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S01.E03: Do No Harm

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In the opening sequence with the balloons, I noticed the last balloon that popped was dripping in blood. I’ve been watching more closely to see what I can glean from it. 
If I were Grace, with such a high profile case like this, I’d be tying my hair back or wearing a hat because you can spot that hair a mile away. I’m surprised she doesn’t have more reporters chasing her down plus she might throw Mr Alvez off her track!

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Just now, Kiss my mutt said:


If I were Grace, with such a high profile case like this, I’d be tying my hair back or wearing a hat because you can spot that hair a mile away. I’m surprised she doesn’t have more reporters chasing her down plus she might be throw Mr Alvez off her track!

The NY Post would definitely have a field day with her if she becomes a suspect: CODE RED or GINGER SNAPS, mabe

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2 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

My take was this was more of Grace's little flights of fancy where she imagines how things COULD have gone down but doesn't necessarily imply it's how things DID go down. Like the hammer to Elena's head vision. 

Didn't the detective say last night that a hammer was the object used to bludgeon Elena?

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Is it wrong that I'm mostly here just to watch Grace walk around in her gorgeous coats?

I can't believe that Grace didn't bother to ask her husband how he spent the $500K from her father as well as the money that was drained from their bank account. I know they have bills to pay and he was out of work but seriously? The fact that she didn't even ask him is more ridiculous to me than the fact that she keeps talking to the police without a lawyer.

I'm not a huge fan of the son character, but I loved that the first thing he did when he got to see his father was ask him if he killed Elena. But that aside, I couldn't believe that Grace would bring their kid to jail to see him. He already had the chance to proclaim his innocence in the five minutes that she gave him before calling the police when he showed up at the beach house.

Grace must really want to believe that he's innocent (and not just for their son's sake as she claims). She just found out that her husband:

  • cheated on her
  • wasn't even trying to hide his affair from anyone at work
  • got fired for his affair
  • has an illegitimate daughter
  • lied to her for months about going to work, patients being sick, going to conferences, etc.
  • followed his mistress back to her place the night of her murder and fucked her again
  • disappeared without a trace, leaving her to deal with things like the police tromping through their home and taking evidence
  • drained their bank accounts
  • borrowed $500K from her father

And despite all this, she got her father to hire a fancy lawyer FOR HIM, not herself, and brought their child to jail to see him. She is a far kinder person than I would be in that situation.

I rolled my eyes when Elena's husband asked if they could talk and then she later told the police that he had been stalking her. Pot, kettle. And what a waste of an opportunity for them to have a conversation. Instead of actually talking to him, all she wanted to know was if Elena had slept with anyone else. Okay then.

I hated that Elena was buying into her husband's lame story. It's so typical for a man having an affair to put the blame on the other woman and claim that she was obsessed with him. If I had a penny for every time a guy said his ex was crazy so that he wouldn't have to take responsibility for his own actions, I could retire. I loved that Jonathan's old boss confirmed that Jonathan was the one pursuing her and not even trying to be subtle about it in front of anyone else. What a surprise. Also not a surprise that he loved being the hero, being the center of attention, was a total narcissist, etc.

I agree that Grace's friend is suspect. Between the looks that Jonathan gave her in the courtroom and her being all up in this, she looks shady. I wouldn't be surprised if they had an affair too. I'm still undecided whether Grace had an affair too. The things she was saying to the couple where one cheated sounded like it came from firsthand experience. I mean, I know she's a therapist so it's her job to understand people's motivations but it sounded pretty personal when she said it to them.

19 hours ago, Bulldog said:

For a middle aged Brit, Johnathan seems to be able to handle himself in prison fairly well.

Inside every Brit, no matter how rich or upper class, is a soccer hooligan!

12 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

I think the boy is good but his brown eyes throw me off.

Same. It's like the casting people want us to conveniently forget about Mendelian inheritance and Punnett squares (and sorry, but I can't).

7 hours ago, Melina22 said:

My husband is oblivious to whether or not an actor's accent is accurate to the point he probably thought Kevin Costner in Robin Hood was just fine.

Ha, this made me laugh really hard!

3 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

Wasn't Elena's husband skulking around Elena's studio on that night?  Didn't they show him (possibly with baby pram) standing outside the studio and listening/watching Jonathan and Elena have sex??  Was that supposed to be on the night of the murder?  Wouldn't they have him on video too?  Did they say if he had an alibi?  I would think that would muck up the case for Jonathan as the killer.

When we the audience saw Elena's husband outside the studio watching Jonathan and Elena have sex, that was what Grace was imagining. That doesn't mean it actually happened. The video footage that the police have is from down the street (a block away), not right in front of the building. That's why they can place Grace walking nearby but not in/out of the actual building. The police told Grace, "We have no reason to believe that Fernando Alves is a suspect." Of course, that doesn't make it true either. The police are allowed to lie to you (see: every episode of L&O).

ETA: The police said that Elena's husband was not near the scene that night, but that does make me question where he was as well as the veracity of what the police are telling Grace because (1) he couldn't have left his son and infant daughter alone all night while Elena was at the party (2) in the first episode, we saw that Fernando and Miguel were at their apartment the morning after the murder having breakfast which I assume means they slept there the night before, which puts him near the scene of the crime (3) the studio is about a block and a half away from where they live - in the first episode we see Miguel leave his building, walk to the end of the block, turn the corner, and cross the street to get to the studio.

58 minutes ago, Quita said:

Didn't the detective say last night that a hammer was the object used to bludgeon Elena?

I think what they said was that there was a hammer missing from her studio so they suspect it's the murder weapon.

 

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Did they really need a helicopter to pick up Jonathan? 

I know, right? Half a dozen police cars wasn't dramatic enough.

The way the show is keeping Grace's lawyer friend involved is making me suspicious of her. Has Jonathan had an affair with her too?

Grace doesn't seem to be at work anymore. I'm just waiting for that detective to reveal that she hasn't worked in years...

Three episodes in and it's still fun. I find it funny to see Hugh Grant in prison as he was in Paddington 2, but without the singing and dancing.

I hope Donald Sutherland isn't a villain in this. That would not make for a great twist. I'll be more surprised if he's just a lovely old man! Much more fun and thrilling if Grace or her husband reveal a chillingly evil and calculating side.

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 Is there more to the Elena-Grace relationship then we’ve been led to believe?

I keep coming back to this as well. I have a suspicion we're in for some kind of twist. I hope so, anyway, because I am confounded by Grace's inability to heed everyone's warning about getting herself a lawyer. She just looks baffled like she doesn't understand why anyone would suggest it. It's ridiculous.

I can't remember if they specified this, but initially the police questioned Mr. Alvez then ruled him out. Was it because he had an alibi? Didn't he have some sort of flashback during this episode where he was spying on Jonathan and his wife?

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5 hours ago, Quita said:

Yes! That's what it is for me, those lines! It gives her mouth a joker effect.

You should google Hannah Emily Upp, a NY teacher who went into a fugue state and was missing for three weeks before she was found in NY harbor. Then it happened again. It's very interesting.

I'm curious what happens to the baby. Does she stay with Mr. Alvez who isn't the father? Would Grace get her while Jonathan is in prison, not that she wants her? Will Henry know his half-sister?

If the child was born while she was married to Mr. Alvez, by law he is her father. I assume his name is also on the baby’s birth certificate.

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1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As much as I already like the Muck Lawyer, I was enjoying Jonathan's public defender. I wouldn't have minded keeping him around.

Speaking of accents, we were trying to figure out the public defender’s strange accent. Turns out he was played by a very accomplished British actor (Douglas Hodge) but his accent sounded like a mash up of a Brit trying to do a very poor parody of an outer borough resident.

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6 hours ago, kay1864 said:

I think that’s the conclusion, but when he first said it I thought he meant he confronted her (and had sex) at the auction party.  Did he actually say the studio?

Not that there was anywhere else available. Certainly no bathrooms  available at that massive penthouse 😆

Elena had already left the auction party when he left. He said he followed her which had to have been to the studio, because he then said that when he went back, he found her dead.

4 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

The NY Post would definitely have a field day with her if she becomes a suspect: CODE RED or GINGER SNAPS, mabe

Ginger Snaps, omg I laughed hard at that!

3 hours ago, Quita said:

Didn't the detective say last night that a hammer was the object used to bludgeon Elena?

Yes, he said that a sculpting hammer was believed to be the murder weapon and it was missing. I wonder where it will turn up? Hidden inside daddy's piano?

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As much as I already like the Muck Lawyer, I was enjoying Jonathan's public defender. I wouldn't have minded keeping him around.

I loved it when he was staring Grace down and telling her that his gift is for reading people. I'm kind of hoping we haven't seen the last of him.

1 hour ago, DangerousMinds said:

If the child was born while she was married to Mr. Alvez, by law he is her father. I assume his name is also on the baby’s birth certificate.

It's a presumption, but one that is rebuttable. Happens all the time.

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5 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

The NY Post would definitely have a field day with her if she becomes a suspect: CODE RED or GINGER SNAPS, mabe

Ginger Snaps in on the move!

I totally forgot Mr Alvez saw them having sex. Maybe it’s a setup of some kind to extort money but it went horribly wrong?

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3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

I hated that Elena was buying into her husband's lame story. It's so typical for a man having an affair to put the blame on the other woman and claim that she was obsessed with him. If I had a penny for every time a guy said his ex was crazy so that he wouldn't have to take responsibility for his own actions, I could retire. I loved that Jonathan's old boss confirmed that Jonathan was the one pursuing her and not even trying to be subtle about it in front of anyone else. What a surprise. Also not a surprise that he loved being the hero, being the center of attention, was a total narcissist, etc.

In fairness, Elena did show up at Grace's gym and did a fully nude quasi-confrontation.  She also showed up at the auction group and the boobs came out, along with kissing Grace in the elevator at the auction.  None of those things strike me as something one does unless you are looking to cause a reaction from the person you are doing it too.  So I would say it isn't impossible that Elena had a screw loose. 

I did appreciate Donald Sutherland shutting down the Detective almost immediately at the museum.  It was nice to see at least one person in that family with the brains to not engage with the cops.     

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14 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

I wanted to take some scissors to Donald Sutherland’s eyebrows though. 

It's been so long since I've been able to get an eyebrow wax and tint that my brows rival his. 😧

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7 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

Wasn't Elena's husband skulking around Elena's studio on that night?  Didn't they show him (possibly with baby pram) standing outside the studio and listening/watching Jonathan and Elena have sex??  Was that supposed to be on the night of the murder?  Wouldn't they have him on video too?  Did they say if he had an alibi?  I would think that would muck up the case for Jonathan as the killer.

They did say the husband had an alibi.  

Three things make me think it was Jonathan.  The other doctor’s portrayal of him.  As a co-worker he saw a side of Jonathan that his wife didn’t see.  The way he blamed it all on Elena claiming she was obsessed with him and he was practically forced to have sex with her.  I have a feeling if she was a 400 pound 50 year old he would have found a way to deal with the obsession professionally. And the viscous way he bit right through that man’s finger.   That was sick.  

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14 hours ago, Kiss my mutt said:

In the opening sequence with the balloons, I noticed the last balloon that popped was dripping in blood. I’ve been watching more closely to see what I can glean from it. 

I normally don't pay attention to opening credits but I did notice the blood in at least one quick shot.  (I think there were some curtains that had blood too?)  It seems something bad happened in Grace's past, maybe to her mother?  This leads to the suggestion that maybe Grace is mimicking something she saw as a child?  (I would think this would have been pointed out though, that Elena was killed in a similar manner to mom.)  I'll really hate this show if it turns out Grace is guilty but unaware she did it.

I think Nicole was directed to not move her face, to show no emotion other than that kind of deer headlights look she always has.  She is a beautiful woman, but manoman is she thin.  Must be from all that walking. 🤣

Her lawyer friend is acting shady.  Maybe she was having an affair with Jonathan too and killed Elena herself?

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22 hours ago, aghst said:

BTW, the little girl in the opening credits is suppose to be young Grace?  She’s being stimulated by a rich environment, beautiful plants, a snow gloves, blowing bubbles in what looks like a designer perfume ad.

Did little Grace have a rich dream life.  So the song and the sequence are suppose to be ironic given her current predicament?  Suddenly the bubble has burst for her?  She shouldn’t have any money problems but her perfect life is shattered now?

I assumed that it was young Grace disassociating while being abused, which may explain any fugue state she may have now.  On the other hand, I didn't pick up any creepy vibes from her father, although Donald Sutherland is always a somewhat menacing figure after Hunger Games.  I know, not logical, especially for such a fine actor.

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The funny thing is, I've read the book, You Should Have Known, but it was so long ago, (2014, according to Amazon) and I've read so many book since, that I can't remember it at all. So, I am just a puzzled as everybody else as to who the murderer is. 

We have been shown that Grace had patients, so she has probably put them on hold for a while, or referred them to other people. Unless, of course, those patients are from ages ago, just like Jonathan's patients. 

Nicole's hair bothers me. Of course it's gorgeous and very much like her original hair. She went through a stage of blonde straight hair which I really did not like. But it's too much, too overwhelming. Just like I joke that the movie Prince of Tides, starred Barbra Streisand's manicure, so I feel that Nicole's hair is at least a featured player, and needs its own IMDB page. 

I enjoy seeing older, scruffier Hugh Grant, having been a huge fan for years. it's too bad Jonathan went off the deep end, because it looks like he was a fabulous doctor, at least in Grace's recollection. 

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2 hours ago, Haleth said:

I normally don't pay attention to opening credits but I did notice the blood in at least one quick shot.  (I think there were some curtains that had blood too?)  It seems something bad happened in Grace's past, maybe to her mother?  This leads to the suggestion that maybe Grace is mimicking something she saw as a child?  (I would think this would have been pointed out though, that Elena was killed in a similar manner to mom.)  I'll really hate this show if it turns out Grace is guilty but unaware she did it.

I think Nicole was directed to not move her face, to show no emotion other than that kind of deer headlights look she always has.  She is a beautiful woman, but manoman is she thin.  Must be from all that walking. 🤣

Her lawyer friend is acting shady.  Maybe she was having an affair with Jonathan too and killed Elena herself?

I saw the dripping blood on the curtains, but not blood from a bursting balloon. I also noticed an eerie shot of a silhouette of a child reflected in a pond. Might have been the young red haired girl, but I thought it was someone else.

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The doctor whom Grace spoke really provided some interesting insight into Jonathan’s narcissism savior complex. I’ve seen that actor is so many things but can’t even name one off top of my head. 

I think he most recently played a doctor in the pilot of "B Positive"

On 11/9/2020 at 8:17 AM, Chaos Theory said:

The Manhattan apartment was a marital asset more then likely and Grace was under no obligation to part with it not to mention most of the money.

Jonathan told his public-defender lawyer that the apartment was jointly owned by him and his wife - thus, not available as collateral for a bond

21 hours ago, eclectcmoi said:

Right from the first meeting, Elena was noticeably interested in Grace and to me, not just because that was her lover's wife.  She seemed fascinated and mesmerized by Grace and that grew with each interaction. That seems to give some credibility to Jonathan's claim that Elena was obsessive. 

Almost every character is "off." The writers seem to be planting plot nuggets to steer guilt in multiple directions (and amp up the drama). Grace is "sketchy" and suspiciously withholding, even apart from her "visions," which are ambiguously fictitious or repressed memories. And she just happens to be strolling by the murder site, "I walk, sometimes OK."  Jonathan is revealed by the former doctor coworker to be anything but innocent or "honey trapped" by the murder victim. Jonathan's already confessed to enough to convince anyone rational that he was not who everyone thought he was. The son is angry at his mother for not supporting his father, and also angry at his father for ruining their family life and being disloyal to his mother. While these reactions might be the most "normal" of the bunch, but they're still not quite right somehow, and 15 year old boys aren't known for their cool, dispassionate deliberation about anything. Elena's husband was indeed stalking Grace and then threatened her in a deliberately mysterious manner, all the while cradling the infant child of his dead wife and Jonathan. Yeah, that's on the up and up. Grace's father ignores the police's (presumably correct) assessment that Grace is withholding, and then confesses his own "withholding" to Grace about the $500K, and throw in a little stalking of his own. And, you know, Donald Sutherland. Elena behaved inappropriately in every scene she's been in, and admitted to having various troubles. The lawyer-friend professes not to know much about criminal lawyer (fair enough, most lawyers don't), but then she reveals significant knowledge about both the public defender lawyer and her "intern" buddy, the prosecutor. And then the "knowing" look between her and Jonathan in court? Not a "normal" one in the bunch. But "normal" is boring, so carry on. 

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I'm enjoying this series but the real problem, to me, is that literally everyone is acting like an emotional mess/murderer. Even Grace's kid seems like he knows more than we're being shown.

I was just thinking Nicole's face was looking better than it has in the past (Australia, Secret in their eyes) She was positively blank in those movies. And I was enjoying her old Days of Thunder hair, but people here are right. Who has hair like that just walking down the street?

No lawyer, Wella Balsam Hair, big expensive swing coats. She's a target.

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6 hours ago, Haleth said:

I think Nicole was directed to not move her face, to show no emotion other than that kind of deer headlights look she always has.  She is a beautiful woman, but manoman is she thin.  Must be from all that walking. 🤣

You could be right, given that in the first episode, before the murder, her face seemed fairly relaxed and expressive. For her, at least. I hope that once the show is over, all of this will make sense, and we'll be excited to rewatch. 

This show is really bringing out my shallow side. Watching Nicole, in addition to wondering how some actors keep their skin so smooth and youthful looking, I find myself wondering how so many of the older actresses stay so extremely thin.

I know lots of women are naturally thin. I have friends who are, and they eat normally. But they can't all be naturally thin. And they can't all have eating disorders or be on drugs or smoke. (I assume.) I'm just super curious how they typically do it, and how hard it is for them. Just once I'd like to read an honest article about it. 

Last thing... it's amazing how many people in this show are faking an American accent! Nicole, the muck lawyer, the pre-muck lawyer. Hugh is allowed to be British. Donald is Canadian - does that count? American actors must get so frustrated. 

 

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1 hour ago, WaltersHair said:

No lawyer, Wella Balsam Hair, big expensive swing coats. She's a target.

Wella Balsam Hair - I'm dying!!!

7 hours ago, Haleth said:

Her lawyer friend is acting shady.  Maybe she was having an affair with Jonathan too and killed Elena herself?

Does anyone remember at the auction, was Sylvia the one who pointed out to Grace that Elena was staring at her? I can't remember if it was her, but it seemed odd she would do that considering what she knew at the time because Jonathan had retained her. Maybe it was another friend.

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1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

You could be right, given that in the first episode, before the murder, her face seemed fairly relaxed and expressive. For her, at least. I hope that once the show is over, all of this will make sense, and we'll be excited to rewatch. 

This show is really bringing out my shallow side. Watching Nicole, in addition to wondering how some actors keep their skin so smooth and youthful looking, I find myself wondering how so many of the older actresses stay so extremely thin.

I know lots of women are naturally thin. I have friends who are, and they eat normally. But they can't all be naturally thin. And they can't all have eating disorders or be on drugs or smoke. (I assume.) I'm just super curious how they typically do it, and how hard it is for them. Just once I'd like to read an honest article about it. 

Last thing... it's amazing how many people in this show are faking an American accent! Nicole, the muck lawyer, the pre-muck lawyer. Hugh is allowed to be British. Donald is Canadian - does that count? American actors must get so frustrated. 

 

I think Nicole is naturally thin. But the answer for the others - they just don’t eat much and work out a lot.

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21 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

If the child was born while she was married to Mr. Alvez, by law he is her father. I assume his name is also on the baby’s birth certificate.

True but the detective said the hairbrush/DNA test was because Alvez asked for a paternity test.  

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I think the funniest part was the last scene, where Grace told the police it was hypocritical of them to ask her questions about the murder they're investigating. And then they were just like, "Here's a video of you at the crime scene."

Does make me wonder why they moved so fast on arresting Jonathan if they think Grace is in on it, too.

On 11/9/2020 at 12:48 PM, kay1864 said:

Why was Elena so flirtatious with Grace? At the auction-planning meeting, I didn’t get the vibe that she was flaunting the baby, but rather a sexual come-on, similar to the elevator, or even the locker room.

I'm confused about that, too. When I learned that the baby was Jonathan's, I re-read Elena's behaviour as more hostile and sarcastic. I just don't know what she was trying to achieve with that. (Also, I don't love that they seemingly brought that actress in just to do frontal nudity and die in episode one).

22 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I rolled my eyes when Elena's husband asked if they could talk and then she later told the police that he had been stalking her. Pot, kettle. And what a waste of an opportunity for them to have a conversation. Instead of actually talking to him, all she wanted to know was if Elena had slept with anyone else. Okay then.

That whole scene was weird to me. He wanted to talk to her, and they took the trouble to go somewhere where they could have a private conversation, and then the only thing he seemed to want to say was, "You guys suck." I agree with him, but it seemed like a strange, pointless interaction.

22 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I loved that Jonathan's old boss confirmed that Jonathan was the one pursuing her and not even trying to be subtle about it in front of anyone else. What a surprise. Also not a surprise that he loved being the hero, being the center of attention, was a total narcissist, etc.

I thought that was the most interesting part of the episode -- the suggestion that his prosocial behaviour actually had self-centered motivations.
 

9 hours ago, Haleth said:

I normally don't pay attention to opening credits but I did notice the blood in at least one quick shot.  (I think there were some curtains that had blood too?)  It seems something bad happened in Grace's past, maybe to her mother?  This leads to the suggestion that maybe Grace is mimicking something she saw as a child? 

I also noticed creepy stuff in the credits -- not sure if they're changing each week or if I just didn't watch before. It seemed like the little girl was pretending to wear a wedding veil at one point, so I thought maybe it was a metaphor for how her marriage seemed innocent and perfect and then it turned out there was something sinister underneath.

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15 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

In the car ride, Grace dabs under each eye, then her NOSE, then under her eyes again, without shifting the tissue.

Uuugh I noticed this too, and I was horrified!  

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21 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

But that aside, I couldn't believe that Grace would bring their kid to jail to see him. He already had the chance to proclaim his innocence in the five minutes that she gave him before calling the police when he showed up at the beach house.

Yeah,  Jonathan's selfish motivations prompted that visit, imo.  I don't think most parents would want their kids to see them in jail when a phone call or letter could accomplish the same thing.

I'm interested in what the evidence is that makes the DA and the judge think this is a good case.  They don't have shit!

 

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6 hours ago, Melina22 said:

 

This show is really bringing out my shallow side. Watching Nicole, in addition to wondering how some actors keep their skin so smooth and youthful looking, I find myself wondering how so many of the older actresses stay so extremely thin.

 

They don't eat.  A friend of my daughter did a summer course at RADA with Colby Smulders.  Said she was a great person, but she never ate anything.

But, back to the show...How many coats does this woman have?  Why does her lawyer friend only wear white?   Why were Jonathan's clothes in the closet all the same - he had 10 pairs of dark pants and 10 blue shirts?  

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Did Grace and Elena not have a sexual encounter or affair? I guess I missed something because I just assumed that to be the case. 

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21 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

They don't eat.  A friend of my daughter did a summer course at RADA with Colby Smulders.  Said she was a great person, but she never ate anything.

I know they're under such intense pressure to look a certain way. I think how frustrating it would be to be incredibly rich and famous, but still have to monitor every morsel that goes into your mouth. Talk about a double edged sword! Hence my decision to forgo massive stardom so I can eat pizza and ketchup chips whenever I want. 😁

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The scene of Grace on the video in Elena’s neighborhood reminded me of two Jason Batemans on The Outsider. Maybe Cynthia Erivo’s character from that show will pop up. Lord knows this show could use the excitement. 

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3 hours ago, Mackey said:

Did Grace and Elena not have a sexual encounter or affair? I guess I missed something because I just assumed that to be the case. 

I think that's a "to be revealed... or not" thing.

9 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I'm sorry to see Jonathan's public defender go. (If he is going.) I really liked him in a Columbo sort of way. And I had a feeling he could get him off.

I thought it was interesting that in the first meeting, he didn't care about Jonathan's declarations of innocence - you know that's what defense lawyers hear all the time. He didn't want to hear it and I believe even said that he preferred clients who were guilty, but by the time he met with Grace, he didn't think that Jonathan was a murderer. In contrast to Muck Lawyer (Hailey?) who flat out told Grace that she thinks Jonathan is guilty but will muddy the waters as much as possible to get his acquitted. I wonder whether she will also come to believe that he is innocent of murder.

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On 11/9/2020 at 7:27 AM, Melina22 said:

Wasn't it the son who was sick? 

As for the frozen face comments, I think it's similar to when actors use accents. My husband is oblivious to whether or not an actor's accent is accurate to the point he probably thought Kevin Costner in Robin Hood was just fine. But I'm exquisitely sensitive to accents. A bad one wrecks a movie for me. I'm the same with "frozen face" or "uncanny valley" on an actor or actress. My husband, again, is oblivious, but I'm very sensitive to it, and I really struggle to ignore it. I've stopped watching many shows because of it. 

In my opinion, no one is right or wrong about this. It's just how our brains are wired. 

I agree with the above poster that Grace's father's emotions seemed off. Then again, Donald Sutherland always seems a little shady to me, in all his roles. 

Finally, interesting point above that Grace is SUPPOSED to have an odd, flat affect. But I feel like she didn't at all before the murder. Watching this show is an endless game of "Shady behaviour or bad acting?" I guess we'll find out soon. 

I do think some or most of the acting is not great in this show but it could be a combination of acting, dialogue and directing among others things.  I am hoping it does all come together in the end, and I will keep watching to find out but I wouldn’t recommend this show.

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I will be very disappointed if Grace committed the murder in a fugue state but even more so if it was after she had spent four days in the New Mexico desert cooking meth in an RV.

Hugh Grant and Edgar Ramirez were both on late-night shows Tuesday. Ramirez said that while he was reading each script his own mind would change about whodunit. And Grant and Seth Meyers were waxing nostalgic about NYC and all the crowd scenes (apparently this was filmed right before the pandemic). I didn't notice too many crowd scenes in this ep, but there was one shot I loved where everyone on the street was wearing dark gray coats, and then along comes Nicole in her beautiful deep red coat -- and Dad Alvez and the pink baby carriage following behind. Just a touch of Schindler's List there.

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On 11/9/2020 at 11:11 AM, heatherchandler said:

 

I thought it was Taub too, but when I saw what Taub looks like now, I realized it is not.  

 

 

 

 

No!  

This is her in younger days with her original hair.  And original face.  

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He looks a lot like a chubbier Peter Jacobson, I have to agree. Ironically, he is also playing a doctor on that new kidney transplant sitcom. B Positive. 

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On 11/9/2020 at 12:41 PM, BingeyKohan said:

What are folks' thoughts on the timeline of the night Elena died? Jonathan leaves the fund-raiser to go meet Elena at her studio, they fight and have sex, he leaves. Is this when he goes home and cries and has sex with Grace, then when he leaves early in the morning (after saying goodbye to Henry) that's when goes back to Elena's studio and finds her dead, before disappearing for his faux Cleveland trip?

At what point then did Grace talk her suspicious walk from the Upper East Side up to Harlem? It would have had to have been a time when Jonathan wouldn't have missed her so most likely it was when he was also in Harlem, with Elena the first time around. So if Jonathan is telling the truth and he left Elena alive (and went home) then that's also the only time when Grace could have been out zombie walking ... so Jonathan is also kind of her alibi, and she hadn't been in bed that long by the time he joined her?

And, when exactly (and WHY) did Jonathan plan that convention fake?  

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19 hours ago, Mackey said:

Did Grace and Elena not have a sexual encounter or affair? I guess I missed something because I just assumed that to be the case. 

That might make sense.  The way Grace was looking at her when she went into that house.   Like Grace was trying to pretend she didn't know Elena?

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On 11/9/2020 at 1:29 PM, eclectcmoi said:

Yes... Right from the first meeting, Elena was noticeably interested in Grace and to me, not just because that was her lover's wife.  She seemed fascinated and mesmerized by Grace and that grew with each interaction. That seems to give some credibility to Jonathan's claim that Elena was obsessive. 

I'm finding Nicole/Grace's hair very distracting.  In a lot of scenes that's all I see is her hair.  I was glad to see she has a couple of other coats to wear though other than just the green one.

Does Elena's husband only push the baby around all day in that pink pram? 

This assumes that Grace is a reliable narrator, which I do not believe her to be. I think that entire interest in Grace is a red herring on the part of the show. IMO, Grace, guilty or not is using it to convince herself (and by by extension the viewers), she did not suspect what a piece of trash her husband was before the murder, thereby eliminating her from having a motive. I am not even sure that what we are seeing is happening in real time, it might all be revealed to be a flashback.

I do believe that once Elena thought she had entered the land of come-upville, she had no intention of giving it up. Believe me, her pregnancy was no accident, the blatantness given her relationship or lack thereof with her husband supports this. 

Donald Sutherland’s interaction with Grace was off, but I am again left to wonder if what we saw accurately reflected the conversation, or if that is Grace’s hazed perception of what happened? I am also side-eyeing Lilly Race’s character. Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if the show goes with the kid doing it route (perhaps causing Grace’s state). Her off behavior is open to perceptions of guilt, but it could be rooted in denial over discovering Henry did it and her desperate need to protect her son. Remember, I question the timeline of what we are seeing, I suspect we are seeing memories of previous events.

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4 hours ago, Happytobehere said:

This assumes that Grace is a reliable narrator, which I do not believe her to be. I think that entire interest in Grace is a red herring on the part of the show. IMO, Grace, guilty or not is using it to convince herself (and by by extension the viewers), she did not suspect what a piece of trash her husband was before the murder, thereby eliminating her from having a motive. I am not even sure that what we are seeing is happening in real time, it might all be revealed to be a flashback.

That's an interesting idea. I haven't had the impression that the story is being told from Grace's point of view.

I hope this doesn't end up being a tale that Grace is telling the prison shrink while sitting in his office wearing a straightjacket. It starts out, "I used to be a therapist, much like you." 

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17 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

That's an interesting idea. I haven't had the impression that the story is being told from Grace's point of view.

I haven't either, and I still don't think that. A test of the idea is whether there are scenes in which Grace is not present, and would have no idea about. There haven't been too many of these, but I can think of one. The scene in the prison meeting hall between Jonathan and the public defender. 

The existence of scenes without Grace do not make an open-and-shut case that the story is objective reality (she could imagine the scene between Jonathan and the public defender, for instance), but they argue for it.

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I'm glad there are only three episodes left because I'll be able to stick it out to see how it all ends.

There's so much to question here, and it's not like they're a bunch of red herrings. Since Nicole Kidman is carrying this thing, I'll start with her. I do think that at least part of her frozen face is due to whatever cosmetic work she's had done-my husband referred to her as a "puppet face," because of the lines around her mouth. (We both thought of Cher about 30 years ago) I'm tired of the eye-dabbing (I noticed that in one of the earlier episodes) and her breathy voice. I assume these are acting choices or direction, but for what purpose? They don't tell me anything more about Grace. It feels like her character wasn't really fleshed out before they started production. So we know she is a therapist (and not a very good one, imo, based on what has been presented), she seemed to like her husband pretty well, or at least well enough (never got much of a read on how good or not good their marriage was) and she likes to walk. She obviously is from wealth, but we can't really know how much of that she relies on, or if she pretends she's self-supporting with the luxury of knowing there's a ready supply of money (or a trust fund) in case she needs it. She loves her kid, but she doesn't seem to be especially doting or engaged. She comes across as more of a loner or isolated to me, content in her own head. So maybe these "visions" are purely her imagination, putting her own spin on events as they unfold.

So much of this story seems unbelievable to me: the helicopter landing on the lawn (complete with lots of squad cars!), Grace's weird behavior with Elena's husband (stop following me but answer my questions!) and the interaction with the police that led to them showing her the video of her walking in Elena's neighborhood that night. The way Grace and Jonathan have handled this with their kid is also disturbing - they seem to have abdicated any responsibility for considering how all of this is going to affect their son. There's been no discussion about how to present this to him, how to navigate this, and I think that's really odd considering that Grace is supposed to be a great therapist. There could have been at least a throwaway line from Grace to someone (her dad, husband, friend) about how she's working on minimizing any damage to the kid. Again, is this poor writing or is it supposed to provide us insight into Grace? Is it like her unwillingness to get an attorney for herself? Is this supposed to show us that she's independent?

Donald Sutherland's character is similarly poorly developed, too. However, since he's not on screen so much, I'm giving that more of a pass. I think it's interesting that of the three main characters, the one that has been onscreen the least (Hugh Grant) is the one that is most developed.

For me, the problem is that if they're going to end up with a fugue state, or an unreliable narrator, the writing and/or acting hasn't been strong enough to support that story line. I'm just seeing a confusing mess and trying to figure out what may be real, what may be Grace and what the timeline is. When you add in the unbelievable elements (police behavior, the outsized press interest/stalking), it becomes even more challenging because you're suspending disbelief in addition to discerning what's real or not.

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55 minutes ago, Maysie said:

So much of this story seems unbelievable to me: the helicopter landing on the lawn (complete with lots of squad cars!), Grace's weird behavior with Elena's husband (stop following me but answer my questions!) and the interaction with the police that led to them showing her the video of her walking in Elena's neighborhood that night. The way Grace and Jonathan have handled this with their kid is also disturbing - they seem to have abdicated any responsibility for considering how all of this is going to affect their son. There's been no discussion about how to present this to him, how to navigate this, and I think that's really odd considering that Grace is supposed to be a great therapist. There could have been at least a throwaway line from Grace to someone (her dad, husband, friend) about how she's working on minimizing any damage to the kid. Again, is this poor writing or is it supposed to provide us insight into Grace? Is it like her unwillingness to get an attorney for herself? Is this supposed to show us that she's independent?

Donald Sutherland's character is similarly poorly developed, too. However, since he's not on screen so much, I'm giving that more of a pass. I think it's interesting that of the three main characters, the one that has been onscreen the least (Hugh Grant) is the one that is most developed.

For me, the problem is that if they're going to end up with a fugue state, or an unreliable narrator, the writing and/or acting hasn't been strong enough to support that story line. I'm just seeing a confusing mess and trying to figure out what may be real, what may be Grace and what the timeline is. When you add in the unbelievable elements (police behavior, the outsized press interest/stalking), it becomes even more challenging because you're suspending disbelief in addition to discerning what's real or not.

Agree with all this (and your original point that at least we'll know in the space of 3 more episodes : ) Re: the helicopter and squad car advance - that's also an example of how much this show leaves out of the narrative (I assume intentionally) ... like the helicopter and cars didn't arrive within seconds of Grace calling 911. I guess the cars could have been there sooner - so probably they arrived and put Jonathan in the back of one until the copter arrived but still, what happened after Grace hung up from 911? She calmly said to Jonathan (who honestly was not a threat at that point) - hey hon I called 911 on you so let's sit at the kitchen table until they arrive, ok? 

Same with the Elena/Grace interactions. TBH we've been presented almost as much evidence that Grace could have had an affair with Elena, been professionally reprimanded about it and lost her practice compared to the info we also know about Jonathan. It's unclear when any of her patient interactions have really been happening. MAYBE JONATHAN AND GRACE ARE THE SAME PERSON BUT NICOLE AND HUGH GRANT ARE MEANT TO EMBODY DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE PSYCHE! (kidding - mostly)

 

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