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The Marvel Saga: Marvel Mysteries to the MCU

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[quote]If I understand the whole thing with the flag smashers correctly, it is not that there weren't any borders after the Snap, but because so many people were suddenly missing, refugees were more welcome to fill the gabs which were left in the workforce. But now where all countries have their own "refugees" (meaning people who came back during the snap and now need to get back into their lives), there is a renewed interest in getting rid of those refugees, maybe partly so that the jobs they do can be done by those, who used to do them, again. Kind of like how after the war a lot of women lost their jobs they were encouraged to take on during the war to returning soldiers. Naturally the whole thing is meant to be a reflection of the current refugee discussion (with certain States basically wanting to put them into cages and forcing them out of the country, and the EU sometimes bringing up moral arguments but being unable to "win" against certain member states), but it doesn't really work because the references are way too vague for someone who hasn't paid attention to the topic, and too clumsy for those who have. It is also kind of odd that in a story about "Captain America" they mostly show how refugees in the EU life, but don't address the topic at all in the connection to the US (other than apparently this conference happening in the US and the guy from the US being some sort of a-hole about it).[/quote]

I once again wish that we  would have a series set in the time between the Snap and Endgam (or further) because that seems like such fertile ground for stories. Right now we basically have background lines from WandaVision where Hayward says that people who were Snapped are lucky because they didn't know how bad things got, and people like Karli and the Flag Smashers looking at the period as some sort of Golden Age that is now threatened by the return of everybody. We have been largely left to fill in the gaps and reconcile the somewhat contradictory takes. 

My personal take: A lot would depend on how the Snap manifested itself. Things would be different, for instance, if more than half of the world's billionaires were Snapped, or if some countries were more heavily affected than others. Some people and countries would see power vacuums and try to take advantage of them. Some people and countries might have to set up the new alliances that were alluded to in order to stop them. Right now, the world has enough resources to make sure that everyone has enough to eat and drink, has their basic medical and housing needs taken care of, has quality education and employment options etc. But we don't make sure of that because of various political and philosophical obstacles.

It's possible that against the backdrop of losing 3.5 billion people, Earth abandoned those philosophies and started being more equitable. It's possible that against the backdrop of a major threat from the stars that literally wiped out half of life in the universe and other unnamed threats, countries stopped spending trillions to prepare to fight each other and banded together as "One World. One People" in anticipation of future extraterrestrial threats. And the shared trauma probably would also have united the survivors to a certain extent.

Then comes the return of 3.5 billion people. For those people, they have not had the political/philosophical/mental shift of those who were not Snapped. They largely have had their possessions taken away because they were presumed dead. They don't fit into the New World Order. Up comes the Global Repatriation Council, which seems at least from Karli's perspective, too willing to bend over to accommodate the returnees and restore the old way of doing things. 

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Having seen the Great Recession and then the pandemic play out in succession, the first thing I’d expect from the snap is that landlords (or their heirs) would immediately want to fill the empty units, whether residential or commercial, on their hands, so you’d see lobbying for a lot more people in need of rentals able to move into cities. So yeah, the movement of people across borders, especially inside the EU is logical. Actually, in most of Europe as a citizen you have the right to live wherever you like already, and there have recently been vast movements of people right across the continent with relatively little disruption, so that really wouldn’t be where the worst problems would happen. For example, the idea of a bunch of Sokovians showing up in Germany or Spain wouldn’t be a shock to anyone, even though Sokovia doesn’t seem to have ever been in the EU. Ignorant people would mostly think you were Romanian or Polish or Bulgarian half the time. But what if you were a family from Ghana moving to a little village in Former-Sokovia with no other previous black residents? Would you be welcomed or shunned?

Jobs everywhere, especially essential professions, doctors/nurses, social workers, police, street cleaners etc would need to be filled as even with a lower population, as there would be more antisocial behaviors. A lot of people would be feeling like the anarchists might have been right. A lot of people would have been incredibly depressed. Perhaps this is where Bucky’s therapist got slightly burnt out?

Vast numbers of orphans, the older ones left without families permanently, but also vast numbers of adoptions of young kids, the new parents never expecting to have to hand back that child to what, to them, would be a stranger.

The remaining superheroes would certainly have been kept busy. I would expect a few power plays, a few minor wars, nations seeing nearby neighbors with their dictators snapped would be inspired to overthrow their own leader. Lots of invasions of neighboring countries for resources, or just because a powerful figure is now missing. Half of Vice Presidents/heirs to the throne would now be head of state. Wakanda would presumably have been regented by Ramonda in the meanwhile, although who knows? 

There would be a huge lack of new stuff. How do you make ongoing TV shows or even news shows? Forget the White Wolf, what happens on CNN when Wolf Blitzer has been snapped? How does Disney make a new Obi-Wan Kenobi show when Euan McGregor is suddenly missing half way through filming? How do basketball teams continue with half their famous players? So distractions would be in short supply, or depressing because you assume there’ll never be a sequel now half the actors are gone, or your favorite player is missing.

And meanwhile, everyone is completely personally distraught, anxious, terrified, broken. Half their family/colleagues/friends/teachers are gone. Everyone unsure if they too might just disappear tomorrow. Cults and other sects springing up everywhere, lots of people think some kind of rapture happened and they got left behind. Lots of unsuitable relationships, lots of carpe diem, lots of suicides and long term addiction that can’t be undone. Most distraught fathers and mothers would make possibly even worse choices than Clint. Lots of anger. Lots of crazy defense plans involving vast numbers of nukes.

Actually, thinking about it, Marvel has really toned this thing down. It would have been a total clustershow.

 

Edited by Lebanna
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Brought from the Truth thread:

Quote

 

3 HOURS AGO, SMAD SAID:

I would have hated that too but I wouldn't have been surprised if it happened considering that Gamora and Black Widow were the mother figures in their respective teams so MCU has a track record for that demeaning nonsense.

 

I'm unclear on how being a mother figure is "demeaning nonsense." Both women were smart, physically capable, valued members of their teams. Where were they demeaned by also being portrayed as compassionate and supportive? I'm assuming that's what is meant by mothering behavior, at least.

Edited by bethy
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So with all the talk about the importance of the shield in this show and all the talk in Wandavision about the importance and value of keeping track of vibranium it makes me wonder what happened to the shield Cap used in Endgame. It was the one with the giant crack in it. When he got on the time machine at the end he has the stones and Mjolnir so it's not like the one he gave Sam was just his that had been repaired. So who the hell has it?

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9 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

so it's not like the one he gave Sam was just his that had been repaired. So who the hell has it?

Maybe Thor has it. He will bring it to Tyrion Lannister for recycling.

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On 4/18/2021 at 3:18 PM, bethy said:

Brought from the Truth thread:

I'm unclear on how being a mother figure is "demeaning nonsense." Both women were smart, physically capable, valued members of their teams. Where were they demeaned by also being portrayed as compassionate and supportive? I'm assuming that's what is meant by mothering behavior, at least.

Gamora and Natasha being supportive and compassionate isn’t the reason I would say they were put in a mothering role. Those traits are not exclusive to mothers or even woman. I would say both woman were put into the role of mother in a way that did not fit their characters in the slightest and came off as somewhat sexist. It’s more about things like Gamora being the one who tried to reign in the Guardian’s criminal tendencies or Natasha being the one to coach Hulk with the lullaby.  

Edited by Dani
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4 hours ago, Dani said:

Natasha being the one to coach Hulk with the lullaby.  

I think in light of recent revelations about a certain director’s attitude to women (among other groups), everything related to Natasha and her relationship with/revelations to Bruce in that movie is now very widely considered pretty sexist and a huge mistake. It’s a pity. 

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1 hour ago, Lebanna said:

I think in light of recent revelations about a certain director’s attitude to women (among other groups), everything related to Natasha and her relationship with/revelations to Bruce in that movie is now very widely considered pretty sexist and a huge mistake. It’s a pity. 

Although watching Thor try the hypnosis was hilarious... different director

Edited by paigow
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18 hours ago, bethy said:

Brought from the Truth thread:

I'm unclear on how being a mother figure is "demeaning nonsense." Both women were smart, physically capable, valued members of their teams. Where were they demeaned by also being portrayed as compassionate and supportive? I'm assuming that's what is meant by mothering behavior, at least.

There is a reason why Gamora is a lot of people's least fave Guardian and it's because she is pushed into the mother role for a group of man children. It makes her much less dynamic while also meaning she has no humor and she tries to put an end to the whacky high jinks and bickering. She's also the only one with a strong moral compass who tries to do the right thing. I can't imagine the team would last for a month (even after years of being together) without her mothering because they would kill each other over nothing. That end scene in Endgame with the Guardians and Thor would never have lasted as long as it did (what a blessing that would have been) if (original) Gamora had been there. Guess Mantis (who is also a child in many ways) or Nebula will have to step up and be the new mother because God knows none of the guys will ever grow up. As utterly unrealistic as either would be in the role (just like Gamora was unrealistic but them even more so), Gamora was the one who kept the whole group of children from imploding.

Black Widow has less moments like this because there happen to be some actual adult males around. But even then she didn't engage in the whole 'who has the biggest' contest with Thor's hammer in Ultron. She is usually calling the others on their nonsense and character flaws without it being a pissing contest or sarcasm. She was the one trying to knock some sense into both sides to keep the team together during Civil War. She was the who kept the home fires burning after Infinity War. Widow is a much more dynamic character outside of the big team up movies where she can have, for example, a lot more humor.

While the Widow case is admittedly weak, Gamora's is not. Especially when she was referred to as the mother figure of the team in the press interviews for Guardians Vol.2.

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14 hours ago, Lebanna said:

I think in light of recent revelations about a certain director’s attitude to women (among other groups), everything related to Natasha and her relationship with/revelations to Bruce in that movie is now very widely considered pretty sexist and a huge mistake. It’s a pity. 

Everything Natasha was given to do in Ultron was widely considered sexiest and a mistake from the day it was released. 

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I'm still amazed that Whedon got away with having Loki call BW a "mewling quim" in Avengers. It would be like someone using a racial slur to describe T'Challa. 

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7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'm still amazed that Whedon got away with having Loki call BW a "mewling quim" in Avengers. It would be like someone using a racial slur to describe T'Challa. 

No different than James Gunn having Drax call Gamora a 'green whore' in the first Guardians even though it makes no sense.

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11 hours ago, Dani said:

Everything Natasha was given to do in Ultron was widely considered sexiest and a mistake from the day it was released. 

It would have worked with a few tweaks though.  The problem lies in Whedon who couldn't handle having someone like Natasha not like sex--ie, she's too hot, or not want children.  

Now Natasha being the Hulk Whisperer is harder to tweak.

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9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'm still amazed that Whedon got away with having Loki call BW a "mewling quim" in Avengers. It would be like someone using a racial slur to describe T'Challa. 

 

1 hour ago, Smad said:

No different than James Gunn having Drax call Gamora a 'green whore' in the first Guardians even though it makes no sense.

Much love to all the characters of Guardians and Loki, but if we can’t imagine someone like Zemo using an anti-Black racial slur towards and/or insulting Sam or T’Challa’s masculinity in this universe, why did those lines survive the editing process? Yeah.

And if we want to think about it deeper, both of these roles are played by minority actresses who had those insults chucked at them in the script, so there’s no differentiation there. Is it just seen as ok to insult women? 

Is the idea that such verbal violence inspires sympathy in the audience for a female character that a male character would enjoy anyway, or are the writers not even aware of the possibility that women could get through a verbal confrontation without a male character referencing their genitals? Both Loki and Drax may be anti-heroes, but they are also really likeable and popular. 

The Marvel universe, as has been shown  by this series, is becoming a lot more thoughtful about some important social issues all the time. Hopefully this will be an area they think about next.

Edited by Lebanna
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On 4/19/2021 at 6:19 AM, Lebanna said:

I think in light of recent revelations about a certain director’s attitude to women (among other groups), everything related to Natasha and her relationship with/revelations to Bruce in that movie is now very widely considered pretty sexist and a huge mistake. It’s a pity. 

Alternately, Natasha had an almost identical conversation with Steve in The Winter Soldier, and as far as I know without drawing the ire of a certain faction of shippers, which is an entirely different subject. If Nat had mentioned the 'graduation ceremony' to Cap in any context, would that be as problematic? Because I still have the feeling that if the Bruce/Natasha pairing had been as popular as the one between her and Steve, it wouldn't even be a blip on anyone's radar. The pity is that the collective We lean harder when it's something We already didn't like.

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55 minutes ago, Lebanna said:

Both Loki and Drax may be anti-heroes, but they are also really likeable and popular. 

Loki wasn't really an anti-hero in Avengers, he was the full on villain. Between destroying the Shield complex and the attack on NY he probably killed 100's of people. Should sexist comments really be that much of a surprise for that level of villain, and are they really too much to accept compared to all the murders?

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4 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Loki wasn't really an anti-hero in Avengers, he was the full on villain. Between destroying the Shield complex and the attack on NY he probably killed 100's of people. 

He ripped the eyeball out of that dude in Germany so Barton could unlock the door 

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8 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Loki wasn't really an anti-hero in Avengers, he was the full on villain. Between destroying the Shield complex and the attack on NY he probably killed 100's of people. Should sexist comments really be that much of a surprise for that level of villain, and are they really too much to accept compared to all the murders?

I would have to guess that the body count attributable to Loki in Avengers probably would have to fall in the thousands., between the two attacks on the SHIELD facilities and the Battle of New York.

I have no problem with him being sexist or making sexist comments. It's more with the intensity of of that particular comment. Calling someone a whore/bitch and those sorts of things is IMO a different universe than using the c-word, and "quim" is an old-fashioned version of the c-word.

By the same token, it seemed clear (to me, anyway), that Klaue had a whole bunch of racist attitudes going on toward Wakanda, but never in a million years would Disney allow him to call T'Challa or Wakandans out and out slurs.

Edited by Chicago Redshirt
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3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Alternately, Natasha had an almost identical conversation with Steve in The Winter Soldier, and as far as I know without drawing the ire of a certain faction of shippers, which is an entirely different subject.

I've never had a problem with the Nat/Bruce convo in Ultron. My ire had more to do with the rest of the movie and Nat's role in it. My biggest issue was the fact that Nat was the one abducted by Ultron and therefor out of the action for a while. Of course you put your one female Avenger in that position instead of the 10 guys you can chose from (eye roll). Why not Barton instead of Nat? He could have rigged up some old tech and send some morse code just as much as Nat. And the other is Nat as the Hulk whisperer which seems to only have happened because of the upcoming planned romantic subplot Whedon had in mind. Tony should have been in that spot considering that after the first Avengers movie, Bruce had moved into Stark Tower. We even had an IM3 after credits scene of Tony and Bruce. Nat was off working for SHIELD (see Winter Soldier). So the (established) bonding happened between Tony and Bruce while Nat and Bruce and the whisperer part came literally out of nowhere (what with her being busy working far away from Bruce) and was done purely to service a romance subplot.

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I have no problem with him being sexist or making sexist comments. It's more with the intensity of of that particular comment. Calling someone a whore/bitch and those sorts of things is IMO a different universe than using the c-word, and "quim" is an old-fashioned version of the c-word.

My question is then, do we ever have an instance where specific male slurs are used in the MCU? I seriously don't remember if we ever did. Did Loki ever use one for a male character? And I'm not talking about words that aren't gender specific like idiot, moron, a-hole or the likes. Anything on the level of what Widow or Gamora had thrown at them?

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I had no problem with Loki's comment.  That scene was two master manipulators poking at each other in order to get a reaction.  Both of them were hurling insults and mixing lies into truth to further their own goals.  The line was supposed to be offensive.  Loki was trying to get under Natasha's skin.  

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5 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Alternately, Natasha had an almost identical conversation with Steve in The Winter Soldier, and as far as I know without drawing the ire of a certain faction of shippers, which is an entirely different subject. If Nat had mentioned the 'graduation ceremony' to Cap in any context, would that be as problematic? Because I still have the feeling that if the Bruce/Natasha pairing had been as popular as the one between her and Steve, it wouldn't even be a blip on anyone's radar. The pity is that the collective We lean harder when it's something We already didn't like.

I actually did like that pairing a whole bunch, (especially as I was always a Steve/Peggy shipper) so I can’t speak for others, but I wanted Bruce and Natasha to be all kinds of cute and interesting. But instead it was a painful mess, and that was just the writing.

It wasn’t the mentioning of the graduation ceremony anyway, it was how she seemed to think that it had devalued her. It was a horrible moment and a horrible message, for a fantastic, heroic woman like that to think that her sterilisation meant that she should be seen as less important or worthy in any way.

She was putting infertility in the same bracket as being an out of control giant green rage monster. It was frankly weird and even perhaps kind of insulting to both characters. It only made any sense if viewed through the lens that there is something fundamentally wrong with women who put career (ok, in this case not a good career) ahead of becoming a traditional birth mother. And do we really think that graduation from the Red Room is going to turn out to be a totally free choice where one can simply walk away? So the only other way to look at it is that this was imposed on her. Neither option belongs in the same bracket as ‘monster’.

And then it was obviously even weirder considering that Natasha and/or Bruce could have found other ways to have a kid, if they had really wanted to. But at that time clearly neither of them did. After all, this is a universe with robots, aliens and wizards. I mean, the whole rage monster thing might be a sticking point, but you have to think someone could have got them on a list somewhere. So why was this conversation even in the script? Why would Bruce even mention that Natasha would definitely want kids? 

Imagine if last episode, we’d had a scene where Bucky told Sarah that he would always be a monster because he has one arm? Who would ever want to watch that? What kind of terrible message would that send out to the audience about how even heroes view disability? But despite the fact that he is also an ex-assassin whose body was altered to make him ‘efficient’, no-one would ever write that scene. At least, I hope not. 

Such bad writing.

Edited by Lebanna
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3 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Imagine if last episode, we’d had a scene where Bucky told Sarah that he would always be a monster because he has one arm? Who would ever want to watch that? What kind of terrible message would that send out to the audience about how even heroes view disability? 

Betting Senator Dickhead would classify the Wakandan arm an enhancement so VA disability benefits could be cancelled retroactively...

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On 4/19/2021 at 4:21 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Is this the first case of parent and child both appearing in the MCU?

I'm not aware of any other parent-child acting duos in the MCU, but MCU directors have cast their siblings and children in MCU movies....

  • Sean Gunn (played Kraglin in Guardians of the Galaxy movies) - brother of director James Gunn
  • Ava Russo (played Lila, daughter of Clint Barton in Endgame) - daughter of director Joe Russo
  • Sophia Russo (played teen girl in Civil War and memorial wall visitor in Endgame) - daughter of director Joe Russo
  • Angela Russo-Otstot (played Garcia* in Winter Soldier) - sister of directors Joe and Anthony Russo

(* One of the military vets attending Sam Wilson's group counseling sessions)

The Russos also cast quite a few relatives and friends as background players in Winter Soldier:

Edited by tv echo
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5 hours ago, tv echo said:

I'm not aware of any other parent-child acting duos in the MCU, but MCU directors have cast their siblings and children in MCU movies....

  • Sean Gunn (played Kraglin in Guardians of the Galaxy movies) - brother of director James Gunn
  • Ava Russo (played Lila, daughter of Clint Barton in Endgame) - daughter of director Joe Russo
  • Sophia Russo (played teen girl in Civil War and memorial wall visitor in Endgame) - daughter of director Joe Russo
  • Angela Russo-Otstot (played Garcia* in Winter Soldier) - sister of directors Joe and Anthony Russo

(* One of the military vets attending Sam Wilson's group counseling sessions)

The Russos also cast quite a few relatives and friends as background players in Winter Soldier:

One of the perks of shooting a movie in your hometown is the ability to use your friends and family as extras.  

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On 4/20/2021 at 8:51 PM, Lebanna said:

She was putting infertility in the same bracket as being an out of control giant green rage monster. It was frankly weird and even perhaps kind of insulting to both characters. It only made any sense if viewed through the lens that there is something fundamentally wrong with women who put career (ok, in this case not a good career) ahead of becoming a traditional birth mother. And do we really think that graduation from the Red Room is going to turn out to be a totally free choice where one can simply walk away? So the only other way to look at it is that this was imposed on her. Neither option belongs in the same bracket as ‘monster’.

All this! It was also weird that there was so much emphasis on her ability to have children when it has been established that Bruce (who is, btw, nearly old enough to be her father) can't even have sex without hulking out? One would think that the fact that any relationship between would have to be purely emotional and not physical would be a bigger hurdle than her ability to have children. 

But honestly, everything they did to the two characters in the movie was a disservice to both of them. On the one side, there is Natasha. Why does she have to be the team mother/love interest/damsel in distress? Why can't her arc be about wanting to be a hero, but always being forced to make the hard decisions in the end (in this case betraying Bruce by forcing him to Hulk out against his will). 

And didn't they realise that the betrayal would be so much bigger if Natasha had done it as an Avenger to another Avenger first and foremost? That Bruce being worried about Hulking out and then Tony's "security measure" fails followed by Natasha forcing him to do something he doesn't want would make for a way better set-up of him vanishing? Especially considering that he helped to create yet another Monster in Ultron.

Auntie  Natasha is way more interesting than Love interest Natasha. And Bruce is way more interesting in his struggle with himself.

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Everything wrong about Bruce and Natasha could have easily been redeemed if there was a scene of her punching Ross in the face with a “That was for Bruce.”

What? Don’t tell me I’m the only one who would have loved that!

Edited by Spartan Girl

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I will never accept anyone for Bruce except Betty. That's right, I said it. Betty.

The fact that they cut her out from the MCU (maybe they didn't have rights?) just pisses me off.

And I certainly am not defending Whedon, but I had read, when the movie came out (that would be Age of Ultron), that the reason Black Widow disappeared for a lot of it was because Scarlett Johansson was pregnant in real life? Not that he couldn't have found a way to not hide her away.

The best portrayal of her character--for me--was in, yes, Captain America: The Winter Soldier. And boy was there oozing chemistry with her and Chris.

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19 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I will never accept anyone for Bruce except Betty. That's right, I said it. Betty.

Just make sure it is not the current MCU Betty Brant. She just finished high school...  

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1 hour ago, swanpride said:

But honestly, everything they did to the two characters in the movie was a disservice to both of them.

Especially that crappy fake "what's a dame like you doing in a place like this"  dialogue they had at the bar during the party. I guess was supposed to be some kind of Humphrey Bogart thing but it was so stupid.

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1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I will never accept anyone for Bruce except Betty. That's right, I said it. Betty.

The fact that they cut her out from the MCU (maybe they didn't have rights?) just pisses me off.

Agreed. If we have to endure Ross, at least have Betty around so she can tell him what a piece of shit he is! 

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8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

The best portrayal of her character--for me--was in, yes, Captain America: The Winter Soldier. And boy was there oozing chemistry with her and Chris.

That's the thing - Nat should be oozing with chemistry with everyone. She's a gorgeous spy who always used her sexuality to her advantage. There's a reason she's called the Black Widow, after all.

And the chemistry was there with Steve, and with Tony in Iron Man 2 - with one it was natural, with the other she was putting on an act - but with Bruce there was nothing. A slight awkwardness that Scarlett Johansson brought to scenes where Ruffalo was giving her nothing and both of them seem to have found it a really weird idea.

There's also a creepy undertone of, 'he nearly killed me and I was terrified of him, but he's actually really sweet.' Yes, Banner is a sweet guy, but the most significant scene they shared in the first Avengers movie was one where Natasha was literally running for her life from him. I know Whedon has a thing for romances built on abuse, but he could have left this one alone.

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8 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

And the chemistry was there with Steve

Sam Wilson did not live in a mansion...both of them had to shower and get changed in close quarters.

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I always shipped Natasha with Sam. Here, I said it. They had one short scene together, and it was sizzling with sexual tension to a degree, that in my mind they would have been perfect for each other. 

But personal shipping aside, if they had to limit the workload of the actress, the obvious solution would have been to have Black Widow going undercover in Sokovia. That's her wheelhouse after all. 

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After giving all of Sharon Carter’s crucial roles in the comics to ScarJo Black Widow, Maria Hill, and even Peggy, the MCU turns her into a villain to justify the Russos writing her out to appease the whole stupid kiss fiasco.

Excuse me...

200.gif

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I've admitted that I don't care much for the actress, but the character of Sharon Carter? Yeah, I'm not buying it. Doesn't seem to fit with her previous actions and right now doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe she is deep deep undercover. 

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55 minutes ago, festivus said:

I've admitted that I don't care much for the actress, but the character of Sharon Carter? Yeah, I'm not buying it. Doesn't seem to fit with her previous actions and right now doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe she is deep deep undercover. 

I would dearly love to believe that, but I’ve been burned too many times by the MCU where Sharon has been concerned.

What pisses me off is this wasn’t good writing at all, it was shock value. There were other possibilities for Power Broker’s identity that made more sense. Val/Madame Hydra was RIGHT THERE. Hell, Dickhead Ross would have been more sense since he’s always done shady evil shit and always sheds credibility like the skin off a snake.

But no. They picked Sharon because they’d rather do that than give her a decent role. And they completely bamboozled us by hyping up her return to the MCU and advertising it like she, Sam, and Bucky were going to be the new Team Cap.

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4 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

After giving all of Sharon Carter’s crucial roles in the comics to ScarJo Black Widow, Maria Hill, and even Peggy, the MCU turns her into a villain to justify the Russos writing her out to appease the whole stupid kiss fiasco.

Excuse me...

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They'd have been better off not bringing her back at all. I like the Sharon from the comics, and this version just isn't doing it for me. A gangster? So much for the principles she had instilled in her by her great aunt.

I do like the MCU's willingness to just change stories and characters, and not feel overly beholden to comic book canon (something that has really hurt a lot of other comic book adaptations), but this wasn't a good move. And really, I'm not that interested in what she's planning. EVC isn't compelling enough, and this version of Sharon isn't compelling enough.

Especially not when they've given us a taste of Julia Louis-Dreyfus chomping the scenery as a dastardly villain. Give me that. Give me her and the Thunderbolts - Zemo coerced into being part of the team, along with a bunch of other Raft inmates, Walker leading it, sure he's doing his country's bidding again.

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Don't know if this goes here, but I'm seeing a lot of assumptions on social media that Sam/the New Captain America will be the leader of the new Avengers just like the old Cap was.  Maybe that will happen (was that the case in the comics?), but it bothers me a bit because it seems like most of the new Avengers will be women, like Wanda, Monica, new Black Widow, She-Hulk, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, possibly Shuri as the new Black Panther, etc.  I actually saw Monica Rambeau as the potential new leader of the Avengers.  Captain America can still be a valuable member of the team without being the leader. 

Edited by Brn2bwild
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This isn't the first time that the story and character I thought I was watching, turned out not to be the case. I'm befuddled by Sharon right now but I'm not full on angry because I don't care for the actress. I am interested in what Val is up to though.

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Everything of note that happens to Sharon Carter happens off screen. I’ve never read the comics, so I have no preconception of what Sharon is supposed to be. Her introduction was fine in CA:TWS. Making Natasha was the female lead was the right call as far as I’m concerned, and I’m sure it sucked for the actress to have her role reduced so significantly, but she was a solid supporting player. 

She again had very little to do in Civil War, but everything we did see was that she was a moral person and her actions were driven by doing what she thought was right.

But now she’s a villain? Yes, being on the run and forgotten about can change a person, but as a viewer it is wholly inconsistent with what we had seen of her previously. I can’t even really call it all tell and no show because they barely even tried to justify it with dialogue.

I feel for people who would’ve preferred a more comics-like Sharon. I wish they would at least stop under writing her and give her meaningful characterization and motives.

As it is, they’ve given me so little reason to invest in her, that I don’t even care she’s a villain now. 

 

Edited by Gin and Tonic
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54 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

I actually saw Monica Rambeau as the potential new leader of the Avengers.

Well she was for a while in the comics. But Monica is too new to be leading the Avengers.

Also her complete and utter lack of empathy, morality and ethics should immediately exclude her from leading anyone. I'd rather not see her again because I'm not in the mood to hear her excuse mental slavery, torture and suffering again. And having only sympathy for the villain and letting the villain go. The MCU seems to be heading into a territory where the 'heroes' are actually villains but the writers completely fail to recognize it. Or bad deeds get excused and everyone is friends again just because they have a certain path for a character in mind (see also John Walker in the last Falcon/Winter Soldier episode).

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1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

I would dearly love to believe that, but I’ve been burned too many times by the MCU where Sharon has been concerned.

What pisses me off is this wasn’t good writing at all, it was shock value. There were other possibilities for Power Broker’s identity that made more sense. Val/Madame Hydra was RIGHT THERE. Hell, Dickhead Ross would have been more sense since he’s always done shady evil shit and always sheds credibility like the skin off a snake.

But no. They picked Sharon because they’d rather do that than give her a decent role. And they completely bamboozled us by hyping up her return to the MCU and advertising it like she, Sam, and Bucky were going to be the new Team Cap.

Same. I feel like a fool for believing Kari and Malcolm when they said they brought her back to honor her character. I was like, yes, they’re righting the wrongs and then I got sucker punched. 
 

I’m too exhausted to be curious about her plan or when she’ll even show up again. I almost wish she’d be forgotten again but they didn’t make this move to not have her show up at some point.
 

Once again they’ve done nothing to protect EVC from all the hate from fans. I feel bad for her as she responds with graciousness every time. 

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I personally can't wait to see Monica again in Captain Marvel. I don't get a lack of empathy, morality and ethics from her. That woman literally pushed Wanda's grief. She knew if Wanda was the problem, Wanda was their solution. I think Monica could make a great team leader but we do need more of her first.

And Right now Sam feels small screen Captain America. In some ways I think his story could and should have been on the big screen but dealing with what a superhero that represents what America today means has a smaller impact than dealing with that related to WWll. It's meant more for a US audience and tv is best for that. And I also wish that Isaiah's story was bigger. Meaning he should have the tv show and Sam deserved a movie. In Many ways America has improved in race related ways but in other ways there is just so much history that makes real improvements seemingly impossible and we might have to completely implode to feel we are all on equal ground.

I think Sam being front and centered as Captain America on the big screen is needed. But he hasn't reached the point that people see him leading the Avengers. Black Panther did that for t'challa and we spent less time with him. His movie was great but it was also a movie. I feel like Sam & Bucky still seem like second tier Avengers. Maybe a second season would help with that. I would enjoy it. 

I love EVC and I wish that this show did her character justice. I can see how they could easily bring her back from this point but I'm sad for her. Not just because she's a Villain but because most of her development happened off screen. 

Edited by tarotx · Reason: I suck at words, grammar, and spelling...
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22 minutes ago, tarotx said:

I personally can't wait to see Monica again in Captain Marvel. I don't get a lack of empathy, morality and ethics from her. That woman literally pushed Wanda's grief. She knew if Wanda was the problem, Wanda was their solution. I think Monica could make a great team leader but we do need more of her first.

 

I need to see Monica and Sam team up on something.  Both of them seem to be cut from the same cloth, and I want to see them use their soft skills to solve the world's problems instead of always fighting.  

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Apropos of nothing, I understand that there was a comic book miniseries or version of the Avengers that had a bunch of Black heroes team up. Was it any good?

Would it be too much to hope that there might be a MCU version that would pair Monica, Sam, Rhodey, Luke Cage and/or others?

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3 hours ago, Emma said:

Same. I feel like a fool for believing Kari and Malcolm when they said they brought her back to honor her character. I was like, yes, they’re righting the wrongs and then I got sucker punched. 
 

I’m too exhausted to be curious about her plan or when she’ll even show up again. I almost wish she’d be forgotten again but they didn’t make this move to not have her show up at some point.
 

Once again they’ve done nothing to protect EVC from all the hate from fans. I feel bad for her as she responds with graciousness every time. 

Seriously. I feel like this was just to excuse to pander to all the Stucky stans and everyone else that hated her just for existing in the MCU. And that’s what bothers me most about all this.

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3 hours ago, tarotx said:

I personally can't wait to see Monica again in Captain Marvel. I don't get a lack of empathy, morality and ethics from her. That woman literally pushed Wanda's grief. She knew if Wanda was the problem, Wanda was their solution. I think Monica could make a great team leader but we do need more of her first.

Not once did Monica show any empathy for the VICTIMS and that's why I don't give a damn about her. When someone rightly points out Wanda is enslaving thousands of people, her response is 'it could have been thousands more'. Are you kidding me? This included children and possibly babies lets not forget. Those people were so badly tortured that they said 'if you won't let us go Wanda then please kill us' and Monica is like 'oh Wanda you sacrificed so much'. What with the what? And to top off this fabulous fiasco, Monica said she would have done the same to bring her mother back. Monica's lack of empathy (except for the VILLAIN), morals and ethics couldn't have been shown more clearly IMO.

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(replying to something from the ep 6 thread)

57 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Again, putting aside the stupidity of mustache-twirling within a few yards of the government building, she should realize that not having the SSS is a trillion-dollar loss.

This is one of the problems of the superhero genre not turning into sci-fi. To keep the world recognizably "like the real world, but with superheroes", you can't have logical technological developments spread worldwide. You can't have a SSS factory supplying the US, or Russia, or any major country. You can't have even arc reactors putting the existing energy business out of business.

So the MCU, like Marvel Comics before it, has to keep the SSS ultra scarce, and I guess sometimes that means characters who pursue or fund these kinds of incredible technological advancements have to do very dumb things to keep the genre working.

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As for as the Super Serum, I think people like Karli proved it isn't worth it. You can't guarantee that people are of the right mind when they take it. I get why a sponsor would decide it was too much. I don't know if that reason fits Sharon though. I think her story had to have been affected by Covid rewrites and scheduling. So much is missing or off screen. 

3 hours ago, Smad said:

Not once did Monica show any empathy for the VICTIMS and that's why I don't give a damn about her. When someone rightly points out Wanda is enslaving thousands of people, her response is 'it could have been thousands more'. Are you kidding me? This included children and possibly babies lets not forget. Those people were so badly tortured that they said 'if you won't let us go Wanda then please kill us' and Monica is like 'oh Wanda you sacrificed so much'. What with the what? And to top off this fabulous fiasco, Monica said she would have done the same to bring her mother back. Monica's lack of empathy (except for the VILLAIN), morals and ethics couldn't have been shown more clearly IMO.

WandaVision should probably be hashed out over in its forum but here goes. Sometimes the Villain deserves empathy.  Wanda was suffering from extreme dissociation where her previous unknown power of reality warping & creation made that fantasy not just seem or feel real but have elements that were real. Wanda might have created the problem but those boys and HexVision were real sentient beings. And everybody on the planet would bring back loved ones if they had the power to do so. The bringing loved ones back is a separate issue then Wanda casting out her grief and nightmares. While both were caused by Wanda's dissociation, it was two different powers of Wanda's acting up. The casting out was her telepathy.

The Townspeople gave testimony that they felt Wanda's grief and had her nightmares. Debra Jo Rupp's character wished to die because Wanda just went into a panic attack and it manifested as choking the townspeople. Monica also suffered Wanda's grief and had her nightmares. She understood that but she had time away from the suffering. If we saw Monica talk to the Townspeople she would have shown empathy for them as well since she was in the same boat. 

Imo.

Edited by tarotx
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2 hours ago, Smad said:

Not once did Monica show any empathy for the VICTIMS and that's why I don't give a damn about her. When someone rightly points out Wanda is enslaving thousands of people, her response is 'it could have been thousands more'. Are you kidding me? This included children and possibly babies lets not forget. Those people were so badly tortured that they said 'if you won't let us go Wanda then please kill us' and Monica is like 'oh Wanda you sacrificed so much'. What with the what? And to top off this fabulous fiasco, Monica said she would have done the same to bring her mother back. Monica's lack of empathy (except for the VILLAIN), morals and ethics couldn't have been shown more clearly IMO.

Her whole purpose in going after Wanda a second time (risking her life going through the Hex barrier again) was to try to stop her, bring the barrier down, and save the town.

To respond to what one commenter said, I think she and Sam would make a great team.

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