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Door County Cherry

S01.E06: Swish

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Another good one, though it also confirmed that Simon and Daphne are still the least interesting part for me. Some nice moments as she learned about his past and got to know the village/villagers and how things worked, but the scenes focused on just the two of them did the least for me (though that's probably because, while I haven't read these particular books, I've certainly read enough romance novels that it felt like something I've seen a lot before--broody guy with daddy issues and plucky, good-hearted, personality-free woman breaking down his walls--and feels really drawn out. But nice to see really see a romance novel brought to life, I suppose).

Everything else though was juicy as hell. Everything with Penelope and Colin and her family... Gold. I know the main couple has to be here to properly adapt a romance novel series...but I'm really here for everything else.

Edited by TheOtherOne
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Am I supposed to be cheering for Daphne in this situation.. I guess with my knowledge of the world its hard to contemplate her being this unknowledgable about how things work... But I feel like Simon was pretty clear that kids were not gonna happen.. I mean he was ready to be shot.. And she still Saudi let's do it... He told her more than once... So for her to.. I guess steal his seed.. And then tell him he wasn't enough... Well ouch.... As for Penelope and Colin and all Marina... Ouch again... This is why I don't piss women off

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12 minutes ago, UnoAgain said:

Am I supposed to be cheering for Daphne in this situation.. I guess with my knowledge of the world its hard to contemplate her being this unknowledgable about how things work... But I feel like Simon was pretty clear that kids were not gonna happen.. I mean he was ready to be shot.. And she still Saudi let's do it... He told her more than once... So for her to.. I guess steal his seed.. And then tell him he wasn't enough... Well ouch.... As for Penelope and Colin and all Marina... Ouch again... This is why I don't piss women off

Yeahhh this is what I was concerned about with this series...that moment. I really, really wish they had changed it. Have a conversation for christ's sake! 

The Featherington sisters are such a delight. I like them even better than in the novels - they seem clueless rather than truly spiteful. Their comments about Marina and Colin having a cute baby had me laughing out loud.

I love the modiste, but you really mean to tell me that Marina is the first woman who spoke French who came into her shop? Give me a break. 

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Simon and Daphne are hot as hell and I root for them but I have to say what she did was a violation and then she tried to turn it around on him. So he didn't explain in detail about making babies but he didn't blatantly lie to her either. 

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8 hours ago, UnoAgain said:

Am I supposed to be cheering for Daphne in this situation.. I guess with my knowledge of the world its hard to contemplate her being this unknowledgable about how things work... But I feel like Simon was pretty clear that kids were not gonna happen.. I mean he was ready to be shot.. And she still Saudi let's do it... He told her more than once... So for her to.. I guess steal his seed.. And then tell him he wasn't enough... Well ouch.... As for Penelope and Colin and all Marina... Ouch again... This is why I don't piss women off

And Daphne still had no choice in the matter.  No agency at all.  It was either live as a social outcast after she was ruined (and take her family down with her because what she does would put a stain on her sisters) or marry him no matter what.  The moment he followed her into the dark path alone he sealed her fate.  The only thing different about her situation with Nigel and the situation with Simon was that she liked Simon.  She still had no choice.

Then she doesn't understand that his inability to have children is of his choice and not because of something that happened to him in childhood.

I think they changed the scene to the best they could but. . . . .  

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4 hours ago, katha said:

I don't understand why they couldn't just change that plot point. Daphne also never shows any kind of understanding or remorse for what she did, so her character is forever ruined for me. And presumably she will be in future seasons as well and has to be fast-forwarded as well...

They could have just made up a whole other conflict for Simon and Daphne, one not involving marital rape. It's deeply disturbing that they didn't.

Yeah on its face all of it is dumb... His dad was a monster but deciding to wbd your line seems super rash... But.. He told her he wouldn't marry or give her kids.. If were to believe her.. She knew at least partly that going out into that garden with him at her heels could've ended the way it did.. He tried to suicide by duel to not get caught up.. I'm assuming because he knew that that his pull out plan WASN'T really a long term solution... But she said were gonna marry anyway... Once she finds out about his Plan.. She does in fact perform maritsl rape... She knows exactly what she's trying... But a tense conversation could've done that trick.. Instead she steals his seed and then when he asks why and he says he thought he was enough.. Just the two of them in love.. She crushes him.. . now he's at fault for obsfucation... But the remaining show seemed to only center on how she was hurt and what he did wrong... I'm only upset that they glossed over the seriously screwed up thing she did... 

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Yeah, it plays out like Simon transitioning from an abusive childhood into marrying another abuser. And that at the end he's just been coerced and gaslighted into seeing her abuse as "good for him." That whole line of "you gave me no choice but to abuse you" Daphne trots out afterwards is classical abuser language. It's a super disturbing message to send. It's disturbing as hell in the book, they tried to water it down in the series. I'm not sure they succeeded.

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2 hours ago, katha said:

Yeah, it plays out like Simon transitioning from an abusive childhood into marrying another abuser. And that at the end he's just been coerced and gaslighted into seeing her abuse as "good for him." That whole line of "you gave me no choice but to abuse you" Daphne trots out afterwards is classical abuser language. It's a super disturbing message to send. It's disturbing as hell in the book, they tried to water it down in the series. I'm not sure they succeeded.

I know right... I'm well aware that as a dude I inherently have some advantages and even more so for the men of this series.. But what happened to Simon is wild.. I imagine a female character who didn't wanna have kids having her husband knowingly and forcibly climaxing inside of her to see if she gets pregnant... And then to be emotionally hostile to her until she decides she does wants kids woulda hit a bit different... Smh

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I loved that scene between Simon and Daphne in the rain. I loved her speech to him about loving every part of him and that's exactly what he needed to hear.

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17 hours ago, ouinason said:

In the game of "who's the asshole" they both win.

I agree. 

I understand that it was different for her when she thought he couldn't give her children.  He could have been enough for her when she believed the choice between Simon and children was because she could not have both and not because he wouldn't give her both. He did lie and there is NO WAY he didn't know that she didn't understand. 

And I agree, purposely causing him to ejaculate inside her was messed up and a violation.  She doesn't know his reasons, but she understood his wishes. 

It makes them both seem deeply fucked up people and pretty hard to root for.

 

Edited by RachelKM
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That whole part of the story is really, really problematic. I don't know how they could have handled it differently without inserting a whole anachronistic conversation about consent, but I'm not getting paid the Netflix writer big bucks. I wish they could have altered the story in some way to address it. Instead, Daphne's actions are just glossed over.

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Well, I haven't watched beyond this episode yet to know how the show deals with the aftermath. But, my feelings about this part of the story are sometimes good people do bad things. If Daphne were an "evil" side character who was trying to get the better of Simon, we'd probably just write it off as evidence of her being an antagonist in the story. However, these are the two leads in the Duke and I, and we are supposed to like them and ultimately sympathize, but again, I think about both real life and fiction, and as I said, sometimes people we love do things that are morally wrong and how one handles that, whether to forgive or not, is part of the story.

ETA: Now that I think about it this episode had a kind of a theme since Marina was trying to "foist" a child onto an unknowing Colin.

Edited by Nidratime · Reason: Typo.
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31 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

That whole part of the story is really, really problematic. I don't know how they could have handled it differently without inserting a whole anachronistic conversation about consent, but I'm not getting paid the Netflix writer big bucks. I wish they could have altered the story in some way to address it. Instead, Daphne's actions are just glossed over.

I think they could have skipped the sex part and jumped straight to the fight.  She could have confronted him and skipped the icky part.  And I truly hate the discussion on this topic that I've seen online because I keep going back and forth about who I think was worse here and I kind of hate seeing articles making that decision because I always disagree--whatever side they take.

39 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

but Simon -- who is way more knowledgeable about sex and lied to Daphne

Yeah.  I think these are good points. He is more knowledgeable.  Women tended to get more blame than men when kids weren't produced so whether intended or not, she was going to bear the societal brunt of his choice. 

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They also gloss over that Simon is going to stick to Daphne's side until he knows if she's pregnant or not, and how does that make sense based on what they showed us? Does he think she's going to go bang someone else and get pregnant? The implications of that are disgusting on his part, but he told her to stop. I also go back and forth and back and forth and just find myself acknowledging that if I'm going to enjoy the show, I can't focus on Daphne and Simon's relationship.

 

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On 12/26/2020 at 7:31 AM, Door County Cherry said:

So I have so many feelings about this episode.  First feeling, I thought it was kind of boring.  Simon and Daphne had some chemistry earlier in the series but once they got down to fuck, it didn't really do much for me.  And there were so many sex scenes too.  

The sex was boring as hell. Although I am greatful for Simon taking his clothes off regularly, it came as a relief once he got down to estate business.

It was a boring episode overall with Marina being the only symapthetic and understandable character. That was a very real moment when she told Penelope that George’s letter being forged didn’t change anything. It really didn’t.

I’ve decided that the actor playing Colin is just badly miscast. There were actually a few good-on-paper lines for him in this episode, but the delivery fell so flat.

Spoiler

Penelope was a bad, bad girl. At least we get her showing actual remorse.

And so glad that Penelope and Eloise made up at the end. Maybe Eloise will unclench a bit. I know I said that she was my favorite, but she’s getting to be a bit much, even for me. 

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It was just a failure on all fronts tbh and the relationship depicted consequently is so toxic and unhealthy, while they try to sell it as "twu wuv." And I don't get how they didn't just avoid that whole mess. Everything regarding that conflict is terribly written by Quinn, so the obvious solution is a complete rewrite. Have them disagree about children, but address it with actual communication. I know, it's not as "edgy", but also not as deeply disturbing.

Spoiler

I mean, they at least removed that he's drunk and barely even knows what's going on like in the book. So they understood that something is wrong there, but didn't get that the violation goes beyond that.

And I guess that is a whole other discussion about gender stereotypes, toxic masculinity and the wrongheaded notion that men can never be victimized straight out of the 1950ies...

Now we have this totally creepy scenario in 2020 where not wanting children is presented as morally repugnant, trauma can just be bullied away by your wife "for your own good." And fundamental differences regarding plans for life can just be solved by "twu wuv" instead of actual discussions and compromises. And since she's gotten away with it once, will Daphne just violate and assault Simon whenever she disagrees with him on anything? This is sort of implied by this toxic "happy ending." I don't know what they attempted to do with that whole mess.

Vanity Fair published a pretty decent article on this:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/12/bridgerton-sexual-assault-scene-how-does-it-happen-in-the-book

Edited by katha
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Just now, bijoux said:

Marina being the only symapthetic and understandable character. That was a very real moment when she told Penelope that George’s letter being forged didn’t change anything. It really didn’t.

Thank you for putting spoiler tags around your points. I wish others would be so courteous and not heavily reference the books while discussing the TV show. It can at times be a bit confusing. Anyway...

Though I’ve been side eying Marina’s plotting for the past few episodes, I could appreciate her realness and maturity in her discussion with Penelope. That said, I wonder who spilled the beans to Lady Whistlebound? The pregnancy has been kept secret for all this time, but as soon as Marina and Colin are about to run off to Scotland to get married the truth coincidentally comes out. 

Everyone has pretty much captured my thoughts on Daphne and Simon. They both were very wrong in their actions. However, I think the best approach for Daphne after learning the truth would’ve been to confront Simon rather than manipulating him in to a sex act that could  potentially result in a pregnancy. But I guess we’re supposed to understand her perspective in that she’d reached her limit in being controlled and manipulated by men, in not having the ability to make her OWN choice. Even with Simon’s reasoning, he still is able to control his life, make his own choices. So though wrong and a betrayal in its own right, I get that her fury is not just about Simon’s lie, but her choices once again being taken away by a man.

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27 minutes ago, Enero said:

Thank you for putting spoiler tags around your points. I wish others would be so courteous and not heavily reference the books while discussing the TV show. It can at times be a bit confusing. Anyway...

FYI,

If people haven't had a chance to read the guidelines about what should be spoiler tagged and what can be left alone, here are the rules.

If you think a post has crossed that line, feel free to report it and I will take a look at. I might have missed it or decided it was okay.  

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I guess I am the only one who applauds Daphne. She is the one who was duped. She is in love with Simon and he has been lying to her through their marriage and before.

She is inexperienced and had to figure out that he was pulling out in order to not impregnate her. He is the asshole in this story. He knew that she knew nothing. And that he could get away with this.

So now she she turns the tables on him and him and she is the "rapist"? That is is ridiculous.

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Yes, continuing a sexual act while your partner withdraws consent and wants to stop is rape.

ETA: This is why their relationship is so toxic. They never learn to communicate and Daphne sees that assaulting her partner will solve all her problems. Simon lied and betrayed her. The solution is to confront him about it and bring down the wrath of the family on him or something, if she feels that is necessary. Not assault him in "revenge."

Edited by katha
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I'd have applauded Daphne if she smashed him over the head with one of the family portraits. This is beyond the pale. This is not to say Simon is blameless. As one poster aptly stated, they both win in the game of who's the bigger asshole. 

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31 minutes ago, katha said:

Yes, continuing a sexual act while your partner withdraws consent and wants to stop is rape.

I understand what you are saying. But this is not what we witnessed in this show. He did not want to stop, he just did not want to ejaculate and impregnate his wife.

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15 minutes ago, bannana said:

I understand what you are saying. But this is not what we witnessed in this show. He did not want to stop, he just did not want to ejaculate and impregnate his wife.

No, he consented to the initial sexual act, but then withdrew consent as it progressed, this is exactly what you are describing. She didn't stop. But I think this will just be an agree to disagree topic, I don't want to make the thread contentious.

Edited by katha
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He was 99% to ejaculating. She didn't allow him to pull out. She got on top of him.

I don't really understand how this is rape.

And I would love to see how the law would see this. Women are actually raped and never believed. And now we are expected to believe that a guy is being raped by his wife? The wife he loves and is having sex with? Because he came?

 

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"She didn't allow him to pull out" is where it turns into rape. That victims of rape rarely get justice, that messed up gender stereotypes trivialize the rape of men to a point that it is turned into a joke regularly in popular media is another matter entirely. That marital rape, that rape between "loving partners" gets trivialized is another matter. That the show doesn't understand what it is depicting turns it into a part of the problem regarding this hugely toxic attitude that still prevails regarding rape and sexual assault in all forms.

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@katha, I am truly sorry. I did not mean to trivialize this. We do not agree about what happened on the show. We see it differently. 

I was sexually assaulted years ago. I don't see this as that. I am pretty sure Simon doesn't see it as that either. He is just pissed that she figured it out. 

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Yes, I don't think this is a productive discussion going forward. We just disagree. 🙂

Everyone has obviously personal experiences tied to the topic and is getting understandably distressed. I don't want anyone getting further hurt by continuing to dwell on it. Which makes me even angrier at the show and what a mess it made of things.

Edited by katha
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And I guess that is a whole other discussion about gender stereotypes, toxic masculinity and the wrongheaded notion that men can never be victimized straight out of the 1950ies...

Now we have this totally creepy scenario in 2020 where not wanting children is presented as morally repugnant, trauma can just be bullied away by your wife "for your own good." And fundamental differences regarding plans for life can just be solved by "twu wuv" instead of actual discussions and compromises. And since she's gotten away with it once, will Daphne just violate and assault Simon whenever she disagrees with him on anything? This is sort of implied by this toxic "happy ending." I don't know what they attempted to do with that whole mess.

But this story is not set in 2020. It's set in the 1800s. And just like in the 1950s, when there was wrongheaded views of who can be victimized and how, there were beliefs and societal expectations in the 1800s that are no longer acceptable today. Considering the way society was structured, the roles men and women were expected to play, and the agency they were allowed, it's no wonder that things went so wrong. I mean we can count them off endlessly: Marina having to be practically "sold off" to some old codger to protect her reputation and that of her child and then turning around and trying to fool clueless Colin for the same reason; Simon's mother in a loveless marriage trying endlessly to produce a child to carry on a man's title, legacy, and property despite it killing her; young women never being informed about their own bodies, about sex, and reproduction and, of course, not having any other opportunities; women being paraded around at a "marriage mart" in the belief that the only they thing they were good for was being a wife and mother. Honestly, the one action that wasn't socially verboten before Daphne made her wrongheaded move, was for Simon to be honest with her. Granted a Duke not wanting any heirs would've been viewed as him not "doing his duty," but men had a lot more agency than women and could get away with bucking the system. I think what makes watching these type of shows or reading these stories so interesting *is* the societal differences, let alone the costumes and scenery. We can chastise Daphne for what she did from a 2020 lens -- I mean, I can recall actions in my own lifetime that were similar without all these societal excuses -- but we really should put them in the context of the time. Not to excuse them, but to understand them.

Edited by Nidratime
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I couldn't really take the whole "Simon doesn't want kids" plot point seriously when he was apparently raking it all over the country before marrying Daphne, and then having non-stop sex with her after their wedding.  His little pull-out game was hardly reliable birth control and he should probably have had at least a couple of bastard kids running around out there.

If they wanted to show that Simon was dedicated to his revenge pact then he should have refused to sleep with anyone ever in order to prevent pregnancy, including Daphne (before inevitably having a change of heart and consummating his marriage).  But I guess that wouldn't fit with the overused "good girl tames a promiscuous rake who teaches her about pleasure" trope lol.

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I don't think Simon was using the pull put method with everyone else but actual birth control available at the time. 

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16 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I don't think Simon was using the pull put method with everyone else but actual birth control available at the time. 

And none of those offspring would have the right to the Dukedom. So, even if he had a few kids on the side, they'd have no right to the title, the property, or anything else Simon didn't choose to give them, either through acknowledgment of his being the father and bringing the kid under his roof or just by virtue of paying the mother on the side. And frankly, I'm not sure he could grant them the title since that comes down from the King/Queen.

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2 hours ago, Nidratime said:

And frankly, I'm not sure he could grant them the title since that comes down from the King/Queen.

He could not.  Adopted and illegitimate children could not inherit titles or the related entailed property. The UK didn't even allow legitimization through subsequent marriage. 

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That is an excellent point, and what was his plan if Daphne accidentally got pregnant from the pull out method?  Was he going to deny he was the father?  Push her down the stairs?  AND how was he planning to explain it to HER if she got pregnant from that?  

 

Simon was a moron.

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10 hours ago, bannana said:

I guess I am the only one who applauds Daphne. She is the one who was duped. She is in love with Simon and he has been lying to her through their marriage and before.

She is inexperienced and had to figure out that he was pulling out in order to not impregnate her. He is the asshole in this story. He knew that she knew nothing. And that he could get away with this.

So now she she turns the tables on him and him and she is the "rapist"? That is is ridiculous.

Agreed and said better than I did - she was so ignorant she was not sure if it mattered and its not like she could ask because no one would tell her.  He was a willing participant in "the act" so I think rape is a bit out there.  We are trying to put 21st century ideals on a very unknowing girl.  The book handles it differently but comes to the same ending but takes a bit longer to get there. 

He should have told her he would NOT.  the part that is missing (but they have a throwaway line to cover it) she thought he was unable to do "the act" aka was impotent.  I see a girl who had no clue about sex and what makes a baby trying to figure it out.

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12 minutes ago, Slakkie said:

I see a girl who had no clue about sex and what makes a baby trying to figure it out.

Well by the time she did what she did... She knew the basics and I'm guessing put two and two together.. Cuz she said I was hoping it was t true when she  saw his reaction... Was she aware of how deeply she had just violated him... Doubt it... Which might be why she never apologized as back then and maybe to some ppl nowadays what she actually did ( sans her reasons be they righteous or dastardly depending on how the scene hits)  wasn't really thought of as anything wrong

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This was a time when men raped women and it was considered the woman’s fault and she was the one who was soiled. So by that sensibility, Simon would be the one in the wrong for Daphne’s physical act? But well, women were always in the wrong when it came to sex. It’s a complicated issue that was poorly handled.

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6 minutes ago, UnoAgain said:

Well by the time she did what she did... She knew the basics and I'm guessing put two and two together.. Cuz she said I was hoping it was t true when she  saw his reaction... Was she aware of how deeply she had just violated him... Doubt it... Which might be why she never apologized as back then and maybe to some ppl nowadays what she actually did ( sans her reasons be they righteous or dastardly depending on how the scene hits)  wasn't really thought of as anything wrong

Herr naivety and being so uninformed gives her a little wiggle room. But she was still in the wrong.

Edited by mommalib
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She is definitely in the wrong, but I don't think either of them see it as rape.  They do later have an exchange that makes clear that he doesn't trust her, and her him either really.  And neither of them ever apologizes.  They are both stupid.

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If it was an accident out of ignorance, it'd be less problematic.   But it was calculated.

And while, yes, attitudes were different back then, I think the POV is supposed to be modern.  The show doesn't necessarily present things that were acceptable back then as positive but rather the rules of the times they lived in to explain why characters make the choices they make.

There's a way no one in society would take what happened with Simon seriously but still have the writing reflect how wronged both felt...not just Daphne.

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Yes, the problem is that the show wants to critically reflect on some of those past attitudes. They are presented as deeply problematic and wrong. Yet they create this toxic relationship at its center. And IMO the toxicity never gets in any way resolved. You can't claim a modern, progressive view in some instances, when it suits you. And totally abandon it, when it doesn't. The writing for Simon and Daphne was just very bad here. And the discussion here and around the net clearly shows that at the very least the writing really, really failed, in my view.

Edited by katha
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Yes, I wanted to see them talk about it.  I wanted her to apologize for doing that, and I wanted him to apologize for lying to her and taking advantage of her naivety.

I would have rather her not to have done it.  I sort of feel like maybe it was kept in to make the situation less "Simon is the bad guy".

The more realistic way for it to have come out would be her getting pregnant and being confused and elated and not understanding and him having to explain himself.

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1 hour ago, ouinason said:

Yes, I wanted to see them talk about it.  I wanted her to apologize for doing that, and I wanted him to apologize for lying to her and taking advantage of her naivety.

I would have rather her not to have done it.  I sort of feel like maybe it was kept in to make the situation less "Simon is the bad guy".

The more realistic way for it to have come out would be her getting pregnant and being confused and elated and not understanding and him having to explain himself.

In the book they do exactly this which is probably why I am not bothered by it.  I was a bit shocked they did not put that in because there is a funny moment in that with her brothers.  So my guess is if you read the book it made more sense.  They both acknowledge their issues.  They sped it up a bit and made them a bit stupid.

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2 hours ago, ouinason said:

The more realistic way for it to have come out would be her getting pregnant and being confused and elated and not understanding and him having to explain himself.

I was convinced that this was what was going to happen. The pull-out method is unreliable, and especially when they were doing it multiple times a day!

pull out mtv GIF by Jersey Shore Family Vacation

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Yes, but as it ends in the series, I don't want these people together. They are terrible together. They don't know how to communicate, they don't trust each other. Simon lied to Daphne, Daphne assaulted Simon in revenge. Their relationship is from hell. Yet it is presented as some sort of romantic ideal. It's pretty sickening. I'm not prepared to do the writers' work for them and give them the benefit of the doubt when they can't be bothered to produce something that isn't deeply problematic and wrong. And I dread to think what they will teach their children, with how dysfunctional their relationship is. Totally lacking in trust and respect. Blah.

ETA: And this really soured the series for me, which was ridiculous fun otherwise. None of this was necessary. A rewrite of Quinn's mess would have been so easy. Yet they produced this total failure.

Here is another article where the writer outlines far more eloquently what I find so scary and wrong about this episode:

https://www.pajiba.com/film_reviews/the-questions-of-male-consent-that-puncture-both-fantasy-worlds-of-bridgerton-and-wonder-woman-1984-.php

Edited by katha
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