S05.E05: Look Who's Squawking

[Neurochick]

5 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Whether or not Wendy's feelings towards Ashley stem from her West African heritage, I do think she refused to apologize to Ashley - for behavior that she admitted came from her own frustration - because she feels that Ashley in particular is beneath her.  I suspect that is why she's so frustrated with Karen's attitude towards her - because she doesn't like the fact that Karen is making her feel less-than, which is exactly how she's treating Ashley.

It bothers me that Wendy is on Fox News.  I can see a network like Fox using someone like Wendy to say, "Look, this Black woman made it, what's wrong with you Black Americans?  She's just as Black as you."  Not really sweetie.  It's not about color, it's about lineage.  I don't know if Wendy was born privileged and if she was, how many generations does that go back?  If you look at most Black Americans, privilege stops at slavery. 

[sarkygal]

On 9/1/2020 at 11:28 AM, Bronzedog said:

Throughout previous seasons Michael made it pretty clear that he didn't want a baby.  My theory has always been that after one of his many scandals, I think last season, an agreement was brokered between Michael and Ashley in which he bought her silence and on air support in exchange for a baby.   She got the baby but it doesn't mean he ever changed his feelings about wanting one.

The earlier seasons was a Michael completely in lust with his trophy younger wife and willing to indulge her becoming a reality star. But then his private life (which doesn't bear well under public scrutiny) kept being spotlighted by the show. And his trophy wife started carving an identity for herself. I feel bad for baby Dean because Michael very clearly does not want to revisit the child rearing at this point in his life. Even in the brief snippets of Michael we've seen this season, I feel he's completely over his marriage.

I believe Ashley genuinely wanted a baby for herself, not just to anchor the marriage or ensure financial security. But now she's trapped as Michael's private life is now a series of scandals and she doesn't have much without him plus her PPD  I think the other ladies are acutely aware of how bad things are in Ashley's home, hence the weird overprotectiveness.

This is just my speculation, but all the ladies show disdain/hostility to Michael they they don't show Juan or the others. 

[Jack Terrier]

On 9/3/2020 at 10:08 AM, lasu said:

OK, I went back and watched this more than once (I do NOT like what the pandemic is doing to me, lol), and my ruling is that  Wendy definitely started it and there would have been no argument if she hadn't started with Ashley.  As Monique is describing the bedroom situation, you can see Wendy's face betraying some feeling as soon as Monique says Ashley's baby would be there.  Yet, she says nothing to the host, who clearly would have been the person to decide who was and was not allowed regardless of the size of the guest.  The the bird attack happens as Ashley comes is, which while neither here nor there, was some of the funniest shit I've ever seen on TV.  I'm also not a huge fan of birds, but holy fuck, THAT was a reaction!

So Ashley with Dean, and it's actually Robyn who kicks things off, asking why Michael didn't watch Dean (though she uses a very purposeful inflection [IMO) to soften something that could sound very judgmental).  Ashley responds, "No, I couldn't be away from him that long," in a kind of "I know I'm absurd" voice.  And this is where Wendy was wrong - as Ashley is saying this, Wendy's entire posture chances and she literally side eyes Ashley, and say, "Ashley, c'mon."  There's no question (to me) that she is pissed, and it's coming of as judgmental and it doesn't go unnoticed by anyone in the room.  Gizelle and Robyn immediately start saying things like "she's a new mom!  Don't judge!"  I think both Gizelle and Robyn know that a three-month old baby can be cared for by his father for three days, but they are also being sympathetic to a new mom.  Wendy starts saying she is a new mom too!  Her baby is even younger!  But Gizelle, Robyn, and Ashley start pointing out it's her third!  Not the same!  

This is actually a weird situation where for once I think Ashley should have let other fight her battle for her, at least on this particular point.  I'm not a mom and I actually pretty strongly dislike baby babies.  I love baby other animals, just not baby babies.  I *really* don't want to hold your baby.  I *will* hold your baby if you need to go to the bathroom, and I'll chip in a do a feeding or a diaper changing.  I don't mind helping.  But I still don't like your baby (it's nothing personal against your baby!!) and I don't want to hold it just for the sake of holding it.  All that said, even I have enough experiences with first time moms versus moms of more than one, and the difference is clear.  To me, there is no question that the trio was right, Ashley was a new mom, while Wendy has a new baby and they aren't really the same.  But if I had been there, as a mother of none, I'd have kept out of it, and as a mother of one, Ashley should have let the mother of more than one in the room make the argument that it's different.  It just wasn't the best look for her.

Then we cut to Wendy's TH where she says her daughter was premature and in the NICU.  Considering that was three months ago, I'm sure that is still very painful and raw, but she only enters it as exculpatory evidence after the fact, and to be honest, as a non-parent, I don't know how to factor that in, so I'm going to dismiss it.  Not fair of me, but it wasn't introduced into the actual argument and I don't know how to weigh it, so I'm just going to throw it out.  Not as an awful and scary experience that we should be sympathetic to, but as evidence in the argument between Wendy and Ashley.

After the talking head, we come back and Karen is apparently trying to diffuse the situation.  She says something to Ashley about the nursery (and Wendy is staring DAGGERS at Ashley), and then politely says to Wendy, does seeing Dean make you miss your baby?  Obviously, Karen is actually trying to smooth things over and acknowledge Wendy's feelings.  Wendy basically starts going on again about it being a Girls' Weekend, with the clear implication Ashley shouldn't have brought her baby.  Ashley looks over at Robyn (holding Dean, and keep in mind Robyn was the first person to ask why Michael didn't keep Dean), and says, "My husband has to work!"

Now, here is where we have to stop and acknowledge we, the viewers, have extra information Wendy does not.  We have seen Michael's INSANE pressure on Ashley to feel like a bad mother if she abandons her child (for three days - which I'm betting is Day One getting there in the late afternoon [it was about 430 when this argument happened and Ashley had just arrived], all day Day Two, and leave Day Three morning.  So i bet three days worked out to less than 48 hours).  Keep in mind, Ashley's own mother abandoned her, so Michael is playing on some real fear Ashley would obviously have.  Ashley knows she can't come out and say what she has been taught, that only a bad mother would leave a baby alone that long.  But her response still alludes to the SOURCE of where those fears are being stoked: Michael.  So she says the only part of his argument she can that doesn't put down Wendy as a mother - my husband has to work.  Which, by proxy, is an "attack" on Wendy's husband.  So off they go again about whose husband is busier/more important.

And here I'm going to digress even further and ding Wendy again.  She keeps saying her husband is an attorney.  I think that's considered the "fancier" term, but I have no problem with at all.  However!  Try saying out loud MY HUS-BAND IS AN AT-TOURNEY!  Now try saying out loud MY HUS-BAND IS A LAW-YER.  The second comes with way better verbal slaps.  They are both being idiots, this has nothing to do with husband (except Wendy's is likely supportive of her and does watch his kids, while Michael is a fucked up gas lighter who just wants them out of his path).  But LAW-YER just sounds better in this context.  I'm deducting points for style.

Then, Wendy starts talking about how much effort she put into being able to come without her baby, and says because she put so much effort in, she knows it can be done, and she has no sympathy for Ashley saying she's a new mom.  Ashley very correctly points out she didn't ask for Wendy's sympathy, and tells Wendy to mind her business, Wendy says it IS her business, and I'm going to deduct more points here.  Ashley and Ashley's baby are the literal definition of not her business.  She is completely acting like Ashley has done something wrong by bringing her baby, and that's NOT HER BUSINESS.

Wendy is also saying she did all of this so she could be present with the other ladies.  She seems to be thinking that she and Ashley are coming into this as employees of equal value and they simply aren't.  Ashley is gold plated cast member.  If she needs extra accommodations with filming, she is likely going to get it.  She's been with the "company" longer, she's paid more dues, she's brought the drama.  If Ashley told production, "Dean comes or I don't" they are more like to work with her because she is an employee who gets her job done.  If Wendy said the same thing to production, they might shrug and be like, "OK, enjoy your weekend at home", or "Lady, you need to look at your contract."  But the truth is long time employees sometimes get accommodations new hires don't.  I don't know that any of this happened, it just wouldn't surprise or bother me.  

In addition to that aspect, Wendy also seems to forget Ashley has real friendships with some of these women.  Wendy just met them about 10 minutes ago.  Ashley has been to Monique's lake house before, right?  So, of course Ashley is going to feel more comfortable asking Monique if she could bring Dean.  They are friends, even if it's just co-worker friends.  Wendy and Monique at this point are ONLY co-workers, and naturally she is going to be less likely to ask her co-worker if she can bring her baby on a work retreat where her literal job is to get to know her co-workers.  Ashley has already put in her time doing that, so it's not as big of a deal if Ashley ducks out some.  While none of this, either with production or friends, is surprising to me, I think it was VERY surprising to Wendy.  I think she's been at the head of the line for a very long time, and having to get in line behind someone like Ashley (in her eyes, not mine) is upsetting her world view.  She somehow doesn't understand that Ashley has way more to bring to a reality show and has already proven it, and four degrees means absolutely nothing in this setting.  In the bizarro Ho'wives world, having a messy life is worth more than having your shit together.

And regardless of which combination of the above scenarios led to this, Wendy was wrong as soon as she said, "Ashley, c'mon."  Ashley literally had done nothing wrong.  She didn't just show up with a surprise baby!  Wendy should have been upset with herself, Monique, and/or production.  But instead, she tried to make Ashley feel WRONG for bringing her baby, that she was WRONG for not doing things exactly as Wendy did.  Wendy's argument is with the wrong person, and that's why she looks so bad.  Yes, Ashley absolutely lobbed her own barbs back, but this is a definite case of don't start none, won't be none.

So, my thoughts are Wendy started it without provocation, Ashley continued it and escalated it with provocation, and ultimately Michael is  at fault for the whole damn thing. 

Final ruling: Michael, guilty.

I could NOT love this more!  This is the content I'm here for.  Zapruder the shit out of a scene and I'm nodding my head the whole time. 🙂

 

Final Ruling:  Brilliant summary.

[FozzyBear]

I must run with some cold hearted bitches. I'm not married with kids myself but most of my friends and family are and it was not until I became familiar with Bravo-lebrities that I realized there are women who will have a nerves breakdown if they have to go one weekend without constant contact with their significant others and kids. I mean not that they don't check in with the kids and the hubby, but I have never had to sit through a tearful dinner about how hard it is to go to a lake house for the weekend. 

[qtpye]

46 minutes ago, FozzyBear said:

I must run with some cold hearted bitches. I'm not married with kids myself but most of my friends and family are and it was not until I became familiar with Bravo-lebrities that I realized there are women who will have a nerves breakdown if they have to go one weekend without constant contact with their significant others and kids. I mean not that they don't check in with the kids and the hubby, but I have never had to sit through a tearful dinner about how hard it is to go to a lake house for the weekend. 

I think it has more to do with going away with a bunch of assholes, who hate you but have to pretend to like you, in order to get their sizable Bravo paycheck.

Hell, it was at Monique's house and we all know how much the Green Eyed Bandits love her!

[goofygirl]

All I can say is that if Ashley's had to take care of baby Dean all by herself, WHY in the bloody hell would she get pregnant AGAIN?? And so soon after having Baby Dean?

I'm confused.

[RealReality]

On 8/31/2020 at 10:26 PM, drivethroo said:

 

But cast members are being harassed into treating Ashley as a saint & delicate flower when Ashley has escalated every single quarrel she's been in and that's a problem.

 

The problem is Ashley is equally messy (if not more) as the rest of the cast but when it's time for her to be held accountable, everyone has to treat her delicately while other cast members are ganged up on for a forced apology.  It's been going on since Season 1, it's a pattern, it's tiresome and it's a problem.

Yes, thank you!  Its maddening.  

On 9/1/2020 at 6:05 AM, Sweet-tea said:

 

 

Wendy was obnoxious and rude. It probably would’ve been better for Ashley not bring the baby, but Michael was making things difficult. I felt sorry for her because her was laying on the guilt trip, probably because he wanted to go out carousing while she was gone.

It’s obvious Ashley is struggling. Wendy lacks compassion. However, Ashley didn’t react well and only escalated the situation. 

 

Where was Ashley's compassion for Katie last season?  Oh, thats right, it was non-existent and she only stopped being aggressive and confrontational with a weakened Katie after Gizelle told Ashley explicitly to stop it.  Ashley knows that she needs Gizelle and Robyn to protect her. 

Ashley is a piece of shit and if she can't take that same energy she puts out, she should be off the show.  

ETA - I still think Katie won that fight, when she doubled down and told Ashley she was stupid I laughed.  Ashley was really hoping she had beaten her into submission.  When Katie admitted that she wasn't strong, she ended up looking like a relatable and sympathetic human being and Ashley looked like a bully and an asshole.

I think Ashley knew how bad she looked and its the only reason she apologized the following day.  And LOL, I don't think Katie ever said sorry.

On 9/2/2020 at 10:39 AM, Neurochick said:

That's my problem with Candiace.  She doesn't understand how privileged she really is.  

All the women should be treated equally, whether they are privileged or not.  If Ashley cannot handle things because of her upbringing, she should stop meddling in people's affairs and being messy or just be off the show.  

Second, I don't necessarily buy that Candace is so much more privileged, because I don't think financial privilege is the end all, be all.  My parents don't pay my bills, but they have been helpful in the past and they paid for my undergraduate education.  That money always comes with strings attached.  

There were times when I was EXTREMELY poor and could have easily gotten financial help from my parents, but I was happier to live in a run down apartment than to have my parents holding things over my head, explicitly or implicitly.  

Edited September 25, 2020 by RealReality

[ladle]

I feel like I should be able to relate to Wendy. We’re both professors, and my daughter was also born 2 months early so I can empathize with the pain and fear of being in the NICU. 
 

But, gosh...she is just SO UNLIKEABLE. 

PS Is this the point at which I’m supposed to mention my nationality and how many degrees I have?

[RealReality]

2 hours ago, ladle said:

 

PS Is this the point at which I’m supposed to mention my nationality and how many degrees I have?

No need for nationality, just number of degrees and how you demand people address you in public.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't think that "doctor of public affairs" is really what her mother was pushing for her.  With every african I've ever met* its medical doctor or lawyer or you're a disappointment.  I think Wendy is pushing for a loophole that isn't there, though I think "professor" is probably pretty impressive for her mom.

*-relatively small sample size

[qtpye]

8 hours ago, RealReality said:

No need for nationality, just number of degrees and how you demand people address you in public.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't think that "doctor of public affairs" is really what her mother was pushing for her.  With every african I've ever met* its medical doctor or lawyer or you're a disappointment.  I think Wendy is pushing for a loophole that isn't there, though I think "professor" is probably pretty impressive for her mom.

*-relatively small sample size

Yes, overachieving immigrant groups are very narrow in what they consider "success".

I went to a state university and one of my aunties actually came in to rub it in my mom's face that her daughter was going to a private university. You should have seen her face when I pulled out the rankings to show her that my state university was ranked much higher than the one her daughter was attending. I also got a scholarship, so my parents did not have to worry about my tuition.

It is all stupid petty one upmanship combined with "my family is better than your family" bullshit.

 

[Baltimore Betty]

On 9/24/2020 at 11:05 PM, goofygirl said:

All I can say is that if Ashley's had to take care of baby Dean all by herself, WHY in the bloody hell would she get pregnant AGAIN?? And so soon after having Baby Dean?

I'm confused.

I have a theory, if she had fertility issues getting pregnant with Dean, (not talked about on the show), sometimes the doctors want you to get pregnant again because the uterus/womb/eggs are primed and waiting longer between pregnancies may make it harder to get pregnant.

[goofygirl]

And ladle, the short answer is: YES

[RedHawk]

On 8/31/2020 at 1:17 PM, Yogisbooboo64 said:

LMAO at 'Bark Bark'.

Karen was definitely the MVP this eppy...from her checking Dr. Ooomfoofoo regarding her comments about Karen and Ray's intimate business to putting Gizzard's Reverend Love Man's business at the dinner table, she had me howling and snapping my fingers at the screen!

I took offense on Karen’s behalf over Wendy’s ignorant, ageist comments about Karen and Ray’s sex life. I don’t care how much education she has, that remark set my first impression of Wendy as low-class. I think she’s choosing to go the wrong way with her character on this show.

I was also annoyed way back when Ashley was first introduced and Gizelle said, “So he’s poppin’ the Viagra” because Michael was in his 50s. I’m the same age as Karen and lemme tell y’all, plenty of men in their 50s, 60s, and older don’t need Viagra! It’s ageist to assume they do, or that women over 55 have no sex drive or need to take hormones. 

We don’t know Karen and Ray’s intimate life. Maybe he has lost the urge or there are just several other issues in the relationship. Clearly their dynamic has changed over the years. I actually appreciate that part of Karen’s story because it shows the reality of these marriages where the age difference is ~20 years after 20 years has passed.