Seduced: Inside The NXIVM Cult - General Discussion

[MicheleinPhilly]

8 hours ago, dbklmt said:

Are you "READY"?   I'm "READY" for Keith to be sentenced to life imprisonment.  His sentencing is scheduled for October 27th.  I'm eagerly awaiting waking up to good news that he's going away for the rest of his life!

The hearing is scheduled to begin at 11 a.m. ET. I know that India intends to testify and I'm hoping a BOATLOAD of these other women do too. 🤞 

[EdnasEdibles]

6 hours ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

The hearing is scheduled to begin at 11 a.m. ET. I know that India intends to testify and I'm hoping a BOATLOAD of these other women do too. 🤞 

I just read. He was sentenced 120 years in prison. 

[MicheleinPhilly]

18 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I just read. He was sentenced 120 years in prison. 

Victim impact statements can be found here:

https://frankreport.com/2020/10/27/last-updated-300-a-m-the-sentencing-of-keith-alan-raniere-with-frequent-updates-as-the-hearing-proceeds/

Rot in hell. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Of all the things that were said about Keith in the first episode, I bet the thing that would upset him the most was the cult expert pointing out that Keith just copied crap from Scientology, EST, Ayn Rand, etc. and then saying that Keith was not an original thinker. The truth hurts, man!

Although some of the information is stuff I already learned from watching The Vow, this series is already SO much more succinct and informative. The Vow was bloated, rambling, and aimless, and it left me with a lot of questions. Seduced, on the other hand, presented lots of information (without being overwhelming) and has much better structure in its storytelling. Whoever edited The Vow could learn a huge lesson.  What's sad is that The Vow that THOUSANDS of hours of footage that Mark shot so they had primary sources (not just secondhand accounts) which should have made it the more compelling show, but after only one episode I already prefer Seduced so much more.

I feel like The Vow was deliberately skirting a lot of issues and only bringing up certain things. Seeing the footage they used in Seduced (which was obviously also shot by Mark) makes it clear that there were a lot worse things that The Vow could have added. I mean, rapeable babies? Daughters who LIKED being sexually abused by their fathers until they learned that society disapproved? Knowing that The Vow chose not to show those clips makes it even clearer that The Vow was still trying to protect Keith, NXIVM, etc. and tried not to portray them as negatively as they could have.

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 10/26/2020 at 2:59 PM, Fleegull said:

A lot of gifted kids fall off later in life when they reach the age where their talents are no longer unusual. Clearly Keith fell off in college where he barely maintained a C average. It could be that he had high expectations for himself and upon realizing that he was no longer special, his entitlement led him to resent other successful people and caused him to curdle.

Another reason why gifted kids fall off when they're older is that when they're younger, their intelligence or talents mean that things come easily to them, especially compared to their peers (they're smart/talented compared to other nine year olds but not compared to, say, adults). But when they get older, they have to actually work to achieve things and they aren't used to it. Some choose to put in the work so they can continue achieving. Others get frustrated at having to put effort into it or not being prodigies anymore. Apparently some of them find ways to appear successful without actually doing any work aka pyramid schemes.

9 hours ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

I think this was the first time I learned that his given name is Anthony. How does one get from that to Nippy? Tony, sure. Ant, I can see it, maybe. But Nippy? 

Yeah, I don't get it either. I understand if you have a name that's considered unusual or old fashioned so you tell people to call you, say, Ace instead of Jebediah. But Anthony?

On 10/21/2020 at 10:18 PM, Coptop77 said:

Anyone else feel the Oxenbergs are kind of cashing in on this? I know its been said India wasn’t ready to talk but after watching this episode she seems very ready, almost mugging for the camera. Gives me a weird vibe so soon after the big India-free desperate rescue situation just watched in the Vow. 

To be fair, when Mark was getting all that footage shown on The Vow of Catherine trying to get India out, that was around 2018. India was still deep in denial about NXIVM, DOS, Keith, and her role in all of it. As she said, it took her 50 hours of therapy before she could even admit that she'd had sex with Keith. Leaving a cult doesn't mean that you magically go back to being the person you used to be. She had been indoctrinated with all of their crap for several years (I think she said that she joined in 2011?). It takes time to get out of that mindset and see that you've been manipulated and admit what you've done, what's been done to you, etc.

As for cashing in, I want to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that they just want to make sure that people know what really happened and what a dangerous predator Keith was. I mean, think of it this way: in this day and age, people get bent out of shape if their take out order is missing an item and will take the time to write a vitriolic review on Yelp. Now imagine if instead of some minimum wage worker forgetting to include your dipping sauce, your family member was manipulated into becoming a sex slave. Wouldn't you want to take every opportunity to tell the world what a monster Keith was and expose all of his horrible acts?

[Armchair Critic]

India comes off a bit as a spoiled rich girl, I want to hear from more of the women but I guess they couldn’t get many to go on camera.

[CrazyInAlabama]

The character testimony included the father of one of the teenagers in the cult, testifying for Keith, and saying his daughter wasn't a victim at all.

I hope they send him to Supermax in Colorado, it's supposed to be worse that death to go there. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Hearing how Mark tried to guilt trip India into not taking a temporary PAYING JOB is exactly the kind of shit he didn't want to show in The Vow. He can pretend that he always thought ESP and NXIVM were "a good thing," but this kind of controlling and manipulative behavior is exactly what you see in abusive relationships. They try to isolate the victims from everyone else and they use emotional blackmail (like guilt tripping) and shifting blame ("you're giving up on your ideology because you want your mom's approval") to try to get you to do what they want.

What makes that particular situation even more ridiculous is that it's not like India said she was moving away forever. She was going to be an assistant on a movie set. That's a few months tops. And why would a rational person (who is working for NXIVM for free) turn down a job that would give her money to, you know, pay for her endless NXIVM classes which cost $5K, $6K, and $10K?

Giving her an ultimatum was another huge red flag. If this self help group really wanted her to reach her full potential, they wouldn't have forced her to choose between committing her entire life to NXIVM and being able to do things like get a job.

Hearing Mark say that he never felt more like a man after taking JNESS tracks and then Allison saying that it was so empowering AFTER hearing all the misogynistic garbage that was taught was just gross. OF COURSE Keith was teaching them that men can do whatever they want and women just need to accept that their boyfriends and husbands are going to fuck other women. Putting the blame on the women for having an issue with it is just classic. But should I be surprised that someone who talked about raping cats and babies would say that?

Rape isn't rape if the victim doesn't see it that way! Rape is all in your mind! Complaining about abuse is abuse itself! The perpetrator is the real victim! The complaining victim is the real abuser!

I really felt for Naomi, the girl who was raped when her family was in the Children of God cult. I can't imagine going through that only to inadvertently join a different cult that claimed rape wasn't really rape.

FYI - Children of God the same cult that River Phoenix was in as a child in the 70s (his parents joined the cult when River was 3 years old and were in the cult for six years circa 1973-1979). He never really talked about it but in a 1991 interview with Details, he said that he "lost his virginity" when he was 4 years old aka he was sexually abused as a child. In 2014, River's brother Joaquin/Leaf, who is four years younger than River, said in a Playboy interview: "My parents had a religious experience and felt strongly about it. They wanted to share that with other people who wanted to talk about their experience with religion. These friends were like, 'Oh, we believe in Jesus as well.' I think my parents thought they’d found a community that shared their ideals. Cults rarely advertise themselves as such. It’s usually someone saying, 'We’re like-minded people. This is a community,' but I think the moment my parents realized there was something more to it, they got out."

Rose McGowan was also in the Children of God cult. Her father was in charge of one of the Italian chapters of the group but they left the group in 1978. In a 2011 interview, she said:

Quote

I remember watching how the [cult’s] men were with the women, and at a very early age I decided I did not want to be like those women. They were basically there to serve the men sexually-you were allowed to have more than one wife. [McGowan’s father had two wives: Terry, mother to Rose and her siblings Nat and Daisy; and Rebecca.] Women would bring people into the group however they could. The women would go to bars as lures [and pick up recruits]-they called it Flirty Fishing.

My father, who did the illustrations for these little comic books called tracts [used by the cult to disseminate information], got wind that the group was starting to advocate child-adult sex. They were telling him to draw cartoons about it. Their whole thing was that children are very sexual beings. "God made children able to enjoy sex, so he must’ve expected them to!" the group’s founder, David Berg, proclaimed in a book. I was not molested because my dad was strong enough to realize that this hippie love had gone south.

We had to leave on the sly. My dad, Nat, Daisy and I escaped with my dad’s other wife in the middle of the night. I remember running through a cornfield in thunder and lightning, holding my dad’s hand and running as fast as I could to keep up with him. We hid in an old stone house and had to boil pots of hot water to take baths. [The cult] sent people to find us. I remember a man trying to break in with a hammer.

When Joaquin Phoenix was asked about Rose's claims, he said, "I think a lot of what has been exposed about the group happened in the 1980s. She was there well into the 1980s, I think. It’s kind of a typical progression of something like that, you know? It starts out one way and takes some time before it evolves into something else. When people bring up Children of God, there’s always something vaguely accusatory about it. It’s guilt by association. I think it was really innocent on my parents’ part. They really believed, but I don’t think most people see it that way. I’ve always thought that was strange and unfair."

Despite Joaquin's claims that all the bad shit happened in the 80s after his parents left, a 1974 report from the New York Attorney General's office attested that child rape was common in Children of God, rationalized by founder David Brandt Berg's "Laws of Love" philosophy of child and teen sexuality. Berg's own daughter described the group as a world wide prostitution network because her father had women in the group proposition men to recruit new members. The FBI and Interpol investigated the group regarding claims of kidnapping, incest, and sexual abuse. Members were discouraged from working (sound familiar?) and Berg had a doctrine called the Law of Love. His daughter said, "The Law of Love is a doctrine that’s meant to justify and conceal sexual exploitation. It’s made to make other people feel obligated to give up their bodies to others’ so-called sexual needs. That your body is not your own – you’re supposed to give it up to God.” (again, sound familiar?)

[MicheleinPhilly]

Post sentencing interview with India:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/10/keith-raniere-nxivm-india-oxenberg-court

From the article: 🤬

But on Monday, the night before the 29-year-old would face her 60-year-old abuser—the NXIVM leader who subjected her and other women to depraved acts of physical, emotional, and sexual trauma under the guise of self-help—Oxenberg received two surprising voicemails.

The messages were from a former good friend and NXIVM member who was still loyal to Raniere. The friend said she was calling from outside the hotel where she believed Oxenberg was staying. In the voicemails, the friend emotionally pleaded for Oxenberg to meet her and talk.

“That really threw me,” Oxenberg told Vanity Fair Wednesday morning. “She said, ‘I just really miss you. We had something special…I would really like to talk to you.’” She made an even more desperate grab for Oxenberg’s heartstrings, the actor said, alleging that her mother was unwell and she needed a friend. “It was intimate,” said Oxenberg, who did not respond to the messages. The next morning, Oxenberg saw that she had missed another call from the NXIVM member.

While walking into the Brooklyn courtroom for Raniere’s long-awaited sentencing on Tuesday, Oxenberg felt a tap on her arm. It was the former friend again. Fortunately, a courtroom guard intervened—safely ushering Oxenberg inside the courtroom.

[toodywoody]

On 10/26/2020 at 1:10 PM, TVbitch said:

This documentary is so much more detailed, it makes the Vow unnecessary. The Vow comes off more and more as trying to portray its main four characters in a good light. This one does the same for India, but less egregiously. At least she is not running down the street yelling "we did it!" like a superhero who took down a villain. 

India still needs a lot of counseling. The only time she "cried" and couldn't continue with her script was when she talked about how much Alison lied to her. She is not over that Alison did not really care about her, just like Mark cannot get over that Keith did not really care about him.  

What can even be said about KR at this point. He convinces the men that rape is okay and should be enjoyed. Convinces the women that there is really no such thing as rape, and that they might even actually like it if they stopped playing the victim. ...sounds like a guy who is really into rape. He even mentnioned raping a cat. ~Please get a life sentence!

Well I hope he has the tables turned around while he is in prison and gets a little taste of his rape fantasy or whatever his thing is with that.

Also, most freaking cults are just a huge pedo with people giving their life savings and daughters to the head dude. It's freaking sick. David Koresh and Jim Jones to just name two that had people just giving them money left and right. Most of the cults I've seen specials about are all about sex and sex only with the head dude. Like wtf are people thinking. It is just sick.

 

[Proclone]

On 10/27/2020 at 7:32 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Of all the things that were said about Keith in the first episode, I bet the thing that would upset him the most was the cult expert pointing out that Keith just copied crap from Scientology, EST, Ayn Rand, etc. and then saying that Keith was not an original thinker. The truth hurts, man!

Although some of the information is stuff I already learned from watching The Vow, this series is already SO much more succinct and informative. The Vow was bloated, rambling, and aimless, and it left me with a lot of questions. Seduced, on the other hand, presented lots of information (without being overwhelming) and has much better structure in its storytelling. Whoever edited The Vow could learn a huge lesson.  What's sad is that The Vow that THOUSANDS of hours of footage that Mark shot so they had primary sources (not just secondhand accounts) which should have made it the more compelling show, but after only one episode I already prefer Seduced so much more.

I feel like The Vow was deliberately skirting a lot of issues and only bringing up certain things. Seeing the footage they used in Seduced (which was obviously also shot by Mark) makes it clear that there were a lot worse things that The Vow could have added. I mean, rapeable babies? Daughters who LIKED being sexually abused by their fathers until they learned that society disapproved? Knowing that The Vow chose not to show those clips makes it even clearer that The Vow was still trying to protect Keith, NXIVM, etc. and tried not to portray them as negatively as they could have.

 

I agree with all of this.  I really think that this documentary benefits greatly from having the perspective cult experts explaining how indoctrination occurs.  And this so much better edited than The Vow.   No random shots of people making avocado toast, no one jucing anything, or checking their Facebook. I don't mind that the talking heads seem more rehearsed (and I'm under no illusion that the sit down interviews in The Vow weren't rehearsed), especially because they're giving us information in much clearer way then almost any part of The Vow.  And I also agree that part of The Vow's problem was that it was skirting around issues, I think probably to make Mark specifically look better.  Probably because he was the source of a great deal of the footage (although Seduced seems to have gotten their hands on plenty). 

This does a way better job actually showing you what ESP was and what they taught.  The Vow mostly portrayed it as this slightly hippy-dippy organization that suddenly made a right turn into sexual slavery.  This makes it clear that those teachings were sown into the fabric of ESP from the beginning.  There was no bait and switch like Mark would like to make it seem.  Also I don't think the show said this, but he was the source of the footage of the women being dismembered by the drug cartel.  He says he was sent it by a reporter friend and then passed it on to Keith.  I'm unsure if he knew what it was ultimately used for, but my guess given how high up in ESP he was, is that he did.  The Vow completely glossed over the things like this that ESP did.

Speaking of Mark, I think the way The Vow portrayed him and ESP in general made me cut him a bit of slack...After episode two of this, he can go fuck himself in the ear.  He seems like he likes to portray himself as someone who was perhaps in the wrong because he didn't speak up, but wasn't actively doing anything that bad...this makes it clear he just how involved he was with the BS.  Shaming India for taking a job, laughing at Keith's disgusting jokes (It's amazing how you led me there...*vomit*), listening to hours of misogynistic BS with your wife (it is it just me, or does it seem like anytime we get a glimpse of Bonnie she looks uncomfortable?) telling you how you're supposed to cheat, but she can't.  For a guy who supposedly doesn't understand machismo, it seems like he accepted a very antiquated version of masculinity pretty easily.

Also I would like him to actually admit that he did a lot of what he did to make money.  He makes himself seem like everything he did in ESP was this altruistic thing to make the world a better place, and I have no doubt that he did believe that, but he was also making *a lot* of money.  At least Sarah fully admits that part of the impetus for her to stay in ESP was being it was how she made money.  Sarah may not always come across that great, but I think she's aware that great deal of what she did was selfish.  Mark still seems to act like he was a good guy who just suckered by a bad guy.  Admit that part of you liked SOP and Jness bullshit on some level, Mark.  I'll like you 110% better if you admit that on some level ESP, SOP, Jness all appealed to the devil on your shoulder (I'm guessing this is the case for a lot of men in the group).  Admit you aren't completely enlightened and that's part of what sent you down a dark path.

I've read that India still talks to Sarah, but doesn't interact with Mark, I wonder why that might be?

On a random side note, I can't imagine that given all the singing and dancing done at V-week that there weren't more than a few LGBT people involved in ESP.  How did that fit into Keith's very 1950's gender roles?  How were queer people treated within the group?  It would be interesting if they touched on it.  Scientology is a bastion of homophobia so, I'm curious if ESP was as well.

[EtheltoTillie]

V Week. Can you imagine a greater torture?  After branding, of course. 

My family lost relatives to a cult. A high school classmate dropped out of an Ivy League school to join the same cult. This is why I always watch programs about cults. Trying to understand but still never really can. 

[mamadrama]

4 hours ago, Proclone said:

I agree with all of this.  I really think that this documentary benefits greatly from having the perspective cult experts explaining how indoctrination occurs.  And this so much better edited than The Vow.   No random shots of people making avocado toast, no one jucing anything, or checking their Facebook. I don't mind that the talking heads seem more rehearsed (and I'm under no illusion that the sit down interviews in The Vow weren't rehearsed), especially because they're giving us information in much clearer way then almost any part of The Vow.  And I also agree that part of The Vow's problem was that it was skirting around issues, I think probably to make Mark specifically look better.  Probably because he was the source of a great deal of the footage (although Seduced seems to have gotten their hands on plenty). 

This does a way better job actually showing you what ESP was and what they taught.  The Vow mostly portrayed it as this slightly hippy-dippy organization that suddenly made a right turn into sexual slavery.  This makes it clear that those teachings were sown into the fabric of ESP from the beginning.  There was no bait and switch like Mark would like to make it seem.  Also I don't think the show said this, but he was the source of the footage of the women being dismembered by the drug cartel.  He says he was sent it by a reporter friend and then passed it on to Keith.  I'm unsure if he knew what it was ultimately used for, but my guess given how high up in ESP he was, is that he did.  The Vow completely glossed over the things like this that ESP did.

Speaking of Mark, I think the way The Vow portrayed him and ESP in general made me cut him a bit of slack...After episode two of this, he can go fuck himself in the ear.  He seems like he likes to portray himself as someone who was perhaps in the wrong because he didn't speak up, but wasn't actively doing anything that bad...this makes it clear he just how involved he was with the BS.  Shaming India for taking a job, laughing at Keith's disgusting jokes (It's amazing how you led me there...*vomit*), listening to hours of misogynistic BS with your wife (it is it just me, or does it seem like anytime we get a glimpse of Bonnie she looks uncomfortable?) telling you how you're supposed to cheat, but she can't.  For a guy who supposedly doesn't understand machismo, it seems like he accepted a very antiquated version of masculinity pretty easily.

Also I would like him to actually admit that he did a lot of what he did to make money.  He makes himself seem like everything he did in ESP was this altruistic thing to make the world a better place, and I have no doubt that he did believe that, but he was also making *a lot* of money.  At least Sarah fully admits that part of the impetus for her to stay in ESP was being it was how she made money.  Sarah may not always come across that great, but I think she's aware that great deal of what she did was selfish.  Mark still seems to act like he was a good guy who just suckered by a bad guy.  Admit that part of you liked SOP and Jness bullshit on some level, Mark.  I'll like you 110% better if you admit that on some level ESP, SOP, Jness all appealed to the devil on your shoulder (I'm guessing this is the case for a lot of men in the group).  Admit you aren't completely enlightened and that's part of what sent you down a dark path.

I've read that India still talks to Sarah, but doesn't interact with Mark, I wonder why that might be?

On a random side note, I can't imagine that given all the singing and dancing done at V-week that there weren't more than a few LGBT people involved in ESP.  How did that fit into Keith's very 1950's gender roles?  How were queer people treated within the group?  It would be interesting if they touched on it.  Scientology is a bastion of homophobia so, I'm curious if ESP was as well.

Keith WAS homophobic, but he also encouraged the DOS women to sleep with each other. He blindfolded one lady, tied her to a table, and had another woman perform oral sex on her. He was a hypocritical asshole, among other things.

[luckyroll3]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

Keith WAS homophobic, but he also encouraged the DOS women to sleep with each other. He blindfolded one lady, tied her to a table, and had another woman perform oral sex on her. He was a hypocritical asshole, among other things.

They also mentioned his homophobia in "The Lost Women of NXIVM", particularly in regards to the woman from Alaska (Kristin) who committed suicide/went missing, as she was a lesbian. Susan (I think that was her name, the one who ran the Seattle Center before she left the group) said that Keith saw Kristin being a lesbian as a challenge and he made it a goal to basically "break" her/fuck her. Kristin's partner said that when she returned from Albany, she was different and just before her breakdown she said she was pregnant. In fact, that's what she was screaming in the middle of the training before they dragged her away only for her to "commit suicide" later on that day.  

[AryasMum]

On 10/15/2020 at 11:16 PM, pigs-in-space said:

The interviews here sound a bit rehearsed compared to The Vow, which of course I can't help but compare this to. I'll still watch, of course, as I'm fascinated by this whole story.

I'm glad they're getting some new faces to interview. I look forward to hearing from them.

I haven’t watched The Vow yet, but I agree about the rehearsed part. Catherine sounds very natural, probably because she’s an actress. India often sounds like she’s memorized a script of her own words. Sometimes India is speaking spontaneously, like the outdoor scenes, otherwise she sounds way over rehearsed and scripted.  I’m not judging it, just noting it. 

[Proclone]

8 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Keith WAS homophobic, but he also encouraged the DOS women to sleep with each other. He blindfolded one lady, tied her to a table, and had another woman perform oral sex on her. He was a hypocritical asshole, among other things.

 

I had heard that story.  And quite frankly how India seems to describe her relationship with Alison…Well, it doesn't sound like it was entirely platonic at any rate.  She said something to the effect that she and Alison talked about sexual things that India was uncomfortable and even the animation that go along with her flashback to joining DOS hint on the relationship being awfully touchy feely.  I have no idea what exactly went on between them, but there definitely seemed to be sexual undertones there. 

 

6 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

They also mentioned his homophobia in "The Lost Women of NXIVM", particularly in regards to the woman from Alaska (Kristin) who committed suicide/went missing, as she was a lesbian. Susan (I think that was her name, the one who ran the Seattle Center before she left the group) said that Keith saw Kristin being a lesbian as a challenge and he made it a goal to basically "break" her/fuck her. Kristin's partner said that when she returned from Albany, she was different and just before her breakdown she said she was pregnant. In fact, that's what she was screaming in the middle of the training before they dragged her away only for her to "commit suicide" later on that day.  

 

Yeah, I can totally see Keith being one of those guys who would be convinced he could "turn" a lesbian woman.  In general I'm curious how people Keith didn't want to sleep with, who happened to be LGBT faired in ESP.  I just can't imagine too many queer people listening to the Jness or SOP misogyny and nodding along.  Why would a lesbian or a gay man sit around and listen to how hard men have it, they just need to screw things and women just need to let them?  Were the members of ESP who were queer just never steered towards those "tracks"? Wouldn't that make you question your involvement in an organizations, that they have programs to help with relationships, but only straight relationships?

[nilyank]

13 hours ago, GussieK said:

V Week. Can you imagine a greater torture?  

 

Yeah, having sex with Keith.

[mamadrama]

1 minute ago, nilyank said:

Yeah, having sex with Keith.

At least at V week you occasionally got to act out scenes from DIRTY DANCING.

[MicheleinPhilly]

13 hours ago, Proclone said:

I had heard that story.  And quite frankly how India seems to describe her relationship with Alison…Well, it doesn't sound like it was entirely platonic at any rate.  She said something to the effect that she and Alison talked about sexual things that India was uncomfortable and even the animation that go along with her flashback to joining DOS hint on the relationship being awfully touchy feely.  I have no idea what exactly went on between them, but there definitely seemed to be sexual undertones there. 

In one of the interviews with India I've read she denied that anything sexual or romantic happened between her and Alison. BUT she said that Alison wanted it to happen. 🤷‍♀️

India and Catherine were on Tamron Hall's show yesterday. There were a LOT of technical difficulties with the interview but it was very heartening to see that their relationship seems to be in a very good place now. 

[mamadrama]

So... episode 3 was a little nuts...

When my step sister and I were kids in the 80s, whenever she'd get mad at someone she'd seeth "Well, up his butt with a rubber duck!" (She had no awareness of the sexual connotation.) 

I thought about her curse during the whole episode.

IMO rape is never acceptable justice, not even to a sicko in prison, so I'll just say that I hope that for the rest of his life his meat will always be undercooked, his toilet paper so rough that his hemorrhoids cry for the softness of poison ivy leaves, and the best prison job he'll ever get is scrubbing all the toilets in his cellblock on every "Mexican Fiesta" Friday and "Taco Tuesday". 🌮

[pigs-in-space]

I watched the latest episode, then started re-watching The Vow because I'm a masochist and I find it interesting to puzzle all the timelines together. I'm fairly certain Deborah is the person who originally spoke to Bonnie and Mark and tipped them off to DOS, as the stories matched up exactly.

The whole recruit-recruit-recruit push showed how obvious it was that this was all for Keith's sexual urges. He didn't want unattractive people in DOS because he had no interest in sleeping with them.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 10/29/2020 at 2:24 AM, Proclone said:

This does a way better job actually showing you what ESP was and what they taught.  The Vow mostly portrayed it as this slightly hippy-dippy organization that suddenly made a right turn into sexual slavery.  This makes it clear that those teachings were sown into the fabric of ESP from the beginning.  There was no bait and switch like Mark would like to make it seem. 

Exactly. The narrative in The Vow was that Mark et al had this grand mission to "make the world a better place" (apparently that's achieved by charging $10K for a pyramid scheme seminar) and members like him were all just SHOCKED that DOS and sexual slavery were this hidden aspect of NXIVM.

But by showing the footage of things that Keith said as well as the sexist and misogynistic things that the women were subjected to in those stupid JNESS/SOP courses, Seduced makes it pretty clear that not only was this attitude part and parcel of the company all along, but people like Mark and Nippy were TEACHING this misogynistic drivel. There's no way they can claim complete ignorance of the rampant sexist bull shit that existed in NXIVM because they were part of it.

Mark really portrayed himself in The Vow as this wide eyed innocent boy who joined a self help group, became besties with the founder, and then couldn't believe that his wife, his female BFF, and the other women in the group were being treated badly. Seduced has made it obvious that his version where he was totally oblivious to the seedier side of the group is not true. I mean, the fact that he had all this footage of Keith means that even if Mark hadn't been Keith's #1 guy or been an active participant in the group, he still would have known what was going on from witnessing it behind the camera.

On top of that, hearing how he guilt tripped India and tried to pressure her into not taking a paying job, seeing footage of the SOP trainings - it's obvious that he was no innocent bystander with rose tinted glasses. He knew and he was an active participant in most of the shitty things that the group did. Just because he didn't know about DOS doesn't make him an innocent in the situation.

[mamadrama]

28 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Exactly. The narrative in The Vow was that Mark et al had this grand mission to "make the world a better place" (apparently that's achieved by charging $10K for a pyramid scheme seminar) and members like him were all just SHOCKED that DOS and sexual slavery were this hidden aspect of NXIVM.

But by showing the footage of things that Keith said as well as the sexist and misogynistic things that the women were subjected to in those stupid JNESS/SOP courses, Seduced makes it pretty clear that not only was this attitude part and parcel of the company all along, but people like Mark and Nippy were TEACHING this misogynistic drivel. There's no way they can claim complete ignorance of the rampant sexist bull shit that existed in NXIVM because they were part of it.

Mark really portrayed himself in The Vow as this wide eyed innocent boy who joined a self help group, became besties with the founder, and then couldn't believe that his wife, his female BFF, and the other women in the group were being treated badly. Seduced has made it obvious that his version where he was totally oblivious to the seedier side of the group is not true. I mean, the fact that he had all this footage of Keith means that even if Mark hadn't been Keith's #1 guy or been an active participant in the group, he still would have known what was going on from witnessing it behind the camera.

On top of that, hearing how he guilt tripped India and tried to pressure her into not taking a paying job, seeing footage of the SOP trainings - it's obvious that he was no innocent bystander with rose tinted glasses. He knew and he was an active participant in most of the shitty things that the group did. Just because he didn't know about DOS doesn't make him an innocent in the situation.

Yes to all of this!

Mark did a pretty good job of NOT including or offering up the video footage that made him look like an active participant or leader of the scuzzier stuff. Even just looking at the little shots of footage between the two shows: one shows people laughing, dancing, hugging each other, talking about how they're making the world a better place; the other shows snippets of women appearing shockingly thin and Keith talking hypothetically about raping babies and steaks. 

This whole "we didn't know it was bad until DOS" is bullshit. When the NXIVM 9 left they calmly listed the reasons why...and Mark helped initiate the attacks on them. Nippy and Mark ran DOS and we're there for all the bullshit against the women. Mark recorded the misogynistic JNESS lessons himself. He knew that his wife was sleeping on the floor like a dog (less than my dogs, they sleep in my bed) because she'd talked back to him.

The red flags were waving for a long time. Them acting like the branding was a wake-up call is bullshit. 

[EtheltoTillie]

Listening to India describe the branding was horrific. Allison was a real psycho also. 

[DearEvette]

Ugh.  This third episode just... ugh. 

India does a great job of really sucking you into the horror of the experience.  And she also does a great job of really explaining the structure and techniques behind the behavior modification.  It is actually horrific.  But ... she does seem rehearsed in places.  Also I still get an inkling that she misses some parts of it.

But her breakdown of DOS was especially horrible.  I love how one of the cult people called it a pyramid scheme.  I was like "well, duh, that is all Keith understands." 

A lot of Allison stuff in this one.  We are told that all the women in DOS were subject to punishment.  Even the first line DOS women.  And yet, in all the examples given, Allison is never the one being punished.  Oh we are told Allison had to paddle one woman as a punishment for Allison not losing weight.  But how is that a punishment for Allison?  Also we are told that Allison wears some BDSM bracelet when she feels she needs punishment.  I just can't bring myself to feel any sympathy for Allison.  She comes off herself as just as abusive, gaslighting, and awful as Keith in some way.  To a lesser extent yes, but still she still is no less an abuser imo.  Maybe it is because we don't ever get any first person testimony form her, but from the two documentaries and the footage, she just comes off as completely ok with everything.  She doesn't give  any hesitancy or un-sureness vibe.  She is just like the Salzmans and the Bronfmans.  They are all in and to me Allison came off in the very same way. 

If Bronfmans were the CFOs and the Salzmans were the COOs, Allison was whatever you'd call the Chief Sexual Procurer Officer if such a position existed in corporate America.

The description of the desperate calls to enroll additional women in DOS just made it all so extra creepy.

Edited November 2, 2020 by DearEvette

[ElectricBoogaloo]

52 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Allison had to paddle one woman as a punishment for Allison not losing weight.  But how is that a punishment for Allison? 

Ahh, the good old "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" logic!

[Pop Tart]

4 hours ago, mamadrama said:

This whole "we didn't know it was bad until DOS" is bullshit. When the NXIVM 9 left they calmly listed the reasons why...and Mark helped initiate the attacks on them. Nippy and Mark ran DOS and we're there for all the bullshit against the women. Mark recorded the misogynistic JNESS lessons himself. He knew that his wife was sleeping on the floor like a dog (less than my dogs, they sleep in my bed) because she'd talked back to him.

The red flags were waving for a long time. Them acting like the branding was a wake-up call is bullshit. 

“I believed that the things they were having me do were at their core good, everything. I didn’t question it.”

I re-wound and wrote down India’s words. She was talking about taking on her own slaves and the things she was doing with Keith and the branding, etc. She kept doing all that was asked because she was convinced it was for a greater good. 

And this is true of the others as well. India heard all the same indoctrination stuff, plus she was actually a member of DOS having things done to her and doing them to others and yet she still thought it was for the good. Granted she was a young woman and Mark an older guy, but that doesn’t mean he believed it was for the good any less than she did.

Though I think Allison and the others who were on that first level were also victimized and brainwashed, their level of involvement in the criminal facilitation for Keith does put them on a different level than the rest of the organization. When I look at Allison in the videos and pictures it seems clear that she like the Bronfmans, Nikki Cline, Lauren Salzman, etc. was so completely subsumed into this thing and into Keith that she lost herself. When India talked about her always being a performer and having absolutely no sense of her actual self, that rang so true. There’s no there there except for what Keith built. 

[Armchair Critic]

 India’s “I was frozen” excuse is getting tiresome.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The masters assigning their slaves to seduce Keith was so gross. You know it was just all part of Keith's fantasy where he was so irresistible that women would aggressively pursue him to have sex when in reality, many of these women probably wouldn't have voluntarily touched him sexually with a ten foot pole.

The guise of the seduction task as helping the DOS slaves push against their boundaries was so gross. For anyone out there who is reading this: if you feel uncomfortable doing something, that's okay. That doesn't mean that you need to push yourself to get past it. There's probably a good reason that you're uncomfortable with it. But if there isn't any reason you can think of, the fact that it makes you uncomfortable is enough of a reason. You don't need to justify why it makes you uncomfortable or prove to someone that you can get past it.

I had a relative who was a button pusher and a manipulator. She would deliberately say and do things to make people uncomfortable and then accuse US of being the problem, claiming that we were too uptight or not evolved enough. But the real problem was that she was an asshole who liked to make people feel uncomfortable.

I laughed when India said that Keith picked her up from Allison's townhouse and then drove her to the next townhouse ON THE SAME STREET. This from the guy who insisted on rambling 3am walks?

Pressuring members like India to move to Albany permanently was classic abusive behavior. Abusers want to isolate their victims so that they believe they have no one else. When every waking moment revolves around your abuser(s), they become your whole world.

I rolled my eyes when I saw that one of Allison's tasks for India was to re-read "Feet of the Master." I half expected it to be some weird foot fetish thing that Keith was into.

Ahhh, the return of the volleyball footage. It was obvious in The Vow that Keith's real enjoyment wasn't so much the volleyball itself as it was holding court with a bunch of sycophantic admirers who would cheer for him no matter what.

I do not approve of any of the emotionally manipulative shit that ESP/NXIVM/DOS did to their members but the calorie restriction really stood out because you can really harm yourself by eating only 500 calories a day. There is no reason that a woman in her mid 20s should weigh only 106 pounds. I'd love to hear from the other slaves what arbitrary weight he chose for their ideal size. Were they all supposed to weigh 106? Did he pick random numbers (obviously low numbers but did he decide one person should be 102 vs 106?).

Weighing so little and consuming so few calories can cause women to stop menstruating along with a host of other health issues. That's your body's way of saying STOP THIS. But controlling a victim's weight and food intake is another classic abusive behavior. It was definitely about his sexual preference to have sex with thin women, but it was also about being able to control them.

 

[mamadrama]

10 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

.

I do not approve of any of the emotionally manipulative shit that ESP/NXIVM/DOS did to their members but the calorie restriction really stood out because you can really harm yourself by eating only 500 calories a day. There is no reason that a woman in her mid 20s should weigh only 106 pounds. I'd love to hear from the other slaves what arbitrary weight he chose for their ideal size. Were they all supposed to weigh 106? Did he pick random numbers (obviously low numbers but did he decide one person should be 102 vs 106?).

 

 

Cami, a first line slave and the woman he was charged for statutory rape and underage pornography of, was commanded to weigh 100lbs. At the time of this "order" she was 5'5" and weighed 130. He asked her how long it would take her to get to 100 and when she told him "2 months" he said that wasn't fast enough.

[mamadrama]

@ElectricBoogaloo I find Parlato to be skeevy in his own way, but this is a text transcript from the trial. Near the end Keith talks about the weight. You'll want to bleach your brain afterwards...

https://frankreport.com/2019/06/29/part-2-keith-and-cami-texts-treat-robbie-like-a-rapist-lose-the-weight-you-promised-and-stop-throwing-up-it-hurts-me/

 

Also, if you want to see ALL the texts, go here:

https://frankreport.com/2019/07/07/part-7-keith-and-cami-texts-it-would-be-good-for-you-to-own-a-fuck-toy-slave-for-me/

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Another big tip off to cults is their specific vocabulary and euphemisms. In this episode what really stood out to me was India saying that Allison wanted her to "enroll" more women in DOS, as if this were an after school art class instead of sex trafficking, blackmail, and branding.

[pigs-in-space]

Gosh, can you imagine being one of the poor normal folks in a town house in between these people? That has to be so weird.

[EtheltoTillie]

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The masters assigning their slaves to seduce Keith was so gross. You know it was just all part of Keith's fantasy where he was so irresistible that women would aggressively pursue him to have sex when in reality, many of these women probably wouldn't have voluntarily touched him sexually with a ten foot pole.

The guise of the seduction task as helping the DOS slaves push against their boundaries was so gross. Fla2 vs 106?).

Weighing so little and consuming so few calories can cause women to stop menstruating along with a host of other health issues. That's your body's way of saying STOP THIS. But controlling a victim's weight and food intake is another classic abusive behavior. It was definitely about his sexual preference to have sex with thin women, but it was also about being able to control them.

 

This is such a typical bogus concept of the so-called self-improvement industry.  It can always be turned on its head as you're not improving enough and if you're not agreeing you are against the organization. 

The description of the sex was too horrible to contemplate. 

[charliesan]

Like many of you I think Seduced is far, far superior than the Vow in terms of content and storytelling, simply because Seduced actually goes there while the Vow's simply a light version of what really happened. Perhaps the producers of the Vow relied way too much on its characters instead of the facts, and I find this to be a mistake because Mark, Sarah, Bonnie and Nippy were not (maybe because of legal reasons or because of they were concerned about their reputations) reliable sources.  

On 11/1/2020 at 10:48 PM, Armchair Critic said:

 India’s “I was frozen” excuse is getting tiresome.

Gosh, I think this too. but I can respect India because she's laying it all out there (or at least that's my perception) and she must be aware that she'll end up looking really bad. That I can't say about the others on the Vow, especially Mark. 

I actually do blame Mark, I'm sorry. I have no way of knowing this but since he provided footage for the Vow I can see how he had a lot of weight on how the whole process was portrayed. 
Everyone did bad things, all of them, but I think he's the least forthcoming and he has shielded himself with "I'm a good person but I ended up with a bad group of people" rationale, when I just think he's, at most, a Beta-type with narcissistic personality.

While I have no doubt he experienced extreme manipulation, I don't think there's a comparison between the levels of coercion and control the others received, especially India. Besides, out of the whole group, didn't he had the most contact with Keith aside from his harem and the Bronfman sisters? He had 1:1 access to his entire ideology and as far as I could tell he wasn't being ordered to lose weight... My point is, the women could barely eat and sleep, things that prevented them from thinking clearly, things Mark did not have to endure. And when his own WIFE wanted support, he states that he needed "data". 

Take Mike Rinder, I think he did way worse things while he was in Scientology, but he has been way more upfront about everything he did and since then has tried to make amends.

This show definitely paints a different picture about the main people from the Vow so I feel a little duped and manipulated, especially about Mark. 

 

[ChelleGame]

On 11/1/2020 at 11:07 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

That doesn't mean that you need to push yourself to get past it. There's probably a good reason that you're uncomfortable with it. But if there isn't any reason you can think of, the fact that it makes you uncomfortable is enough of a reason. You don't need to justify why it makes you uncomfortable or prove to someone that you can get past it.

So wonderfully said. Just spot on. Every child should be taught this and every adult  should recite at the new year.

Being uncomfortable is enough of a reason to say no, and gut instincts are your angels/spirits/ancestors (whatever works for you) trying to protect you.

Trust it.

[Fleegull]

On 11/2/2020 at 2:07 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The masters assigning their slaves to seduce Keith was so gross. You know it was just all part of Keith's fantasy where he was so irresistible that women would aggressively pursue him to have sex when in reality, many of these women probably wouldn't have voluntarily touched him sexually with a ten foot pole.

The guise of the seduction task as helping the DOS slaves push against their boundaries was so gross. For anyone out there who is reading this: if you feel uncomfortable doing something, that's okay. That doesn't mean that you need to push yourself to get past it. There's probably a good reason that you're uncomfortable with it. But if there isn't any reason you can think of, the fact that it makes you uncomfortable is enough of a reason. You don't need to justify why it makes you uncomfortable or prove to someone that you can get past it.

I had a relative who was a button pusher and a manipulator. She would deliberately say and do things to make people uncomfortable and then accuse US of being the problem, claiming that we were too uptight or not evolved enough. But the real problem was that she was an asshole who liked to make people feel uncomfortable.

I laughed when India said that Keith picked her up from Allison's townhouse and then drove her to the next townhouse ON THE SAME STREET. This from the guy who insisted on rambling 3am walks?

Pressuring members like India to move to Albany permanently was classic abusive behavior. Abusers want to isolate their victims so that they believe they have no one else. When every waking moment revolves around your abuser(s), they become your whole world.

I rolled my eyes when I saw that one of Allison's tasks for India was to re-read "Feet of the Master." I half expected it to be some weird foot fetish thing that Keith was into.

Ahhh, the return of the volleyball footage. It was obvious in The Vow that Keith's real enjoyment wasn't so much the volleyball itself as it was holding court with a bunch of sycophantic admirers who would cheer for him no matter what.

I do not approve of any of the emotionally manipulative shit that ESP/NXIVM/DOS did to their members but the calorie restriction really stood out because you can really harm yourself by eating only 500 calories a day. There is no reason that a woman in her mid 20s should weigh only 106 pounds. I'd love to hear from the other slaves what arbitrary weight he chose for their ideal size. Were they all supposed to weigh 106? Did he pick random numbers (obviously low numbers but did he decide one person should be 102 vs 106?).

Weighing so little and consuming so few calories can cause women to stop menstruating along with a host of other health issues. That's your body's way of saying STOP THIS. But controlling a victim's weight and food intake is another classic abusive behavior. It was definitely about his sexual preference to have sex with thin women, but it was also about being able to control them.

 

In the past episode mention was made of Allison losing her period for TEN YEARS.  That will definitely come back on her health wise later on.

So Keith wanted a powerful harem of women in political positions and corporate higher ups, how exactly were they supposed to do that on 500 calories a day?

It must stick in his craw that an attractive woman like Moira Kim Penza helped to put him away, back in the day he would have had all of JNess/DOS going after her.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, Fleegull said:

So Keith wanted a powerful harem of women in political positions and corporate higher ups, how exactly were they supposed to do that on 500 calories a day?

Not to mention the fact that to get to the point where they  are happily handing over collateral they'd have to be so deep into NVIXM indoctrination it isn't possible for them to give the sort of dedication and long hours it takes to rise up in those powerful positions and maintain those jobs.  How long would these women be in their high positions if they were always up, sleep deprived and having to text 'ready.'  Hell they wouldn't let India hold a little part time job.  And then if you are talking politics, the way politics works in the highest levels everything about a person undergoes the deepest scrutiny.  It is hard enough for women to rise certain levels in different industries, can you imagine how quickly she'd be discredited and ridiculed if (when) it came out she was part of a damn sex cult or someone saw  text where they are calling someone 'master.'

[mamadrama]

I've been thinking about this...By the time people like India made it into DOS they'd already been indoctrinated into NXIVM for several years. Part of that was literally teaching them to ignore their intuition and to reframe their feelings of trepidation and fear. By "fixing" the disintegrations" through EMs they were teaching these women that any warning signals they already possessed were wrong and holding them back. The whole thing is pretty fucked up. 

In one of Keith's videos he's actually telling women (and men, too, I guess) that "love" is ONLY felt through pain. IMO he did this as a setup so that he could treat his harem however he wanted and then convince them that the worse they felt, the more they were actually being loved. Jesus. 

[MicheleinPhilly]

India and Catherine appeared on The Ellen DeGeneres Show yesterday. India said that at the sentencing hearing the judge had indicated that he was prepared to sentence KR to 54 years. And then the witnesses spoke and KR called them all liars and expressed no remorse and then...🤭

 

 

[Armchair Critic]

I just wonder if India wasn’t blonde and doe eyed (with a famous mother) if she would get as much sympathy. She had slaves under her and collected collateral for Allison.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, Armchair Critic said:

I just wonder if India wasn’t blonde and doe eyed (with a famous mother) if she would get as much sympathy. She had slaves under her and collected collateral for Allison.

I think the blatant trafficking of India, as well as the fact that she gave them all that evidence, is why she wasn't waiting for her turn in front of the prosecution.

[DearEvette]

Did we know Frank Parlato used to work with Keith?  I don't recall The Vow mentioning that, but then there was so much padding and navel gazing in The Vow I might have missed it.

I dunno, this episode felt the most blatantly almost like revisionist history in some ways.  Or at least India doing her own version of self-burnishing kinda like Mark in The Vow.

For instance, I call foul on India being so relieved that her "slaves" wouldn't have to be branded.   It is clear at that point she was deeply indoctrinated to the point that she completely distanced herself from her family, froze her mother out, refused to even understand how big of a shit storm they were in when it hit the NYT.  She felt about her own brand as if it were some wonderful symbol.  So no way she would have felt relieved on the behalf of her slaves  that they didn't have to. Also how she casually talks about 'my slaves'.  Just ewww.

I also think it was awfully convenient she found those flash drives just when she did.  It may be overly cynical, but I almost feel like she already knew about them and she grabbed them before Allison could and used them as her own get out of jail free card.  But is presenting here as a 'oh look, I just so happened to find these..."  There is no one left to contradict her. Also her continued lying even as more and more people got arrested. And it wasn't until she was the last one standing that she finally turned to her mother.  I almost feel if Allison hadn't been arrested India would still not have reached out to Catherine.

Also... group blow job.  Ewwww..

[luckyroll3]

6 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I just wonder if India wasn’t blonde and doe eyed (with a famous mother) if she would get as much sympathy. She had slaves under her and collected collateral for Allison.

 

5 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I think the blatant trafficking of India, as well as the fact that she gave them all that evidence, is why she wasn't waiting for her turn in front of the prosecution.

Exactly. As I've said before, there's something about India and her overly scripted reveals that doesn't rub me the right way.  Particularly all her, "I knew this was wrong, but then I went along with it anyway; I recruited slaves anyway; I was proud of my brand anyway." I get everyone's misgivings about the folks on The Vow, because they are really self-congratulatory about a lot of things, but I more readily buy their, "We thought this was good and ignored the signs until it was too late" because I can see how they could rationalize everything else away if they really and truly believed.  And I personally think India was a true believer and all this other stuff about "I felt uncomfortable, but....", "this wasn't right, but....", was all included in her script to make her seem more sympathetic.  It honestly makes me feel like they're trying to pull one over me and I would have appreciated this more, if she was a bit more authentic.

I do thank them, however, for being able to tell what felt like a complete story in 4 episodes.  Producers of The Vow, I hope y'all were paying attention for next season.

1 minute ago, DearEvette said:

Did we know Frank Parlato used to work with Keith?  I don't recall The Vow mentioning that, but then there was so much padding and navel gazing in The Vow I might have missed it.

The Vow did mention it a few times, but given all the fluff, especially in the episodes where Frank was introduced, I can see how it could have been missed. 

[Pop Tart]

7 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I think the blatant trafficking of India, as well as the fact that she gave them all that evidence, is why she wasn't waiting for her turn in front of the prosecution.

 

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I dunno, this episode felt the most blatantly almost like revisionist history in some ways.  Or at least India doing her own version of self-burnishing kinda like Mark in The Vow.

 

Agreed with both of these. I can't quite remember the sequence but I think she'd already been questioned by the FBI and talked with the lawyer her mother arranged before she cleared out Allison's apartment for storage and "found" the flash drives. So she had some idea already that she was perhaps in legal peril. So that when she looked at the flash drives and saw what was on them she didn't just turn them over to the FBI, she did so with her lawyer and in exchange for not being prosecuted. 

And I give her no shade if that's the route she took. Of course she'd seek to protect herself and was legally entitled to do so. Jus as Mark, Sarah, etc did. But the way it was glossed over and preserved her saintliness and victimhood stuck in my craw a bit. 

Many gave Sarah the side-eye for how she showed her brand - and I even got a sense of Catherine giving her shade last night when she mentioned it. And also how The Vow was a vehicle for them to get their side out. I kind of think that India is going that same route - though she'll be using her experiences to create some kind of self-help venture to talk to future lawyers? And clearly this was India's vehicle towards that endeavor. I noticed last night that she was one of the executive producers for this documentary so of course it's going to present her in the most positive light possible. And that's what it did. 

I did also note that while India has said that she still talks to Sarah, but not Mark, she did mention in the episode that Mark got out of nxivm almost as soon as he learned about DOS, then Sarah and Nippy. 

Oh and total side note: loved that because Nippy is a hothead his confrontation with Lauren was overheard by many so the DOS secret was outed to many in nxivm at that point who all began to jump ship in droves after that. 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Pop Tart

[Fleegull]

Nicki Clyne's inability to be off Insta got Keith caught. That's going to make me laugh for years. Eat real meals kids, starvation makes you stupid.

No wonder Nicki's out there dancing for Keith and coddling up to anyone who will give her some air time, she's partially responsible for getting him arrested.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Fleegull

[For Cereals]

One thing that bothered me was India’s statement about how other parents didn’t try as much as her mother or something to that effect.  Other members were probably deeply in debt and their parents I’m sure didn’t have the same resources or connections as Catherine.  Just bothered me.

And the whole, “I just happened to grab the thumb drives.”  Mmmkay...

[pigs-in-space]

1 hour ago, Pop Tart said:

Oh and total side note: loved that because Nippy is a hothead his confrontation with Lauren was overheard by many so the DOS secret was outed to many in nxivm at that point who all began to jump ship in droves after that. 

According to Sarah on the CBC podcast, she and Nippy planned that, and specifically made it as public and visible as possible to try and protect themselves from becoming NXIVM targets.

1 hour ago, For Cereals said:

One thing that bothered me was India’s statement about how other parents didn’t try as much as her mother or something to that effect.  Other members were probably deeply in debt and their parents I’m sure didn’t have the same resources or connections as Catherine.  Just bothered me.

Ugh, same! I'm sure there were plenty of other parents out there who couldn't just call up the media and get on TV like Catherine could, or couldn't afford to hire people like Rick Ross to help them stragetize (which still didn't really work in India's case). And I'm sure many of them right now can't afford all the therapy that India is getting. I'm sure trauma massage therapy isn't cheap.

ETA: To be clear, I am not at all begrudging India the therapy she is getting. I just wish everyone had access to that level of care, regardless of their financial situation.

Edited November 9, 2020 by pigs-in-space

[EdnasEdibles]

4 hours ago, Pop Tart said:

 

Agreed with both of these. I can't quite remember the sequence but I think she'd already been questioned by the FBI and talked with the lawyer her mother arranged before she cleared out Allison's apartment for storage and "found" the flash drives. So she had some idea already that she was perhaps in legal peril. So that when she looked at the flash drives and saw what was on them she didn't just turn them over to the FBI, she did so with her lawyer and in exchange for not being prosecuted. 

And I give her no shade if that's the route she took. Of course she'd seek to protect herself and was legally entitled to do so. Jus as Mark, Sarah, etc did. But the way it was glossed over and preserved her saintliness and victimhood stuck in my craw a bit. 

Many gave Sarah the side-eye for how she showed her brand - and I even got a sense of Catherine giving her shade last night when she mentioned it. And also how The Vow was a vehicle for them to get their side out. I kind of think that India is going that same route - though she'll be using her experiences to create some kind of self-help venture to talk to future lawyers? And clearly this was India's vehicle towards that endeavor. I noticed last night that she was one of the executive producers for this documentary so of course it's going to present her in the most positive light possible. And that's what it did. 

I did also note that while India has said that she still talks to Sarah, but not Mark, she did mention in the episode that Mark got out of nxivm almost as soon as he learned about DOS, then Sarah and Nippy. 

Oh and total side note: loved that because Nippy is a hothead his confrontation with Lauren was overheard by many so the DOS secret was outed to many in nxivm at that point who all began to jump ship in droves after that. 

Absolutely. The Vow was Mark & Sarah trying to cover their asses and tell the story of how they got hoodwinked. This was India's CYA and explanation. India's was just better constructed and more riveting. 

[MicheleinPhilly]

Finally finished this last night and I think I'm officially ready to put my fascination with these people to rest. I don't need second seasons of any of them.