S15.E17: Unity

[BabySpinach]

"Unity" - (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (TV-14, LV) (HDTV)

ONE WAY OR ANOTHER - Dean (Jensen Ackles) hits the road with Jack (Alexander Calvert) who needs to complete a final ritual in the quest to beat Chuck (guest star Rob Benedict). A difference of opinion leaves Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Castiel (Misha Collins) behind looking for answers to questions of their own. Catriona McKenzie directed the episode written by Meredith Glynn (#1517). Original airdate 10/29/2020.

[Jediknight]

Guys, the Holy Grail is the bunker.  The Winchesters have the Holy Grail.  The knight said it wasn't supposed to pass the seal.  No wonder everything is screwed up.

I swear, the only direction given to the guy playing Adam was that he had to act like Taika Waititi.

[BoxManLocke]

I don't even know what to say.

 

This show is such a mess and beyond saving, the only plan that made any sense was Billie's after all. Resetting everything sounded great for a second.

 

But we're stuck with Jack dying as a supposedly nailbiting cliffhanger. You know the guy who already died 18 episodes ago, and was supposed to die now anyway.

 

Don't know what ridiculous shit they're going to do next but I just want this to end.

 

The only thing I learned from this ep is that putting a card with the character names on it right before scenes sure doesn't make anything better. Also lmao at fucking Amara of all characters getting one.

[BabySpinach]

Positive: Only Ingrid Bergman rivals Jensen Ackles' ability to hold tears in his eyes while still looking breathtakingly beautiful. 

... Yeah, that's all I got.

This episode... wow. Dean's gonna need an extended hospital stay after the semi that was repeatedly mowed over him. Funny how in over 14 seasons of the show, Dean was almost always the skeptic and Sam was the single-minded ends-justify-the-means guy, but now they completely switch personalities for no discernible reason. Congrats to Meredith Glynn for finally finishing the Koolaid. She, Berens and Dabb will now have to fight each other over the "Hates Dean Winchester the Most" award.

What I'm dreading most is the "meta" that will undoubtedly come up on Tumblr like clockwork. Yet another addition to the "abusive, neanderthal Dean" dreck, how Sam and Cas and Jack are the sweet cinnamon rolls who need to teach him how to behave. But this crop of hacks has characterized and framed Dean this way so often these past years that it's an official pattern by now. Jensen has done his best to soften it, but he can only do so much.

I also realize that my priorities and values are very different from what the show is trying to sell me. When Dean yelled that Jack wasn't family, I cheered. When I heard Billie's big, "evil" plan to put everything back to where it should be, my first thought was, "sounds good to me!" When Sam mewled and whined over and over about finding another way because they "don't give up on family," I was reminded of Dean's willing sacrifice in season 11, and how the last time they tried to find another way, Michael got out and Jack lost his soul and jumpstarted this newest mess. It's almost comical how dangerously pig-headed and reckless Sam and Cas are. Dean's got Jack literally about to blow up in front of them with minutes to spare, and they're still nattering on about finding another way. 

Point to me for calling out Billie as the "real" villain (in Dabb and sycophants' eyes)! Guess this is how they'll explain Dean's death books. Maybe he was intended to be her successor and she wanted to prevent that, so she lied about his fate?

What a deeply offensive end to Amara's character: literally absorbed into a male one and losing all her agency and personhood because her feefees were hurt. As a bonus, Dabb gets to be rid of yet another of Dean's stories and relationships that only belonged to him. His unique and undefined bond with Amara gets tossed into the trash like it was nothing! 

I'm sure that Dean will be made to grovel in the next episode. It's as predictable as that crappy brand of Tumblr meta by now. They're two sides of the same coin.

Awful, just awful.

Edited October 30, 2020 by BabySpinach

[PAForrest]

Die, don't die Princess Jackie Poo Sue. Like Chuckles said, I'm over it. Can't pay me enough money to care. The character is such a black void - which is ironic given the circumstances.

Otherwise, what is the story, really - aside from hating on Dean? Frankly a reset is exactly what this show needs - reset to a time before it became Drabbernatural.

Zero surprises, zero plot twists. Oh, and apparently getting into Billie's library is even more anticlimactic than finding out all Crowley had to do was open a back door down the hall from Hell's dungeon to find Purgatory. D'oh!

This show really is going to need a six-episode fix-it like whoa.

Seeing Rachel Miner again was the one bright spot.

Edited October 30, 2020 by PAForrest

[Frost]

Ugh.  If I hadn't watched Supernatural from the beginning, I would pretty much hate Dean right now. 😒   They threw the Amara/Dean relationship away completely?  It ultimately meant absolutely nothing?  The bond that Chuck didn't write, so somehow it came out of the ether, all by itself?  But now it means nothing.  I'm not prone so swearing, but that's an F U.

And I really don't get the problem with Billie's plan.  Just because some people that Sam cares about, that actually should be dead, would be dead because of the reset, he absolutely refuses to consider it?  And Dean's the selfish one?  Angels back in Heaven, Demons back in Hell, no more interference on Earth.  Sounds good to me.

[tennisgurl]

I swear, I kept waiting for the show to tell us that Dean was actually possessed again or that Chuck was taking him over or something, he was acting so ridiculously out of character. I don't know how he was able to say dialogue, he spent the whole episode under the bus that the show has thrown him under. What a crap episode, probably the worst one they have had in quite some time, and that is really saying something. They are just so desperate at this point to make Dean the bad guy, its absolutely ridiculous, even when its totally out of character. Since when does he say that Jack isnt family? Hasn't that been the whole thing? That even when Jack killed Mary, Dean moved past it because Jack was family? Pulling a gun on Sam? Being all weird and twitchy about Chuck? Being alright with people dying? Deans whole thing is saving people! Its one of the biggest aspects of his character! Its like I missed a few episodes to get to this point, or that the writers knew absolutely nothing about Dean as a character. I know that many of the current behinds the scenes types hate Dean, but this just takes it over the top, even by their standards. This episode is really this shows problems in a nutshell, the characters lose everything that made them interesting, sympathetic, and compelling. Dean is the jerk, Sam is the hero, Cas is around sometimes, and Jack is the woobie Macguffin. 

Oh no, Billie had her own agenda? Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal! I guess thats the end of Amara? Easily manipulated by her dumbass brother because of her weepy feelings about Dean, and absorbed into him. Remember when Amara was supposed to be some kind of big deal? Yeah, your doing a bang up job at dealing with criticisms about how you write your female characters, show. Also, is Billie's plan so evil? I guess the hunters from the AU verse would die, but most of them are dead already, so I think I am missing why Billie being God is so much worse than Chuck destroying everyone. 

It was at least nice to see Alessandro Juliani, and his Adam was fun and it was nice seeing Adam in this whole thing. Plus Rachel Miner was fun and I am glad she got to pop by again. Other than that, this was just a terrible, terrible episode, written by people that apparently don't care at all about these characters and ending this show with any dignity. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by tennisgurl

[DeeDee79]

Wow. I'm so glad that I stopped watching. I lurk after a new ep airs to see if I'll be enticed into watching live again but it sounds like Dean is being pummeled repeatedly week after week by Dabb and Co. I'm going to skip this episode as well and sit the rest of this season out.

Edited October 30, 2020 by DeeDee79

[Bobcatkitten]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

I swear, I kept waiting for the show to tell us that Dean was actually possessed again or that Chuck was taking him over or something, he was acting so ridiculously out of character.

Well he was. Chuck wrote/manipulated him to try to get him to kill Sam - his preferred ending. So Dean wasn't being the Dean we know. And in the end the brothers still resisted. That's honestly the only thing helping because that was freaking painful. We only have a few hours left of Dean Winchester and to see him as that was rough. 

[PAForrest]

8 minutes ago, Frost said:

And I really don't get the problem with Billie's plan.  Just because some people that Sam cares about, that actually should be dead, would be dead because of the reset, he absolutely refuses to consider it?  And Dean's the selfish one?  Angels back in Heaven, Demons back in Hell, no more interference on Earth.  Sounds good to me.

My thoughts exactly.

23 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I also realize that my priorities and values are very different from what the show is trying to sell me. When Dean yelled that Jack wasn't family, I cheered. When I saw Billie's big, "evil" plan to put everything back where it should be, my first thought was, "sounds good to me!"

Me too! And again, yes, a reset sounds like a real plan!

Clearly I'm not that 30% or less of the audience that Drabb et.al. claim to care about or are writing for.

[gonzosgirrl]

Watched it. Hated it. And what I didn't hate, I didn't care about at all. St. Sam, this character being played by Misha Collins (no idea who this disciple of St. Sam the Wise is) and the nougat baby all make me want to hurl. The only line that didn't ring false was Sam asking Dean if he ever got tired of saying the shit he was saying. Meta, squared. 

I will now forget this episode exists. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Actually,  two more things.  Jared's love of the ending becomes more understandable by the minute. And for someone who continually says he cares about Dean's legacy, I can't understand how Jensen agreed to let them do this to Dean. I guess he really did just give up and wait for it to be over. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

Remember when Sam was furious at Dean for stopping him from finishing the trials (which would have closed the gates of hell) because he didn't want Sam to die...even though Sam was the one who made the decision to stop?  And how mad he was at Dean "taking away his agency"?

Remember when they had to re-sink the Titanic even though it would mean that Ellen and Jo would die again? (And the 50,000 or so descendents of the Titanic survivors).

Remember when Dean learned about the Natural Order and believed that what was dead should stay dead?

Remember all the times when Sam's way became the "only way" and Dean accepted it; and all the times Dean's "only way" was ignored or brushed aside (and how the "other way" always led to something much worse?)  

And of all the "resurrections" that'll be dead again...right now, Eileen is the only one resurrected who's still around.   Everyone else (Bobby, Mary, Charlie...) is either dead again  or a replacement from AU world.  So Sam is stopping all the resets (and going against the natural order) just to save his new girlfriend?  But it's all Dean's fault?

 

 

 

[ahrtee]

And actually, the only humans who've been resurrected over and over and have gone against the natural order are Sam and Dean--so they should be the first (and possibly only) ones to die, which should solve all their problems.  (Cas and Jack would be the Empty's problem, not Billie's).  

And of course Billie can undo the stupid retcon rule about no one who's been to hell can get into heaven, so Eileen (if she dies again) and Kevin can finally be happy.  Shouldn't that be something Sam would want?

Edited October 30, 2020 by ahrtee

[Aeryn13]

Pretty much as expected. Dean got hit by a semi repeatedly. Sam wore a halo and Cas polished it. 

And seriously, this is Amara's ending? If they are equally powerful, why does any kind of "unity" have one come out on top of the other?

[Pondlass1]

The storyline is such a complete mess I can’t invest in any of it.  But both Jensen and Jared look so tired and worn down.  Jensen’s phoning it in and Jared’s back to stuttering lines a la William Shatner.  And at this point does anyone but the twits at Twitterverse give one fuck about Jacko?
 

The segment entitled Dean should’ve been titled Baby Driver cuz that’s about all Dean actually did. SuperSam at least found God’s book.

Ahgggh! This show is making me crazy!

[BoxManLocke]

Did anybody else think Jack with his little school bag looked like a randomly generated Pokemon main character

[tennisgurl]

Its kind of funny that, as much as the show is pushing a "Dean is a jerk and Sam is awesome and puts up with his jerk brother" agenda, I don't think that anyone is coming off great here. Sam just seems super whiney and childish, and downright hypocritical in how mad he is at Dean for not telling him about the Jack stuff right away considering all the stuff that Sam has kept from him over the years, Cas is hardly even here anymore, and for a character who the show has clearly been re-tooled around, Jack hardly did anything this week, he just reacted to stuff and was mildly unhappy about Mean Dean being Mean. Nobody wins! Including us, the poor poor audience. 

So why is Billie's plan so evil again? Its not perfect, but isnt everyone going back to where they belong better than Chuck destroying everything? I was waiting for them to say that, since all of our heroes have died and come back a few times, that they would all die too, but apparently it would just be Eileen now, and while I like Eileen, is that worth everything? 

[Myrelle]

This was one of the worst episodes of the entire series, AFAIC.

I'm still kind of stunned at how bad it was.

[BoxManLocke]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

So why is Billie's plan so evil again? Its not perfect, but isnt everyone going back to where they belong better than Chuck destroying everything? I was waiting for them to say that, since all of our heroes have died and come back a few times, that they would all die too, but apparently it would just be Eileen now, and while I like Eileen, is that worth everything? 

 

It's incredible that after all those times the brothers had apparently grown through learning that choosing to save each other or a single person instead of making the difficult sacrifice for the greater good made things worse every single time, Billie's plan not only isn't even considered, they're actually going to kill her because of it.

 

Billie is the new showrunner we all need.

[SueB]

Well that was intense. 
 

it hurt to hear Dean say Jack wasn’t family.  I think it’s his anger. He’s so focused on killing Chuck.  He spent his life NOT being John.  Not giving into an all-consuming hatred.   But he sure felt like he was channeling John.  The coldness with which he proceeded.  The way he KNEW it was wrong but used the ends to justify his actions.  All this was Not!Dean.  It was Dean completely surrendering to his anger.  And it was hard to watch. 
 

And of course Sam, and only Sam, is going to pull him back from the edge.  It’s way they are successful.  In every other incarnation, they are not unified.  But they are in this Universe.  It’s not stubborn.  It’s love (brotherly).  Agape love.  In this version Dean taught Sam what agape looked like and Sam didn’t give up on Dean.  He threw himself in front of Dean’s anger because he knew that this cold & angry Dean was not his true nature.  And once again, Sam’s well-justifies faith in who Dean is pulls Dean back from making a mistake he ultimately would not have been able to live with.  And honestly, Sam pulling Dean out of the mental distortion he was experiencing is just normal ‘balance’ for the brothers.  Certainly (IMO) ‘there ain’t no Sam if there ain’t no Dean’.  So, I’m cool with Dean listening to Sam.  Dean was already 3/4ths the way there. If he wasn’t, Sam wouldn’t have gotten through to him.  
 

Other bits:
- I feel like TFW DID beat Chuck.  Chuck REALLY thought he could exploit Dean’s anger and again... TFW stopped his preferred ending. 
- I’m NOT happy he ‘absorbed’ Amara.  I hope she breaks out.  Give him indigestion Amara! I really like her and, again, Chuck manipulates her.  
- Adam was ‘meh’, but he feels like a Chuck plant. 
- I totally buy Death got duped by Chuck- and that Chuck has manipulated Death’s weaknesses.  
- I love seeing ‘Meg‘ again.  Her personality suited The Empty.  It’s a nice fit IMO. 
- Jack breaks mY heart.  He feels so worthless (because of Mary).  And it’s not just Dean’s anger.  He already imprinted on all of TFW, he was always going to feel worthless because of Mary.  But it’s hard to see that lack of self-worth.  
- I could have done without Angelic fans.

Bottom line:  they’ve sprung the trap.  We all saw it coming.  Now we’re off the edge of the map.  I’m anxious and excited to see where it goes.  

[Aeryn13]

Also, getting into Death's library and Chuck's book...

"I'm sure that will be hard..."

"Actually, it's gonna be super-easy, barely an inconvenience."

 

[7kstar]

Is the plot driven OOC of dean's fight with Sam near the beginning,  If I watch the first 15 minutes, is that enough to give to this ep?  I'm prepared that it won't be something I'll enjoy.  I did give up my cable so I'll have to watch on the CW website.

How I wish that all the guesses had been wrong.  So once again, something from season 4 was done better than now?  That is so sad.

[ahrtee]

I will say that when Dean got all loud and frantic about having to kill Chuck *now* and waving his gun around, particularly aiming at Sam, I kept thinking that it was another of Chuck's rewrites, just like his having Dean go "I have to kill Jack now" with the SuperSpecial gun at the end of last season.  After all, wasn't Chuck's original ending that Dean kills Sam (or vice-versa)?  And I do think that was what Chuck was saying (or hinting) with Amara while all that was happening--that he's omniscient, and everything was playing out just the way he intended.  (Until, of course, it wasn't, just like 14.20).

So if that was the intention of the writers, it definitely wasn't clear enough, and maybe the blame should go to the director as well.  

That's all I've got in terms of hope--that Dean was actually strong enough (with Sam's help, of course...*sigh*...) to break free of Chuck's writing and *not* do what he was supposed to.  But of course that's only visible to those of us who are looking for Dean hope, and not just taking things at face value. *ugh*  

[shoetingstar]

So this may be redundant, my apologies, BUT A half human, half ark-angel can kill GOD!Chuck? Adams Rib can create life but also kill GOD!Chuck. YET we got that scene between Jackie Boy and lame Hippy Adam (did he and Serafina think they were in an Adam Sandler movie?) making the point that all living things are DIVINE because God is in all creation. So that tells me if you could even kill God =  You would be killing everything he created including crystal rocks and you know, yourself.

4 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

I don't even know what to say.

 

This show is such a mess and beyond saving, the only plan that made any sense was Billie's after all. Resetting everything sounded great for a second.

 

But we're stuck with Jack dying as a supposedly nailbiting cliffhanger. You know the guy who already died 18 episodes ago, and was supposed to die now anyway.

 

Don't know what ridiculous shit they're going to do next but I just want this to end.

 

The only thing I learned from this ep is that putting a card with the character names on it right before scenes sure doesn't make anything better. Also lmao at fucking Amara of all characters getting one.

I was seriously liking Billie's deal with The Empty! Angels go back to heaven, DEMONS go back to hell...Like Sam what's your damage dude? But I guess it would reset some good as well.? I think - because it's hard to tell. It's like some bizarre jigsaw puzzle where someone's kid knocked all the pieces off the table. Then the puzzle was put back with NO respect for the pieces actually having to fit together as a coherent picture.

Edited October 30, 2020 by shoetingstar

[BabySpinach]

Amara's story was about being silenced and shut away for opposing her brother, a male entity, as an equal. She eventually found it in her heart to forgive him and gained appreciation for his creation while still being proudly herself. She was as powerful as God and deferred to no one. Yet she ends her time on the show by abandoning all that, including her special bond with a human that had nothing to do with her brother, over hurt feelings. She vanishes completely, voiceless and powerless again, while her brother stays exactly the same after having absorbed her. This character couldn't have had a more demeaning exit if they tried. A whole essay could be written on just how wrong this narrative choice was. I don't usually participate in discussions about the show's treatment of women, but come on...

This insulting mess could be somewhat redeemed if Amara's connection with Dean and her influence on Chuck, now that she's part of him, somehow helps to save the day (or serves any purpose at all), but I am loathe to waste any optimism on this raging dumpster fire.

[OrigamiNightmare]

I'm kinda Team Billie right now putting things back the way they were sounds pretty good. And I hope Jack dies, but I'm willing to bet he won't. I really miss the first five seasons of the show they were my favourites. Now I mostly tell people to watch the first five seasons, fanwank why Sam came back and then watch Fan Fiction and then be done.

[OrigamiNightmare]

1 hour ago, shoetingstar said:

So this may be redundant, my apologies, BUT A half human, half ark-angel can kill GOD!Chuck? Adams Rib can create life but also kill GOD!Chuck. YET we got that scene between Jackie Boy and lame Hippy Adam (did he and Serafina think they were in an Adam Sandler movie?) making the point that all living things are DIVINE because God is in all creation. So that tells me if you could even kill God =  You would be killing everything he created including crystal rocks and you know, yourself.

I was seriously liking Billie's deal with The Empty! Angels go back to heaven, DEMONS go back to hell...Like Sam what's your damage dude? But I guess it would reset some good as well.? I think - because it's hard to tell. It's like some bizarre jigsaw puzzle where someone's kid knocked all the pieces off the table. Then the puzzle was put back with NO respect for the pieces actually having to fit together as a coherent picture.

My thoughts exactly!

[Terese]

1 hour ago, shoetingstar said:

So this may be redundant, my apologies, BUT A half human, half ark-angel can kill GOD!Chuck? Adams Rib can create life but also kill GOD!Chuck. YET we got that scene between Jackie Boy and lame Hippy Adam (did he and Serafina think they were in an Adam Sandler movie?) making the point that all living things are DIVINE because God is in all creation. So that tells me if you could even kill God =  You would be killing everything he created including crystal rocks and you know, yourself.

I was seriously liking Billie's deal with The Empty! Angels go back to heaven, DEMONS go back to hell...Like Sam what's your damage dude? But I guess it would reset some good as well.? I think - because it's hard to tell. It's like some bizarre jigsaw puzzle where someone's kid knocked all the pieces off the table. Then the puzzle was put back with NO respect for the pieces actually having to fit together as a coherent picture.

Nothing about this season makes sense. Largely because the sole focus is about a showrunner/ writer and his revenge for not getting his damn spinoff. Why did anyone sign up for this contemptuous garbage? Once again, though, it absolutely increases my pleasure of seasons 1-11. My DVDs of 12-14 will make nice disposable coasters and candle holders over the holidays.

[ukgirl71]

I suppose it’s too much to hope for that Amara’s “you and I will always help each other” to Dean will actually come into play towards the finale?  That would maybe require much better writers than we’ve got.  Rob Benedict will never convince for me as a baddie.  And don’t get me started on the not so subtle two fingered salutes to the fans - we humans (aka the fans) are “boring”, and as for the raspberry - the contempt is pathetic (does Meredith Glynn want a job on Dabb’s next show?)
Was the rock test with hippy Adam 🙄a rip off of the Last Crusade Grail test, or am I reading too much into it?

Oh, that’s handy - remembering Sergei and what he was looking for after all this time (sarcastic much, moi?)  And Sam’s “internal compass is functioning perfectly” while Dean is being painted as the brainwashed ‘bad guy’ again?!  Good to see Rachel Miner again anyway.  And am I wrong for liking Billie’s supposed reset plot?

Jensen’s delivery of the speech about Chuck just having to die won me over, but to have him emotionally blackmailed by his little brother was just 🤮
I’m no ultra feminist, but that “ending” for Amara pee’d me right off - absorbed into a man, despite her own independence, love for the world (including us fans by extension?), she gets subjugated to Chuck God/Dabb.

 

[SueB]

Based on nothing but this episode... I don't think Amara is gone.  It DOES feel too anti-climatic.  And Chuck, like every other villain, forgot that those "two denim-clad nightmares" (TM Crowley) were left on the board.

Speaking of Crowley, I'm thrilled we got Meg, but I wonder if they had thought of bringing back Crowley for the body of the Empty?

Other things that make me go .....hmmmm.

Chuck as much as admitted, Amara and Dean can't hurt each other.  Dean could lie to her but ... not hurt her? And now he's absorbed Amara.

Did Amara just fool Chuck into achieving balance by taking her in -- and she's going to neuter his ass?  He won't be able to kill Dean?  Of course, he could still kill Sam -- which means you might as well kill Dean.  Did she become an honorary Winchester by sacrificing herself to stop Chuck? Which... puts the Winchester's record of changing the trajectory of characters to batting near 1000.  

And BTW, if there is a reset via Billy ...reset to WHEN?   Before Michael arranged a Cupid to have Mary and John fall in love? Before YED gave Sam demon blood?  Or... just, Dean dies from the Rawhead and Sam leads the demon army?  Or.. Dean lives but no deal for Sam?  Or Dean goes to Hell, but Cas doesn't get him out? (That was a pivotal moment, per Chuck in tonight's episode, where Cas goes off script). Death officially became a pawn in the Apocalypse time... maybe it's a reset to before Sam starts working with Ruby and brings back (unintentionally) Lucifer.  

Lots of questions.

Edited October 30, 2020 by SueB

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

 

Yeah I thought about y'all while watching, especially during the thankful monologue (barf) and the ridiculous flailing around at the end.

 

And the weirdest part is, the show props up Jack so much, yet doesn't really give him the opportunity to do anything. He barely had any lines in the ep, complete walking plot device.

 

The only thing I liked was Rachel Miner's appearance. It's cool that she got to be Meg one last time.

 

Also the audacity the writers had to drag around this pathetic excuse for a plot for an entire season only to reveal once again that Chuck had written pretty much all of it, again. I guess this explains the shitty pacing and plot contrivances ? This show is beyond parody.

I was wondering if it was written by Chuck when it started to swerve into high soap territory all of a sudden. I never thought that this Jack saves the world plot was really it however the way they choose to end it ... talk about going out with a whimper.

Poor Amara. She is stronger than him. I hope she joined him to take over. She's already shown that she deserves the job.

Dean was absolutely OoC. I guess Chuck finally found the right carrot.No more hamster wheel.

I didn't understand why Death in charge was so bad or why that was a revelation. I mean... Duh.Death has always been upfront about her expectations and the natural order.

What was the line about Sam shoukd be dead and Death was only keeping him around because she needed him? Obviously the it means something because Sam references it.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Based on nothing but this episode... I don't think Amara is gone.  It DOES feel to anti-climatic.  And Chuck, like every other villain, forgot that those "two denim-clad nightmares" (TM Crowley) were left on the board.

Speaking of Crowley, I'm thrilled we got Meg, but I wonder if they had thought of bringing back Crowley for the body of the Empty?

Other things that make me go .....hmmmm.

Chuck as much as admitted, Amara and Dean can't hurt each other.  Dean could lie to her but ... not hurt her? And now he's absorbed Amara.

Did Amara just fool Chuck into achieving balance by taking her in -- and she's going to neuter his ass?  He won't be able to kill Dean?  Of course, he could still kill Sam -- which means you might as well kill Dean.  Did she become an honorary Winchester by sacrificing herself to stop Chuck? Which... puts the Winchester's record of changing the trajectory of characters to batting near 1000.  

And BTW, if there is a reset via Billy ...reset to WHEN?   Before Michael arranged a Cupid to have Mary and John fall in love? Before YED gave Sam demon blood?  Or... just, Dean dies from the Rawhead and Sam leads the demon army?  Or.. Dean lives but no deal for Sam?  Or Dean goes to Hell, but Cas doesn't get him out? (That was a pivotal moment, per Chuck in tonight's episode, where Cas goes off script). Death officially became a pawn in the Apocalypse time... maybe it's a reset to before Sam starts working with Ruby and brings back (unintentionally) Lucifer.  

Lots of questions.

Our brains work very much alike. The Empty said that Sam was only still alive because she needed him. And Sam said that he would be lost in the reset... as well as Apocalypse people.I think the reset involves his resurrection there. It doesn't count here maybe or death assisted.

I agree about Amara. Her tears were because she had decided to help the Winchesters and she was crying for her brother. She said it would cause her great pain to imprison him. My guess is that she will imprison him and/or them. She's obviously the stronger one.

 

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, ukgirl71 said:

I suppose it’s too much to hope for that Amara’s “you and I will always help each other” to Dean will actually come into play towards the finale?  That would maybe require much better writers than we’ve got.  Rob Benedict will never convince for me as a baddie.  And don’t get me started on the not so subtle two fingered salutes to the fans - we humans (aka the fans) are “boring”, and as for the raspberry - the contempt is pathetic (does Meredith Glynn want a job on Dabb’s next show?)
Was the rock test with hippy Adam 🙄a rip off of the Last Crusade Grail test, or am I reading too much into it?

Oh, that’s handy - remembering Sergei and what he was looking for after all this time (sarcastic much, moi?)  And Sam’s “internal compass is functioning perfectly” while Dean is being painted as the brainwashed ‘bad guy’ again?!  Good to see Rachel Miner again anyway.  And am I wrong for liking Billie’s supposed reset plot?

Jensen’s delivery of the speech about Chuck just having to die won me over, but to have him emotionally blackmailed by his little brother was just 🤮
I’m no ultra feminist, but that “ending” for Amara pee’d me right off - absorbed into a man, despite her own independence, love for the world (including us fans by extension?), she gets subjugated to Chuck God/Dabb.

 

Amara's story has been feminist all along which is why it never played out like a traditional big bad storyline. I Always found her to be sympathetic and last night was heartbreaking.

[Castiels Cat]

12 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Amara's story was about being silenced and shut away for opposing her brother, a male entity, as an equal. She eventually found it in her heart to forgive him and gained appreciation for his creation while still being proudly herself. She was as powerful as God and deferred to no one. Yet she ends her time on the show by abandoning all that, including her special bond with a human that had nothing to do with her brother, over hurt feelings. She vanishes completely, voiceless and powerless again, while her brother stays exactly the same after having absorbed her. This character couldn't have had a more demeaning exit if they tried. A whole essay could be written on just how wrong this narrative choice was. I don't usually participate in discussions about the show's treatment of women, but come on...

This insulting mess could be somewhat redeemed if Amara's connection with Dean and her influence on Chuck, now that she's part of him, somehow helps to save the day (or serves any purpose at all), but I am loathe to waste any optimism on this raging dumpster fire.

I love how succinctly you put this. I am really hoping that her tears were for Chuck and not because of Dean's betrayal. I think she understands the power of Chuck's manipulative power better than most. I hope that she played him and plans to control him from within.

Perhaps she will transform into the goddess the world needs absorbing Chuck totally.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Bobcatkitten]

Last night I was SUPER pissed. This morning a little less so but still not happy. I get what they were going for - God manipulating Dean into the ending he wanted - brother killing brother. And Jensen, as usual, played the panic and desperation amazingly. It was difficult to watch because it wasn't Dean to me. And I only have a little bit of time left with him so to see that sucked. I get now why Jensen said he likes the ending but not how they got there. 

 

Good points to everyone pointing out once again that the writers screw women. Independent Amara gets absorbed into assy white man Chuck; and now POC/woman Death gets made the new big bad? 

[catrox14]

Weirdly, I only hated two things about this episode. Dean thanking Jack, when it's been Jack's decision, and Sam's  never ending  hypocrisy.

 Sam is just as manipulative as ever by using  Dean's unhealthy attachment to saving him against him here. It kind of felt like John telling Dean how proud he was of him for always taking care of the family, never crying about it, all before dropping the biggest bomb of all with the "Save Sam or kill Sam" thing. Sam basically gave Dean that same type of speech with saying how Dean has always protected him and guilt tripping him and frankly that felt like a tactic more than him necessarily truly appreciating Dean's sacrifices. JMHO.

IMO, Billie's plan wasn't all that terrible. Send everyone back to where they are supposed to be? I don't think Billie is really the big bad here anymore than Chuck at this point. If she sent AU Charlie and AU Bobby back, so what? They weren't the OG versions anyway. Send Cas and the angels back to Heaven and demons back to Hell? What's so terrible about that? Maybe Dean and Sam do really die with a reset or maybe they don't. I don't recollect that she said anything about doing away with monsters. So that could also mean taking the boys back to hunting only monsters.

Perhaps I missed something big, but how is that any worse than God wanting the Winchesters to be in his hamster wheel?  And destroying all worlds and this one because he wants them to kill each other? IMO,  all the opposition to that was just a redux of Point of No Return, which I still dislike more than this episode.

 

I hate how I know Dean's actions with Sam will be seen, the narrative of a supposedly mean and horrible Dean. Well, I am not buying it. I  really don't have any issues with Dean telling Sam that Jack is not family. Dean has never really been on board the Jack train.  He's never been unclear  to Sam and Cas of his issues with Jack. What he has done, that will be ignored by the narrative is that Dean is TRYING to make peace with Jack because he recognizes that Sam and Cas see Jack as family and he's tried for their sake. Unfortunately, the narrative doesn't give much room for Dean's voice to be a reasonable voice to Jack murdering Mary and his reservations all along.  At least Jeremy Adams allowed for Dean to say he is trying. 

I couldn't even get angry over this because it's just so stupid. And Jensen once more found the right way to play all of this garbage which maybe is why I didn't throw something at my TV. I'm just sad at the fall of this once great show.

 

[PAForrest]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Weirdly, I only hated two things about this episode. Dean thanking Jack, when it's been Jack's decision, and Sam's  never ending  hypocrisy.

 Sam is just as manipulative as ever by using  Dean's unhealthy attachment to saving him against him here. It kind of felt like John telling Dean how proud he was of him for always taking care of the family, never crying about it, all before dropping the biggest bomb of all with the "Save Sam or kill Sam" thing. Sam basically gave Dean that same type of speech with saying how Dean has always protected him and guilt tripping him and frankly that felt like a tactic more than him necessarily truly appreciating Dean's sacrifices. JMHO.

IMO, Billie's plan wasn't all that terrible. Send everyone back to where they are supposed to be? I don't think Billie is really the big bad here anymore than Chuck at this point. If she sent AU Charlie and AU Bobby back, so what? They weren't the OG versions anyway. Send Cas and the angels back to Heaven and demons back to Hell? What's so terrible about that? Maybe Dean and Sam do really die with a reset or maybe they don't. I don't recollect that she said anything about doing away with monsters. So that could also mean taking the boys back to hunting only monsters.

Perhaps I missed something big, but how is that any worse than God wanting the Winchesters to be in his hamster wheel? 

Since my post from last night is missing, I'll try and reconstruct a couple of my points. But I think this is a good place to start over, because I like everything you said here; and when it comes down to it, regardless of what the writer and showrunner want me to feel, I can honestly say nothing - literally nothing - Dean said or felt was anything I disagreed with. Well, except for your point about thanking Jackie Sue - that pissed me off too.

Other than that, Dean has never seen Jack as anything but a problem since he was hatched. And since Jackie Sue IS still and always will be the murderer of Dean's mother - heinous as she was - I do like that Dean has held onto that ember of anger, much as he tried very hard to live with it and get over it for everyone else's sake, because Dean wouldn't be human if he didn't. And since Dean is the most human character on the show. IMO it's completely in character for him to point out that Jack is not family in his opinion. Good for you, Dean - I fist-pumped that moment.

As almost everyone has pointed out, a reset sounds like a damn good plan to me! Because it is. Team Billie! The only reason Sam doesn't want it is because his girlfriend would go back to being dead. He sounds like a high school kid when his parents lose their jobs and they have to relocate to get new ones to keep him fed and clothed. You understand why a child would be distraught about something very personal to him that seems inconsequential to the family in the larger scheme of things, but it's not a good look coming from an almost 40-something-year-old man.

My husband walked past the tv when Chuck was on screen - he stopped watching years ago. I pointed out he was the Big Bad. He said, "That dweeb? Looks stupid." Yeah, he's right. Actually, he's more than a dweeb - Chuckles is a straight up OTT cartoon villain. He should have a thought bubble coming out of his mouth whenever he's on screen.

BabySpinach and ukgirl71 made excellent points about Amara's extremely misogynistic ending, which IMO is made so worse when it comes from a female writer. Amara is not this pathetic, she is not this weak, she should not be that easily manipulated by "that dweeb". Disgusting.

And as I said last night, finding the key to Billie's library in some old box the guys simply never got around to opening before now is as anticlimactic as realizing everything Crowley went through to find Purgatory was mind-numbingly stupid since the door was right down the hall from his own silly dungeon in Hell.

Oh, and I remember being happy to see Rachel Miner again. I don't even really care what role she plays on the show, it's just nice to see her show up.

No twists, no surprises, more bad writing. Like I said last week, it just makes me sad.

Edited October 30, 2020 by PAForrest
addition

[gonzosgirrl]

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I  really don't have any issues with Dean telling Sam that Jack is not family.

Probably the only good thing about this episode is that, while he did apologize to Jack for adding to his 'burden' or whateverthefuck that way, he did NOT tell him he was family.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Probably the only good thing about this episode is that, while he did apologize to Jack for adding to his 'burden' or whateverthefuck that way, he did NOT tell him he was family.

Not yet. 

The groveling will likely come next week in the Berens episode. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Myrelle
Wrong writer

[Scout Finch]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

Other than that, Dean has never seen Jack as anything but a problem since he was hatched.

And he would be correct! I finally started watching this on Netflix a couple of months ago and got caught up in time for the new episodes. I know from reading the threads here that pretty much no one likes Jack, either. I found out recently that a longtime friend of mine is into the show (she and her husband painted a demon trap on the floor of their Halloween props workshop/garage!). So I DMed her a couple of days ago to see if it was just the snarkier crowd here at Primetimer with an intense dislike and she said, "NO. Jeff and I are not fans of him and do not know why they introduced the character." What bothers me the most is that Cas, who is one of my favorites, is so obsequious to Jack. 😡 More so than Sam, I think.  

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, Scout Finch said:

And he would be correct! I finally started watching this on Netflix a couple of months ago and got caught up in time for the new episodes. I know from reading the threads here that pretty much no one likes Jack, either. I found out recently that a longtime friend of mine is into the show (she and her husband painted a demon trap on the floor of their Halloween props workshop/garage!). So I DMed her a couple of days ago to see if it was just the snarkier crowd here at Primetimer with an intense dislike and she said, "NO. Jeff and I are not fans of him and do not know why they introduced the character." What bothers me the most is that Cas, who is one of my favorites, is so obsequious to Jack. 😡 More so than Sam, I think.  

Cas was taken over by fetus!Jack in The Future and since then has only been a podperson whose sole purpose is to protect and praise Jack.  And there's no way anyone can convince me otherwise.  I don't know why Sam has adopted Jack so completely.  

[Aeryn13]

14 minutes ago, Scout Finch said:

And he would be correct! I finally started watching this on Netflix a couple of months ago and got caught up in time for the new episodes. I know from reading the threads here that pretty much no one likes Jack, either. I found out recently that a longtime friend of mine is into the show (she and her husband painted a demon trap on the floor of their Halloween props workshop/garage!). So I DMed her a couple of days ago to see if it was just the snarkier crowd here at Primetimer with an intense dislike and she said, "NO. Jeff and I are not fans of him and do not know why they introduced the character." What bothers me the most is that Cas, who is one of my favorites, is so obsequious to Jack. 😡 More so than Sam, I think.  

I think he has been introduced to appeal to a younger demographic. The brothers and Cas have aged out of a certain target audience so enter Jack, a cutesy teenage-looking guy (well, TV-teenage) who is sometimes emo, sometimes beige but always the apple of nearly everyone's eye. He is the Baby Yoda of Supernatural. And online he is popular with a younger demo.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Aeryn13

[Castiels Cat]

Dean loved Jack like a son until he killed Mary... end of story... 

He could not butcher Jack however that father son family bond if not broken completely is pretty far gone at the moment.

And this is surprisingly canonical for these hacks to do... Mary's death was the starting point for the show and everything about Dean evolved from that horrible moment. To relive it again because of someone he nurtured and loved and trusted must be killing him.

Frankly it shocks me that he forgave Cas.

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think he has been introduced to appeal to a younger demographic. The brothers and Cas have aged out of a certain target audience so enter Jack, a cutesy teenage-looking guy (well, TV-teenage) who is sometimes emo, sometimes beige but always the apple of nearly everyone's eye. He is the Baby Yoda of Supernatural. 

Eugenie stated at CC that their audience was the Riverdale crowd so yes. The idiot hacks deliberately screwed the pooch and dropped their numbers with bad writing and bad assumptions.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[tessathereaper]

14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think he has been introduced to appeal to a younger demographic. The brothers and Cas have aged out of a certain target audience so enter Jack, a cutesy teenage-looking guy (well, TV-teenage) who is sometimes emo, sometimes beige but always the apple of nearly everyone's eye. He is the Baby Yoda of Supernatural. And online he is popular with a younger demo.

That is an insult to Baby Yoda!😉  Even Baby Yoda is useful once in a while and not nearly as emo.  TV-Teenage is right though.  

Edited October 30, 2020 by tessathereaper

[gonzosgirrl]

Isn't it ironic that an episode called Unity has divided the fandom more than just about any in recent memory?

[Aeryn13]

Just now, tessathereaper said:

That is an insult to Baby Yoda!😉  Even Baby Yoda is useful once in a while and not nearly as emo.

Oh, I love BY. Unlike Jack he gets away with being treated, fawned over and coddled like a baby, though, by...being an actual baby. 😀

16 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean loved Jack like a son until he killed Mary... end of story... 

He could not butcher Jack however that father son family bond if not broken completely is pretty far gone at the moment.

And this is surprisingly canonical for these hacks to do... Mary's death was the starting point for the show and everything about Dean evolved from that horrible moment. To relive it again because of some8he nurtured and loved and trusted must be killing him.

Frankly it shocks me that he forgave Cas.

Eugenie stated at CC that their audience was the Riverdale crowd so yes. The idiot hacks deliberately screwed the pooch and dropped their numbers with bad writing and bad assumptions.

Yeah, she is very mistaken about that. SPN is way too old-skewing for the Riverdale-crowd. I think thr overlap is at best minimal.

[tessathereaper]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh, I love BY. Unlike Jack he gets away with being treated, fawned over and coddled like a baby, though, by...being an actual baby. 😀

Yeah, she is very mistaken about that. SPN is way too old-skewing for the Riverdale-crowd. I think thr overlap is at best minimal.

Oh I know you love BY, I was just kidding.

 

Wow, don't they have companies that, you know, keep track of demographics?  Shouldn't they KNOW that isn't the case?

[7kstar]

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

My husband walked past the tv when Chuck was on screen - he stopped watching years ago. I pointed out he was the Big Bad. He said, "That dweeb? Looks stupid." Yeah, he's right. Actually, he's more than a dweeb - Chuckles is a straight up OTT cartoon villain. He should have a thought bubble coming out of his mouth whenever he's on screen.

BabySpinach and ukgirl71 made excellent points about Amara's extremely misogynistic ending, which IMO is made so worse when it comes from a female writer. Amara is not this pathetic, she is not this weak, she should not be that easily manipulated by "that dweeb". Disgusting.

PA how I laughed when I read your first paragraph about Chuck.  I've never bought him as the big bad. 

Amara's ending sounds awful, but I still haven't watched.  I do hope she was playing him, but that would also mean giving these writers some credit.  I don't know that they can do it.  I wish I had stopped with last call.  But part of me needs to finish the train wreck.

I'm clear that Jack is to pull in younger audiences and to make Dabb feel better.  I think they are the only group he cares about.  But I do wonder if the backlash that is here will mean anything.  I know this group has more negative posts than it used to get.  But will the folks that hire writers think Dabb did a terrible job or will they say yes you did make many fans angry but they kept coming back for more punishment so I can see you'll do great in this job!  Just one problem they are forgetting...Dabb didn't build the fan base, so could he actually build one?

[shoetingstar]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

Based on nothing but this episode... I don't think Amara is gone.  It DOES feel too anti-climatic.  And Chuck, like every other villain, forgot that those "two denim-clad nightmares" (TM Crowley) were left on the board.

Speaking of Crowley, I'm thrilled we got Meg, but I wonder if they had thought of bringing back Crowley for the body of the Empty?

Other things that make me go .....hmmmm.

Chuck as much as admitted, Amara and Dean can't hurt each other.  Dean could lie to her but ... not hurt her? And now he's absorbed Amara.

Did Amara just fool Chuck into achieving balance by taking her in -- and she's going to neuter his ass?  He won't be able to kill Dean?  Of course, he could still kill Sam -- which means you might as well kill Dean.  Did she become an honorary Winchester by sacrificing herself to stop Chuck? Which... puts the Winchester's record of changing the trajectory of characters to batting near 1000.  

And BTW, if there is a reset via Billy ...reset to WHEN?   Before Michael arranged a Cupid to have Mary and John fall in love? Before YED gave Sam demon blood?  Or... just, Dean dies from the Rawhead and Sam leads the demon army?  Or.. Dean lives but no deal for Sam?  Or Dean goes to Hell, but Cas doesn't get him out? (That was a pivotal moment, per Chuck in tonight's episode, where Cas goes off script). Death officially became a pawn in the Apocalypse time... maybe it's a reset to before Sam starts working with Ruby and brings back (unintentionally) Lucifer.  

Lots of questions.

I've been racking my brain. What I came up with was either 1-stopping Cas from pulling Dean out of hell. Which was hinted at, OR 2-going back to Young!Mary and making sure she doesn't do the deal with YED. She marry's John, has Dean and Sam, but no Demon comes to kill her and "tag" Sam. No Widowed John raising them in the wild, so to speak. No hunting for anyone. Billie doesn't have to worry about them coming back from the dead in this timeline. 

8 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I was wondering if it was written by Chuck when it started to swerve into high soap territory all of a sudden. I never thought that this Jack saves the world plot was really it however the way they choose to end it ... talk about going out with a whimper.

Poor Amara. She is stronger than him. I hope she joined him to take over. She's already shown that she deserves the job.

Dean was absolutely OoC. I guess Chuck finally found the right carrot.No more hamster wheel.

I didn't understand why Death in charge was so bad or why that was a revelation. I mean... Duh.Death has always been upfront about her expectations and the natural order.

What was the line about Sam shoukd be dead and Death was only keeping him around because she needed him? Obviously the it means something because Sam references it.

OOC Dean is so hard to watch. It's gutwrenching. 

Death has always been about order and what should be. However, I almost hate to give the writers any credit for anything logical or consistent with a past plotline! lol

1 hour ago, Scout Finch said:

And he would be correct! I finally started watching this on Netflix a couple of months ago and got caught up in time for the new episodes. I know from reading the threads here that pretty much no one likes Jack, either. I found out recently that a longtime friend of mine is into the show (she and her husband painted a demon trap on the floor of their Halloween props workshop/garage!). So I DMed her a couple of days ago to see if it was just the snarkier crowd here at Primetimer with an intense dislike and she said, "NO. Jeff and I are not fans of him and do not know why they introduced the character." What bothers me the most is that Cas, who is one of my favorites, is so obsequious to Jack. 😡 More so than Sam, I think.  

Too bad that already used the title Jump the Shark because Jack is a total Cousin Oliver and just as annoying.  (which reminds me of poor Adam!)