S04.E07: The Hereditary Principle

[sistermagpie]

On 11/17/2020 at 10:29 PM, Peace 47 said:

 

And Dazzle (was that his name?) saying that she should abandon the royal family and her title to convert to Catholicism because that gave his own life meaning was so weird to me because it’s not like Margaret had been exploring and compelled by the Catholic faith.  Such a random suggestion.  They used it as an opportunity to say that Margaret was very attached to her title and snobbishness and would never let that go even as her status dwindled, but why would Dazzle suggest abandoning the royal family?  It was the non-Royal brother of the Queen Mum who shut his kids away.  Maybe that was at the behest of the Royal Family, but it’s not like Elizabeth and the other family members who made up Margaret’s social circle knew about this and bore blame for it.

 

I thought it was kind of a joke, since he was telling her to join the Catholic church in order to get away from an organization that only protected the center and left their most vulnerable members to fend for themselves. As if that doesn't sound like the Catholic church.

I really liked how in this ep my first reaction to Margaret's wanting more work was, "Woman, how many times do you need to be told no?" and then immediately after I realized that of course she's incapable of deciding to change her life in any other way than asking to do more princessing for real this time. She loves being a princess. It's what gives her life meaning, and that's just her. She could have married Peter way back in S1 if she was willing to step away from these kinds of duties and she didn't.

It was a little unbelievable how shocked she was at the sisters being put away since that wasn't just a royal thing at that time.

[JasonCC]

Good episode, but so many forced segues and connections for the sake of plot that had little to do with each other.

Princess Margaret dropping off the top 5 senior royals or whatever because Edward is 21 must have involved some sort of pay cut for her to be so irked by it? The "I have nothing to do" makes no sense. Princess Alexandra still does functions in the UK and she is probably 30th in line to the throne at most. One of my dearest friends was handed her diploma from Lancashire University from her. 

Elizabeth was probably too kind to say it, but one of the elephants in the room is Margaret's drinking. Yes, she got a wake up call with the smoking, but she still can't do big functions hung over or when she just merely loses interest. 

ETA: A questions for the Brits or those more knowledgeable than me. I heard there was a rejiggering of the system a few years back (after this episode...90s maybe?) that set up goalposts to get public $$ for royals not the sovereign or direct heirs...so maybe that "Top 6" isn't in place anymore? It was based on work done for the country more so than bloodlines....so Princess Michael of Kent, Duke of Kent, Princess Alexandra. etc are more prominent because they perform a lot of functions. Other cousins and distant aunts? Do less, whether because they don't need or want to...but the gov't money doesn't really come to them (although personal money from ER, Philip or Charles might).

JEEVES: Thanks for this info RE "official actions vs public appearances"! It's more about being an instant stand-in, I see! Makes sense then. Margaret seems very smart to me, indeed. 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by JasonCC

[Jeeves]

3 hours ago, JasonCC said:

Princess Margaret dropping off the top 5 senior royals or whatever  because Edward is 21 must have involved some sort of pay cut for her to be so irked by it. The "I have nothing to do" makes no sense. Princess Alexandra still does functions in the UK and she is probably 30th in line to the throne at most. 

The status that Margaret lost in this case was that of Counsellor of State, which is kind of a big deal in terms of status and potential authority to act in absence of the monarch (due to illness, disability or absence from the Kingdom).  Eligibility for that role is set out in a law passed by Parliament, so it's not something within the Queen's discretion. The law operated to bump Margaret off the list when Prince Edward turned 21. I don't think there's any income involved, but after she was widowed so young, the Queen Mother managed to get herself specially retained as a Counsellor of State (for life I think) by an act of Parliament (the Regency Act of 1952) after telling Prime Minister W Churchill that she didn't want to be sidelined as of no use to anyone.  

Of course there are plenty of royals carrying out the various appearances, etc., [in non-pandemic times, of course] who aren't among the five who are eligible to be Counsellors of State. In fact, right now the five are Prince Philip (who has retired from public life), Prince Charles, Prince Andrew (also retired from public life but not honorably), Prince William, and Prince Harry (who has left royal life for LA). So three out of the five are basically out of action. That leaves Charles and William to carry on if HM is incapacitated for any period of time, and I think the law really doesn't require more than two to take action if required. 

I agree, though, that Margaret was too much of a party girl by that time in her life, to take easily to any kind of serious standing-in for HM as to official actions, vs. public appearances. I heard a couple of her friends and ladies-in-waiting, who spent a lot of time with her for years, in a documentary, say that Margaret was quite intelligent. They also said that she never really was able to channel that, and I think one of them said she'd just not been well educated. She obviously thought that was a shame and a waste. Obviously we're getting the dramatic version of Margaret in this series, and the drinking and emotional situations are the stuff of good drama. 

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I heard a couple of her friends and ladies-in-waiting, who spent a lot of time with her for years, in a documentary, say that Margaret was quite intelligent. They also said that she never really was able to channel that, and I think one of them said she'd just not been well educated.

When Margaret was a child, her parents decided about her education. But once she was an adult, she would have got have more education if she had wanted to. 

Many people who worked full-time studied in the evenings. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Roseanna
adding two words and correcting grammar

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

When Margaret was a child, her parents decided about her education. But once she was an adult, she would have got have more education if she had wanted to. 

Many people who worked full-time studied in the evenings. 

Isn't that basically what Elizabeth does on the show once she's old enough? Yes, it seems like Margaret's personality on the show is pretty consistent. She keeps just returning to this idea of her title being the thing about her that makes her special or that she's most interested in, without ever having something that uniquely interests her that she focuses on. 

[Milburn Stone]

On 11/16/2020 at 7:30 PM, JudyObscure said:

I was so hoping Margaret, who wanted some worth while work to do, would start visiting her cousins regularly.  They would have been so thrilled to have her come to their birthday parties "in person" and not just through photos and TV.

I know. It seemed so obvious that she should, and it lends weight to @dubbel zout's post upthread saying that Elizabeth is right not to give Margaret more responsibility--she never does anything with it!

I loved the episode, and agree with all who say it was one of the all-time best. But the one thing that was a head scratcher for me was, surely Margaret was familiar before the time of this episode with the rules of succession! Edward turning 21 and taking her place in line--if that was the first time she learned that was going to happen, I'll eat my crown.

[JudyObscure]

48 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

surely Margaret was familiar before the time of this episode with the rules of succession! Edward turning 21 and taking her place in line--if that was the first time she learned that was going to happen, I'll eat my crown.

Heh, yes. I'd sooner believe Margaret kept a list of every person who stood between her and the top job.  I wouldn't be surprised if  she had fantasized about bumping them all off like Louis Mancini in, "Kind Hearts and Coronets.'

Edited December 16, 2020 by JudyObscure

[sistermagpie]

56 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I loved the episode, and agree with all who say it was one of the all-time best. But the one thing that was a head scratcher for me was, surely Margaret was familiar before the time of this episode with the rules of succession! Edward turning 21 and taking her place in line--if that was the first time she learned that was going to happen, I'll eat my crown.

 

8 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Heh, yes. I'd sooner believe Margaret kept a list of every person who stood between her and the top job.  I wouldn't be surprised if  she had fantasized about bumping them all off like Louis Mancini in, "Kind Hearts and Coronets.'

That little talk just had to be more for the audience's enlightenment rather than Margaret's. Not only would she probably have a countdown clock to it in her head, but Elizabeth probably would have never initiated a conversation about it when she didn't have to.

[WatchrTina]

On 12/16/2020 at 11:22 AM, Milburn Stone said:

the one thing that was a head scratcher for me was, surely Margaret was familiar before the time of this episode with the rules of succession! Edward turning 21 and taking her place in line--if that was the first time she learned that was going to happen, I'll eat my crown.

You know what they say: denial isn't just a river in Egypt.  I can well imagine her thinking that the list of official  "councillors of state" was just words on a page and that her life -- her duties and her privileges -- could in no way be impacted by the fact that a mere whelp of a boy had had his 21st birthday.  After all, she was the daughter of a KING and the passage of time did not change that.  Yeah, I can well imagine that Margaret assumed that whatever the rules were, they'd be adjusted to accommodate her special status as the only sibling of the Queen.  Someone noted above that a special, lifetime status as counselor of state was granted to her mother so It's not hard to imagine that Margaret blithely assumed there would be some special accommodation for her as well.

Remember how -- in an earlier season -- young Queen Elizabeth was depicted as being surprised when she learned that Margaret could NOT marry as she liked even after her 21st birthday?  The Queen protests that that was NOT the information she had previously been given and the person speaking to her acts like "Oh, you should have known."  If Elizabeth could be misled about so personal an issue it's easy for me to imagine that Margaret did NOT know (or if she knew, did not believe) that her rights and privileges as a princess of the blood would EVER be diminished -- especially after she gave up the love of her life to retain her royal status.

Edited December 17, 2020 by WatchrTina

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Remember how -- in an earlier season -- young Queen Elizabeth was depicted as being surprised when she learned that Margaret could NOT marry as she liked even after her 21st birthday? 

The decisive line was Margaret's 25th birthday.

[MizLottie]

On 11/18/2020 at 6:53 AM, AZChristian said:

..there are references to a number of first cousins of QEII who lived in lavish apartments at Kensington Palace.  Which makes it even more horrendous that the Bowes-Lyon sisters lived and died the way they did.

Even that shit Joe Kennedy put Rosemary up at a nice place and Eunice Shriver and family have done so much to make a nicer life for special needs folks.  I understand the era but to be considered dead and forgotten is inexcusable.

[Razzberry]

The actual facility didn't seem that bad to me, other than the co-ed sleeping arrangements which was ridiculous.  They appeared to be well cared for, but no one visiting them for years was sad.  I didn't buy Margaret's sudden concern for a minute.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Razzberry

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

The actual facility didn't seem that bad to me, other than the co-ed sleeping arrangements which was ridiculous.  They appeared to be well cared for, but no one visiting them for years was sad.  I didn't buy Margaret's sudden concern for a minute.

I bought it--because it was really concern for herself. She saw herself as being cast aside just like the sisters!

[Razzberry]

Perhaps her health scare provoked a paranoia of being shut away out of sight - otherwise comparing her life of glamour and privilege to that of the presumed dead relatives seems a bridge too far even for the self-absorbed Margaret.

[Camera One]

I also thought that the episode was going towards Margaret finding a purpose in her life and promoting the plight of the mentally ill, but nope.  I suppose it does fit with her previous personality, but after reading the comments for this thread, I too wonder what the point of the episode was.  By the end, Margaret was back to drinking and smoking.  What changed, exactly?

I did feel sorry for her when the usual Elizabeth can't fulfil Margaret's single request moment came and Margaret got outranked by the youngest son.  But as Elizabeth said, couldn't she get more involved with a charity?  She could've try to give herself purpose in a different way.  As other posters said above, what about her children?

Margaret was portrayed as whiny and vindictive in the first two seasons, so it was difficult to warm to her, but I still haven't gotten used to HBC in the role.  I did like that despite being her "centric", they did give her a number of substantial scenes with Charles, Elizabeth and the Queen Mother (unlike in Season 3 where the characters seemed to be in silos).  

I'm surprised Diana came to Edward's birthday party and looked happy to be there, given what they have shown so far.

In hindsight, the intercutting between the birthday celebration at the palace, and at the institution was very fitting, as they were all technically in the same family.   As historical fiction, it is not surprising this happened, but it was still sad.

[dubbel zout]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

As other posters said above, what about her children?

I'm a bit surprised we didn't get mention of them. They're far enough down the line of succession that I didn't expect to see them, but I thought lip service would be paid.

[rafibomb]

On 11/29/2020 at 10:38 AM, Badger said:

Philip also had a cousin with severe learning difficulties.  She was the daughter of his uncle George who was the 2nd Marquess of Milford Haven.  She was also put away in hospitals.  Her name was Lady Tatiana Elizabeth Mountbatten.

According to Lady Colin Campbell, who has written several books about the royals, the Bowes-Lyon cousins plus the other three who were institutionalized, had Huntington's Chorea.

 

This seems very unlikely to me- Huntington's is primarily adult-onset and it's a progressive disease. The rare cases of juvenile onset have a life expectancy of 10 to 15 years, so I can't imagine they would have survived to 67 and 88.

The question probably could be answered today via genetic testing, but I suspect the Bowes-Lyon family wouldn't go for that...

[Roseanna]

On 12/16/2020 at 7:10 PM, sistermagpie said:

Isn't that basically what Elizabeth does on the show once she's old enough? Yes, it seems like Margaret's personality on the show is pretty consistent. She keeps just returning to this idea of her title being the thing about her that makes her special or that she's most interested in, without ever having something that uniquely interests her that she focuses on. 

Yes, when Elizabeth noticed she hadn't got a proper education that she needed in her job, talking with Prime Minister and foreign guests, she got herself a teacher (although we didn't see if her lessions lasted). In any cases, simply reading the red box materials and listening to prime ministers for decades must have given her much information about many matters. 

But the sisters have totally different personality. The dutiful Elizabeth adapted herself to the role that she hadn't chosen and tried to do it so well she possibly could. The egoistical Margaret chose just to drift in the life although she had had options, unlike Elizabeth.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Powerful stuff.  I was putting myself in the place of the caregivers.   I seriously doubt I could do that work.  God bless all who do.

Margaret's true colors keep showing and an ugly picture they make.  Fine to take the greatest offense and yell at Mummy.  But, when it then counted most, she washed her hands as Pilate would.  

I'd love to know the back story as to how Burke's got it wrong.  Was a Lascelles behind the cover-up?  Was a correction ever offered/made?