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S05.E08: Spoiler Alert

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I finally finished watching the final two S5a episodes tonight. Late to this this party, so many of my thoughts have already been discussed here. 
I loved the "Angel on my shoulder; Devil on my shoulder" scene with Amenadiel. Found it interesting that Lucifer was on his right shoulder while Michael was on his left. While it's not universally true, in most other incarnations of this, the angel sits on the person's right shoulder, while the devil sits on their left. (I'm left-handed, so this symbolism has often ticked me off. 😒) The opposite happens here.

Then, when the three brothers unfurl their wings, Lucifer's are white, while Michael's have become full black, after having been gray earlier in the episode at the cave. (Amenadiel's remain gray. Guess he still has work to do. 😉)  

I haven't yet read the spoiler/speculation thread; heading there next. I wanted to finish watching the season before venturing in there, but I'm thinking that
 

Spoiler

The series' endgame may very well be Michael as hell's warden with Lucifer being able to return to the Silver City. 

 

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11 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Not only is it kind of weird, considering there are a couple of references to Nephilim in the Bible, and even more in some semi canonical (depending on who you ask) texts, its really kind of weird that, with all of the angels apparently hanging around Earth or just popping by since the dawn of time, that this has never happened before.

They've referred to the Nephilim in the show as well and they definitely exist, so either they don't remember doing this or Charlie is not a Nephilim in the Lucifer-verse. 

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16 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Not only is it kind of weird, considering there are a couple of references to Nephilim in the Bible, and even more in some semi canonical (depending on who you ask) texts, its really kind of weird that, with all of the angels apparently hanging around Earth or just popping by since the dawn of time, that this has never happened before. No angel before this has ever...opened wings before? I guess Lucifer is really committed to safe sex and birth control methods, considering the countless people he has slept with over the centuries. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Charlie wasn't the only one after all, and they find a few more in hiding. 

Lucifer hates kids so he only goes raw with other dudes otherwise he's a strap up kind of devil. 

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On 9/1/2020 at 1:08 AM, KAOS Agent said:

They've referred to the Nephilim in the show as well and they definitely exist, so either they don't remember doing this or Charlie is not a Nephilim in the Lucifer-verse. 

I'm guessing they don't remember.  There were multiple references this season to Amenadiel having a child with a mortal being something unheard of and thought impossible, mostly in reference to Maze hoping for a soul. If the show remembered this, it would be odd to make Angel/Mortal procreation seem like a near miracle making other impossible things seem possible.  

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Even later to the party, but I just finished eppy 8 and WOO HOO WHAT FUN!

There were a couple of minor missteps in the first couple of episodes but overall I loved this (half) season! I'm probably going to jump all over the place so strap in:

I'm way in the minority on this, but I LOVED episode 4, everything about it - the B&W film noir cinematography, the role and gender switches, the backstory, the frame story with Trixie and Maze - it was actually one of my favorites. And I'm convinced that Lilith's immortality is a maguffin that will come back in a big way at some point.

As to eppy 8, it was so obvious that Pete was the bad guy that when Ella was first prowling around his empty house, I was yelling Get on with it! at the TV. A new character that nice just had to be up to no good. 

Good thing Dad showed up or that way-too-evenly matched fight could have gone on literally forever. As others have said, enjoyed seeing all the different pairings this season. Liked Amenadiel calling his brother Detective Morningstar. Their relationship has really come a long way, though seeing Amenadiel's snobbish attitude about 'mere mortals' return in relation to his own son was kind of sad. I thought he'd gotten beyond that.

Poor Maze. It's been obvious for some time that she has a soul, it's sad she can't see it. No soulless demon could feel as deeply as she does, could fight and sacrifice for her friends the way she has, could yearn the way she does. Seems like Michael doesn't play off other's fears so much as their insecurities.

Poor Dan. He really got thrown into the deep end of the celestial pool, didn't he? But he was able to put his quite-understandable freakout on hold when he found out Chloe was in trouble. As someone said earlier, he's got a lot of "revelations" still to come -- about Charlotte, about his one-time partner Maze, about the whole set-up really. 

I've rambled on for what seems like pages and I feel like I've forgotten half of what I wanted to say. So i'll just recap thusly: I Loved this season and can't wait for part 2!

ETA: The big deal over Lucy saying "I love you" seemed a bit overwrought since he already told Chloe last season that Eve was never his first love, that "it was always you, Detective." Pretty damn clear to me.

Edited by Gummo · Reason: I can't shut up
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Yeah, it really annoys me on TV when characters treat the arbitrary moment of saying "I love you" as some big epic milestone, while also considering other statements indicating one loves another as though they're meaningless if the construction were not literally "I love you" in that exact sequence of words and no others.

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6 hours ago, theatremouse said:

Yeah, it really annoys me on TV when characters treat the arbitrary moment of saying "I love you" as some big epic milestone, while also considering other statements indicating one loves another as though they're meaningless if the construction were not literally "I love you" in that exact sequence of words and no others.

Right?  He literally says Eve wasn't his love and it was always Chloe.  But because he didn't string the words together in the precise order of "I love you" it doesn't count and Chloe thinks he hasn't said and doesn't feel that he loves her. .. like it's an incantation rather than an expression of feeling.   [It's not leviOsa; it's leviosA]

Edited by RachelKM
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1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

Right?  He literally says Eve wasn't his love and it was always Chloe.  But because he didn't string the words together in the precise order of "I love you" it doesn't count and Chloe thinks he hasn't said and doesn't feel that he loves her.

I agree and think that the “I love you” issue was an odd plot beat for the writers to focus on given Lucifer’s exact words in the S4 finale.  Like, if I were Chloe, I wouldn’t have questioned that as a declaration of love.

I think they could have made it a separate issue that Chloe wants to hear “I love you” in that exact order now that they are a dating couple because Lucifer really (in some ways unintentionally) messed with her head and her feelings in S2-S3 (getting closer; pulling back; refusing to let her go), and she may still not know the full extent of everything that he has done for her.  (Unclear exactly how much she knows because we haven’t seen her filled in, but she does apparently know some things:  like how he offhandedly said in 5x06 that he went to Hell and back twice for her and she didn’t question the “twice,” and she apparently knows about his real mom, even though at the time she thought that was just his stepmother.)  It’s not unfair for someone in a relationship to voice what they need to feel happy and secure and loved, and I can’t blame Chloe for asking Lucifer to be explicit about where he stands, after Michael drew out her great fear.

I couldn’t figure out why Lucifer was having trouble saying “I love you” immediately when she asked for it, if he was able to say so readily and quickly “I do. Of course I do” to the question in the immediately preceding second.  Like, then we go back to the magic of those 3 particular words meaning something different than “Do you love me?  / I do”, which doesn’t really track for me about Lucifer drawing that distinction.  I saw some post that someone wrote say that Lucifer’s mom repeatedly talked about how much she loved him, all the while hurting and using him in S2, so it made sense that he is afraid of the words themselves being weaponized and that he only trusts actions, not words, on this subject (which he needs to work through).  That could work for me.

I did like all the non-direct ways that Lucifer demonstrates his love for Chloe in this episode.  When they are reunited at the zoo, he looks like he is going to cry with relief, and his little “Oh, you can whack me anytime” as they were hugging was such a cute little domestic thing for him to have said. 

I also like how he was so tender in his apology in the evidence room, profusely apologizing for among other things, Michael, and Chloe is just like “Everyone has a weird family.”  Lol.

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14 hours ago, Gummo said:

The big deal over Lucy saying "I love you" seemed a bit overwrought since he already told Chloe last season that Eve was never his first love, that "it was always you, Detective."

 

3 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I think they could have made it a separate issue that Chloe wants to hear “I love you” in that exact order now that they are a dating couple because Lucifer really (in some ways unintentionally) messed with her head and her feelings in S2-S3 (getting closer; pulling back; refusing to let her go), and she may still not know the full extent of everything that he has done for her.

That was my take on it. They're in an actual relationship, and Chloe voiced concerns about part of that to Linda in another episode. Chloe also strikes me as someone who likes to Talk About Our Relationship, which I have to give her some slack because of who she is with. Additionally, iirc this was on the heels of Dan shooting Lucifer and nothing happening, so she is understandably concerned that his feelings may have changed. 

She does strike me as someone who Needs To Hear It just so though. 

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4 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

That was my take on it. They're in an actual relationship, and Chloe voiced concerns about part of that to Linda in another episode. Chloe also strikes me as someone who likes to Talk About Our Relationship, which I have to give her some slack because of who she is with. Additionally, iirc this was on the heels of Dan shooting Lucifer and nothing happening, so she is understandably concerned that his feelings may have changed. 

I wish this is what they had presented.  I might still have felt it was odd, but less dumb. 

Chloe was talking about the lack of ILY with Ellie before Lucifer and Chloe actually got together, even referencing the specific Eve conversation.  So, the show presented it as never having said the words being the issue, not confirmation of their relationship. 

I agree that the shooting and sudden invulnerability of Lucifer despite her presence likely threw her off.  I just wish it hadn't been reduced to Lucifer having said specific words as opposed to her understanding his prior declaration, but being concerned he was pulling back now. 

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14 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

 

I agree and think that the “I love you” issue was an odd plot beat for the writers to focus on given Lucifer’s exact words in the S4 finale.  Like, if I were Chloe, I wouldn’t have questioned that as a declaration of love.

I think they could have made it a separate issue that Chloe wants to hear “I love you” in that exact order now that they are a dating couple because Lucifer really (in some ways unintentionally) messed with her head and her feelings in S2-S3 (getting closer; pulling back; refusing to let her go), and she may still not know the full extent of everything that he has done for her.  (Unclear exactly how much she knows because we haven’t seen her filled in, but she does apparently know some things:  like how he offhandedly said in 5x06 that he went to Hell and back twice for her and she didn’t question the “twice,” and she apparently knows about his real mom, even though at the time she thought that was just his stepmother.)  It’s not unfair for someone in a relationship to voice what they need to feel happy and secure and loved, and I can’t blame Chloe for asking Lucifer to be explicit about where he stands, after Michael drew out her great fear.

I couldn’t figure out why Lucifer was having trouble saying “I love you” immediately when she asked for it, if he was able to say so readily and quickly “I do. Of course I do” to the question in the immediately preceding second.  Like, then we go back to the magic of those 3 particular words meaning something different than “Do you love me?  / I do”, which doesn’t really track for me about Lucifer drawing that distinction.  I saw some post that someone wrote say that Lucifer’s mom repeatedly talked about how much she loved him, all the while hurting and using him in S2, so it made sense that he is afraid of the words themselves being weaponized and that he only trusts actions, not words, on this subject (which he needs to work through).  That could work for me.

I did like all the non-direct ways that Lucifer demonstrates his love for Chloe in this episode.  When they are reunited at the zoo, he looks like he is going to cry with relief, and his little “Oh, you can whack me anytime” as they were hugging was such a cute little domestic thing for him to have said. 

I also like how he was so tender in his apology in the evidence room, profusely apologizing for among other things, Michael, and Chloe is just like “Everyone has a weird family.”  Lol.

Yes to all of this! 

First I completely agree that Lucifer's words at the end of the S4 finale were most definitely a declaration of love.  "My first love was never Eve. It was you Chloe. It always has been." I'm sorry, but you can't misinterpret that! 😅  However, Michael has evidently done his job well, especially about what Lucifer's invulnerability around her means and Chloe now needs to hear, "I love you." So, why?

I'd like to zero in on the "I've been to hell and back for you. Twice, actually" line.

We, the audience, know SO much more than Chloe does about the level of Lucifer's love for her. IMO, Chloe only knows that Lucifer went back to hell at the end of S4 to quell the demons. We know the "twice" he's talking about but she doesn't.

 Journey to hell #1, S1 finale. "DAD!...I need a favor. I'll be the son you always wanted me to be.  I'll do as you ask, go where you want me to. In exchange... all I ask... is that you protect Chloe." We in the audience hear this. Chloe doesn't and I'd contend that this is Lucifer's first declaration of love for her. I mean, he'll do everything he's been fighting against doing and he'd even give his life...for Chloe. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as love! So, he goes to hell the first time but Chloe has no idea of this, nor of his love. But this is the audience's first building block in the "Lucifer loves Chloe" story.

Journey to hell #2, in S2's "A Good Day to Die," Lucifer CHOOSES to die and go down to hell to get the antidote that will save Chloe's life. If that's not love, I don't know what you would call it. Again, we know this but Chloe doesn't. She knows that Lucifer was instrumental in getting the antidote that saves her life, but as far as we know, she does not know that he "went to hell and back" for her.

Other scenes the audience sees but not Chloe:
His ice cream eating, wine drinking scene with Candy "Seems like you genuinely care about her." "Yes. I do. A lot."
The scene with Dr. Linda in his apartment, with Lucifer tortured (no pun intended) by Chloe's relationship with Cain: "So I ask you, the Devil; what do you truly desire?" "I want her to choose me."
My goodness, Lucifer KILLS HIS BROTHER to save Chloe!
There are others, but you get the point.

All this is to say that it's somewhat understandable that Chloe needs the actual "I love you" reassurance of Lucifer's love for her, but based on our knowledge, we, the audience, most certainly, do not.

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On 8/27/2020 at 11:55 PM, Loandbehold said:

I'm thinking if baby Charlie is a mundane, Amenadude might be able to change it either through celestial or possibly in conjunction with pharmacological means. After all, he is running LUX and if anyplace could have celestial drugs, it would be LUX. 

Why does immortality have to be the goal? I get why Amenadiel doesn't want to lose him, but it might not be in Charlie's best interests to live forever.  Lilith was immortal and wanted it to end because death gives meaning to life.  If Charlie becomes immortal, and then grows up and falls in love with a human/has mortal children, then he'll experience what Amenadiel fears.  (I feel like I'm recapping The Old Guard and almost any vampire story.)

Also, every time Michael showed up with one of the other characters, like when he stopped by the hospital, he seems to have inside knowledge, like the fact that Charlie had been ill.  How did he know that?  Did he infect Charlie?  How would he have done that? Not when Linda or Amenadiel were with him (but Charlie must have a babysitter when Linda is working, because Amenadiel is not always at her place during the day.)

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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8 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Why does immortality have to be the goal? I get why Amenadiel doesn't want to lose him, but it might not be in Charlie's best interests to live forever.  Lilith was immortal and wanted it to end because death gives meaning to life.  If Charlie becomes immortal, and then grows up and falls in love with a human/has mortal children, then he'll experience what Amenadiel fears.  (I feel like I'm recapping The Old Guard and almost any vampire story.)

Like others have posted, I still suspect that Charlie may not be a mere mortal for the rest of his life.  But assuming that he is, in addition to what you mention about mortality possibly not being a bad thing from future Charlie’s POV, if a mortal dies in this world, and they’re a good person, they can go to the Silver City and live a presumably infinite existence thereafter.  And as long as Amenadiel has his wings, he seems to be able to come and go from the Silver City at will, so he could see Charlie forever.  Therefore, death doesn’t seem to be *that* bad an outcome in this world, although there is still real grief when a life is cut short, I guess for everything you miss out on in an earthly existence.  Still, the stakes don’t seem as high as for Amenadiel as they are for, say, Lucifer vis-a-vis Chloe (at least for as long as Lucifer is barred from heaven).  Amenadiel’s crisis over Charlie’s mortality seemed like a bit of a retread of S4 (when he contemplated taking Charlie to the Silver City to keep him safe), but I guess that is a fear you don’t get over easily.

 

8 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Also, every time Michael showed up with one of the other characters, like when he stopped by the hospital, he seems to have inside knowledge, like the fact that Charlie had been ill.  How did he know that?  Did he infect Charlie?  How would he have done that?

When Maze questioned Michael in episode 2 about how Michael was going to take on Lucifer’s life (and she was skeptical that he knew enough about Earth to fit in), he said he paid attention and noticed things, so it felt like a hand wave over exactly how he gets his inside knowledge (he’s like an angelic voyeur).  Lucifer did accuse Michael of sickening Charlie in this episode and then seemed very sure he did it.  But yeah, not sure when he had the time to do it.  He was lurking outside Linda’s house on the night that Dan found out.  He could have crept in with some cold virus, I guess?

Edited by Peace 47

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I was really holding out hope, despite his health issues, Timothy Ormundson was going to turn out to be God after all. However, I’m thrilled with Dennis Haysbert as God. Awesome ending. 

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On 8/25/2020 at 8:02 PM, UnoAgain said:

I'm not sold that Charlie is a plain mortal... Remiel knew a new celestial was born.. Plus where's the fun in giving a baby an Archangel parent and then making him mundane... So I figure with with grandpa showing up... Charlie will be ok

 

On 8/26/2020 at 5:06 AM, Peace 47 said:

I agree that there’s probably more to Charlie.  The other angels have self-actualized their appearance, wings and powers, so maybe the baby just doesn’t have the mental development yet to manifest angelic characteristics.  Like he has to grow into what he thinks he is over time.

[snip]

 

On 9/9/2020 at 4:55 AM, Peace 47 said:

Like others have posted, I still suspect that Charlie may not be a mere mortal for the rest of his life.  But assuming that he is, in addition to what you mention about mortality possibly not being a bad thing from future Charlie’s POV, if a mortal dies in this world, and they’re a good person, they can go to the Silver City and live a presumably infinite existence thereafter.  And as long as Amenadiel has his wings, he seems to be able to come and go from the Silver City at will, so he could see Charlie forever.  Therefore, death doesn’t seem to be *that* bad an outcome in this world, although there is still real grief when a life is cut short, I guess for everything you miss out on in an earthly existence.  Still, the stakes don’t seem as high as for Amenadiel as they are for, say, Lucifer vis-a-vis Chloe (at least for as long as Lucifer is barred from heaven).  Amenadiel’s crisis over Charlie’s mortality seemed like a bit of a retread of S4 (when he contemplated taking Charlie to the Silver City to keep him safe), but I guess that is a fear you don’t get over easily.

[snip]

I think we, the audience just expected Charlie to have some supernatural abilities because his father is an Angel. I agree with those who feel that Show will have Charlie exhibit some non-human ability(ies) one day, but I hope not. Making/keeping Charlie as just your run-of-the-mill human would defy our expectation and end up being a true surprise - again, because so many of us simply assume Charlie will be endowed with some supernatural qualities/abilities.

Also, what Peace47 said is spot on! Amenadiel and Charlie could potentially see each other in Heaven for eternity. So he's not really "missing out" much if Charlie remains a "Muggle". Same for Linda. If she too ends up in Heaven, she'd see her son for eternity.

So let's see if Show will go against the trope of 'Supernatural creature must always have Supernatural Offspring'.

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I am confused.  If Maze does not have a soul then why does she have all of those emotions? Maybe it is because I liken not having a soul to the vampires in Angel and Buffy. Angel became a sadistic pyschopath without his soul.

I am done with Maze. Amendial rightfully pointed out that Lucifer had no idea she was mad. I was not bothered by Lucifer's just a demon comment because he was clearly distracted. He imo showed that he truly just does not consider  Maze to be just a demon by not arbitrarily taking her back to hell with him at the end of last season. 

I wonder if the final smackdown he gave Maze opened her eyes as she stopped groaning in pain and her expression changed before they cut back to the brothers fight.  He clearly had been going easy on her in the past and his laying her down like that should have been an eye opener.

God being Dennis Haysbert in a Dad type sweater makes me predisposed to like him.  I wonder if he got wise to Michael's manipulations and start to make plans of his own.  It would explain why he sprung Amenadiel from hell and suddenly claimed it no longer needs a keeper. 

I am so looking forward to the other characters meeting God.  

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On 8/23/2020 at 11:42 AM, thuganomics85 said:

At least we know that one way to help get yourself to Heaven: switch to Allstate.  Because that insurance is God approved!

GOLD!

This has been my current show obsession, I spent the last couple of weeks binging from season 1 and ogling Tom Ellis, that man is beautiful! I usually can't hang with procedural shows, it gets so repetitive. Being close to LA though, its fun to try and figure out the locations that are actually out here. 

I am not at all a fan of the love story aspect of the show, Decker bugs me...she seems a bit dead-eyed and robotic most of the time, though I was glad that after 5 seasons of will they-won't they, they FINALLY got together and got it on.

I'm in it for all of the religion lore/celestial goodness.

It will be so interesting to see how the show evolves and more and more characters are brought into the inner circle and know the truth about Divinity. I'm ok with Dan finally getting proof and I thought he's reaction was appropriate for his character (which is another not favorite of mine). I really wish that Ella would know by now though, I completely get it that as the character that is the most religious and who least NEEDS to actually see it because she already has faith and all that, I think that because of that she DESERVES to know. Hopefully that will happen in the near future, I think her reaction will be really interesting to see. 

I LOVE Maze but I am so exhausted with her story, it seems like every time she takes a step forward she goes 2 steps back. At this point Im not sure why Lucifer puts up with her. 

I'm so happy to hear there are more episodes coming and a whole other season! I was spoiler free until this morning and thought I was watching the very last episode, I had to come in here for clarification and yay...good news on a Wednesday! 🙂

 

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I'm getting tired of the fights, and I'm really tired of Michael. 

Poor Ella, but I'm glad they didn't get any darker there. It was too "Se7en" as it was, I like this show lighter. 

I'm glad Dan was okay - or as okay as he's going to be, until he gets past what he's dealing with.

I thought maybe Lucifer regained his power, and was also invincible, because he no longer felt insecure around her. Mojo temporarily transferred when all of his walls were down for her, but now that they're together, he feels better (now that he has his mojo back, and there are no hot exes hanging around, trying to get her back). 

I don't like them pitting Maze against him, and I'm tired of the people around her, being so dismissive. First Chloe with, "he has to be desperate, if he's sleeping with YOU" and then Lucifer saying she's "only a demon." She was practically his partner for a long, long time, and the woman is usually loyal as can be. I don't like it when they need to make someone like her insecure, in order to give her a story line. She's Maze, and she deserves better. 

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On 8/26/2020 at 8:06 AM, Peace 47 said:

I agree that there’s probably more to Charlie.  The other angels have self-actualized their appearance, wings and powers, so maybe the baby just doesn’t have the mental development yet to manifest angelic characteristics.  Like he has to grow into what he thinks he is over time.

I also wanted to ETA that I agree with most of your post, @tennisgurl, and liked what you said about the Maze issue.  I just can’t help loving this show specifically for the Lucifer/ Chloe romance, though, so that’s probably where we part ways.  I’d probably give this first half of the season a B/ B-, absent all the great Lucifer/ Chloe interplay (it really was a shipper’s dream).  I’m so happy with the Deckerstar stuff it pushes the whole season into the “A” category for me, as I found them completely adorable. 

I'm not usually a shipper, but they are so adorable (and not Hallmark, over-the-top) that I love it. 

On 8/29/2020 at 12:18 AM, madmax said:

Finally finished this half season.

Really getting tired of Maze's behavior.  How many times can she go down that well?  How many times do the writers think we want to see it?  However, Lucifer was pretty dickish with the "just a demon" comment but also, as Linda has said many times, Lucifer is all about Lucifer plus he was worried about Chloe.  I do wonder, tho, could Maze be gaining a soul?  Since all the other stuff was supposed to be impossible (Lucifer falling in love, Amenadiel fathering a child with a mortal), why couldn't a demon gain a soul?  It would explain her recent "human" behavior.

I actually thought for a hot minute that Dan had kidnapped Chloe to keep her away from Lucifer, maybe to convince her dating the devil was wrong.

Ellis still amazes me how different he makes Lucifer & Michael.  And I think the accent got better.

I agree with the other posters who said it felt like God was just coming down to make the children stop squabbling.  I guess he skipped the announcement that he was going to turn the car around. 

 

I thought Dan had taken her, too, for the same reason. Then Michael had to be the one to show up. I'm glad that Dan wasn't that out of it, though. 

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On 8/31/2020 at 3:14 PM, tennisgurl said:

Not only is it kind of weird, considering there are a couple of references to Nephilim in the Bible, and even more in some semi canonical (depending on who you ask) texts, its really kind of weird that, with all of the angels apparently hanging around Earth or just popping by since the dawn of time, that this has never happened before. No angel before this has ever...opened wings before? I guess Lucifer is really committed to safe sex and birth control methods, considering the countless people he has slept with over the centuries. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Charlie wasn't the only one after all, and they find a few more in hiding. 

Of course, what exactly Nephilim do or what they are like is never really explained in most translations of the bible and its all over the place in other portrayals. Are they giants? Monsters? Immortals? Mostly normal people with some extra powers thrown in? Are there just a few of them or are they a whole species? They are usually some kind of warriors, but do they have powers, or are they just really really good at fighting and also have some extra capacity towards greatness the way the kids of gods did in classical mythology? Evil? Good? Varies between the person? Charlie could be basically anything because the mythology is so all over the place. 

In the Christopher Walken Prophecy triolgy Nephilim were considered pretty dangerous. In that universe there was a second war between the angels still raging in heaven. Angels were made to obey God, and human's were made with free will making them God's favorite, and some angel's wanted it back the way it was when God loved them best. The Nephilim were considered dangerous because they had the power of the angels with the free will of a human, not bound to "obey".

 

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Just saw the episode.

I was so sad that Ella’s love interest turned out to the serial killer. However, I figured it out right away because they left way, way too many clues.

Michael is an ass. He really manipulated Dan and played on Dan’s fears he wasn’t going to heaven.

On 9/12/2020 at 10:11 PM, miasth said:

I am confused.  If Maze does not have a soul then why does she have all of those emotions?

She obviously has a soul. I personally think she gained on earth and developing friendships with other humans. 
 

 

On 9/2/2020 at 8:48 PM, Gummo said:

Good thing Dad showed up or that way-too-evenly matched fight could have gone on literally forever. As others have said, enjoyed seeing all the different pairings this season

My husband said “First president and now God, he’s going places” 🤣

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When it comes to the vulnerability of lucifer around Chloe and in this episode he becomes invulnerable, what if Chloe manifested her desire for him to be strong. She has wanted to connect and be let in by lucifer, in the past, and felt insecure about the relationship. But when she sees him insecure she wants him to feel empowered. Therefore, it was not lucifer's change of heart that keeps the bullet from killing him, its Chloe's desire for him to be the angel he is with the strength and power he deserves. 

Yes, the manifestation can come from the angels self reflection but she has a super power of magnifying that self reflection. Amenadiel is the favorite son and people feel calmer in his presence but the one time he works along side Chloe, his super power is magnified. Yes it can be questioned of whether it is her presence that magnifies his abilities or the fact that since they are nuns they are already invested in the faith. but when she is close by the nuns focus on their faith reflected by Amenadiels much more than ever seen before. Amenadiel has been seen to calm Dan after he returns from taking charlotte to heaven. He has calmed maze and linda in the desire for them to have faith in what he is saying and what they want to believe. so the power has always been there. 

When we look at Cain and his relationship with her, it is the love he has for her that takes away his mark. She magnifies his desire to be mortal and by doing so breaks the curse. She wants him to be the man she can rely on and she believe him to be the good man he has never seen himself as. Someone worthy of love. 

I think this is how she will be the key in defeating Michael. She has a super power just as subtle as the others that we have to look for to see. She has the will to overcome any fear he could impose on her. She could be the manifestation of freedom of will. 

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Maze is really her own worst enemy. She has no one to blame but herself for most of her problems and is not very loyal. I'm really tired of her. I don't see how she can come back from this, this time. She basically betrayed everyone she cares about and cares about her by siding with Michael, whom she knows can't be trusted and loves causing chaos. She wants a soul so bad, but I don't think that she realizes once she gets a soul she'll likely end up in Hell to be tortured for all eternity once she dies.

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On 12/12/2020 at 12:00 AM, CanadaMags said:

When it comes to the vulnerability of lucifer around Chloe and in this episode he becomes invulnerable, what if Chloe manifested her desire for him to be strong. She has wanted to connect and be let in by lucifer, in the past, and felt insecure about the relationship. But when she sees him insecure she wants him to feel empowered. Therefore, it was not lucifer's change of heart that keeps the bullet from killing him, its Chloe's desire for him to be the angel he is with the strength and power he deserves.

Here's my theory on why Lucifer's invulnerability and mojo returned.

Mojo first. The glow wore off. Not because of anything within their relationship. I'd posit it could very well happen again. Chloe is the embodiment of his desire right now and when they're in that state of bliss and completion, love accepted, no more struggle, finally at peace, souls knitted together, it makes sense that his desire revealing power could be transferred to her with Chloe being able to reveal his every desire because he's open to her now AND he wants to be open to her. Must be the greatest relief of his long life. This was part of why Eve was able to get her hooks into Lucifer for a time as well. He hated himself, yet still wanted love and not to be hated. With Chloe's rejection, he was despairing it would ever be possible. It exacerbated his own view of himself too. And like a man in the stranded in the desert, Eve was a distorted mirage of what he needed (self-forgiveness and the belief that he deserves love).

The mojo returning is connected to the invulnerability returning as well.

I believe Lucifer was shaken to his very core, traumatized, at being literally paralyzed and unable to even warn Chloe let alone outright fight to protect her. He could only communicate with his eyes and thank goodness Chloe picked up on it. She could have died. Odds are he's playing that over and over again in his mind.

He can't have that happen again. He's the Devil, the one that does the scaring, not the one being scared. At some point he'll spill this information but how long we'll have to hold our breaths is anyone's guess.

I'm not 100% on which levers he's pulling psychologically. What did he shut down? Is he distancing himself from Chloe emotionally like she fears because of his own fear that his openness to her could get her killed while he's powerless? I think that's the best case scenario. It's far and beyond "my mojo was stolen" though that's a legitimate grievance. He didn't get his mojo back, no matter how annoyed he was, until Chloe's life was really and truly threatened and he couldn't do a damn thing about it.

Now we just have to see if this will present itself as a palpable rift between them. And with God coming, how will he deal with both issues?

Hehe, one week left. I only discovered this show last week and binged the entire thing. I've enjoyed it so much. It crept up on me with all the things I love about Highlander, Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles, the Ron Perlman Beauty and the Beast series, Forever Knight, Phantom of the Opera.

Would never have known from the procedural cop side of it at first.

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Second theory just dawned on me as I watch this episode again.

Perhaps the poles have shifted for Lucifer a little bit.

His desire revealing power is displaced when he is near the embodiment of his desire Chloe. When he's far from her, the mojo's back.

Now what if his invulnerability swaps up the same way when he's close to Chloe (invulnerable) and far from Chloe (vulnerable).

Can't wait to find out!

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