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gonzosgirrl

S15.E16 Drag Me Away (From You)

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26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe it's because the end is nigh, or maybe it's because the writing was just that bad and Dean fans have hadit, but I've read more negative commentary about this episode than any in recent memory.  Badd's sycophant really stepped in it. The fact he handed over one of the last few episodes of the series to his assistant is just one more item on the long list of reasons I loathe him.  

The bar is ridiculously low, but I actually think this was one of the best epis this season.  A lot of that probably had to do with no Jack, and pretty much nothing being said about the stupid stupid stupid stupid kill God plan.

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17 hours ago, Terese said:

 

Billie popping in with inexplicable knowledge of other worlds, makes no sense to me. I

Billie knew back in s13 about other  universes because she knew that Jack ripped a hole to the AU so why wouldn't she know that Chuck was destroying those worlds?

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25 minutes ago, Katy M said:

The bar is ridiculously low, but I actually think this was one of the best epis this season.  A lot of that probably had to do with no Jack, and pretty much nothing being said about the stupid stupid stupid stupid kill God plan.

Still way too much of it in there for my taste, but it's almost over with.

So at least there's that.

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13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Billie knew back in s13 about other  universes because she knew that Jack ripped a hole to the AU so why wouldn't she know that Chuck was destroying those worlds?

Sam, Dean, Castiel, Mary, Ketch,  practically everyone knew about the rift and saw the rift opened by Jack's birth. That has nothing to do with Prime Earth's Death having the ability to watch other universes anymore than other Deaths would be able to do the same.

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41 minutes ago, Terese said:

Sam, Dean, Castiel, Mary, Ketch,  practically everyone knew about the rift and saw the rift opened by Jack's birth. That has nothing to do with Prime Earth's Death having the ability to watch other universes anymore than other Deaths would be able to do the s

Billie is a supernatural entity. She is Death now. She has access to the  Empty which seems to be across all Universes. There is no reason why she wouldn't have knowledge of the destruction of other universes, IMO.

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3 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

Everybody remembers there were several scenes like this literally years ago, where one of the brothers withheld something for a little while and when they finally came clean, the other one reacted calmly and took it as a good thing. Those scenes were heartmwarming, they showed growth, maturity and acceptance.

 

So stupid of the writers to think they could rewind, pretend that never happened and hope everybody would take it at face value. Nobody's buying this shit, and it's insulting

This happened when Sam confessed to keeping his secret dealings with the BMOLs from Dean and it was exactly what I was thinking of when Sam had this most recent hissy fit. 

I can even remember Badd's answer to the question of whether Dean would be allowed to be angry with Sam over this as being one of "Nobody wants any  I-told-you-sos"

Guess it's all different when the roles are reversed then.

So I'm left wondering who is really the more mature and evolved character where it concerns the real issues on this show. 

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Just now, catrox14 said:

Billie is a supernatural entity. She is Death now. She has access to the  Empty which seems to be across all Universes. There is no reason why she wouldn't have knowledge of the destruction of other universes, IMO.

Yes, I realize our opinions differ, and you may very well be right.

For me, when they said that AU Death was bound, it naturally suggested that each universe had their own Death, that would be concerned with their world. That would be each having their own jurisdiction and concerns pertinent to their worlds. So, Billie, by that reasoning, should not be privy to other worlds, beyond the understanding of their existence. Although, she could be gaining info from the Empty. But, then it is still 2nd 3rd hand information. But everything feels like exposition, saying whatever, whenever, driving a plot point into the viewer's skull, without showing or explaining anything. 

I can't stand this show anymore. It's nothing like Supernatural. 

Well, my dear Catrox, I'm probably just done.

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I was really disappointed that they wasted one of the last episodes on this dreck. It was boring. There was no connection to the guest characters.  If it advanced the kill Chuck story, in some way, I didn’t see it,  Dean chatted with Billie in a diner.  Sam and Dean argue about stuff in the car.  If the stand alone story had been well written, I wouldn’t have cared.  I think it sucks that at the end of this series, it’s mostly just phoned in.  

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I’ve just finished watching this one, so a few random thoughts:

“Clunky” was the one word that sprung to mind for this ep - anvils, anvils everywhere - Meghan my dear, show, don’t tell!

I miss the OG Weechesters (in all their various incarnations) - this version just grated on me.

And speaking of grating, what is it with Lisa Berry’s pronounced, deliberate delivery?  Gets on my wick every.time.

Jared just looks sickly the way they have him styled these last few episodes (doesn’t help he’s too skinny I s’pose - hate you Padalecki 😅)

That last scene managed to produce bad acting from even Jensen.

 

 

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On 10/23/2020 at 10:43 AM, SueB said:

- Timing of this was supposed to be right before "Bad Boys".  This took place in Jan 1993.
- Sam got in "lore" and "so get this" one more time.  That was nice.

Which makes the image of young Sam playing with a toy airplane (out the window of the Impala) even more strange, if he's supposed to be the same kid from this episode, already dreaming of college.

I wonder if Dean will get one more "son of a bitch" in?

Oh yeah, I forgot,  they gave that to the nougat baby, too. 😞

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Yeah real quick just wanted to say that that last scene was bullshit and pretty much ruined the episode for me. Dean's blaming Sam as an excuse for not telling him the truth. Sam's over-the-top tantrum. DEAN CONVENIENTLY NOT MENTIONING THAT CAS IS CURRENTLY LOOKING FOR ANOTHER WAY.

I mean I know that Billie told Dean to "get his house in order", but since when does Dean take orders from anyone other than his dad? 

 

(To be clear, I'm not blaming Dean or Sam; I'm blaming the writers.)

Edited by KayCordingly
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2 hours ago, KayCordingly said:

Yeah real quick just wanted to say that that last scene was bullshit and pretty much ruined the episode for me. Dean's blaming Sam as an excuse for not telling him the truth. Sam's over-the-top tantrum. DEAN CONVENIENTLY NOT MENTIONING THAT CAS IS CURRENTLY LOOKING FOR ANOTHER WAY.

I mean I know that Billie told Dean to "get his house in order", but since when does Dean take orders from anyone other than his dad? 

 

(To be clear, I'm not blaming Dean or Sam; I'm blaming the writers.)

It is a truly bizarre character regression and out of character response for both Sam and Dean. 

They were shown to have grown so much in season 11; Dean accepting that Sam would carry the Mark, followed by Sam accepting that Dean would be the soul bomb. 

Also, Dean accepting what a cosmic being says at face value without question? Although, there may be a hint, in this episode, at Dean waking up and coming to his senses. He was placed in a trance, kneeling and ready to kill himself, then woke up.

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On 10/23/2020 at 8:16 AM, catrox14 said:

Honestly, Sam needs to STFU. His rant at Dean was stupid.

And frankly his anger made no sense at all.  It came out of the blue. Did Sam bother to ask Dean how long he had known about Jack's situation before flipping out?  Has Sam forgotten about all the situations he failed to tell Dean particular information, as recently as s12...and then got mad at Dean when Dean was angry with him after the fact, after the 411 or lack thereof resulted in something bad happening? This could have been handled by Sam and Dean in a better way that didn't leave Dean as the bad guy.  It could have been phrased that Sam was pissed because he was scared that Jack would die without him saying goodbye or something else.  It could have been written that Sam was really just scared about losing Jack and let Dean know that.     

I'm just tired about the fate of the world being all about the Winchesters.  Even the way Dean framed it in this episode, about Jack making the big sacrifice so Sam and Dean can live.  Uh...how about the other 7.5 BILLION people in the world?  I get that shows and movies about the fate of the world being in the hands of a handful of characters generally focus on those characters so the audience is concerned about them and not the countless billions off-screen, but sometimes there needs to be an acknowledgment that this game between God and the Winchesters isn't just about them.  Otherwise the whole thing just becomes a narcissistic and self-serving exercise.  "Yay, we killed God! The bunker is saved!"

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6 minutes ago, Terese said:

It is a truly bizarre character regression and out of character response for both Sam and Dean. 

They were shown to have grown so much in season 11; Dean accepting that Sam would carry the Mark, followed by Sam accepting that Dean would be the soul bomb. 

Also, Dean accepting what a cosmic being says at face value without question? Although, there may be a hint, in this episode, at Dean waking up and coming to his senses. He was placed in a trance, kneeling and ready to kill himself, then woke up.

Yes, the regression is what sucks the most. I mean this is some season 1-level pettiness. I honestly expected Sam to demand that Dean stop the car and let him out. I guess I'm just upset because contrived brother-angst has always been my least favorite part of Supernatural. And I'm sure what happened was that the writers were like "OK, it's the home stretch of the final season, and brotherly angst is a staple of the series, so let's have the brothers get into one last huge fight in order to really ramp-up the emotional stakes."

But they could have done this in a much more organic way. They pretty much had to force the brothers to act as unnatural as possible in order to pull the scene off. First of all, I don't think I can understate how important it was to tell Sam that Cas was looking for an alternative so that Jack didn't have to die. I mean for Chuck's sake it was literally the catalyst that set off the conversation! It should have went something like this:

SAM: I still can't reach Cas.

DEAN: Hang up the phone Sammy.

SAM: Why? Dean, what's going on?
DEAN: Cas is looking for another way to stop Chuck.

SAM: Why?
DEAN: Because if we do it our way, Jack dies.

 

See how easy that was?

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2 minutes ago, KayCordingly said:

Yes, the regression is what sucks the most. I mean this is some season 1-level pettiness. I honestly expected Sam to demand that Dean stop the car and let him out. I guess I'm just upset because contrived brother-angst has always been my least favorite part of Supernatural. And I'm sure what happened was that the writers were like "OK, it's the home stretch of the final season, and brotherly angst is a staple of the series, so let's have the brothers get into one last huge fight in order to really ramp-up the emotional stakes."

But they could have done this in a much more organic way. They pretty much had to force the brothers to act as unnatural as possible in order to pull the scene off. First of all, I don't think I can understate how important it was to tell Sam that Cas was looking for an alternative so that Jack didn't have to die. I mean for Chuck's sake it was literally the catalyst that set off the conversation! It should have went something like this:

SAM: I still can't reach Cas.

DEAN: Hang up the phone Sammy.

SAM: Why? Dean, what's going on?
DEAN: Cas is looking for another way to stop Chuck.

SAM: Why?
DEAN: Because if we do it our way, Jack dies.

 

See how easy that was?

Bravo! But then, the small minds that write this show couldn't have any fun watching Sam and Dean talking over one another and fighting. And more importantly, having Dean apologize to Sam later for his serious sin of keeping info from Sam for what, maybe a few days while Cas looks for something else. I say, let's tar and feather the current writers and then we can employ more sensible writers like you!!! The whole thing is just so sad going into the final few episodes of a record-breaking genre series.

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4 minutes ago, KayCordingly said:

Yes, the regression is what sucks the most. I mean this is some season 1-level pettiness. I honestly expected Sam to demand that Dean stop the car and let him out. I guess I'm just upset because contrived brother-angst has always been my least favorite part of Supernatural. And I'm sure what happened was that the writers were like "OK, it's the home stretch of the final season, and brotherly angst is a staple of the series, so let's have the brothers get into one last huge fight in order to really ramp-up the emotional stakes."

But they could have done this in a much more organic way. They pretty much had to force the brothers to act as unnatural as possible in order to pull the scene off. First of all, I don't think I can understate how important it was to tell Sam that Cas was looking for an alternative so that Jack didn't have to die. I mean for Chuck's sake it was literally the catalyst that set off the conversation! It should have went something like this:

SAM: I still can't reach Cas.

DEAN: Hang up the phone Sammy.

SAM: Why? Dean, what's going on?
DEAN: Cas is looking for another way to stop Chuck.

SAM: Why?
DEAN: Because if we do it our way, Jack dies.

 

See how easy that was?

Lol. That was easy. But then it wouldn't have Sam and Dean at cross purposes, providing the only tension, while they split up, not having each other's backs. I guess there are not enough legitimate stressors with the world ending.

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16 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I'm just tired about the fate of the world being all about the Winchesters.  Even the way Dean framed it in this episode, about Jack making the big sacrifice so Sam and Dean can live.  Uh...how about the other 7.5 BILLION people in the world?  I get that shows and movies about the fate of the world being in the hands of a handful of characters generally focus on those characters so the audience is concerned about them and not the countless billions off-screen, but sometimes there needs to be an acknowledgment that this game between God and the Winchesters isn't just about them.  Otherwise the whole thing just becomes a narcissistic and self-serving exercise.  "Yay, we killed God! The bunker is saved!"

That is an excellent point. I had a similar thought, when they reopened the rift to a dangerous apocalyptic world to save their mom and Jack. 

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10 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Bravo! But then, the small minds that write this show couldn't have any fun watching Sam and Dean talking over one another and fighting. And more importantly, having Dean apologize to Sam later for his serious sin of keeping info from Sam for what, maybe a few days while Cas looks for something else. I say, let's tar and feather the current writers and then we can employ more sensible writers like you!!! The whole thing is just so sad going into the final few episodes of a record-breaking genre series.

The pearl clutching the episode did was so annoying. "OMG, Dean is keeping this huge secret from Sam and if he doesn't tell him, Sam will never ever know".

Cas contacts Dean to ask if Sam already knows. Billie bitches at Dean to tell Sam. 

Here is a novel thought, if it is that important to you, cut out the middle man and tell Sam yourselves, you yokels. Dean is not your damn messenger app.

And all that is without the giant "duh" of this shocking notion of Nougat dying after taking out both God and Amara. What did everyone expect to happen? Daisies growing out of his butt afterwards? Jeez.

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55 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Here is a novel thought, if it is that important to you, cut out the middle man and tell Sam yourselves, you yokels. Dean is not your damn messenger app.

No, no.  They've read the rule book.  The boys can't find out anything until it's time for them to find out.  THEN everybody will always be talking about it all the time.

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2 hours ago, KayCordingly said:

I honestly expected Sam to demand that Dean stop the car and let him out.

OMG me too!!  I completely expected him to do the 'stop the car' thing.  But his "just drive" was worse in a way.  It's a miracle he's able to even sit in the car with that gigantic stick up his ass.

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On 10/24/2020 at 6:20 PM, Aeryn13 said:

And all that is without the giant "duh" of this shocking notion of Nougat dying after taking out both God and Amara. What did everyone expect to happen? Daisies growing out of his butt afterwards? Jeez.

Of course they did.  Jack is the Shining Profiterole given form and flesh after all, right? 

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I was just thinking that there was another aspect that was bugging me about Sam getting mad at Dean for not telling him that Jack was going to die (and allowing it, I guess).  It wasn't Dean's secret. It was Jack's.  If Cas hadn't broken Jack's confidence, Dean wouldn't even know.  If someone told me somebody else's secret, I'd keep it to myself.  Well, assumign it wasn't going to hurt anybody else. If Jack's secret was that he was going to sacrifice Sam, then yeah, tell Sam.  

It's also Jack's choice.  As much as I don't like Jack, I have to say he has the right to make his own decisions.

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On 10/23/2020 at 3:00 AM, SueB said:

Quick thoughts...

The Good:
- Young Dean trauma.  And now Dean admitting he was freaked out by it.  
- The villain, Baba Yogis (so?), was new to me.  Effectively creepy as a child’s nightmare come to life. 
- Conversation with Death.  I don’t trust her.  And why is she taking a powder? And I think that was a key puzzle piece.  
- A reminder that Sam and Dean’s mental/physical trauma started at age 6mo & 4 years, respectively. We’ve only witnessed 15 years.  
 

The Bad:
- The Weechester actors were okay but not spectacular, hard to embrace at this late stage. 
- Placement of a flashback in the season.  
- Dean as the heavy.   On the one hand, his fury last week has laid bare his desperation and it’s understandable.  On the other hand, it seems unlikely he’ll let it play out and we know that.  
 

The Ugly
- Secrets? Now?  At least it didn’t last long.   

Baba Yaga is the Russian striga. 

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21 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I was just thinking that there was another aspect that was bugging me about Sam getting mad at Dean for not telling him that Jack was going to die (and allowing it, I guess).  It wasn't Dean's secret. It was Jack's.  If Cas hadn't broken Jack's confidence, Dean wouldn't even know.  If someone told me somebody else's secret, I'd keep it to myself.  Well, assuming it wasn't going to hurt anybody else. If Jack's secret was that he was going to sacrifice Sam, then yeah, tell Sam.  

It's also Jack's choice.  As much as I don't like Jack, I have to say he has the right to make his own decisions.

Exactly right.

They want it all ways. Jack is a god-level being trapped in human form, and he's a grown man, capable of going on 'cases' with Castiel, and he's precious bean three year old who can't be trusted to choose his own breakfast cereal, never mind choose to sacrifice himself to save the universe. IOW he's whatever the writer of the week needs him to be at the moment.

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21 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It's also Jack's choice.  As much as I don't like Jack, I have to say he has the right to make his own decisions.

Also, considering that every time Sam knew about a potential sacrifice in advance he's always (except for the soul bomb) managed to guilt Dean out of it.  And usually winds up having someone else doing the sacrificing instead, which of course does wonders for Dean's guilt complex. 

So maybe Dean thought that Jack should have the chance not only to make his own decisions but to actually follow through on them without being coerced into something else.  

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21 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Also, considering that every time Sam knew about a potential sacrifice in advance he's always (except for the soul bomb) managed to guilt Dean out of it.  And usually winds up having someone else doing the sacrificing instead, which of course does wonders for Dean's guilt complex. 

So maybe Dean thought that Jack should have the chance not only to make his own decisions but to actually follow through on them without being coerced into something else.  

 I very nearly posted something similar somewhere last night(but much more wordy because well, that's me LOL) and I ended up deleting it, because I was worried I was somehow misremembering regarding Sam(and others) always managing to guilt or otherwise berate Dean out of it, usually in some gaslighty manner where they twist everything up to make him feel selfish, mean, inadequate, weak for even considering it, etc.

I mean look why we even have Amara around?  Because Sam and Castiel LIED to Dean, went behind his back and expressly did what he asked them not to do. If I was Dean i'd think twice about revealing anything to them as well esp someone else's secret.

 

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On 10/23/2020 at 9:49 PM, Terese said:

Yes, I realize our opinions differ, and you may very well be right.

For me, when they said that AU Death was bound, it naturally suggested that each universe had their own Death, that would be concerned with their world. That would be each having their own jurisdiction and concerns pertinent to their worlds. So, Billie, by that reasoning, should not be privy to other worlds, beyond the understanding of their existence. Although, she could be gaining info from the Empty. But, then it is still 2nd 3rd hand information. But everything feels like exposition, saying whatever, whenever, driving a plot point into the viewer's skull, without showing or explaining anything. 

I can't stand this show anymore. It's nothing like Supernatural. 

Well, my dear Catrox, I'm probably just done.

Well then she knows from the Books. She can look at the Books and see the futures of anyone. She sees the info there. Or she knows that all the other Death's are gone.

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On 10/23/2020 at 11:16 AM, catrox14 said:

Honestly, Sam needs to STFU. His rant at Dean was stupid.

And frankly his anger made no sense at all.  It came out of the blue. Did Sam bother to ask Dean how long he had known about Jack's situation before flipping out?  Has Sam forgotten about all the situations he failed to tell Dean particular information, as recently as s12...and then got mad at Dean when Dean was angry with him after the fact, after the 411 or lack thereof resulted in something bad happening? This could have been handled by Sam and Dean in a better way that didn't leave Dean as the bad guy.  It could have been phrased that Sam was pissed because he was scared that Jack would die without him saying goodbye or something else.  It could have been written that Sam was really just scared about losing Jack and let Dean know that.      

It sure as heck didn't come across as anything but Sam being pissed that he wasn't in the know...because Dean didn't think Sam could handle it.  and thats all

And I don't think Jared's acting here helped. I thought he way over played it that it became laughable. Or maybe he played it as written and directed. Either I felt sorry for both Jared and Jensen on that scene.

What I really want to know, is what does Billie really mean when she is telling Dean to get his house in order? It almost feels like a trap episode for Dean, meaning he might take it as he has to get everyone in in the plan for Jack to die but still kill God. And yet I feel like  there is really some other dumb lesson Dean has to learn (the metaphorical version of get his house in order).    

My hope is that neither of those things happen and Dean does his own thing that no one knows about.. one that saves them all, and doesn't go with either Jack's or Billies or whatever Cas is up to. Because that would be in character for Dean. Sadly, though, if he does come up with his own plan, and it does work, he'll get berated for it.

Overall, I didn't like this episode much, was distracted by how much the actor playing  Dean neither looked like nor embodied Dean like Dylan Everett did despite not looking much like Dean. The kid was a decent actor but i sure didn't think I was watching a young Dean Winchester.

And that may be a result of the writing and directing more than the youth actor himself. Young Sam, was just... There to stare at college guide and be picked on by mean old Dean and be Dean's guilt trip.

I've said it before, my worry is that the show is trying to turn Dean into John and the John that is a complete asshole not the young John who was idealistic. Given the lax treatment John got in Lebanon, I fear Drabb wants to make Dean into a worse father than John, by comparison.

Yeah this episode was just , yuck.

Getting one's house in order is literally what one armed with foreknowledge says to someone else who they know is going to die.

 

Ie... a doctor delivering terminal news to  patient who has months to live and no hope tells them to get their house in order.

 

I took it as a directive and a heads up to him specifically to say his good-byes and to make peace while he still can.

On 10/23/2020 at 8:24 PM, catrox14 said:

Billie knew back in s13 about other  universes because she knew that Jack ripped a hole to the AU so why wouldn't she know that Chuck was destroying those worlds?

Didn't she know because of Dean's books which is why they had the conversation toght there in front of them.

Edited by Castiels Cat
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On 10/24/2020 at 6:20 PM, Aeryn13 said:

The pearl clutching the episode did was so annoying. "OMG, Dean is keeping this huge secret from Sam and if he doesn't tell him, Sam will never ever know".

Cas contacts Dean to ask if Sam already knows. Billie bitches at Dean to tell Sam. 

Here is a novel thought, if it is that important to you, cut out the middle man and tell Sam yourselves, you yokels. Dean is not your damn messenger app.

And all that is without the giant "duh" of this shocking notion of Nougat dying after taking out both God and Amara. What did everyone expect to happen? Daisies growing out of his butt afterwards? Jeez.

Because of the magic plot armour that was Ouroboros.

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On 10/24/2020 at 6:15 PM, Terese said:

That is an excellent point. I had a similar thought, when they reopened the rift to a dangerous apocalyptic world to save their mom and Jack. 

Dean was wrong to force a teenaged girl at gunpoint to open that rift. Death tried to talk him out of it. It was a big mistake. I am a Deangirl and I  think he made big mistakes in s 13. It was his season to fall because of his ingrained need to save his family.

 

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4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean was wrong to force a teenaged girl at gunpoint to open that rift. Death tried to talk him out of it. It was a big mistake. I am a Deangirl and I  think he made big mistakes in s 13. It was his season to fall because of his ingrained need to save his family.

 

Which is why it sucks even harder that Sam and Castiel didn't let him redeem himself with the Malak Box. Sure, it didn't work with Jack, but Jack wanted out and is weak-willed. Dean wanted to stay in it and keep Michael contained and he is Dean. At this point I would have been happy to have the last two seasons play out without Dean (and I wouldn't have had to watch).

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6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Which is why it sucks even harder that Sam and Castiel didn't let him redeem himself with the Malak Box. Sure, it didn't work with Jack, but Jack wanted out and is weak-willed. Dean wanted to stay in it and keep Michael contained and he is Dean. At this point I would have been happy to have the last two seasons play out without Dean (and I wouldn't have had to watch).

I agree. There should have been a redemption arc for Dean however they unfortunately decided that they were writing for the Riverdale crowd.

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1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Well then she knows from the Books. She can look at the Books and see the futures of anyone. She sees the info there. Or she knows that all the other Death's are gone.

Billie said she just got back from the last world and watched it burn alive. She didn't read it in a book.

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On 10/23/2020 at 2:47 PM, PAForrest said:

I have to agree - in fact, I thought the 70's style motel room sets were hands down the best part of the episode. Takes me back to the good ol' pre-bunker days of motel hopping. I miss those days, so it was a welcome change of pace to see the effort put into recreating those sets again, one last time.

I loved the motel and it honestly got a lot of mileage with me. The motel plus the fairly creepy ghost/witch scenes honestly reminded me of the early episodes in the middle of the night feeding the baby. So I think I can give this one a bit more leeway than everyone else here. 

The kid actors were just okay. Particularly kidSam reacting to the Baba Yaga, but they had their moments. I really love the MOTW episodes, so this one ended up landing pretty solidly for me.

Honestly, I can't get worked up about the secrets and lies plots anymore. I just hope for a short duration. 

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I enjoyed it, and I’m sad that this is the last MotW! MotW are my favorites. 

Anyhow, I thought Baba Yaga was scary, but she’s always pretty scary as bogeymen go. The nest of child corpses was horrible, and I liked Dean’s reaction to it. I mean in that it seemed in character. Motels, diners, sibling relationships, and being on the road are all great — like someone said above, the show was playing all the hits. And I liked the idea of Sam and Dean needing to go back to this old, empty motel for this old school case.

The stuff I didn’t like: the last scene, when they’re fighting about how/when Dean told Sam about Jack’s secret, rather than discussing what to do about it...you know, like adults who don’t fly off the handle and hate each other.

I also didn’t like that the flashbacks had basically no emotional resonance at all — I actually liked the idea of the flashbacks but these just seemed really empty, the characters didn’t connect with each other. Some of that might have been poor acting, but I think some of it is that the writing was pretty emotionally shallow. Well, and also it’s weird seeing flashbacks in S15, because so many child actors who played the Winchesters have aged out of the role. The show can’t help that but it just feels strange to watch yet more wee!Sams and wee!Deans.

I didn’t like the stuff with the Book of Colleges. First of all, shouldn’t Sam be doing actual schoolwork if he’s so into school? He doesn’t have any schoolbooks in his bag, and then he’s playing board games with random kids instead of studying later on. The whole thing could have been handled much better if Sam kept getting distracted by schoolwork and was trying to study in the midst of this, rather than weirdly carrying around a Book of Colleges but never showing any other interest in school or really in anything non-monster-related. I also don’t mind Dean not liking the idea of Sam going off to school... in theory... because he’s got his own abandonment issues going on, and loyalty to their father, and he actually believes in their mission and isn’t impressed by Sam essentially shirking his responsibilities ...but I thought how that was handled was really clunky and out of character as well. Like, no complexity to either Sam or Dean’s feelings about Sam pursuing a different kind of life and leaving Dean and John to save the world on their own. Anyway, this is a retread of stuff that has been covered EXTENSIVELY so it feels strange for it not to be handled better.

I don’t care about the Billie plot line, it’s boring. All the stuff about Death and God and the Darkness and blah blah feels ESPECIALLY cheap nowadays. I don’t know if that’s because of how the last 6-8 months have changed our relationship to death or it’s the show or what. 
 

I guess at the end of the day...I enjoyed the pace of the episode, and the setting, and Baba Yaga, but the character stuff didn’t deliver. Too bad, but for years and years it has seemed like the writers haven’t actually watched the whole show and are having to go off of cliff notes at least in part...so, not surprising. 
 

What always makes me sad about Supernatural is that it always always always seems like it’s got this tantalizing “potential” to be really fantastic. Like I think even this had the potential to be a great episode! But instead it was just functional? Because the characterizations weren’t quite there, Baba Yaga wasn’t quite as threatening as her lore was, she didn’t quite work as a metaphor for anything interesting, and etc etc etc. Not terrible but not as good as it could have been. Something that I’ve said about SO many episodes and even seasons of this show! Ah well, at least it’s dying as it lived — with a frustrating amount of unfulfilled potential. 

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13 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I enjoyed it, and I’m sad that this is the last MotW! MotW are my favorites. 

Anyhow, I thought Baba Yaga was scary, but she’s always pretty scary as bogeymen go. The nest of child corpses was horrible, and I liked Dean’s reaction to it. I mean in that it seemed in character. Motels, diners, sibling relationships, and being on the road are all great — like someone said above, the show was playing all the hits. And I liked the idea of Sam and Dean needing to go back to this old, empty motel for this old school case.

The stuff I didn’t like: the last scene, when they’re fighting about how/when Dean told Sam about Jack’s secret, rather than discussing what to do about it...you know, like adults who don’t fly off the handle and hate each other.

I also didn’t like that the flashbacks had basically no emotional resonance at all — I actually liked the idea of the flashbacks but these just seemed really empty, the characters didn’t connect with each other. Some of that might have been poor acting, but I think some of it is that the writing was pretty emotionally shallow. Well, and also it’s weird seeing flashbacks in S15, because so many child actors who played the Winchesters have aged out of the role. The show can’t help that but it just feels strange to watch yet more wee!Sams and wee!Deans.

I didn’t like the stuff with the Book of Colleges. First of all, shouldn’t Sam be doing actual schoolwork if he’s so into school? He doesn’t have any schoolbooks in his bag, and then he’s playing board games with random kids instead of studying later on. The whole thing could have been handled much better if Sam kept getting distracted by schoolwork and was trying to study in the midst of this, rather than weirdly carrying around a Book of Colleges but never showing any other interest in school or really in anything non-monster-related. I also don’t mind Dean not liking the idea of Sam going off to school... in theory... because he’s got his own abandonment issues going on, and loyalty to their father, and he actually believes in their mission and isn’t impressed by Sam essentially shirking his responsibilities ...but I thought how that was handled was really clunky and out of character as well. Like, no complexity to either Sam or Dean’s feelings about Sam pursuing a different kind of life and leaving Dean and John to save the world on their own. Anyway, this is a retread of stuff that has been covered EXTENSIVELY so it feels strange for it not to be handled better.

I don’t care about the Billie plot line, it’s boring. All the stuff about Death and God and the Darkness and blah blah feels ESPECIALLY cheap nowadays. I don’t know if that’s because of how the last 6-8 months have changed our relationship to death or it’s the show or what. 
 

I guess at the end of the day...I enjoyed the pace of the episode, and the setting, and Baba Yaga, but the character stuff didn’t deliver. Too bad, but for years and years it has seemed like the writers haven’t actually watched the whole show and are having to go off of cliff notes at least in part...so, not surprising. 
 

What always makes me sad about Supernatural is that it always always always seems like it’s got this tantalizing “potential” to be really fantastic. Like I think even this had the potential to be a great episode! But instead it was just functional? Because the characterizations weren’t quite there, Baba Yaga wasn’t quite as threatening as her lore was, she didn’t quite work as a metaphor for anything interesting, and etc etc etc. Not terrible but not as good as it could have been. Something that I’ve said about SO many episodes and even seasons of this show! Ah well, at least it’s dying as it lived — with a frustrating amount of unfulfilled potential. 

I think you perfectly addressed how this episode MOTW failed to convey emotion and the argument dismissing reason. Maybe the fight and shutting down in the Impala  was supposed to convey how childish they are and how little they have grown. Except, they haven't been childish and have grown very much over the years. I feel they have been regressed the last year or more. Words were said instead of felt, with the young kids.  Dean suppresses his fears , Sam wants to have a normal life. But, as everything about this season, I feel we are told not shown. And so little of what we are told jives with what we knew to be true, that was revealed over time in a far more organic way. Or we already know it, because it is part of the long story we have experienced for years.(It ought to be a mandatory requirement for anyone who writes for the show to actually have watched the show)

Billie and everything about Billie irritates me. Expository! She's the tell, when there is no show. Are we supposed to believe everything she says? Is she just a plot device to move the story along? I don't  trust her. I don't know if Dean is under a spell, or is so about revenge that all he sees is red. Never asks a question. 

Anyway, Billie. That insufferable way she speaks; slowly enunciating every syllable and meaningful pauses for dramatic effect. She doesn't blink to look serious and intimidating. She's a comic book character come to life. Exaggerated facial expressions with a few cheap menacing words. "Messengers of God's destruction!" I see a balloon around everything she says. 

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16 hours ago, Terese said:

Anyway, Billie. That insufferable way she speaks; slowly enunciating every syllable and meaningful pauses for dramatic effect. She doesn't blink to look serious and intimidating. She's a comic book character come to life. Exaggerated facial expressions with a few cheap menacing words. "Messengers of God's destruction!" I see a balloon around everything she says. 

Well, what would you expect under Badd's tenure? After all, he is first and foremost a comic book writer. That explains many things about why this show has become the mere shadow of what is once was. I mentioned, back in S7/S8 that these writers need to be required to watch the complete show as background for the characters before putting down one word in a script. I think Robbie Thompson is the only one who did.

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11 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Well, what would you expect under Badd's tenure? After all, he is first and foremost a comic book writer. That explains many things about why this show has become the mere shadow of what is once was. I mentioned, back in S7/S8 that these writers need to be required to watch the complete show as background for the characters before putting down one word in a script. I think Robbie Thompson is the only one who did.

You either die a hero or live long enough to be written by Dabb and co.

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4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

You either die a hero or live long enough to be written by Dabb and co.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry with that one.

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