S01.E05: On A Very Special Episode...

[paigow]

1 minute ago, mrspidey said:

No, this is the actor who played the X-Men version of Pietro in the X-Men movies and it is quite possible that this is actually that Pietro and not just the actor. 

And just to compound the confusion, Wanda was never a character in that franchise. Also that version of Pietro was an American teenage slacker, not a Sokovian refugee.

[Chaos Theory]

I honestly don’t mind if they make Wanda a villain.  Some of my favorite characters in all of tv are villains.  I always love to say some of my favorite stories are good downward  spirals.   When they are written well they are some of the most compelling stories and Wanda Romanoff always had a compelling story.  And yes  Geraldine was right Wanda could have taken Thanos out on her own if he hadn’t initiated a blitz.

 

 I am also guessing Military guy who keeps  trying to kill her did something to her before the show started that was really bad that sent her over the edge.   Maybe tried to take her kids in the first place.

 

She recast Pietro.  
 

Hi Evan Peters.  

Edited February 7, 2021 by Chaos Theory

[FnkyChkn34]

5 minutes ago, paigow said:

And just to compound the confusion, Wanda was never a character in that franchise. Also that version of Pietro was an American teenage slacker, not a Sokovian refugee.

I suppose I needed to have seen all of the X-Men movies too, since this "big reveal" went straight over my head.  I don't recognize this guy at all, but I do appreciate that Darcy provided the quick explanation.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Wow, the shit finally hit the fan. Between Wanda telling everyone to back off (and who can blame her after they tried to blow her up?), Vision realizing what has been going on, and the Vision/Wanda argument about it, things are getting serious.

Loved the Family Ties inspired opening credits!

[swanpride]

Is more an easter egg than anything else I guess. I am also pretty sure that Marvel isn't keen on bringing Quicksilver back to the MCU for now. Speedsters without any limitations are always a problem. Hell, Speedsters WITH limitations are already hard to write for.

[Azgard12]

3 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Now, if any of those characters from Fox (Deadpool being the exception) stick around as permanent fixtures in the MCU? That I'm definitely not okay with. 

I've thought for a long while that's the point of WandaVision.

But since the X-Men films had basically reached the end of their life with FOX, I'm happy to see them cherry-picking some of the better actors/characters. For example... I think Beast, Cyclops, and Storm were great (and can age alongside the franchise).  Fassbender and McAvoy are excellent as well.  But the writing...

  

4 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Is more an easter egg than anything else I guess. I am also pretty sure that Marvel isn't keen on bringing Quicksilver back to the MCU for now. Speedsters without any limitations are always a problem. Hell, Speedsters WITH limitations are already hard to write for.

It very likely isn't just an easter egg. 

Spoiler

Quicksilver is likely to be a main character in one of the upcoming films and if one speedster wasn't enough, young Tommy is probably going to have that superpower as well.

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Azgard12

[QuantumMechanic]

Are supposed to take anything from the sitcom being 16:9?  80s (and 90s) TV were of course 4:3.  But the 16:9 was in turn different from the 2.8:1 "real world".  Was it just that the producers (our world producers, not the sitcom producers 🙂 ) were just tired of being limited to 4:3 shots for the scenes they wanted to film? Was our "eye" supposed to be inside the sitcom this time rather than watching the sitcom broadcast?  I guess so?

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Are supposed to take anything from the sitcom being 16:9?  80s (and 90s) TV were of course 4:3.  But the 16:9 was in turn different from the 2.8:1 "real world".  Was it just that the producers (our world producers, not the sitcom producers 🙂 ) were just tired of being limited to 4:3 shots for the scenes they wanted to film? Was our "eye" supposed to be inside the sitcom this time rather than watching the sitcom broadcast?  I guess so?

I agree; maybe since we as the audience all have a better understanding of what is happening, we are now inside the sitcom.

[Capricasix]

The kitchen and living room were almost a mirror image of those sets in Family Ties.

[VCRTracking]

I was spoiled but still had an "Oh my god!" reaction to the ending.

"She recast Pietro?" LOL!

The series so far has been a showcase for Elizabeth Olsen but Paul Bettany really killed it this episode.

I grew up in the 80s and they got the family sitcom feel of that era so right. 

[swanpride]

I was a little bit surprised that they didn't lean in more on the Full House references to be honest...maybe next episode. There is no telling when they will jump in the 90s.

[VCRTracking]

Same.

 

[tennisgurl]

Oh shit you guys, Wanda just straight up punched a hole in the multiverse and pulled out a new Pietro to recast! This show is so wild, I need to watch it at least three times to get everything, and to fully appreciate all of the details. Even if this is just a casting joke (which is what I am guessing) I love that they brought in Evan Peters to play re-casted Pietro, that was so great that I literally shrieked out loud. That's what this show does to me!

Wanda might be controlling some things now, out of her immense grief, but I really don't think that she is the one who is really pulling the strings here. I believe her when she said that she doesn't know how this started, and she did seem to actually be confused at times about what is going on, at least at first. She might be going along with it, but I don't think she started this, I think someone is manipulating her. She definitely looked shocked to see "Pietro" showing up. I think she is deeply damaged and grief stricken and that's making her go along with something that is clearly wrong, but I am sure there is more going on. We saw her at the end of Endgame, and while she was obviously hurting and grieving, while she was talking to Clint at the funeral she seemed more or less alright, not on the verge of having a total meltdown and taking over a town to do a sitcom LARP with her boyfriends corpse. She might have found out that SWORD was experimenting on Visions body and went to go get it, understandably pissed at these people playing mad scientist with her boyfriends corpse against his wishes, and that was what led to this, but I feel like there has to be more. 

I am still thinking that Agnes knows way more than she is letting on. She always seems to be showing up to drive plots, like helping with the dinner in the first episode, getting Wanda to join the parents group in the second, she was replaced by Monica in the third episode, but then this week she was pushing the dog narrative, bringing in the dog house and then her bushes apparently killed him, which lead to the boys asking Wanda to bring the dig back, because these kids haven't seen pet cemetery yet. I also thought it was interesting that, when Vision actually got through to "Norm" for a second, he said it was "her" in his head and in charge of everything. Not "Wanda" or "Your wife" it was "her", and I think that they are being vague about that for a reason. I am also so glad that Vision brought up something that I have asking since day one...where are the children? There are no kids in this suburban happy place, and there are schools and playgrounds, but no little kids. 

The 80s sitcom vibes were really strong, it felt very Growing Pains mixed with Full House, and not just because of the obvious connection between Full House and Elizabeth Olson (although that does make it even funnier to me) with the opening credits being the most obvious. I love that, while this show is getting creepier and more dramatic, we are still getting some good jokes, especially Vision in the pictures at the beginning, with tiny Vision as a baby and his obviously adult head. So ridiculous and I love it. 

So much to chew on, this show is like a four course meal. 

[FnkyChkn34]

13 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Wanda might be controlling some things now, out of her immense grief, but I really don't think that she is the one who is really pulling the strings here. I believe her when she said that she doesn't know how this started, and she did seem to actually be confused at times about what is going on, at least at first. She might be going along with it, but I don't think she started this, I think someone is manipulating her. She definitely looked shocked to see "Pietro" showing up. I think she is deeply damaged and grief stricken and that's making her go along with something that is clearly wrong, but I am sure there is more going on. We saw her at the end of Endgame, and while she was obviously hurting and grieving, while she was talking to Clint at the funeral she seemed more or less alright, not on the verge of having a total meltdown and taking over a town to do a sitcom LARP with her boyfriends corpse. She might have found out that SWORD was experimenting on Visions body and went to go get it, understandably pissed at these people playing mad scientist with her boyfriends corpse against his wishes, and that was what led to this, but I feel like there has to be more. 

I agree with your whole post (except I didn't know who that actor was), but especially this paragraph.  Are we seeing what a mental break looks like in someone who has telepathic and matter altering abilities?  She may have gone to find Vision's body, but something happened to her there to cause her to lose sanity or her control on reality, so someone else is behind all of this.  That's my guess at least.

Question though - SWORD or whomever had Vision's body for 5 years?  He died in Infinity War, didn't he?

[swanpride]

Frankly, I am pretty sure that Wanda was the one who pulled Monica in and controlled her and she has some level of control over Vision. But I don't think that she is doing the same thing to everyone else. Wanda is right, those are way too many people to handle for one person, even one as powerful as Wanda is. I think that she pulled Monica in because on some level she knew that she needed help, but then she wanted to lose herself in her fantasy, hence she pushed Monica away again. But if there is someone who can reach her, it is most likely Monica (at least as long as Clint isn't around).

That would also explain Agnes actions in episode 3. She was basically p... that Monica slid into the position as Wanda's main influencer. As soon as Monica was gone, she picked up her usual role again. Btw, did they turn her amulet into an ear clip this time? I had a hard time to really see it....

[Keywestclubkid]

So she cant bring the dead back to life but she can pull people from different realities?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

8 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Question though - SWORD or whomever had Vision's body for 5 years?  He died in Infinity War, didn't he?

Yes, Vision was killed in IW. I would have to go back and rewatch the episode, though, because I can't remember if Hayward said how long SWORD had been in possession of the body, only that Wanda "stormed" the lab and stole it. That guy's not anywhere close to reliable, though, so even with the footage of her coming in and knocking everyone out, there's something else going on. My girl is not a terrorist, you jackhole.

[paigow]

12 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Question though - SWORD or whomever had Vision's body for 5 years?  He died in Infinity War, didn't he?

Yes. Very likely that Cap or Banner brought the body to SHIELD, but since Fury and Hill were dead, SWORD took custody.

4 minutes ago, Keywestclubkid said:

So she cant bring the dead back to life but she can pull people from different realities?

Somebody else pulled FOX!Pietro over... she has probably opened several portals though.

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 minutes ago, Keywestclubkid said:

So she cant bring the dead back to life but she can pull people from different realities?

As always, there are lots of possibiliites. Among them:

1. Wanda deliberately or subconsciously brought Pietro back from the dead, for some reason made it not quite her Pietro, and is faking that she has no involvement in it.

2  Wanda deliberately or subconsciously searched the multiverse and brought a Pietro

3. An external force found X-Universe Pietro and brought him to Westview

For my money, Theory 3 best fits the facts as we see them. Pietro's appearance interrupted the Vision-Wanda fight and got things back to the sitcom style way of things. 

[tennisgurl]

15 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Question though - SWORD or whomever had Vision's body for 5 years?  He died in Infinity War, didn't he?

He died in Infinity War, so it would be five years since he died. Not sure if Sword has him the whole time though, that could be more recent, although its certainly possible they had him the whole time too. They might have originally given him to SHIELD, but SWORD might have gotten him later. I was raising an eyebrow at Hayward a few times last week, but now I definitely think the guys a dick. He might be right to be concerned about Wanda apparently holding this town hostage, and it does look like Wanda is totally behind this (even if I don't think she is completely in control) but him trying to not only blow her up, but lie to Monica about it, was not only shitty, but unimaginably stupid. This is a woman who almost took down Thanos, and he was going to try and kill her with a bomb from the 80s? Not to mention that there could be serious collateral damage, considering the town is full of innocent civilians. Plus, as much as he tried to frame Wanda as the bad guy in taking Visions body, its clear that SWORD was doing some nasty stuff to his body that he would have never wanted. 

I am really curious about Monica's reaction to the mention of Carol, she seemed very salty when Jimmy and Darcy were talking about her, like she didn't even want to think about her, despite them being previously so close. I wonder if Carol never came back to Earth to visit when Monica's mom got cancer, and she never even came back when her mom died a few years ago, and Monica is bitter and feels like Carol abandoned her mom while she was dying? 

[FnkyChkn34]

9 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I am really curious about Monica's reaction to the mention of Carol, she seemed very salty when Jimmy and Darcy were talking about her, like she didn't even want to think about her, despite them being previously so close. I wonder if Carol never came back to Earth to visit when Monica's mom got cancer, and she never even came back when her mom died a few years ago, and Monica is bitter and feels like Carol abandoned her mom while she was dying? 

Seeing as how I'm not a Carol/Captain Marvel fan, I can definitely see her ignoring Monica most of her life.  When she finally showed up, Rhodey had to ask "where have you been?" and her reply was basically "anywhere but Earth."  I think we could infer that she wasn't around.

Edited February 5, 2021 by FnkyChkn34
fixed typo

[Oreo2234]

Quote

 also thought it was interesting that, when Vision actually got through to "Norm" for a second, he said it was "her" in his head and in charge of everything. Not "Wanda" or "Your wife" it was "her", and I think that they are being vague about that for a reason. 

That's what I was thinking. The woman that was in his head might not have been Wanda. 

Quote

I am really curious about Monica's reaction to the mention of Carol, she seemed very salty when Jimmy and Darcy were talking about her, like she didn't even want to think about her, despite them being previously so close. I wonder if Carol never came back to Earth to visit when Monica's mom got cancer, and she never even came back when her mom died a few years ago, and Monica is bitter and feels like Carol abandoned her mom while she was dying? 

It did seem like she might be angry at Carol. I wonder if we will find out more about that in WandaVision or if it's something that will be addressed in some future film. 

[swanpride]

Pietro might simply be a random dude who was cast in the role of Wanda's brother in order to keep her on her current path.

Carol I suspect might not have been around during Maria's first illness, since we know that she only came back to earth after infinity war BUT I can't imagine that she didn't look into Maria and Monica after the snap and we know that she was on and off earth in the five years after. The question is: Does Monica know that? I mean, if Carol was with Maria until the day she died, she most likely wouldn't have made a big deal out of it. It is also possible that Monica is simply angry that Carol/The Avengers didn't reverse the snap earlier, early enough so that she could say good-bye. That is naturally not reasonable, but remember, it has only been three years since Monica came back.

Btw, a lot of nice dates for my MCU timeline...we now know for sure when Wanda was born and when her parents died. Honestly, she is a little bit older than I expected, she is actually only five years younger than Black Widow.

[cambridgeguy]

1 minute ago, swanpride said:

Carol I suspect might not have been around during Maria's first illness, since we know that she only came back to earth after infinity war BUT I can't imagine that she didn't look into Maria and Monica after the snap and we know that she was on and off earth in the five years after. The question is: Does Monica know that? I mean, if Carol was with Maria until the day she died, she most likely wouldn't have made a big deal out of it. It is also possible that Monica is simply angry that Carol/The Avengers didn't reverse the snap earlier, early enough so that she could say good-bye. That is naturally not reasonable, but remember, it has only been three years since Monica came back.

Carol should have known that Monica was snapped - like you said it doesn't make sense for her not to check in after Infinity War so Maria would have said so.  Plus we know she stuck around for Tony's funeral, so she had time to track down Monica prior to this series.  If Carol never set foot on Earth between Captain Marvel and Infinity War when getting there Earth meant days and not months of travel time then I can see Monica being pissed about never getting a visit.

[swanpride]

That is assuming that Monica even listened to her. But maybe she is simply disappointed that her hero failed her.

[Minneapple]

2 hours ago, Capricasix said:

The kitchen and living room were almost a mirror image of those sets in Family Ties.

I thought Full House. Plus with Elizabeth Olsen...

[Chicago Redshirt]

25 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Yes, Vision was killed in IW. I would have to go back and rewatch the episode, though, because I can't remember if Hayward said how long SWORD had been in possession of the body, only that Wanda "stormed" the lab and stole it. That guy's not anywhere close to reliable, though, so even with the footage of her coming in and knocking everyone out, there's something else going on. My girl is not a terrorist, you jackhole.

Even though Wanda's been largely redeemed, she is kind of a terrorist.

Hayward is right that she and Pietro started off radicalized by Hydra, a terrorist organization. She fought against the Avengers and was down with Ultron until she realized the full extent of his plan. 

She -- as far as we know -- never signed the Sokovia Accords so she is operating outside the law.

She raided a SWORD facility.

She know is holding thousands against their will in a painful and violating way, literally terrifying them. 

 

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I am still thinking that Agnes knows way more than she is letting on. She always seems to be showing up to drive plots, like helping with the dinner in the first episode, getting Wanda to join the parents group in the second, she was replaced by Monica in the third episode, but then this week she was pushing the dog narrative, bringing in the dog house and then her bushes apparently killed him, which lead to the boys asking Wanda to bring the dig back, because these kids haven't seen pet cemetery yet. I also thought it was interesting that, when Vision actually got through to "Norm" for a second, he said it was "her" in his head and in charge of everything. Not "Wanda" or "Your wife" it was "her", and I think that they are being vague about that for a reason. I am also so glad that Vision brought up something that I have asking since day one...where are the children? There are no kids in this suburban happy place, and there are schools and playgrounds, but no little kids. 

 

I agree, I think Agnes is way more than just an innocent bystander who just happens to be catching on, she's just very.....convenient all the time and it was especially obvious in this episode. There's a reason her picture was up on the cast list wall but she didn't get named, Wanda didn't even seem to know what the hell she was talking about at first. Ralph also continues to get name checked. 

I also clocked that "she" might end up not being Wanda. That's a pretty standard way for the show to encourage us (and Vision) to make assumptions whilst potentially meaning one of the "The devil's in the details, ladies" "That's not the only place he is" women. 

Carol was kept off the board in Endgame because she was too damn powerful but that doesn't mean she didn't check up on Maria privately. However I can see them using the feelings of potential abandonment for a storyline in CM2. 

[RachelKM]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I am still thinking that Agnes knows way more than she is letting on. She always seems to be showing up to drive plots, like helping with the dinner in the first episode, getting Wanda to join the parents group in the second, she was replaced by Monica in the third episode, but then this week she was pushing the dog narrative, bringing in the dog house and then her bushes apparently killed him, which lead to the boys asking Wanda to bring the dig back, because these kids haven't seen pet cemetery yet. I also thought it was interesting that, when Vision actually got through to "Norm" for a second, he said it was "her" in his head and in charge of everything. Not "Wanda" or "Your wife" it was "her", and I think that they are being vague about that for a reason. I am also so glad that Vision brought up something that I have asking since day one...where are the children? There are no kids in this suburban happy place, and there are schools and playgrounds, but no little kids. 

The more it's said, the more I like the idea of Agnes as in on it.  She was the one who pointed out to Vision that Geraldine (Monica) was different.  Maybe she was trying to excise the outsider.  And it might have been to Vision because she suspected Wanda brought Monica in on purpose and might resist removing her if it wasn't expressly threatening the construct. Whereas making Vision question Monica's presence would threaten the fantasy and be more likely to motivate Wanda - though, as it turned out, Wanda bounced her on her own.

1 minute ago, Featherhat said:

There's a reason her picture was up on the cast list wall but she didn't get named

I forgot about that.  Good catch. 

3 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Carol was kept off the board in Endgame because she was too damn powerful but that doesn't mean she didn't check up on Maria privately. However I can see them using the feelings of potential abandonment for a storyline in CM2. 

It's also possible Carol spent time with Maria during the two years after the Snap and Monica just doesn't know.  It's only been three weeks since the Blip and we don't know how much she knows or if anyone would have been in a position to tell her assuming they knew Carol visited.  

[steelyis]

6 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

No, but Hayward sort of instigated that by sending in an armed drone without Monica's knowledge and ordering the shot. I knew the second he called her a terrorist that he was going to do something stupid. It's like with Monica, Wanda could have done something a lot worse, and she didn't. 

 

Right?

Plus, he's seen how deeply Wanda's submerged herself in the Hex. He knows she considers Billy and Tommy her children, so shooting a missile at her while they're standing next to her was beyond stupid. The dumb son of a bitch is lucky to be alive.

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Same.

 

 

Double same.

[wlk68]

5 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

To me it makes no sense that she isn't being manipulated somehow. Even if she was still grieving in the scene with Clint during Endgame, something must have happened between Then and Now to get to where we found her when the show began. She's stable enough to not kill the agents outside of Westview, and it also stood out to me that she told Tommy and Billy she couldn't bring Sparky back. So she isn't entirely lost yet, and having to reassemble Vision couldn't be something she could do by herself, I wouldn't think.

She was at Tony Stark's memorial with everyone else and seemed sad but completely rational in her conversation with Clint. I can't help but think the thing that pushed her over the edge was them dissecting Vision.  That was horrible and it pissed me right the hell off.

As to there being someone else manipulating her, I wouldn't be surprised. 

On a last note, I realize this is all happening pretty soon after the events of Endgame but the fact that none of the other Avengers are being called in to help talk Wanda down off the ledge is going to be suspicious if it continues for much longer. I can't imagine that someone wasn't available to do a cameo.    

[Cobalt Stargazer]

12 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Even though Wanda's been largely redeemed, she is kind of a terrorist.

Hayward is right that she and Pietro started off radicalized by Hydra, a terrorist organization. She fought against the Avengers and was down with Ultron until she realized the full extent of his plan. 

She -- as far as we know -- never signed the Sokovia Accords so she is operating outside the law.

She raided a SWORD facility.

She know is holding thousands against their will in a painful and violating way, literally terrifying them. 

 

Except the Sokovia Accords were gone against by Steve Rogers himself. Hell, the reason Wanda didn't sign the Accords is probably because she got name-checked in the Lagos disaster and Steve didn't, even though it was Steve's moment of distraction that made the whole incident possible. He underestimated Crossbones' willingness to die if it meant he could take him along, and Rumlow knew that if he mentioned Bucky, Cap would forget the plot of what he was supposed to be doing. None of that is anything to do with Wanda, who never gets any credit for saving Steve's distracted ass from being blown up, or for trying to contain the bomb in general to save the lives of the civilians in the marketplace that day, just the blame for being in a place that Team Cap decided they should be without any oversight from the local authorities.

If Hayward is right, what did he think was going to happen when he sent in a dated military drone and gave the order to fire on her? Without telling Monica, by the way - "What did you do?!?!" Did he even stop for a second to consider the lives of the soldiers with their guns that ended up pointed at him instead of at her? He talks about innocent lives being threatened, and then he takes an entire platoon out there to brace her after trying to shove a missile down her throat? That makes sense. Not.

SWORD dissected Vision, took him apart for God knows what reason. There's no way Wanda could have known that without someone telling her since she got taken by the Snap and lost five years of her life. How would she have known where to go? Why were they keeping the pieces of Vision's body, for what purpose? If it's anything like the previous situation with SHIELD, nothing good would have come of that. Hayward said Wanda was violating Vision's living will, but he was still disassembled in some lab. I doubt that was what he'd have had in mind.

And as has been said, she was aware that Vision was dead when we last saw her in Endgame. Sad, yes, probably still deep in her grief, but not delusional or behaving strangely. Something - someone - must have triggered her, because nothing else makes any sense.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Cobalt Stargazer

[arc]

I agree that Agnes could be the unnamed female person in Norm’s head, but Monica’s description of the mind control she experienced did sound like it was from Wanda.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Except the Sokovia Accords were gone against by Steve Rogers himself. Hell, the reason Wanda didn't sign the Accords is probably because she got name-checked in the Lagos disaster and Steve didn't, even though it was Steve's moment of distraction that made the whole incident possible. He underestimated Crossbones' willingness to die if it meant he could take him along, and Rumlow knew that if he mentioned Bucky, Cap would forget the plot of what he was supposed to be doing. None of that is anything to do with Wanda, who never gets any credit for saving Steve's distracted ass from being blown up, or for trying to contain the bomb in general to save the lives of the civilians in the marketplace that day, just the blame for being in a place that Team Cap decided they should be without any oversight from the local authorities.

If Hayward is right, what did he think was going to happen when he sent in a dated military drone and gave the order to fire on her? Without telling Monica, by the way - "What did you do?!?!"

Yes, he's Captain America, but legally, he too was acting outside the law and was subject to being locked up for refusal to abide by the Sokovian Accords. The term "terrorist" is a hard one to apply to Cap, because he's Cap and a symbol of truth, justice and the American way, yadda yadda yadda. But from a certain point of view that label is not too far from criminal, which is what Cap was.

Now it seems that after the Snap, nobody bothered to enforce the Accords any more, or at least it's not clear if they even exist. It seems like the Snap is a big argument against them because A) people like Thanos aren't going to abide by them and B) delaying heroes might allow people like Thanos to work evil.

Obviously, sending even a top-of-the-line drone to try to take Wanda out when you give her advance notice of its existence is a dumb plan. But other than just shooting her on sight, what else is one supposed to do with Wanda when she is holding thousands of people hostage and won't listen to reason? 

[swanpride]

Quote

Even though Wanda's been largely redeemed, she is kind of a terrorist.

 

No, she really, really, isn't. As Monica pointed out, being a terrorist means that you want to reach a political goal by causing terror. Wanda doesn't have a political goal, nor is she particularly set on destruction and/or terror.

Quote

Hayward is right that she and Pietro started off radicalized by Hydra, a terrorist organization. She fought against the Avengers and was down with Ultron until she realized the full extent of his plan. 

 

No, he is wrong. Wanda and Pietro were freedom fighters, not terrorists, they were defending their country and did it largely in their own country. And yes, the moment Wanda realised what Ultron was really up to, she deflected and joined the Avengers.

 

Quote

She -- as far as we know -- never signed the Sokovia Accords so she is operating outside the law.

 

That doesn't make her a terrorist, it makes her an opponent of the Sokovia Accords, nothing more. If you go by that, she was operating outside the law when she attacked Thanos.

 

Quote

She raided a SWORD facility.

 

A Sword facility which for some reason had Vision's body in a lab. Why the hell is the body not in Wakanda, or buried alongside Tony, or at any other place which can be considered respectful and/or safe?

 

Quote

She know is holding thousands against their will in a painful and violating way, literally terrifying them. 

We actually don't know that for sure, but even if you work off this assumption, that just means that she is lashing out with her power. It still doesn't make her a terrorist. A bank robber might also hold people against their will, but he is still not a terrorist.

[RachelKM]

7 minutes ago, arc said:

I agree that Agnes could be the unnamed female person in Norm’s head, but Monica’s description of the mind control she experienced did sound like it was from Wanda.

It could be a little of both.  Monica definitely described experiencing Wanda's pain and grief.  So I do think the Hex itself is constructed from Wanda's abilities and is an extension of her grief.

But as noted above, and by Wanda herself, maintaining an entire town and everyone's actions 24 hours a day would be a massive endeavor. Not just the power she's using, but creating a world so that when she and Vision showed up, the town and it's inhabitants appeared to have lives.  So maybe Agnes is a manifestation of someone who's hijacked Wanda's grief for some purpose and is controlling elements of it to direct Wanda and Vision's stories. 

 

 

[Spartan Girl]

Maybe Wanda heard about Steve's time travel fuckery and got pissed he rather create a fake happy alternate life instead of saving Vision.

[lovett1979]

35 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I thought Full House. Plus with Elizabeth Olsen...

No, the colors and furniture were definitely Family Ties. The kitchen was on the other side of the living room, but the door window, dark wood stairs, and couch all screamed Family Ties to me.

[swanpride]

There wasn't much Full House there, was there? Mostly just the picnic in the opening and I guess quicksilver acted a little bit like uncle Jesse.

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 minutes ago, swanpride said:

No, she really, really, isn't. As Monica pointed out, being a terrorist means that you want to reach a political goal by causing terror. Wanda doesn't have a political goal, nor is she particularly set on destruction and/or terror.

No, he is wrong. Wanda and Pietro were freedom fighters, not terrorists, they were defending their country and did it largely in their own country. And yes, the moment Wanda realised what Ultron was really up to, she deflected and joined the Avengers.

That doesn't make her a terrorist, it makes her an opponent of the Sokovia Accords, nothing more. If you go by that, she was operating outside the law when she attacked Thanos.

A Sword facility which for some reason had Vision's body in a lab. Why the hell is the body not in Wakanda, or buried alongside Tony, or at any other place which can be considered respectful and/or safe?

We actually don't know that for sure, but even if you work off this assumption, that just means that she is lashing out with her power. It still doesn't make her a terrorist. A bank robber might also hold people against their will, but he is still not a terrorist.

The conventional definition of terrorist is someone who seeks to use fear to obtain a political objective, and it's true tht what Wanda is currently doing does with Westview not cleanly fit in that area. 

It absolutely fits what she was doing in Age of Ultron up till she saw through what Ultron was really up to. She literally was playing on the Avengers' fears in support of Hydra and Ultron and their respective political aims. 

One person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.

I would think the law would look differently at attacking duly appointed representatives of the law as they tried to apprehend a wanted criminal versus attacking another vigilante who was trying to end half of the life in the universe. 

We'll see if they tell the story of why/how SWORD got Vision's body and exactly what they were trying to do with it.

We absolutely know for sure that Wanda is at least partially responsible for Westview being the way it is and that the people there are experiencing terror on a fundamental level. Monica told us that, and we saw Norm as well. While she is not holding Westview hostage in the name of a particular political ideology or group, she does arguably have a political objective of being left alone in her fantasy world. To me, that is more political than the bank robber who would happily take a million dollars if he could get it without robbing a bank. She wants to experience what she's experiencing in Westview no matter what it costs people, no matter that the people she has hijacked are terrified and cut off from their normal lives, no matter that there is no legal authority to do so, and no matter that legal authority asked for her to stand down.

Even if that is not on all fours with a traditional definition of terrorism, I'd say it's in the ballpark.

[swanpride]

Not really...plus, this guy was set on portraying her as dangerous as possible. But the fact is that Wanda was an Avengers for years. She nearly sacrificed herself to kill Ultron. She played an important role in the Battle of Wakanda. And who knows how many people she helped in-between. There are few who had to sacrifice as much as Wanda did.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, swanpride said:

Frankly, I am pretty sure that Wanda was the one who pulled Monica in and controlled her and she has some level of control over Vision. But I don't think that she is doing the same thing to everyone else. Wanda is right, those are way too many people to handle for one person, even one as powerful as Wanda is. I think that she pulled Monica in because on some level she knew that she needed help, but then she wanted to lose herself in her fantasy, hence she pushed Monica away again. But if there is someone who can reach her, it is most likely Monica (at least as long as Clint isn't around).

I agree. Wanda pulling Monica in is one of the more interesting ideas presented. I wonder if the broadcasts are another way Wanda is unconsciously calling for help. The broadcasts and the way they are being edited feels like two opposing forces. 

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Pietro might simply be a random dude who was cast in the role of Wanda's brother in order to keep her on her current path.

Carol I suspect might not have been around during Maria's first illness, since we know that she only came back to earth after infinity war BUT I can't imagine that she didn't look into Maria and Monica after the snap and we know that she was on and off earth in the five years after. The question is: Does Monica know that? I mean, if Carol was with Maria until the day she died, she most likely wouldn't have made a big deal out of it. It is also possible that Monica is simply angry that Carol/The Avengers didn't reverse the snap earlier, early enough so that she could say good-bye. That is naturally not reasonable, but remember, it has only been three years since Monica came back.

Yeah, I’m not ready to job on the multiverse Pietro bandwagon yet. 

There are so many possibilities for Monica’s reaction to Carol’s name. I agree that it seems unlikely Carol wasn’t with Maria. She also could be resentful that Carol was with Maria when she wasn’t. 

21 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We absolutely know for sure that Wanda is at least partially responsible for Westview being the way it is and that the people there are experiencing terror on a fundamental level. Monica told us that, and we saw Norm as well.

We actually don’t know if Wanda is at all responsible. We know she has some degree of control but we don’t know if she created it or if she could end it. 

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, Dani said:

We actually don’t know if Wanda is at all responsible. We know she has some degree of control but we don’t know if she created it or if she could end it. 

We know Wanda has some control and we know that she can exit the Hex since she actually did.  Everything we've seen indicates that, whether she created it - either consciously or subconsciously - the Hex it somewhat powered by Wanda's abilities and she is aware of the construct and what it's doing to the people involved. 

And even if she were not powering the construct, Wanda is very powerful and could likely end it or disrupt it by using her powers.  Whether she can end it or not, she isn't even trying. 

So while I'm not certain of her degree of culpability, she definitely has some. That said, I have a feeling she running almost entirely on grief at the moment which still makes her sympathetic, if clearly in the wrong. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

18 minutes ago, Dani said:

We actually don’t know if Wanda is at all responsible. We know she has some degree of control but we don’t know if she created it or if she could end it. 

We don't know if Wanda created the Westview situation or is another victim of it, albeit with more control than the typical person caught up in it.

But we do pretty much know that Wanda expelled Monica and took the missle out of the Hex, and that she left and returned with no problems, and that she has some level of control of things there. We do know that Wanda didn't seem shocked at Vision's concerns that people are being held hostage.

She seemingly knows that the people are being held hostage. And she's good with that. It is a safe assumption that if she really wanted to, she could let the thousands of people in Westview go.

Which in my mind makes her at least partially responsible for their predicament. Now her own grief/mental issues/possible outside manipulation may be preventing her from seeing the situation clearly or doing the "right" thing. 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

We know Wanda has some control and we know that she can exit the Hex since she actually did.  Everything we've seen indicates that, whether she created it - either consciously or subconsciously - the Hex it somewhat powered by Wanda's abilities and she is aware of the construct and what it's doing to the people involved. 

I don’t agree. Wanda seems legitimately confused when people around her struggle. She clearly is not fighting what is happening and is working to protect it but I haven’t seen any evidence she knows the people are suffering. That may be willful ignorance or it may be her being influenced by whatever is happening but I don’t think it’s clearcut yet. Even when she was pissed at Geraldine and booted her from Westview she protected her. When she went outside she didn’t hurt anyone even though they had shot a missile at her. 

 

27 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

So while I'm not certain of her degree of culpability, she definitely has some. That said, I have a feeling she running almost entirely on grief at the moment which still makes her sympathetic, if clearly in the wrong. 

Yes but my response was about whether or not it was terrorism on Wanda’s part. I don’t think we know enough to make conclusion on that. 

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

She seemingly knows that the people are being held hostage. And she's good with that. It is a safe assumption that if she really wanted to, she could let the thousands of people in Westview go.

I’m just saying that I’m not convinced of that yet. 

[Fiftyninth]

Regarding “recasting” Pietro: With Vision, Wanda had his body. She didn’t have access to her brother’s corpse, though, so it makes sense that it she were involved in bringing a version of Quicksilver into Westview, it wouldn’t be the same version necessarily. 
 

That said, I’m not sure Wanda was behind the arrival of Pietro.

[RachelKM]

2 minutes ago, Dani said:

Yes but my response was about whether or not it was terrorism on Wanda’s part. I don’t think we know enough to make conclusion on that. 

I wouldn't define what she's doing as terrorism in any fashion.  In addition to being defined as having political or social objectives, it also is defined by the use of fear to motivate.  She's holding people against their will, but she has no ends other than the continuation of her construct.  The construct is not a tool, it is the goal.   

I was only responding to the comment that we don't know if Wanda is responsible at all. 

To me, whether she created it, she is responsible to the extent that she knows it's a construct.  She's been aware that the people within it are likely real since she sent Monica out, and she was told by Hayward she was holding people hostage and Vision confirmed that the people in the construct are in pain. Her response was to push that information away.  She didn't even seem surprised.  So she at at least suspected it before having it confirmed and now she's willfully maintaining the construct despite confirmation.  

As I said, her degree of culpability is definitely unsettled.  But in my opinion, there is not a question of whether she has any responsibility.  She's an active participant at this point however it started. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 minutes ago, Dani said:

 I’m just saying that I’m not convinced of that yet. 

People's mileage will vary, but it seems to me that the end of this episode proves that she knows that people are being manipulated.

Vision raises the notion that he spoke to Norm, unearthed his suppressed personality, and got him free of Wanda's oversight. Vision says he was in pain.

The reaction shot of Wanda is admittedly ambiguous, and could mean, "I have no idea what you're talking about" or "Fuck, the gig is up, but I have to play dumb" or any number of things.

She starts to say "Vision, can we just..." But Vis interrupts and ends by saying, "You can't control me the way you do them."

Wanda's response, "Can't I?"

That, I think, is not ambiguous at all. It is an acknowledgement by her that she is controlling the others and that she thinks she can control Vision too.

I don't think that she is in denial about what is going on. She simply wants things to be as they are in this fantasy.

 

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think that she is in denial about what is going on. She simply wants things to be as they are in this fantasy.

 

I think she's somewhat in denial.  To the extent that she seems aware, and has now definitely been told, that people are unwilling participants in the Hex world, she seems to be shutting that information out.  Denial can mean compartmentalizing facts to keep them out of the way.  

I agree however, that however aware she was at the start, she knows now and is choosing her fantasy with Vision over people's lives and freedom. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 minute ago, RachelKM said:

I think she's somewhat in denial.  To the extent that she seems aware, and has now definitely been told, that people are unwilling participants in the Hex world, she seems to be shutting that information out.  Denial can mean compartmentalizing facts to keep them out of the way.  

I agree however, that however aware she was at the start, she knows now and is choosing her fantasy with Vision over people's lives and freedom. 

I should have phrased that somewhat better. I think we are saying the same thing slightly different ways.

Wanda may not have known at the begining that the others in Westview were real, or that they were actually suffering by having their memories suppressed. I take her at her word she has no idea how this got started, until shown differently.

But as of this episode, she seems aware that people in Westview are real people who are being tormented by being there, even if she wants to turn a blind eye to that part of things. She is aware that she is controling them and is OK with that too.