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Nomadland (2021)

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Based on the 2017 non-fiction book Nomadland: Surviving America in the Twenty-First Century by Jessica Bruder, Nomadland stars Frances McDormand (who also produced the film) as a woman who leaves her small town to travel around the American West. It also features David Strathairn, as well as real-life nomads Linda May, Swankie, Bob Wells, and Peter Spears (who also produced the film) as fictionalized versions of themselves.

Trailer:

Theatrical release and simultaneous digital release on Hulu: 2/19/21

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Golden Globe nominations:

BEST MOTION PICTURE – DRAMA

BEST DIRECTOR - Chloé Zhao

BEST ACTRESS – DRAMA - Frances McDormand

BEST SCREENPLAY - Chloé Zhao

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McDormand's a shoo-in for another Oscar nod. Her least showy performance and maybe her best.

This did not feel like a movie, this felt like voyeurism. I can't believe the next movie from Chloé Zhao is going to be a $200m sfx extravaganza.

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Critics' Choice Award nominations!

Best Picture

Best Director - Chloé Zhao

Best Actress - Frances McDormand

Best Adapted Screenplay - Chloé Zhao

Best Cinematography - Joshua James Richards

Best Editing - Chloé Zhao

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I recently watched this film and really liked it.  It’s very deep.  I find myself thinking about the story, the images, the messages......several days later.  That’s quite an impact.  I’m going to watch it again this weekend.  
 

I have a friend who followed the lifestyle depicted in this film.  She only did it for a few years though. Her son had a child and she wanted to be nearby to do grandma stuff while the kid was young.  

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I was laid off at age 52, and if I hadn't been lucky enough to land another job 7 months later (25% pay cut), this could have been me.

I'd like to show this movie to the Millennials and Gen Zers who crying that the Boomers are all spoiled, privileged people hoarding all the money, jobs and houses. 

Edited by Mulva
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It’s a beautiful film, and it conveys so much of “American”  cultural values including rugged individualism and wanderlust , but you also get the all encompassing  sense that the rug been pulled out from beneath so many of these senior baby boomer nomads, capitalism at its worse has betrayed them.

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I thought this was pretty good, but slow...so slow....and I don't mind slow, but I had to watch half of it and come back to it the next day

 

I'll be interested to see how many awards it wins tonight...if it wins at all

 

I think it could go either way.....I want to read the book it is based off of now

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1 hour ago, snickers said:

I thought this was pretty good, but slow...so slow....and I don't mind slow, but I had to watch half of it and come back to it the next day

I dozed off for about ten minutes in the middle.  I thought about rewinding to see what I missed but then I was like "meh.  Probably not much."

I thought the direction and cinematography were awesome.  I'd like to see Chloe Zhao win some hardware. Mcdormand was great per usual but I think the film seeming so voyeuristic hurts her.  I think subtlety and nuance can be very underrated but in this instance it would almost feel like giving an acting award to a documentary.  There were long stretches where it's just her living her life and it's hard to compare that against what others like Vanessa Kirby or Viola Davis were asked to do.

This is one of those movies that I appreciate way more than I like.

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On 2/28/2021 at 2:54 PM, kiddo82 said:

This is one of those movies that I appreciate way more than I like.

This is totally how i felt about Nomadland.....

 

Happy to see it did win some awards though, wasn't sure what was going to happen....

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I just watched the promo.  I would love to see this.  Of course Hulu is practically the only streaming service I don't have.   Maybe I can sign up for a free month as a "returning" subscriber.  I guess it will have to be the ad-free level though. 

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On 2/6/2021 at 5:19 PM, AimingforYoko said:

McDormand's a shoo-in for another Oscar nod. Her least showy performance and maybe her best.

Loved the movie, agree this should be McDormand's second Oscar.

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2 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Loved the movie, agree this should be McDormand's second Oscar.

Third. She's already won for Fargo and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri.

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I just watched this last night and really was moved by it.  The poignant combination of vast, beautiful scenery with the loneliness of Fern in her tiny van, and the feeling of sadness of the "nomads" trying to make the best of their precarious conditions, left such a very strong impression on me.  I agree that Frances McDormand's performance was so subtle, I totally believed her as Fern.  Everyone else in the cast was excellent as well.  I kind of knew it beforehand, but it was rather amazing to realize that most of the "nomads" were played so well by actual nomadic persons themselves.

So glad I was able to see this.

 

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A lot of Critics' Choice Award wins tonight!

Best Picture

Best Director - Chloé Zhao

Best Adapted Screenplay

Best Cinematography

 

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Producers Guild of America nomination!

Darryl F. Zanuck Award for Outstanding Producer of Theatrical Motion Pictures

“Borat Subsequent Moviefilm” (Amazon Studios)
Producers: Sacha Baron Cohen, Monica Levinson, Anthony Hines

“Judas and the Black Messiah” (Warner Bros)
Producers: Charles D. King, Ryan Coogler, Shaka King

“Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom” (Netflix)
Producers: Denzel Washington, Todd Black

“Mank” (Netflix)
Producers: Ceán Chaffin, Eric Roth, Douglas Urbanski

“Minari” (A24)
Producer: Christina Oh

“Nomadland” (Searchlight Pictures)
Producers: Mollye Asher, Dan Janvey, Frances McDormand, Peter Spears, Chloé Zhao

“One Night in Miami” (Amazon Studios)
Producers: Jess Wu Calder, Keith Calder, Jody Klein

“Promising Young Woman” (Focus Features)
Producers: Josey McNamara, Ben Browning, Ashley Fox, Emerald Fennell

“Sound of Metal” (Amazon Studios)
Producers: Bert Hamelinck, Sacha Ben Harroche

“The Trial of the Chicago 7” (Netflix)
Producers: Marc Platt, Stuart Besser

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BAFTA nominations!

LEADING ACTRESS
BUKKY BAKRAY Rocks
RADHA BLANK The Forty-Year-Old Version
VANESSA KIRBY Pieces of a Woman
FRANCES McDORMAND Nomadland
WUNMI MOSAKU His House
ALFRE WOODARD Clemency

BEST FILM
THE FATHER Philippe Carcassonne, Jean-Louis Livi, David Parfitt
THE MAURITANIAN TBC
NOMADLAND Mollye Asher, Dan Janvey, Frances McDormand, Peter Spears, Chloé Zhao
PROMISING YOUNG WOMAN Ben Browning, Emerald Fennell, Ashley Fox, Josey McNamara
THE TRIAL OF THE CHICAGO 7 Stuart Besser, Marc Platt

DIRECTOR
ANOTHER ROUND Thomas Vinterberg
BABYTEETH Shannon Murphy
MINARI Lee Isaac Chung
NOMADLAND Chloé Zhao
QUO VADIS, AIDA? Jasmila Žbanić
ROCKS Sarah Gavron

ADAPTED SCREENPLAY
THE DIG Moira Buffini
THE FATHER Christopher Hampton, Florian Zeller
THE MAURITANIAN Rory Haines, Sohrab Noshirvani, M.B. Traven
NOMADLAND Chloé Zhao
THE WHITE TIGER Ramin Bahrani

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo

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Directors Guild of America nomination!

Outstanding Directorial Achievement in Motion Pictures
Lee Isaac Chung, Minari (A24)
Emerald Fennell, Promising Young Woman (Focus Features)
David Fincher, Mank (Netflix)
Aaron Sorkin, The Trial of the Chicago 7 (Netflix)
Chloé Zhao, Nomadland (Searchlight Pictures)

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Frances McDormand definitely deserves her awards, she was really great in this. I almost felt uncomfortable watching her a few times, it was just so real I felt like I was intruding. This was a really lovely poignant film, you could really feel Fern's loneliness as well as the sense of connection and community between the nomad community. 

This is a movie I would like to see on the big screen one day, the scenery out west was so gorgeous. It reminded me a road trip I took through New Mexico and Arizona a few years ago. Its so sparse and beautiful. 

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This movie reminded me of Life of Pi. Beautifully made and acted movie, but somehow didn't become a favorite. Too slow-paced for me.

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Absolutely lovely. I’m married to a former Outward Bound instructor and almost all of our vacations have been to places in this movie. It really captures the wild beauty of America while not looking away from a whole underclass of people on the margins. As an RVer I’ve met these people and the movie did justice to them. 

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Oscar nominations!

Best Picture
“The Father”
“Judas and the Black Messiah”
“Mank”
“Minari”
“Nomadland”
“Promising Young Woman”
“Sound of Metal”
“The Trial of the Chicago 7″

Best Director
Thomas Vinterberg (“Another Round”)
David Fincher (“Mank”)
Lee Isaac Chung (“Minari”)
Chloé Zhao (“Nomadland”)
Emerald Fennell (“Promising Young Woman”)

Best Actress
Viola Davis (“Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom”)
Andra Day (“The United States vs. Billie Holiday”)
Vanessa Kirby (“Pieces of a Woman”)
Frances McDormand (“Nomadland”)
Carey Mulligan (“Promising Young Woman”)

Best Adapted Screenplay
Sacha Baron Cohen and Co-Writers (“Borat Subsequent Moviefilm”)
Florian Zeller and Christopher Hampton (“The Father”)
Chloé Zhao (“Nomadland”)
Kemp Powers (“One Night in Miami”)
Ramin Bahrani (“The White Tiger”)

Best Cinematography
Sean Bobbitt (“Judas and the Black Messiah”)
Erik Messerschmidt (“Mank”)
Dariusz Wolski (“News of the World”)
Joshua James Richards (“Nomadland”)
Phedon Papamichael (“The Trial of the Chicago 7”)

Best Film Editing
“The Father”
“Nomadland”
“Promising Young Woman”
“Sound of Metal”
“The Trial of the Chicago 7”

 

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Producers Guild of America award!

Darryl F. Zanuck Award for Outstanding Producer of Theatrical Motion Pictures:

“Nomadland” (Searchlight Pictures) – WINNER
Producers: Mollye Asher, Dan Janvey, Frances McDormand, Peter Spears, Chloé Zhao

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Does anyone know why Fern couldn’t keep working at one of the jobs that she liked?  Why did she have to keep moving?  She could have still lived in her camper and move around the area from time to time.  I didn’t understand.  They weren’t all seasonal jobs. 

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15 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Does anyone know why Fern couldn’t keep working at one of the jobs that she liked?  Why did she have to keep moving?  She could have still lived in her camper and move around the area from time to time.  I didn’t understand.  They weren’t all seasonal jobs. 

The sugar beet harvest is obviously seasonal, and the Amazon job is, too--Amazon hires extra people for the Christmas rush, and at some fulfillment centers, it recruits people in RVs and pays for their campsite for that period.  When the rush period is over, so is the job, and the free campsite. 

Working at Wall Drug isn't seasonal, but living in a van there year-round isn't an attractive prospect.  Being a camphost in an RV park often provides only the campsite and no actual pay, which can help defray expenses for retirees who are on social security or have a pension, but people without sources of income like that need cash in hand. 

Being a nomad is way for Fern and the others to survive, and not just an adventure.  I'm pretty sure none of them ever thought, "When I get into my 60s, I want to do backbreaking work, and live in a vehicle because that's all I can afford."  But then they do it, and might find that the challenges are surmountable, and that they don't mind (or might even enjoy) moving from place to place, and the freedom that is available if they're not completely broke at a given time.  Or it might be that they just convince themselves that they like it, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. 

But that could be a reason they might choose to continue to do this instead of getting a permanent job, or staying in one area.  Assuming they could get a permanent job--we saw Fern being told that there weren't any positions that she was suited for and she might consider retiring instead of continuing to work.  That's generally not the case with the jobs on the seasonal circuit--as long as your body can take it, you can work.

 

 

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4 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

The sugar beet harvest is obviously seasonal, and the Amazon job is, too--Amazon hires extra people for the Christmas rush, and at some fulfillment centers, it recruits people in RVs and pays for their campsite for that period.  When the rush period is over, so is the job, and the free campsite. 

Working at Wall Drug isn't seasonal, but living in a van there year-round isn't an attractive prospect.  Being a camphost in an RV park often provides only the campsite and no actual pay, which can help defray expenses for retirees who are on social security or have a pension, but people without sources of income like that need cash in hand. 

Being a nomad is way for Fern and the others to survive, and not just an adventure.  I'm pretty sure none of them ever thought, "When I get into my 60s, I want to do backbreaking work, and live in a vehicle because that's all I can afford."  But then they do it, and might find that the challenges are surmountable, and that they don't mind (or might even enjoy) moving from place to place, and the freedom that is available if they're not completely broke at a given time.  Or it might be that they just convince themselves that they like it, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. 

But that could be a reason they might choose to continue to do this instead of getting a permanent job, or staying in one area.  Assuming they could get a permanent job--we saw Fern being told that there weren't any positions that she was suited for and she might consider retiring instead of continuing to work.  That's generally not the case with the jobs on the seasonal circuit--as long as your body can take it, you can work.

 

 

Agree with all of this.   What I liked about the film was it showed that a lot of these nomads  are very resourceful, but grudgingly or not, were now focused in maintaining this lifestyle.    I thought it was telling that when Fern lists her work history, she’s not without skills ( did some teaching ) but it ‘s more the local economy has no opportunities open for her to hunker down financially in one spot.

The two opportunities the film shows  she has to get off the road, ie living with her sister or accepting her quasi boyfriend’s offer to move in with him in his son’s house, while not bad choices comfort wise, don’t really give Fern her own agency.   To me it’s plausible why she would turn them down.

Edited by caracas1914
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18 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

The two opportunities the film shows she has to get off the road, ie living with her sister or accepting her quasi boyfriend’s offer to move in with him in his son’s house, while not bad choices comfort wise, don’t really give Fern her own agency. To me it’s plausible why she would turn them down.

The only place we part company (although maybe it's just semantic) is I didn't feel it was a matter of "agency" that drove Fern, I felt it was her specific personality as someone more comfortable being alone than together--possibly because depression had settled over her for understandable reasons. (There must be people who are capable of being part of a settled community until some life trauma happens, like a death or a loss of that entire community--at which point they change forever.) Many people prize a sense of agency and are able to also value connection. Fern wasn't one of them, and the movie was a superb character study, in addition to all the other things it was.

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7 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

The only place we part company (although maybe it's just semantic) is I didn't feel it was a matter of "agency" that drove Fern, I felt it was her specific personality as someone more comfortable being alone than together--possibly because depression had settled over her for understandable reasons. (There must be people who are capable of being part of a settled community until some life trauma happens, like a death or a loss of that entire community--at which point they change forever.) Many people prize a sense of agency and are able to also value connection. Fern wasn't one of them, and the movie was a superb character study, in addition to all the other things it was.

I certainly agree with what you said, per her personality , that's why I almost added "at this point in her life" when opining why Fern turned away from both offers.  It's very nuanced;  she was dealing with grief still from her husband's death,  it's implied strongly she  and her sister are not particularly close (perceived POV of sis that Fern abandoned the family, etc) and TBH the David Straitharn character I deliberately called "quasi boyfriend" because the interest certainly seemed more on his part.   With agency I meant  it didn't seem that those two offers were her thought out choices, perhaps because of her personality they weren't' attractive to her,  and also more  like thrust on her by others who thought she needed them.  

However, she did seem to connect somewhat with others in the Nomad community.   I do think that the downturn economically in the company town that triggered her nomad existence, could have  been  the catalyst for being even more withdrawn, if it hadn't happened, I could certainly see Fern in her company house for years.   However she had the double whammy of her husband's death and displacement.  

So yes, you're right it was a great character study of an interesting person in Fern.

Edited by caracas1914
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On 3/29/2021 at 11:22 AM, Milburn Stone said:

The only place we part company (although maybe it's just semantic) is I didn't feel it was a matter of "agency" that drove Fern, I felt it was her specific personality as someone more comfortable being alone than together--possibly because depression had settled over her for understandable reasons. (There must be people who are capable of being part of a settled community until some life trauma happens, like a death or a loss of that entire community--at which point they change forever.) Many people prize a sense of agency and are able to also value connection. Fern wasn't one of them, and the movie was a superb character study, in addition to all the other things it was.

Agree. Fern could have moved in with someone in an actual house, she had options. But you can see from her personality that there is something going on there. I know someone that acts just like that, definite mental health issues. She didn’t have to be living like that.  also by the way, I kept dozing off, where  do these people shower? And how do they not freeze to death sleeping in a van on cold nights? Another big stain on the our country as far as capitalism,  help for those in need, etc.  

Did they mention  what happened after her husbands death that caused her to lose her home etc.?

Edited by chediavolo
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3 hours ago, chediavolo said:

Did they mention  what happened after her husbands death that caused her to lose her home etc.?

I don't think they said it, but it was implicit. The entire town basically ceased to exist, and that meant Fern could no longer work anywhere. Even if the mortgage was paid off, she'd still have to pay the property taxes, which, even if low, would still be money she didn't have. Here in Cook County, IL, the county seizes property of those who are in arrears in their tax bills. And there's no way she could have sold it and gotten out from under her debts that way, because there was no one left to buy it. One way or another (bank or county), the house would have been taken away from her.

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On 3/29/2021 at 11:22 AM, Milburn Stone said:

The only place we part company (although maybe it's just semantic) is I didn't feel it was a matter of "agency" that drove Fern, I felt it was her specific personality as someone more comfortable being alone than together--possibly because depression had settled over her for understandable reasons. (There must be people who are capable of being part of a settled community until some life trauma happens, like a death or a loss of that entire community--at which point they change forever.) Many people prize a sense of agency and are able to also value connection. Fern wasn't one of them, and the movie was a superb character study, in addition to all the other things it was.

I didn't see depression per se there, although I thought the loss of her husband was a shadow over everything. We don't learn much about him, but they obviously had a long marriage with no children, either because they didn't want them or they couldn't have them. They worked together and lived together. So I think he was her life partner and they were well suited and had a strong bond, and now when other people suggest that she live with them in a more conventional and secure arrangement than living out of her van, it doesn't have appeal for her. She's had that person to come home to and share space with. She's done that, and at least for now, she's done with that. There's a freedom to the way she lives now that makes the loss and realignment easier to deal with. Even though hers is a precarious way of living -- engine trouble, plummeting temperatures, or even a flat can be big setbacks -- it can also be rich and fulfilling. She can encounter other people and allow them into her life in a way that works for her.   

Much credit to Zhao for the fine natural performances of the actual itinerants around the pros, McDormand and Strathairn.

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On 4/13/2021 at 2:33 AM, Simon Boccanegra said:

I didn't see depression per se there, although I thought the loss of her husband was a shadow over everything. We don't learn much about him, but they obviously had a long marriage with no children, either because they didn't want them or they couldn't have them. They worked together and lived together. So I think he was her life partner and they were well suited and had a strong bond, and now when other people suggest that she live with them in a more conventional and secure arrangement than living out of her van, it doesn't have appeal for her. She's had that person to come home to and share space with. She's done that, and at least for now, she's done with that. There's a freedom to the way she lives now that makes the loss and realignment easier to deal with. Even though hers is a precarious way of living -- engine trouble, plummeting temperatures, or even a flat can be big setbacks -- it can also be rich and fulfilling. She can encounter other people and allow them into her life in a way that works for her.   

Much credit to Zhao for the fine natural performances of the actual itinerants around the pros, McDormand and Strathairn.

That's how I read it. At the end of the day, this was the life she wanted and what fulfilled her. She didn't want to be the widow living on the kindness of her sister. She also didn't want to play grandparent to kids that weren't hers with a guy that wasn't her husband. Maybe Fern will change her mind when she gets further into her 60's/starts to push 70 and it's impossible for her to physically handle the work that's being asked to her. (I can't even imagine what 2020 did to these vagabond migrants who probably couldn't even collect unemployment.) But for now, Fern feels un-tethered by her past as well as what people thinks she needs to have for her present, and that's rich and fulfilling to her.

Edited by methodwriter85
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Oscar wins!

DIRECTING: NOMADLAND - Chloé Zhao (she is the second female to win best director in Oscar history and the first woman of color to win best director!)

BEST PICTURE:  NOMADLAND - Frances McDormand, Peter Spears, Mollye Asher, Dan Janvey and Chloé Zhao, Producers

ACTRESS IN A LEADING ROLE: Frances McDormand

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo
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McDormandt was very animated.  What was wolf howling about?

I’m glad they got the recognition.  I was surprised they got all three of those, though. 

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On 4/12/2021 at 5:49 AM, chediavolo said:

Agree. Fern could have moved in with someone in an actual house, she had options. But you can see from her personality that there is something going on there. I know someone that acts just like that, definite mental health issues. She didn’t have to be living like that.  also by the way, I kept dozing off, where  do these people shower? And how do they not freeze to death sleeping in a van on cold nights? Another big stain on the our country as far as capitalism,  help for those in need, etc.  

Did they mention  what happened after her husbands death that caused her to lose her home etc.?

typically in 'company towns' the workers don't own the home.  they either rent it from the company, or its a worker benefit.

I didn't see Fern as having a mental health issue, some people do generally like their solitude.  she is shown enjoying being with people, but also being by herself.  clearly she lost her soulmate and found no reason to replace him.  in the visit with her sister, we hear that Fern has always been very independent and self-sufficient.  she obviously didn't want to live off of other people.  

As to showers, there are many campgrounds that have shower facilities.  at other times, I expect they use the sinks in restrooms to do some body washing, under their shirts and such with washcloths.  

Some people who renovate vans with living facilities put up paneling with insulation behind it.  some have money to install electricity to provide some heat.  but heat is why most nomads go south in the winter, where the weather is usually milder, and then have warm clothing/bedding.  and they go north during the summer months, where its cooler.  

I could see this movie encouraging more people to travel the western US.  the scenery was absolutely breathtaking.  Where was that one area that Fern was on the tour, but then went off by herself to walk along the rock formations?

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Where was that one area that Fern was on the tour, but then went off by herself to walk along the rock formations?

Where she worries for a moment she's lost, and then Dave calls out to her? That was Badlands National Park in South Dakota.

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Ah thank you.  I'll have to put that place on my list of places to visit.

57 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

Where she worries for a moment she's lost, and then Dave calls out to her? That was Badlands National Park in South Dakota.

 

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On 2/28/2021 at 2:54 PM, kiddo82 said:

This is one of those movies that I appreciate way more than I like.

I basically feel the same. I thought the cinematography was [i]amazing[/i] and Frances gave her usual top notch performance.

That being said, this movie was not an enjoyable experience for me and I would certainly never watch it again. For me a really good movie has a rewatchability factor and there's no way that I'd take time out of my life to watch this story again. 

Typically with a best picture winner I find myself wanting to revisit the film but the last few winners haven't made me feel that way. The Shape of Water was probably the last best picture winner that really did it for me.

On 3/28/2021 at 4:46 PM, caracas1914 said:

The two opportunities the film shows  she has to get off the road, ie living with her sister or accepting her quasi boyfriend’s offer to move in with him in his son’s house, while not bad choices comfort wise, don’t really give Fern her own agency.   To me it’s plausible why she would turn them down.

I could just about believe that she'd turn down living with the sister. They don't seem close and there are other issues there. Fair enough. I'm less understanding of why she wouldn't at least give it a try to live in the guest house with the quasi boyfriend. If it doesn't work out, she can go back on the road. If it does work out then she has a little more security and comfort than she previously had. I didn't see any indication that she'd lose her freedom if she gave this living arrangement a chance. 

Then again, she's obviously as stubborn as they come. Like not taking the opportunity to sleep in the church that woman told her about knowing that it would be a colder night than usual. Seeing a character make choice after choice like this was not fun to watch. 

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12 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I I could just about believe that she'd turn down living with the sister. They don't seem close and there are other issues there. Fair enough. I'm less understanding of why she wouldn't at least give it a try to live in the guest house with the quasi boyfriend. If it doesn't work out, she can go back on the road. If it does work out then she has a little more security and comfort than she previously had. I didn't see any indication that she'd lose her freedom if she gave this living arrangement a chance. 

That granny unit near the coastline to most of us would have looked sweet.

However, the character had a whole boatload of issues she was sorting through.  My spin was that she was wary of the emotional commitment to the quasi boyfriend, as in she still was in a period of grieving/loss per her deceased husband. 

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Kudos for the wins, although I'm surprised Frances McDormand won. She had a recent win and it was her second one at that. It's extremely hard to get 3 acting Oscar wins. She joins Meryl Streep and Katherine Hepburn. Good for her.

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10 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

She joins Meryl Streep and Katherine Hepburn. Good for her.

And she joins Katherine Hepburn and Daniel Day-Lewis as the only people to have three wins in the lead category. (Katherine has 4, of course)

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