S05.E11: Taxing Times and Blurry Lines

[PhilMarlowe2]

15 hours ago, drivethroo said:

She should calm down and find a better way to express herself.  However, in my opinion, a lot of viewers want Candiace to be held to the same degree of accountability that Monique is being held to and they don't share the same degree of culpability.  It's like if I leave my car unlocked and my iPhone 11 on the front seat and you walk by, open the door and take the phone...I share some of the fault because I shouldn't have left the phone in plain sight and the car door unlocked.  But you had no right to touch my car and take my belongings.  So my consequence is you steal my phone and I don't have it anymore, but your consequence is you might catch some jail time and have to repay me for the phone, as well as pay lawyers to get you out of the jam and now have this incident on your record.

That analogy doesn't feel appropriate to me, though, because your biggest crime is being absentminded. You're not actively participating in the situation at all. I am not excusing Monique here, but Candiace did play a part in escalating that argument - everything from wagging her fingers in Monique's face, to flipping Monique's shirt (after the hair toss) and saying, "You going to drag me?" repeatedly as she is flipping the shirt. That's contact. That's baiting. I for one cannot imagine looking someone in the eye and saying, "Punch me in the face!" and then turning around crying victim when said person punches me in the face. I guess if I were to use your analogy, it'd be like if you purposefully parked your car dangerously close to thief's car specifically to piss him off, let your car door bump into his car and then you said, "Do it! Steal my cell phone!" as you left the parking lot. Does it make it right for him to steal your phone? No. Did you play a very real part in the escalating situation? Hell, yes. I'll never see Candiace as a victim in this.

Edited October 12, 2020 by PhilMarlowe2

[Rahul]

Wendy and her sister wear far, far too much makeup. Why must they cake on layer upon layer?

I'm so tired of this fight. It's ruining the season for me.

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, PhilMarlowe2 said:

That analogy doesn't feel appropriate to me, though, because your biggest crime is being absentminded. You're not actively participating in the situation at all. I am not excusing Monique here, but Candiace did play a part in escalating that argument - everything from wagging her fingers in Monique's face, to flipping Monique's shirt (after the hair toss) and saying, "You going to drag me?" repeatedly as she is flipping the shirt. That's contact. That's baiting. I for one cannot imagine looking someone in the eye and saying, "Punch me in the face!" and then turning around crying victim when said person punches me in the face. I guess if I were to use your analogy, it'd be like if you purposefully parked your car dangerously close to thief's car specifically to piss him off, let your car door bump into his car and then you said, "Do it! Steal my cell phone!" as you left the parking lot. Does it make it right for him to steal your phone? No. Did you play a very real part in the escalating situation? Hell, yes. I'll never see Candiace as a victim in this.

Yes, but Monique was STILL wrong to physically attack someone, period end of story.

[biakbiak]

51 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Yes, but Monique was STILL wrong to physically attack someone, period end of story.

As was acknowledged in the post you quoted. Candiace is also still wrong for her words and participation in the escalation including some physical action. Holding Monique accountable for her actions doesn’t prevent one from holding Candiace accountable for hers.

Edited October 12, 2020 by biakbiak

[drivethroo]

2 hours ago, PhilMarlowe2 said:

I for one cannot imagine looking someone in the eye and saying, "Punch me in the face!" and then turning around crying victim when said person punches me in the face

If you punch somebody in the face just because somebody says "You gonna punch me in the face?" you are no better than a trained dog.  Just because someone says "are you gonna drag me?" does not mean that you in fact need to drag somebody.

By this analogy, if a woman says to a man "You gonna rape me?" then he should absolutely get to raping, right?

The problem is people are trying to equate Candiace's actions with Monique's (and wanting her to get the same consequences) or blaming Monique's actions on Candiace (it's Candiace's fault she got beat) and both premises are wrong. Monique was doing just as much as Candiace before the fight with the handwaving and fingers in the face but Monique is the one who's going to have to get this dance because Monique is the one who decided to put her hands on Candiace.  It is what it is.

22 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Candiace is also still wrong for her words and participation in the escalation including some physical action.

Nobody here has said Candiace was right.   But there are a whole lot of people here and on other forums who not only believe Candiace is to blame for getting a beatdown, they are cheering Monique for having done so and it's sad.

[howiveaddict]

6 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Are there dog breeds that can fly? Because I don’t see how that would be effective. Not that I support species on species violence anymore than I support violence amongst humans. 

I don't know. I had a dog who would jump up and try to get birds.  He wasn't the brightest though.

Gizelle's wigs this episode looked terrible.  

[PhilMarlowe2]

3 hours ago, drivethroo said:

If you punch somebody in the face just because somebody says "You gonna punch me in the face?" you are no better than a trained dog.  Just because someone says "are you gonna drag me?" does not mean that you in fact need to drag somebody.

Right. Nowhere in my post did I say that Monique was justified in her actions, or that Candiace was to blame for the situation, or that Candiace deserved it. In fact, I clearly said otherwise. My basic point is simply that Candiace is not blameless in the situation, she did contribute to the escalating fight and that she therefore has some responsibility for the way things turned out. Or, to be more specific, my post was responding to the idea that Candiace was like someone whose phone got stolen from her unlocked car - which, to me, suggests more or less total innocence save for an absentminded lack of common sense. Candiace was not an oblivious innocent in this situation. She didn't deserve to be assaulted, but she also was not a passive victim.

Edited October 13, 2020 by PhilMarlowe2

[RealReality]

3 hours ago, biakbiak said:

As was acknowledged in the post you quoted. Candiace is also still wrong for her words and participation in the escalation including some physical action. Holding Monique accountable for her actions doesn’t prevent one from holding Candiace accountable for hers.

I just wish people made the distinction as @eleanorofaquitaine made.  

Candace is accountable for her actions if she made someone annoyed or upset.  But all of these women are hired to annoy and upset each other for our entertainment.  So had Monique just argued with her and they verbally sparred with each other, I'd be like "yeah, those two women are equally culpable for the verbal battle"  or at the very least I couldn't disagree with anyone who said that.  

But Candace's accountability and responsibility doesn't include being beaten up or eliciting a physical attack.  

Making someone annoyed or upset doesn't mean that you're responsible for being physically attacked.  There are very, very, very rare exceptions and this wasn't one of them.  

So, I guess my issue is with the idea that both parties are equally culpable for Monique physically attacking Candace.  And so often, when the issue of Candace being annoying comes up, it is as an excuse for Monique's behavior, or an "explanation" when I think it it neither of those things really.  

[RealReality]

16 minutes ago, PhilMarlowe2 said:

Right. Nowhere in my post did I say that Monique was justified in her actions, or that Candiace was to blame for the situation, or that Candiace deserved it. In fact, I clearly said otherwise. My basic point is simply that Candiace is not blameless in the situation, she did contribute to the escalating fight and that she therefore has some responsibility for the way things turned out. Or, to be more specific, my post was responding to the idea that Candiace was like someone who's phone got stolen from her unlocked car - which, to me, suggests more or less total innocence save for an absentminded lack of common sense. Candiace was not an oblivious innocent in this situation. She didn't deserve to be assaulted, but she also was not a passive victim.

See, yeah, I cannot agree with that.  The fight should not have ever escalated to physical violence so that is fully on Monique.  Candace has no responsibility for a grown woman who does not understand how to use her words when she is upset.  Had Monique just gotten mad and argued back, fine.  But if a verbal argument or annoyance doesn't justify physical violence (and IMO, it does not) or make the person who is verbally arguing culpable or liable for getting beaten than Candace being annoying, antagonizing and argumentative does not make her in any way responsible or culpable for Monique's attack. 

To me, its more like the person who shoots another driver who cut them off on the freeway.  Like yeah, are you responsible for making the other driver mad?  Sure?  Do you bear some responsibility if they pull up next to you and flip you the bird?  Yeah.  But are you responsible for them pulling out a gun and shooting you?  No, not to me.  

[RealReality]

3 hours ago, drivethroo said:

If you punch somebody in the face just because somebody says "You gonna punch me in the face?" you are no better than a trained dog.  Just because someone says "are you gonna drag me?" does not mean that you in fact need to drag somebody.

By this analogy, if a woman says to a man "You gonna rape me?" then he should absolutely get to raping, right?

The problem is people are trying to equate Candiace's actions with Monique's (and wanting her to get the same consequences) or blaming Monique's actions on Candiace (it's Candiace's fault she got beat) and both premises are wrong. Monique was doing just as much as Candiace before the fight with the handwaving and fingers in the face but Monique is the one who's going to have to get this dance because Monique is the one who decided to put her hands on Candiace.  It is what it is.

Nobody here has said Candiace was right.   But there are a whole lot of people here and on other forums who not only believe Candiace is to blame for getting a beatdown, they are cheering Monique for having done so and it's sad.

Yes, exactly.  Saying "well she told me to do it!" takes all agency away from a grown adult to make a decision and do the right thing.  Which is to do what Monique did when it was tall, athletic and strong Robyn and run away, muttering under her breath.    It never escapes me that Monique was so "triggered" and "couldn't control her rage" around the smallest castmember who had no other friends in the cast and was universally reviled.  A convenient victim if there ever was one.  But maybe this alleged "bullying" has made Monique careful to pick easy victims.  

Candace was doing her damn job.  They are the "Real Housewives of Potomac" not the "Best Friends who Never Upset Each Other of Potomac"  Shading and antagonizing is part of the job.  I certainly didn't want to watch a show where Monique continually picks fights with Candace and Candace has to walk away or apologize for doing NOTHING WRONG.  The last time Monique tried to pick a fight was when Candace had the gall to tell Ashley privately about Michael's hooker escapades instead of coming out to the campfire.  Before that Monique was angry that Candace wouldn't be her punching bag on her podcast.  There is only so much of that nonsense that Candace should have to put up with before she stands up for herself.   

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Karen's hometown segment was the best part of the episode.

Loved seeing my people living well and thriving.

[qtpye]

11 hours ago, Boo Boo said:

I am so not interested in watching Robin and Juan role play. I am convinced that Juan is only interested in Robin b/c it's cheaper to be with her.  And she's a fucking idiot when it comes to finances.  

Robyn is an attractive woman but role playing a vampy seductress does not come naturally to her. It was a little Mrs. Doubtfire ish.

[lamujerdecente]

I am tired of this fight too. I find the Potomac cast the least offensive besides New York City pre Dorinda thinking being an ass all day all night was the way to stardom. I like that they are all very pretty, stunning even and besides the garish dressing of some, wigs, the lashes, etc. and don’t look as plastic as other cough, OC, JERSEY, BH, heck even Atalanta, but the stupid, fights that drag. ugh. It is enough. Bravo. These bishes are MESSY. Monique dirtying dancing her own Patrick Swaze and Ashley’s swinger life with her messy hubby. Giselle’s fashion and fake love with a HOE. Her husband is dirty. Punto. I am with Giz’s silver fox Daddy. 
 

Robin and Juan. Proving that fly couples cheat too.

 

Karen. I can’t quit her. She’s like if I love New York, Tiffany was a manor born southern belle. But Karen? That bish is a hunter. She ain’t playing. She knows how to hide and SKIN the bodies boo. 
 

 

I love the farm was THEIRS. YESsss.  The legacy of that. Slavery to land owners. I got chills. 
 

I wish the Grand Dame would get better wigs or get a low cut natural hair cut. I adore Karen. But that blond wig. I am Caribbean. I can’t say yes to dreadful wigs cuz I love u. I would be an enabler. Like I am about these eye lashes with the teen. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by lamujerdecente

[ErikaAlyson]

I think Ray is upset about the rumor from last season about mr. Blue eyes. I think he's being passive aggressive. I also think Ashley was being passive aggressive in her TH about putting a tracker in Michael's butt lol. She's tired of his cheating. I thought when Robyn had the wig on,the producers told her to amp it up for the scene. Cute Juan seems uncomfortable on camera. Karen's family seemed sweet. Was she sitting on her aunt's lap? Gizelle seemed kind of jealous when she was visiting Karen's hometown. Candiace's food setup was nice when she invited Robyn over. But I don't think she should of asked Robyn about her taxes on camera. I'll have to rewatch,but it didn't seem like Monique was really listening to her pastor. What does her nice husband Chris see in her? 

[ErikaAlyson]

I didn't like Gizelle's wig this episode but I think women should wear whatever they want to feel beautiful. Fake implants,tanning,make up,hair extensions.

[drivethroo]

3 hours ago, PhilMarlowe2 said:

My basic point is simply that Candiace is not blameless in the situation, she did contribute to the escalating fight and that she therefore has some responsibility for the way things turned out.

I'd agree with you IF Candiace was the one who was flicking Monique's hair as she said "You gone drag me?"  But that's what happened; Monique's fingers were in Candiace's face too and nothing Candiace said that night was provoking to the point of fighting.  Monique was fighting because she wanted to fight.  I suspect if Candiace had put a beatdown on Monique after Monique had her fingers in Candiace's face, there wouldn't be any "But Monique!".  Candiace would be universally vilified.

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

Robyn is an attractive woman but role playing a vampy seductress does not come naturally to her. It was a little Mrs. Doubtfire ish.

If Robyn had shown up as Shayla the WNBA player, it would've been more believable.

2 hours ago, ErikaOnline said:

I'll have to rewatch,but it didn't seem like Monique was really listening to her pastor. What does her nice husband Chris see in her? 

I think inviting the pastor was two parts image management, one part guilt.  She was managing her image for Chris and the show by using the pastor, the pastor saw through it and gave her a read, Monique put on the tears to get out of it.  She got nothing out of the pastor's talk.  But he wasn't there for Monique to get anything out of in the first place and the pastor (and first lady) saw through it.

[qtpye]

I felt bad that Big Chris probably will not be able to hang out with White Chris, anymore. He seemed sad about that.

[Vanderboom]

Karen is at her best when she's real and self-aware. I loved the trip to Surry (sp?) County. Gizelle, of course, remained condescending and shady--"She's like the Beyonce of this town." As entertaining as Gizelle can be, it's like she has a compulsion to snark on Karen. Why not let her have this moment? You already heard her family say that this is Karen's first visit since her parents were laid to rest. Karen can be a trip, but you can tease her lightly without sounding like such a hater.

I still don't get Dr. Wendy's angle, but I loved her sister's impression of their mom. It's not as if we're in the first season or two of the Real Housewives franchise, so how does Wendy think appearing on this show gels with her political commentator brand?

Robyn is at her best when she's the voice of reason for her crazy castmates, but apparently she can't manage her money. Wouldn't the bankruptcy process make you more vigilant about your money afterwards? And the sheepish tee-hee-hee attitude makes Robyn look incompetent, not sympathetic. 

[LaurelleJ]

12 hours ago, RealReality said:

I just wish people made the distinction as @eleanorofaquitaine made.  

Candace is accountable for her actions if she made someone annoyed or upset.  But all of these women are hired to annoy and upset each other for our entertainment.  So had Monique just argued with her and they verbally sparred with each other, I'd be like "yeah, those two women are equally culpable for the verbal battle"  or at the very least I couldn't disagree with anyone who said that.  

But Candace's accountability and responsibility doesn't include being beaten up or eliciting a physical attack.  

Making someone annoyed or upset doesn't mean that you're responsible for being physically attacked.  There are very, very, very rare exceptions and this wasn't one of them.  

So, I guess my issue is with the idea that both parties are equally culpable for Monique physically attacking Candace.  And so often, when the issue of Candace being annoying comes up, it is as an excuse for Monique's behavior, or an "explanation" when I think it it neither of those things really.  

This, this, and more this. The two do not deserve equal blame, nothing will change my mind on that. It is their job to argue with each other. They get in a room, they argue, they leave, and probably call each other in the morning and laugh about it or even plan the next argument. I've heard some of them say that the viewers live through the episodes time, but they film then move on. That's why it's easier for them to move on because they are not living the same timetable as the show airing. 

8 hours ago, qtpye said:

I felt bad that Big Chris probably will not be able to hang out with White Chris, anymore. He seemed sad about that.

I do too. From the earlier seasons it seems like all the guys, with the exception of Chris B and Michael, got along. It even seemed like Chris S. and Juan got along. I wonder if they didn't hang as much because Robyn and Monique didn't get along, which I still maintain that they would have gotten along if it weren't for her 4 homes beef with Gizelle. 

[nexxie]

imo Monique exploded because she felt disrespected - that’s the word she used in describing Candiace’s behavior. And I agree that shrieking, taunting and shoving hands into someone’s space is disrespectful. Monique would do herself a favor by looking at all the people in her life - past and present - that made/make her feel disrespected. Starting - as posters have pointed out - with her husband (who thought it funny to disrespect her in front of her colleagues and on TV, the asshole), but not stopping there.

 

[Rlb8031]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2020 at 10:47 PM, pasdetrois said:

That's my animal shelter where I volunteer!

But why is a PG County resident trying to adopt in Arlington County?

Because they let Bravo film in Arlington County...

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2020 at 2:04 AM, drivethroo said:

Since Robyn & Juan know finances helped destroy marriage #1 and Robyn is not good with money, they need to turn over their financial management to a financial manager, accountant and tax attorney in the future if they want marriage #2 not to go down the same road.

That's how they lost all their money the first time. They trusted a "family friend" who served as their financial manager - he stole their money and invested in a bunch of crap. That's probably why Robyn opted to do it herself.

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Rlb8031

[qtpye]

My two cents:

• Monique will not be kicked off the show because the rivalry between her and Gizelle is actually what fuels most of the interest.
• I am not saying Monique DESERVES to stay on the show. On the contrary, she has shown no or very little remorse for her actions.
• However, I have a feeling that the dislike between her and G is organic. The only difference is that if it were not for the show, they just would not fuck with each other.

I love Karen. Her story of her family going from slaves to successful landowners was beautiful.  However, most of the story lines on the show are lame and played out. The fact that Gizelle is pretending to actually get together with a man that has humiliated her several times, proves how these ladies are really do not have enough stuff going on to make a good tv show.

I like the cast (still on the fence about Dr. Windy) but take away the Monique drama and there is no season.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

14 hours ago, PhilMarlowe2 said:

Right. Nowhere in my post did I say that Monique was justified in her actions, or that Candiace was to blame for the situation, or that Candiace deserved it. In fact, I clearly said otherwise. My basic point is simply that Candiace is not blameless in the situation, she did contribute to the escalating fight and that she therefore has some responsibility for the way things turned out. Or, to be more specific, my post was responding to the idea that Candiace was like someone whose phone got stolen from her unlocked car - which, to me, suggests more or less total innocence save for an absentminded lack of common sense. Candiace was not an oblivious innocent in this situation. She didn't deserve to be assaulted, but she also was not a passive victim.

No, she's really not to blame for the situation, unless you believe that Monique is not an adult who has no control over her emotions. She may share blame for the deterioration of their relationship. And she may share blame about contributing to a scene at the winery. But Monique's decision to physically assault her is ALL on Monique, and no amount of "but Candiace runs her mouth!" is going to change that. 

I'm not sure why people don't understand that.  Plenty of people are provoked by provoking people without becoming violent. I'm not sure why there is such a rush to absolve Monique of her behavior and I'm sorry, the number of times I've seen "well, sure, yeah, right Monique was wrong but..." followed by a paragraph of invective towards Candiace is really disappointing. 

[Sweet-tea]

21 hours ago, Rahul said:

Wendy and her sister wear far, far too much makeup. Why must they cake on layer upon layer?

I'm so tired of this fight. It's ruining the season for me.

And the false eyelashes are so obvious! Actually, just about all the women on this show wear them. Am I missing something? Is this the trend now? I don't have any friends who wear them. 

Can someone please help Gizelle find better wigs? That last one she had on was awful. Same goes for Karen with that blonde monstrosity. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Sweet-tea

[RealReality]

3 hours ago, nexxie said:

imo Monique exploded because she felt disrespected - that’s the word she used in describing Candiace’s behavior. And I agree that shrieking, taunting and shoving hands into someone’s space is disrespectful. Monique would do herself a favor by looking at all the people in her life - past and present - that made/make her feel disrespected. Starting - as posters have pointed out - with her husband (who thought it funny to disrespect her in front of her colleagues and on TV, the asshole), but not stopping there.

 

Monique has been disrespected by Gizelle on multiple occasions and has said as much.  In her own home no less. 

I think Monique would be best served by stopping with all her excuses and taking a deep, meaningful look at herself and ask why, out of all the people on this show who have "disrespected" her, she chose to physically attack the smallest person with the least power, the least support and the person who had shown their weakness this season by constantly submitting to Monique by walking away or apologizing.  

I'm sure that no one wants to admit that they are a bully, but if this is the case, and Monique simply chooses the weakest and easiest victim, than I think she is better served by working to change her mindset and behavior with regards to that.  

Edited October 13, 2020 by RealReality

[RealReality]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

My two cents:

• Monique will not be kicked off the show because the rivalry between her and Gizelle is actually what fuels most of the interest.
• I am not saying Monique DESERVES to stay on the show. On the contrary, she has shown no or very little remorse for her actions.
• However, I have a feeling that the dislike between her and G is organic. The only difference is that if it were not for the show, they just would not fuck with each other.

 

I like the cast (still on the fence about Dr. Windy) but take away the Monique drama and there is no season.

Thats too bad, because I enjoy the show, but I won't be watching if they keep Monique on.  And honestly, I don't think they need her for much of anything.  

I think its really the Gizelle and Karen rivalry that keeps the show going.  It also feels organic, but fun and shady, not dark and mean spirited.  Even with that shirt Gizelle wore, which was one of the most over the top things I've ever seen.

If Gizelle holds firm and won't film with Monique, than its really all for naught.  And frankly, Monique is pretty boring.  The most exciting thing about her is T'Challa, and he is far wittier and entertaining than she is, IMO.  I mean even when they visited her lakehouse, everyone was bored.  It was up to the other women to liven it up with the impromptu pageant battle.  When she hosted a vacation,  Gizelle and Robyn didn't even want to go to the essential oil factory....and it was kinda boring.  

Wendy already showed she can read a bitch for filth so I think there are all sorts of conflicts she can get into.  Gizelle and Karen are central.  Ashley and Candace are villains, though I think Candace could end up a Kenya, which is fine because I love me some Kenya.  Robyn is a Cynthia-esque character, but I like her more.  

I'm also excited to follow Candace to school!  I'm not sure if a show has done this or had a cast member who was in the logical age range to go back to school, but this sounds like fun!

[MrsRafaelBarba]

15 hours ago, qtpye said:

Robyn is an attractive woman but role playing a vampy seductress does not come naturally to her. It was a little Mrs. Doubtfire ish.

That was quite cringy.

 Juan and Robin are roommates at this point

  He's just not that into her, but has no other options

  Robyn can do better, get a man who actually wants her and isn't settling.

Edited October 13, 2020 by MrsRafaelBarba

[nexxie]

57 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Monique has been disrespected by Gizelle on multiple occasions and has said as much.  In her own home no less. 

I think Monique would be best served by stopping with all her excuses and taking a deep, meaningful look at herself and ask why, out of all the people on this show who have "disrespected" her, she chose to physically attack the smallest person with the least power, the least support and the person who had shown their weakness this season by constantly submitting to Monique by walking away or apologizing.  

I'm sure that no one wants to admit that they are a bully, but if this is the case, and Monique simply chooses the weakest and easiest victim, than I think she is better served by working to change her mindset and behavior with regards to that.  

Monique could be choosing the easiest victim - or the one who reminds her of someone, or even reminds her of herself. Likely the show won’t cover an in-depth journey into any of this - likely Monique won’t even want to figure it out.

[nexxie]

Liked the sister vibe between Wendy and Ivy - and Bayou Penne with Sausage please! Mmmm

[drivethroo]

5 hours ago, LaurelleJ said:

I wonder if they didn't hang as much because Robyn and Monique didn't get along, which I still maintain that they would have gotten along if it weren't for her 4 homes beef with Gizelle. 

I think Robyn would've gotten along with Monique had Monique's family not been clowning Robyn on social media. Robyn seems very easy going and able to get along with others.

5 hours ago, nexxie said:

imo Monique exploded because she felt disrespected

Yes and in the hood you don't let anyone disrespect you, especially in front of your friends, without you coming for them.

In my opinion, that beating wasn't just for Candiace; it was to let Gizelle, Robyn and Wendy know they can catch those hands next (hence why Gizelle brought her own bodyguard to the meeting with Monique).

4 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

That's how they lost all their money the first time. They trusted a "family friend" who served as their financial manager - he stole their money and invested in a bunch of crap. That's probably why Robyn opted to do it herself.

There's a whole world between "shady friend who manages finances" and "tax accountant."  I know Robyn's parents could've recommended somebody to her to do her taxes, especially if her dad had his own practice.

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

I like the cast (still on the fence about Dr. Windy) but take away the Monique drama and there is no season.

It's all about the story the producers want to tell. Whenever we see those "Never Before Seen Scenes!" episodes they show before the reunions, we see all sorts of moments that would've made for an entertaining episode/storyline but they never show them, because that's not the story the producers want to tell. We don't know what road this season would've gone down if Monique hadn't put her hands on Candiace.

3 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I'm not sure why there is such a rush to absolve Monique of her behavior and I'm sorry, the number of times I've seen "well, sure, yeah, right Monique was wrong but..." followed by a paragraph of invective towards Candiace is really disappointing. 

Because people don't like Candiace/have a Candiace-like person in their lives and they are living vicariously through Monique.  A lot of people cheer on Monique for beating Candiace, justifying it with "Well talk shit get hit" when they know good and well they do not go around beating up people who disrespect them in their off-line lives.

1 hour ago, RealReality said:

Thats too bad, because I enjoy the show, but I won't be watching if they keep Monique on.  And honestly, I don't think they need her for much of anything.  

I think the show could keep Monique on without having her film with Gizelle/Robyn/Wendy/Candiace by showing what happens when you're ostracized from the group and they could bring on a new "friend" for Monique to film with.  Gizelle or somebody throws a party and everyone is invited except Monique...do Ashley and Karen go and ki ki it up with the rest of the clique or do they not go to show solidarity with Monique? How does Ashley/Karen continuing to socialize with the rest of the ladies affect their relationships, or does it?  What if this new friend was a well connected socialite in her own right?

I know Housewives have fought people and remained on the show.  However, its usually when other cast members refuse to film with you that you get shown the door.

Edited October 13, 2020 by drivethroo

[Rambunctiouscurls]

I made the mistake of checking Twitter and the majority of people are on Monique's side. When did it become acceptable to assault anyone? Despite the fact that Candiace's annoying behavior did not warrant Monique's absolutely psychotic response. I really hope she is fired. I really do not want to watch grown women pulling each other's hair. 

Karen's visit home was beautiful. Learning about her family farm's history was just *chefs' kiss* incredible and proof of Black excellence and perseverance. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Rambunctiouscurls
spacing

[RealReality]

38 minutes ago, drivethroo said:

 

In my opinion, that beating wasn't just for Candiace; it was to let Gizelle, Robyn and Wendy know they can catch those hands next (hence why Gizelle brought her own bodyguard to the meeting with Monique).

There's a whole world between "shady friend who manages finances" and "tax accountant."  I know Robyn's parents could've recommended somebody to her to do her taxes, especially if her dad had his own practice.

It's all about the story the producers want to tell. Whenever we see those "Never Before Seen Scenes!" episodes they show before the reunions, we see all sorts of moments that would've made for an entertaining episode/storyline but they never show them, because that's not the story the producers want to tell. We don't know what road this season would've gone down if Monique hadn't put her hands on Candiace.

 

I think the show could keep Monique on without having her film with Gizelle/Robyn/Wendy/Candiace by showing what happens when you're ostracized from the group and they could bring on a new "friend" for Monique to film with.  Gizelle or somebody throws a party and everyone is invited except Monique...do Ashley and Karen go and ki ki it up with the rest of the clique or do they not go to show solidarity with Monique? How does Ashley/Karen continuing to socialize with the rest of the ladies affect their relationships, or does it?  What if this new friend was a well connected socialite in her own right? What

 

I think this MIGHT work if Monique were someone who was naturally entertaining, like Gizelle.  Much as she gives us fashion fair realness (TM:some other poster) and 90s auntie fashions, she is entertaining and funny and would be so opposite anyone or even by herself in a cardboard box.

But IMO, Monique is kinda boring.  So far I can only remember one really good read about how Gizelle needed a ghost reader, and that was funny, but its pretty rare.  Even when she was around her friend from back in the day it was kinda boring.  It might work if her "friend" was T'Challa, but how long can they sustain that?  Monique seems to ruin a lot of her human friendships (Gigi, Candace, Charisse) so then it would just be Monique physically attacking someone else.

Her kids are cute and I like T'Challa, but watching Monique sit at home or go out for coffee with some new person sounds kinda boring.  

I can't see what she brings to the show that makes her salvageable.  At the end of the day, she just isn't as smart, witty or entertaining as the other women.  Right now "ghost reader" is the only good shade I can think of her throwing.  

Robyn would be perfectly fine with Monique's hands, which is why Monique ran away from her.  But, in practice, I'm so against the idea of trying to make the women watch what they say around her since this is a show where the women are supposed to argue for my entertainment.  If Monique cannot handle that, she should go do her podcast and sell her scammy essential oils.  

Honestly, maybe she needs some lavender essential oil for all that rage.  

Edited October 13, 2020 by RealReality

[Marley]

Maybe Monique should go to an actual therapist because her pastor was speaking nonsense. What a joke. So she got bullied ok honestly that sucks and I don’t agree with bullying but lots of ppl have gone thru that. It doesn’t mean like 20 years later you can go crazy and fight some chick for being an annoying pest. Candiace can be annoying but Monique is 100% in the wrong. You don’t just fight ppl it’s fucked up. Also ok maybe if it was just a fight but she actually escapes after and tried to get Candiace again. If this is how angry you get you need therapy like intensely not some weird fucking pastor who talks nonsense. Why was the pastors wife there too? Sorry I’m not religious but is that how it goes the pastors wife goes around with him while he doles out pathetic advice.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Marley

[eleanorofaquitaine]

2 hours ago, drivethroo said:

Because people don't like Candiace/have a Candiace-like person in their lives and they are living vicariously through Monique.  A lot of people cheer on Monique for beating Candiace, justifying it with "Well talk shit get hit" when they know good and well they do not go around beating up people who disrespect them in their off-line lives.

The thing is, I don't particularly like Candiace - I thought she was pretty awful to Ashley last season. But I have seen some growth and maturity in her this season. And regardless, I'm pretty sure that the law doesn't believe that a proper defense to an assault is "the victim had a smart mouth."

[emmawoodhouse]

Maybe the preacher's wife was there because he was counseling a woman? Religious people sometimes have weird rules about interactions with the opposite sex.

Edited October 13, 2020 by emmawoodhouse
Post snuck in between the one I was responding to

[Stats Queen]

3 hours ago, Rambunctiouscurls said:

 

I made the mistake of checking Twitter and the majority of people are on Monique's side. When did it become acceptable to assault anyone? Despite the fact that Candiace's annoying behavior did not warrant Monique's absolutely psychotic response. I really hope she is fired. I really do not want to watch grown women pulling each other's hair. 

 

 

I much prefer the posters here - who are insightful and can agree to disagree - which is how I prefer the adults I interact with.

From a Pew Research Study:

U.S. adult Twitter users are younger and more likely to be Democrats than the general public. Most users rarely tweet, but the most prolific 10% create 80% of tweets from adult U.S. users. 

Another study said that 22% of Americans have Twitter accounts.

So companies like Bravo who seem to use Twitter as a their main barometer of what their consumers want are actually looking at a very small fraction of said viewers. (Or those companies who pull ads or products based solely on this small fraction of complainers).

I don’t know for a fact that Bravo relies heavily on Twitter, instead of actual scientific market studies that accurately reflect the overall population of their viewers (and potential future viewers) but the way the last couple of years have been across all of the RH franchises really makes me think they do.

 

 

 

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, Stats Queen said:

I much prefer the posters here - who are insightful and can agree to disagree - which is how I prefer the adults I interact with.

From a Pew Research Study:

U.S. adult Twitter users are younger and more likely to be Democrats than the general public. Most users rarely tweet, but the most prolific 10% create 80% of tweets from adult U.S. users. 

Another study said that 22% of Americans have Twitter accounts.

So companies like Bravo who seem to use Twitter as a their main barometer of what their consumers want are actually looking at a very small fraction of said viewers. (Or those companies who pull ads or products based solely on this small fraction of complainers).

I don’t know for a fact that Bravo relies heavily on Twitter, instead of actual scientific market studies that accurately reflect the overall population of their viewers (and potential future viewers) but the way the last couple of years have been across all of the RH franchises really makes me think they do.

 

 

 

Thank you for doing the actual research, because yeah, if you use Twitter as a general barometer Kim Kardashian should win a Nobel Prize and Cardi B. a Pulitzer.  Potomac viewers who are active on social media are likely a vocal minority.  I'm not sure if Bravo caters to them, maybe they do, but what I DO know is that when Porsha dragged Kenya social media was solidly and squarely on Porsha's side.  In spite of that, Porsha was not brought back the next season and maybe not the season after that.  Which is to say that Bravo may have other considerations besides who is more popular on social media.  

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by RealReality

[RealReality]

2 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Maybe the preacher's wife was there because he was counseling a woman? Religious people sometimes have weird rules about interactions with the opposite sex.

I kinda think the pastor and his wife like being on television.  I'm not gonna hate on that, maybe they are trying to build up to Jamal status.  

Monique really missed an opportunity.  She could have had the pastor and his wife over for counseling about the propriety of her relationship with her trainer, the optics, and what boundaries needed to be set with members of the opposite sex.  That way she could control the narrative and make it sound like she was only crossed some boundaries but never actually cheated on Chris.  Instead of the rumor being out there and people thinking that the reason she is so pressed is became the rumors ARE true.  

At the end of the day, Monique's story line ended up revolving around a rumor that she actively tried to avoid going public....and Gizelle made it public in like 30 seconds.  Monique could have both controlled the narrative and had an interesting storyline and could have had the pastor and first lady there giving advice and counsel on TV.  

[drivethroo]

5 hours ago, Marley said:

Maybe Monique should go to an actual therapist because her pastor was speaking nonsense. What a joke. So she got bullied ok honestly that sucks and I don’t agree with bullying but lots of ppl have gone thru that. It doesn’t meant like 20 years later you can go crazy and fight some chick for being an annoying pest.

The pastor never said it was ok.  Monique kept trying to justify why she beat up Candiace and the pastor said she had often spoken of being bullied when younger and being in fights all the time, so fighting is Monique's go-to method to resolve conflict.  Monique was trying to put the responsibility of the fight on Candiace and the pastor wasn't having it.

5 hours ago, Marley said:

Why was the pastors wife there too? Sorry I’m not religious but is that how it goes the pastors wife goes around with him while he doles out pathetic advice.

Sometimes the pastor's wife comes along when the pastor is meeting with a woman.

Some denominations frown upon men being around women they aren't married to and vice versa (see Mike Pence).  If Monique's church has the belief that married men shouldn't be interacting closely with women they aren't married to or vice versa, and if Monique's friend Gigi belongs to this same church, this could be why Gigi was concerned about Monique and the trainer and then went to her husband, who then went to Chris. (allegedly).

2 hours ago, RealReality said:

At the end of the day, Monique's story line ended up revolving around a rumor that she actively tried to avoid going public....and Gizelle made it public in like 30 seconds.  Monique could have both controlled the narrative and had an interesting storyline and could have had the pastor and first lady there giving advice and counsel on TV.  

Monique and her shenanigans trying to shut down the trainer rumors for the past year are a perfect example of the Streisand Effect.

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by drivethroo

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, drivethroo said:

 

Monique and her shenanigans trying to shut down the trainer rumors for the past year are a perfect example of the Streisand Effect.

 

LOL, I totally forgot there was a name for it!

[eleanorofaquitaine]

8 hours ago, drivethroo said:

The pastor never said it was ok.  Monique kept trying to justify why she beat up Candiace and the pastor said she had often spoken of being bullied when younger and being in fights all the time, so fighting is Monique's go-to method to resolve conflict.  Monique was trying to put the responsibility of the fight on Candiace and the pastor wasn't having it.

That was my read of the pastor's comments, too. He wasn't letting her off the hook at all - he was trying to get her to look inside herself to see why she reacted this way but it wasn't to absolve her of her actions but instead to try to get her to take some responsibility. Obviously it hasn't worked because a year later, she's still not remorseful. But he tried. 

[drivethroo]

A post came across my FB feed that applies to this Monique situation from the book series "Boundaries."   It talked about controlling people.  It said controllers don't want to take responsibility for their own lives so they need to control others. It goes on to say many controllers are perceived as bullies, manipulative and aggressive.  It says the primary problem of controllers is they tend to project responsibility for their lives onto others.

I think this applies to Monique and the pastor said it also.  Monique wants to control everyone and everything and the only person Monique can control is Monique.  This entire season, we've seen instances of Monique trying to control the situation with Gigi, Charrisse and Candiace (because she can't control the situation with Chris).

Monique refuses to take responsibility for her life and her actions and that's why half the cast wants nothing to do with her, not necessarily the fight (except for Candiace).

Taking responsibility for her life and actions (not just the fight but all of Monique's life) requires some introspection, which the pastor was pointing out, but Monique is not there yet and may never get there.  She says the right things when called out but she has no intention of changing things because it's always going to be someone else's fault.  The pastor knows that and the cast knows it too. Monique is in "survival mode" and she's going to do and say whatever it takes to survive and I really don't think you can be introspective when you're in survival mode.

Edited October 14, 2020 by drivethroo

[ladle]

I don't want to be an ass, but the food that Dr. Wendy and her sister were eating looked... kind of gross.  Not a great advertisement for that restaurant. 

[ladle]

On 10/12/2020 at 8:42 AM, Newmy said:

I’m a little surprised that Dr. Wendy is considering walking away from her job. I’m also a college professor (with four degrees!!!!) and it’s truly the best job ever. You work part-time, 8 months out of the year, and in certain departments make six figures. Plus, most profs get complete autonomy and freedom in their jobs, which is a huge plus. Then again, I don’t know the specifics of her situation, but as a working mom myself (and single mom at that), I couldn’t ask for a better work/life balance. Full time professor roles are also very competitive and hard to get.

Same.  And while I'm sure it happens, it is so rare for someone to go through grad school, get on the tenure track, go through a few years of that and then just...drop out.  With no real backup plan.  Especially if they've managed to land a TT-job in a desirable location close to family-- which is so difficult.  What's still missing for me is an explanation of why Dr. Wendy wants to stop being a professor.  She says it's because she wants to be a commentator, but she can absolutely be a professor and still do that.  Lots of people do that.  Heck-- she has been doing that!  So: huh?

 

ETA: The flexibility is great, but my job is definitely full-time and I definitely work more than 8 months out of the year!  That said, the real grind was grad school and landing that tenure-track job.  Everything past that point seemed easy in comparison.  It would be such a weird time to drop out, unless you knew you were about to be denied tenure.

Edited October 14, 2020 by ladle

[Neurochick]

21 hours ago, drivethroo said:

Yes and in the hood you don't let anyone disrespect you, especially in front of your friends, without you coming for them.

In my opinion, that beating wasn't just for Candiace; it was to let Gizelle, Robyn and Wendy know they can catch those hands next (hence why Gizelle brought her own bodyguard to the meeting with Monique).

Monique made a stupid generalization about "the hood."  Plenty of people live in the hood who never go around fighting in the street.  Monique used "the hood" as an excuse for her behavior.

[lasu]

I'm honestly surprised (or am I, really?) at how many people are saying, Candiace didn't deserve to get hit, BUT...But, no.  Candiace's behavior is fair game for discussion, and her bad behavior didn't get erased the second she got snatched.  But it should be discussed separately, because there are virtually no words that should lead to physical violence (like, literally, the only exceptions would be something like, "I just killed your family member," then yes, go for it).  It's a hard stop.  

I've historically liked Monique a great deal, but I would not be friends or coworkers after this.  Why?  Because I have a sassy mouth and I'm not trying to get hit in it!  My mouth has gotten me into a great deal of trouble in my life, some of it warranted (loss of friends) and some unwarranted (I have been hit in my stupid sassy mouth).  I'm a lot better about controlling my mouth at 45 than I was at 25, but I still couldn't be friends with someone who I knew would put hands on me if I went too far.  I do believe you can verbally go too far, and even in my worst fights with loved ones, I almost always have somewhere I won't go.

I also have a huge problem with people who selectively can't control their temper, which is almost everyone who loses their temper.  The majority of abusers have all sorts of people they DO control their tempers around - bosses, police, strangers on the street, but they'll beat the shit out of their wives and say they couldn't help it.  If you can hold your temper with people who have more power than you (either because they are in a position of power, or simply more powerful physically), but you can't around people with less power than you?  Naw.

ETA:  If Monique lives in a world where if someone asks "you gone drag me," then you have no choice but to drag them, I want to know what she would do if I asked, "you gone gimme a million dollas?"

Edited October 14, 2020 by lasu

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, lasu said:

I'm honestly surprised (or am I, really?) at how many people are saying, Candiace didn't deserve to get hit, BUT...But, no.  Candiace's behavior is fair game for discussion, and her bad behavior didn't get erased the second she got snatched.  But it should be discussed separately, because there are virtually no words that should lead to physical violence (like, literally, the only exceptions would be something like, "I just killed your family member," then yes, go for it).  It's a hard stop.  

I've historically liked Monique a great deal, but I would not be friends or coworkers after this.  Why?  Because I have a sassy mouth and I'm not trying to get hit in it!  My mouth has gotten me into a great deal of trouble in my life, some of it warranted (loss of friends) and some unwarranted (I have been hit in my stupid sassy mouth).  I'm a lot better about controlling my mouth at 45 than I was at 25, but I still couldn't be friends with someone who I knew would put hands on me if I went too far.  I do believe you can verbally go too far, and even in my worst fights with loved ones, I almost always have somewhere I won't go.

I also have a huge problem with people who selectively can't control their temper, which is almost everyone who loses their temper.  The majority of abusers have all sorts of people they DO control their tempers around - bosses, police, strangers on the street, but they'll beat the shit out of their wives and say they couldn't help it.  If you can hold your temper with people who have more power than you (either because they are in a position of power, or simply more powerful physically), but you can't around people with less power than you?  Naw.

ETA:  If Monique lives in a world where if someone asks "you gone drag me," then you have no choice but to drag them, I want to know what she would do if I asked, "you gone gimme a million dollas?"

Monique's husband has deep pockets. If Monique keeps "dragging" people, you bet she is going to pay big money in settlements. She is lucky that Candiass was prevented from going after her because of the show's contracts.

Maybe I should ask Monique to drag me so I can retire early...

2 hours ago, ladle said:

Same.  And while I'm sure it happens, it is so rare for someone to go through grad school, get on the tenure track, go through a few years of that and then just...drop out.  With no real backup plan.  Especially if they've managed to land a TT-job in a desirable location close to family-- which is so difficult.  What's still missing for me is an explanation of why Dr. Wendy wants to stop being a professor.  She says it's because she wants to be a commentator, but she can absolutely be a professor and still do that.  Lots of people do that.  Heck-- she has been doing that!  So: huh?

 

ETA: The flexibility is great, but my job is definitely full-time and I definitely work more than 8 months out of the year!  That said, the real grind was grad school and landing that tenure-track job.  Everything past that point seemed easy in comparison.  It would be such a weird time to drop out, unless you knew you were about to be denied tenure.

I have posted something in the media thread that might explain Dr. Windy's motivations. However, this is all just rumor and speculations so I would take it with a grain of salt.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

2 hours ago, ladle said:

Same.  And while I'm sure it happens, it is so rare for someone to go through grad school, get on the tenure track, go through a few years of that and then just...drop out.  With no real backup plan.  Especially if they've managed to land a TT-track job in a desirable location close to family-- which is so difficult.  What's still missing for me is an explanation of why Dr. Wendy wants to stop being a professor.  She says it's because she wants to be a commentator, but she can absolutely be a professor and still do that.  Lots of people do that.  Heck-- she has been doing that!  So: huh?

Yeah, the whole situation with Wendy wanting to leave her job is strange. A LOT of academics would kill to be in her position - a tenure track job at an extremely prestigious university with some gigs on the side as a political commentator is the pinnacle of a career for many in academia.

But there is a part of me that understands it. When several years ago, I received a promotion that was really important to me and towards which I was working for years, it felt strange after striving so many years to not have that goal any more.  Wendy may feel similar. Plus, it does sound like she put a lot of pressure on herself to achieve her mother's goals, and I can understand wanting to achieve her own goals.

All of that being said, she has a lot more freedom to do stuff as a tenured professor - especially now. I think she does need to carve out a professional identity independent of her mother's goals for her, but she should do it while having a secure job, especially now. 

[amarante]

2 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Yeah, the whole situation with Wendy wanting to leave her job is strange. A LOT of academics would kill to be in her position - a tenure track job at an extremely prestigious university with some gigs on the side as a political commentator is the pinnacle of a career for many in academia.

But there is a part of me that understands it. When several years ago, I received a promotion that was really important to me and towards which I was working for years, it felt strange after striving so many years to not have that goal any more.  Wendy may feel similar. Plus, it does sound like she put a lot of pressure on herself to achieve her mother's goals, and I can understand wanting to achieve her own goals.

All of that being said, she has a lot more freedom to do stuff as a tenured professor - especially now. I think she does need to carve out a professional identity independent of her mother's goals for her, but she should do it while having a secure job, especially now. 

I didn't take Wendy's discussion seriously. To me, it was the equivalent of a humble brag.

All of her credibility would vanish if she no longer was a professor at a top rated university. The only thing that she could segue to would be a think tank but those would require much more work than a professor. I mean, how many real jobs have hours that would enable one to be on a reality show. There is a reason why none of the housewives has an actual high powered job that requires significant hours.

[ladle]

1 hour ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

All of that being said, she has a lot more freedom to do stuff as a tenured professor - especially now.

Oh, so she does have tenure?  There goes my "she's saving face because she knows she's not going to get tenure" theory! 

 

1 hour ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

But there is a part of me that understands it. When several years ago, I received a promotion that was really important to me and towards which I was working for years, it felt strange after striving so many years to not have that goal any more.  Wendy may feel similar. Plus, it does sound like she put a lot of pressure on herself to achieve her mother's goals, and I can understand wanting to achieve her own goals.

Right - I mean, I could theoretically see some reasons why she might want to leave academia, but the weird thing to me is that she hasn't really given a reason - at least on the show.  (Over to the other thread to check out qtpye's theory!)

 

1 hour ago, amarante said:

All of her credibility would vanish if she no longer was a professor at a top rated university. The only thing that she could segue to would be a think tank but those would require much more work than a professor. I mean, how many real jobs have hours that would enable one to be on a reality show. There is a reason why none of the housewives has an actual high powered job that requires significant hours.

Being a professor is a full-time job.  It's more flexible than other types of work - so, yeah, you might be able to take your kid to the dentist in the middle of the day on a Wednesday (or film a Housewives scene) but then you're up late on Saturday night reviewing grant applications.  I know people in my field who regularly work 80-hour weeks.  It is a really privileged position in a lot of ways, though.  And I totally agree that her credibility as a commentator stems from her academic appointment.