had the best arc in that film (which isn't acknowledged enough because the Team Cap/Team IM framing of discussion limits everyone to static narrative boxes) and it culminates in T'Challa showing a beautiful moment of grace in forsaking vengeance.

Bucky got the same moment at last. 

 

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So the Marvel Legends range reaches a new level of customer exploitation:

zvh0pgw1ujv61.jpg

They sell these waves with a build-a-figure, where you collect different parts of an extra figure with each complete figure you buy. 

For this wave, instead of the usual build-a-figure of a minor character or monster, they've made Sam's wings the element you have to collect. A bit of each wing is packaged with each figure (and Redwing is in there with Loki). So the only way you can complete the new Captain America - the flagship character of the wave - is by buying all seven figures.

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15 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I'm sure someone will try to sell just the wing components on ebay

Someone else will try to sell broken-ass Falcon wings

15 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I'm sure someone will try to sell just the wing components on ebay

For an amount that exceeds the cost of buying all 7 action figures separately...

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On 4/27/2021 at 12:56 PM, cambridgeguy said:

I'm sure someone will try to sell just the wing components on ebay

Yeah, there's always a secondary market for this stuff. There will be people who want the Loki or Bucky figures, but don't care about the wings, and there will be people who buy those figures for the wings, but then look to sell on the figures.

Apparently some of these Legends build-a-figures go for about $300, complete, on ebay.

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I just posted a CBR article in the Media thread that speculated about the reasons for Bucky's diminished super abilities in TFATWS series.

Reading that article reminded me of a question I had when re-watching Infinity War recently. At the start of the battle in Wakanda, we see Steve and T'Challa racing ahead, far in front of everyone else, which makes sense because of their enhanced abilities giving them super strength and speed. However, Bucky is also super enhanced, so logically he should also have been out in front as well.

So did Bucky purposefully hold back, as acknowledgment of the others' leadership? Or was this just another instance where Bucky's abilities were diminished because he was a supporting character in Infinity War and it looked better visually for only the two enhanced leaders to race out front?

Edited by tv echo

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On 5/2/2021 at 9:17 AM, tv echo said:

I just posted a CBR article in the Media thread that speculated about the reasons for Bucky's diminished super abilities in TFATWS series.

Reading that article reminded me of a question I had when re-watching Infinity War recently. At the start of the battle in Wakanda, we see Steve and T'Challa racing ahead, far in front of everyone else, which makes sense because of their enhanced abilities giving them super strength and speed. However, Bucky is also super enhanced, so logically he should also have been out in front as well.

So did Bucky purposefully hold back, as acknowledgment of the others' leadership? Or was this just another instance where Bucky's abilities were diminished because he was a supporting character in Infinity War and it looked better visually for only the two enhanced leaders to race out front?

I would say that it was more that Steve and T'Challa were going to be fighting the Thanos minions in hand-to-hand combat as a matter of first resort, whereas Bucky was going to be fighting them by shooting them as a matter of first resort. No need to rush to the front lines if the plan is to cap them from a distance.

By the same token, obviously Rhodey, Sam and Bruce-in-Hulkbuster armor are faster than even enhanced humans can run. But they did not outpace Steve and T'Challa either. 

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23 hours ago, tv echo said:

FYI, Sebastian Stan, Emily VanCamp, Don Cheadle and Georges St-Pierre are part of the voice cast list for Marvel's What If...? animated series...

Here's the link to the What If...? forum here:
https://forums.primetimer.com/forum/4565-what-if/ 

Well if the show is going to have an A/U that has freaking Kilmonger as a good guy, will it be too much to hope that What If!Sharon will also be a hero the way she was supposed to be?

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