S02.E07: Æsahættr

[Cranberry]

Quote

As all paths converge on Cittàgazze, Lee is determined to fulfil his quest, whatever the cost. Mrs Coulter’s question is answered, and Will takes on his father’s mantle.

Originally aired: December 20, 2020 (on BBC One; Dec 28 on HBO)

[Quark]

What a breathtaking and heartbreaking finale.

I knew his death was coming, but Lee's death was incredibly powerful.

Superb end to a phenomenal season. 

[PinkRibbons]

1 hour ago, Quark said:

I knew his death was coming, but Lee's death was incredibly powerful.

Took the words out of my mouth! I liked Lee in the books but Lin made me love him.

The Subtle Knife has always been my favorite of the original trilogy (I know not a popular feeling), and this has been a truly beautiful adaptation. I can't argue with a single change.

 

[PWHCHCH]

FYI there is a post credits scene this episode. 

[Capricasix]

Damn me if I didn’t feel a little sorry for that wretched golden monkey!

Great episode. The scene with Will and Jopari was touching, and I thought the sound effects for the Specters were really creepy. I can’t wait for the third season - hopefully the BBC will give the go-ahead soon!

[Cranberry]

This was the first episode this season that I didn't like. I think I just don't like Jack Thorne's dialogue; listening to it feels like reading a picture book. "She's Eve... Eve before the Fall. This time, she mustn't fall. I'll see to that." It's all very... straightforward. "I've had a best friend. And I let that best friend down. Maybe this is how I let you down." It's just boring.

I watched this episode with my brother, who hasn't read the books, and he said Lee's death felt meaningless and that the show didn't do a good job of showing what a feat it was to hold off that many shooters. He also found the ending anticlimactic.

I enjoyed the rest of this season quite a bit, and I definitely hope we get the third season. I just hope that Thorne continues to let other people write episodes or works with co-writers like he did for all of this season besides the premiere and finale.

[Llywela]

5 hours ago, Cranberry said:

I watched this episode with my brother, who hasn't read the books, and he said Lee's death felt meaningless and that the show didn't do a good job of showing what a feat it was to hold off that many shooters. He also found the ending anticlimactic.

I also haven't read the books and I agree with your brother. A lot of the deaths here felt meaningless to me. And a lot of the action felt pointless, all the characters just spent the episode wandering vaguely around without any real sense of purpose. I'm struggling to decide what I feel about this show, two seasons in. I like a lot of things about it, but a lot of the storytelling feels...I dunno. Off. I suspect I'm probably losing a lot of context in the translation from page to screen.

Take Lee Scoresby and Jopari/John Parry, for instance. What was the point of their journey this season? What did they achieve? I never got any real sense of what truly motivated either of them, beyond plot necessity. Why did Lee devote himself so utterly to this suicide mission, all in the highly vague cause of trying to find an undefined lucky charm he wanted to give a little girl he only ever met briefly? Who was this man outside of that singular purpose? What did he actually want to achieve? The characterisation felt sketchy and he never even got to see Lyra again, she will never know how much he sacrificed in the completely futile attempt to protect her from afar. And why did John Parry truly agree to go along on said suicide mission? He didn't know he was going to find his son at the end of it, so what was in it for him, ultimately? Also, I'm a bit miffed that he didn't keep his promise to Lee, who died protecting him. He promised faithfully that he would get the knife to protect Lyra and then never even mentioned her name to Will, instead sent him off on a different (and still very vaguely defined) quest entirely. What was the point of Mary Malone's wanderings over the last few episodes, since she never managed to meet up with anyone significant? It all felt under-developed and ill-defined to me.

I dunno. For a season finale, this felt a lot more like set-up than it did the climax of the story of the season, and the various story strands weren't tied together effectively enough (or, really, at all) to feel satisfying in any way.

(Apologies, I'm not usually this critical in this show forum)

Edited December 21, 2020 by Llywela

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Awwww, RIP Lee! It made me so sad to see him die all alone, begging his daemon not to die before he did.

Ugh, Mrs. Coulter continues to suck. She claims that she loves Lyra, but she is like a stalker who claims she loves her victim. She sees Lyra as a possession, something to control. That's not love. That's obsession. Here's a hint, lady: if you stuff your kid into a trunk, you probably don't love her.

[Llywela]

31 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ugh, Mrs. Coulter continues to suck. She claims that she loves Lyra, but she is like a stalker who claims she loves her victim. She sees Lyra as a possession, something to control. That's not love. That's obsession. Here's a hint, lady: if you stuff your kid into a trunk, you probably don't love her.

Agreed. Although I also got a strong sense of regret from her in this episode. It's as if...she kind of vaguely knows what a mother is supposed to be and feels regret that she has never been capable of being that for Lyra, so has decided she is going to make up for it now, but doesn't actually have the blindest idea how to go about it, because she doesn't have any concept whatsoever of how to truly relate to another human being. She only knows how to hate, manipulate and control.

I find her story more compelling than Lee's, however, as charming as he was, because I find Mrs Coulter's motivations easier to follow. She has a clear sense of purpose driving her onward (to achieve power, to manipulate the Magisterium, to find her daughter, etc.). I never got any real sense of why Lee felt compelled to abandon his entire life to go after a girl he only ever met briefly, and since he died without ever achieving his aim, his story is left feeling strangely incomplete, a side thread that needn't really have existed in the first place. I don't know. Maybe that's the point.

[AnimeMania]

How did Mrs. Coulter walk 3 days up a mountain and then 3 days down a mountain carrying a trunk of Lyra, all before Will could walk 20 feet and have a 30 minute conversation with his father?

Lee was shot 4 times, I am glad at least one of them stuck. Lots of dead people.

Ooooh, I think I saw a polar bear! Damn it! I shouldn't have blinked!

Mary, I hope you brought plenty of food, it looks like everybody is headed off to other worlds, except you.

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

How did Mrs. Coulter walk 3 days up a mountain and then 3 days down a mountain carrying a trunk of Lyra, all before Will could walk 20 feet and have a 30 minute conversation with his father?

Barely even a three minute conversation, never mind 30. Where did Mrs Coulter even get the trunk? She must have knocked Lyra out (how?) and then carried her back to the city (how?), not only before Will could return (except that he doesn't seem to have any such intention) but also before Serafina could return - or give chase, having discovered Lyra missing. Also, avoiding Mary Malone along the way without even knowing she was there to be avoided. Then Mrs Coulter had to get Lyra through the portal into their Oxford, without her waking up and trying to escape again, and from there to a hideout, all without anyone noticing her lugging an unconscious teenager around over her shoulder. What the hell kind of knock-out drug was she casually toting around through her travels?! How much upper body strength does that woman have hidden away beneath her snappy wardrobe? And that's before we even get started on the speed with which she managed to catch up with a group that had several days' head start on her in the first place...

[WearyTraveler]

I thought it was implied that the wisps of smoke (I so want to call them dementors, I keep forgetting their name) carried her to the camp where Lyra was

[Quark]

On 12/23/2020 at 9:54 PM, WearyTraveler said:

I thought it was implied that the wisps of smoke (I so want to call them dementors, I keep forgetting their name) carried her to the camp where Lyra was

They're called spectres 🙂.

[Darlin]

I love this show (truly, trying to get my brother to watch it) but I did not love this episode.  I'm frustrated.  Maybe if I read the books I would have a different feeling about this series.

My jumbled thoughts:

I had to eyeroll Mrs. Coulter, yet again besting a foe.

These witches seem ineffective. 

All this buildup of Will finding his father and we get a 5-minute reunion that's cut short.

Mrs. Coulter kidnapping Lyra in a suitcase. 

Lee Scoresby's death was the only event that affected me.

The return of Asriel left me indifferent.

 

I will of course watch Season 3 but I figure it'll be another year before the show returns.

[Quickbeam]

I found I can’t take animal abuse even if it’s animated. Don’t kick the monkey! 

[aghst]

These witches can fly and speed through an airship full of soldiers and kill them all.

But Lena chooses to get into a confrontation in some confined space while her daemon is like a sitting duck for the monkey?

I don't know why she would have a conversation with Mrs. Coulter.  Why not just shank her like the Flash and be done with her?

Instead, she's the one who gets got.

Then the other one, decides to take a nap in the middle of the forest along with Lyra.  Even if there wasn't threat of Spectres, what about wild animals?

Seems like the whole purpose in the story for Lee and for Jopari is to tell the Golden Child, or Golden Children, the teen couple, of their grand destiny, some existential struggle vs. evil, as represented by the Authority.

Is the Subtle Knife the same thing as the Æsahættr, the ultimate weapon in this coming Conflict?

In any event, Will is playing the scorned by daddy role until Jopari takes a bullet literally for him.  That makes him literally take up the mantle, the much cooler medieval hoodie instead of the modern one.

How about that, a young British man in a hoodie wielding a knife?

Mary Malone is walking through the forest by herself, reading poetry while there are gun shots and Spectres gobbling up witches.

Then Asriel makes an appearance, blathering on about some lofty struggle which is coming, what a noble war it will be.  This is the man who sacrificed a young child.  The Angels will join his side but won't they think of the children?

Edited December 29, 2020 by aghst

[AnimeMania]

11 hours ago, aghst said:

Then Asriel makes an appearance, blathering on about some lofty struggle which is coming, what a noble war it will be.  This is the man who sacrificed a young child.  The Angels will join his side but won't they think of the children?

At the end of Asriel's grand speech to the Angels he says "Oh and by the way are there any little children here? I need to get back home."

[Valerie]

WOW. Season 2 was nuts. I absolutely loved it, and thought it was very true to the books with some subtle differences. Will's reunion with his dad was heartbreaking. I really liked the casting of Andrew Scott and enjoyed his performance.

Lee's death was like the Red Wedding in GOT all over again. I read the books, knew what was coming, but was still devastated when he died. I absolutely loved Lin's portrayal of Lee (he's such a nerd about the books too, I love it) and thought he did a fantastic job. That shot of Hester's dust blowing in the wind... ugh... and then Serafina coming to him too late. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Valerie

[Tachi Rocinante]

Underwhelming and a bit depressing, but I expected it for the end of the second act in a three-act play.  Just like The Empire Strikes Back.

[edhopper]

I find Mrs Coulter being all powerful because reasons weak.

The two deaths were sad and meaningless.

I have felt this whole season to be 2 episodes drawn out to 7.

[Mr. R0b0t]

I want this show to be good.  I am rooting for it to be and yet it feels hollow and lifeless for some reason.  The cast and on-screen visuals are fantastic so I'm left to believe it is dialogue and plot contrivances.  

[Duke Silver]

I love this story.  However, I still haven't warmed to the child characters.  I actually have an active dislike of Lyra.  Guessing that's not what I'm supposed to feel.

[springbarb]

On 12/20/2020 at 10:14 PM, PWHCHCH said:

FYI there is a post credits scene this episode. 

What was in it? I missed this.

[WatchrTina]

Meh.  I guess I'll have to watch it again because -- even though I JUST watched it -- it didn't really stick with me.  All the complaints above are well-spotted -- especially the witches being inexplicably lame (though in the prior episode they DID mention that the witches' powers were diminished in this realm.)

I don't like children-in-jeopardy stories so drugged Lyra in a suitcase is a really crummy final image for the episode.  And based on this board I've now learned that this was the final episode for the season, so THAT sucks.   For the record, Lyra's parents are the worst.  Both of them.  Never forget that Asriel killed that little boy in order to open the portal last season.  I guess Mrs. Coulter's abuse of her daemon is supposed to indicate to us that she suffers from self-loathing but I don't care.  She's awful and I hope she dies.  Soon.  Maybe she and Asriel can hold hands and jump in a volcano together.  That would be fitting.

Edited January 6, 2021 by WatchrTina

[Haleth]

With all due respect to people who love this story/the books... as someone who hasn’t read it, this was terrible. I’m not even interested enough to go back to see what the post credits scene was. 

[tennisgurl]

Lee's death in the book was the first time I remember actually crying while reading a novel (I was a pretty young kid when I read these) so this had a lot to live up to, and yeah, that was a heartbreaker. I don't think it had all of the gut punch of the book, but it felt significantly more depressing for whatever reason. Possibly actually seeing Hester turning into dust while Lee begs her not to leave first actually on screen, or that Serafina was just a little bit too late to save them, or that it felt so much more pointless in the show than in the book. Lee and Hester died to get John to Will, only for John to die the second he finally finds Will*. What an absolute downer of an ending, but I guess its because this is the middle point of the story where things have to get bad before they get better. Lin certainly made me feel it hard, and while he is certainly different than how I pictured Lee from the book, he really made the part his own, and the show just wont be the same going forward without him. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by tennisgurl

[Tachi Rocinante]

On 1/2/2021 at 10:29 PM, springbarb said:

What was in it? I missed this.

Roger.

"Lyra, help me!" Roger pleads, and Lyra answers him with, "What is this place?"

Apparently there is a universe of the dead?? Or he's not really dead? I don't know.

[Affogato]

On 12/21/2020 at 8:56 AM, Llywela said:

 

I find her story more compelling than Lee's, however, as charming as he was, because I find Mrs Coulter's motivations easier to follow. She has a clear sense of purpose driving her onward (to achieve power, to manipulate the Magisterium, to find her daughter, etc.). I never got any real sense of why Lee felt compelled to abandon his entire life to go after a girl he only ever met briefly, and since he died without ever achieving his aim, his story is left feeling strangely incomplete, a side thread that needn't really have existed in the first place. I don't know. Maybe that's the point.

I thought Lee is a comment on faith, and that we lost some of the character when the show was cut down to fit the format? But yes, faith is often futile and people need to feel as if they have a purpose?

i was pretty horrified by Mrs Coulter vowing to prevent Lyra’s fall, which would mean keeping her in ignorance (or darkness, considering the trunk).

I am somewhat confused about coulters leadership of the Spectres....

[cleo]

I feel really turned off the whole series. I can't accept the idea that Azrael is a hero when he knowingly murdered a child. All for the greater good? Right. Maybe the greater good isn't so great if it requires innocent kids to be killed.

Also are the witches powerful or not? Seems like not so much. I feel like all of the scenes with them and Scoresby were basically filler. I actually feel like most of the season was filler.

Why couldn't the girls just walk up the hill to where the adults were on their own?

Why did the specters leave the adults on the hill alone? They clearly had no issue leaving the city.

The torch being passed to the young hero is a common trope in fantasy and usually done better. Again it seemed kind of pointless. They met and what? Will already had the knife.

Also and I can't stress this enough, I am really tired of watching Coulter's demon be abused. I know it's not real, but I don't really enjoy watching animals get abused for entertainment.

Anyway I probably won't watch much of season 3 but if they make it I hope everyone who is enjoying the show likes it. 

ETA I can't even comment on Lyra in a trunk bc by then I had tuned out.

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by cleo

[janeta]

Finally got the discs from netflix and watched this season; yeah, the final ep was a mess.  Lots of people wandering aimlessly and blindly through  apparently hundreds of square miles of terrain, yet eventually everyone who is supposed to meet up finally does.

 I never read the books, so I have no idea how important Lee was supposed to be, but in the show he annoyed me.  It seemed like the PTB thought, “We got LMM! Better make him huge and important and give him lots of screen time!”

Thx for the heads up about the post credits scene; will have to check that out. I've started watching the interviews at the end of the DVD and someone says, “It's such a beautiful world!” and all I could think was, “pretty much everyone around this girl dies, often in horrible ways. What’s so beautiful about that?”

If season three comes along, I'll watch it at least for the FX. 

[aghst]

I finished a rewatch of the 2 seasons in preparation for season 3.

Yeah a lot of things are still baffling.

Scene with Jopari and Will, father had to make Will understand what important role he has.  For a stranger in these other worlds, he had almost all the pieces of the puzzle, more than most other characters.

Lyra is Eve before the Fall?  That's what Marisa is focusing on but Seraphina had said that Lyra has to do the things she was prophesied to do, without knowing about the prophesy.  So if Mrs. Coulter tells her that she's Eve, it blows up the prophecy?

Have to imagine these alternate worlds are allegorical to a certain extent.  Seems like Kaufman was weaving in theology and other philosophical precepts into this universe.

Authority just seems to be God and the Magisterium claims to speak in the name of the Authority, wields dictatorial power, suffocating thought, pursuit of knowledge.  Certainly these are not unfamiliar elements in our own history.

Defeating the Magisterium wouldn't seem that difficult.  They only have those slow airships with guns.  Asriel could pop over to our world and acquire some portable surface to air missiles.  What is the Subtle Knife going to do that an automatic rifle couldn't do?

I imagine in the books, Will doesn't come from modern day England with Teslas and smart phones.  Or modern military aircraft and all manners of weapons.

So they've raised expectations a lot with this talk of this all-out war encompassing all the worlds.

Of course there are magical things in this world.  I don't recall if I saw the post-credits scene.  Apparently there is a way to reach the dead or at least Roger.

[bluestocking]

When will we get threads for Season 3 episodes?  

[aghst]

Anyone can make them.