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S02.E09: 743

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As the Fives plot against each other, one of the siblings makes a big sacrifice to help Vanya, and Lila learns the truth about her parents.

  Dropping on Netflix, Friday, July 31, 2020.

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Bye, Ben. I’m going to miss you but not as much Klaus.

Herb is growing on me, but there’s a lot to fit into the last episode. Are we done with the Swede? 

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I just started watching this episode and it occurs to me that Luther has hardly done anything useful this season at all. For the supposed number one, he seems like a lot of dead weight right now.

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Ben!  Sniff.

Oh, whatever is going on in that barn can’t be good.

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On 8/2/2020 at 12:25 AM, h8omb said:

I just started watching this episode and it occurs to me that Luther has hardly done anything useful this season at all. For the supposed number one, he seems like a lot of dead weight right now.

Luther made a point early on in the season that the number thing was always just something Dad did to control them.   Dad told them they were heroes.  Dad gave them numbers.   Dad put Luther in charge.   Maybe dad lied.   Diego said something about Luther that hit home for me.  “For such a big guy he was hella sensitive”   
 

The Five fight scene while Luther got slo mo kicked in the junk was hilarious 

 

The confrontation between Carl and Sissy actually felt very true to me and fair to Carl who through most of the season has been portrayed as a deeply flawed but good man who has done right by Sissy and Harlan and doesn’t deserve to be cheated on by her.   (I have made the same point on “Grace & Frankie” - ironically also a Netflix show; you can acknowledge how hard it is to come out especially for people stuck in a marriage they might have gone into with the best of intentions and still acknowledge the hurt and destruction they cause to their partner who might actually love them.). This episode did it quick but still with an emotional understanding that I believed.  

Edited by Chaos Theory
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Ben 😪

So sweet for him to say the things he did to Vanya. He was the right one for the job. 

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Dear Ben was a good brother.

Earlier, when Diego sarcastically called Reginald's cadre lizard people, I wasn't expecting Reginald to actually be wearing a person suit.

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Ben came through in a big way!  I am hoping when they reset the timeline (I am sure they will) and there is a season 3 (I hope there is!) that Ben is corporeal

20 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

The confrontation between Carl and Sissy actually felt very true to me and fair to Carl who through most of the season has been portrayed as a deeply flawed but good man who has done right by Sissy and Harlan and doesn’t deserve to be cheated on by her.

Yeah, this is where I am at with Carl even as I feel that the show is trying to manipulate me to feel differently about him. I can't fault the guy for freaking out about Vanya's effect on Harlan when Harlan was in his weird fugue state.  And honestly, I think he got the raw end of the deal because he really didn't do anything wrong, not even anything out of real malice.  And he isn't even the one that introduced a gun into an already volatile situation.  That was all on Sissy.

Lila is basically a female Luther.  She is so completely blind to her parent's flaws and falls so easily into her manipulations and a need to please even though she is supposedly smart and manipulative herself.  She believes (rightly) about Five killing her parents, but doesn't think a minute to question how she herself was swooped up by the Handler   even on the night her parents were killed?  It doesn't even occur to her to wonder if the Handler was involved in some way?  I mean, has she met her 'mum'?

And honestly, as much as I like Kate Walsh and the enjoyment she has with the role, The Handler is absolutely the sort of villain I dislike.  She is just in it for the power and for some reason she just hates Five.  And that sort of villainy is hard to sustain for long without becoming boring.  What other motivation really does she have? This season she hasn't been shown to want to keep the  Commission on true to its own mission statement or aiming for some greater good despite her terrible methods.  She just seems manipulative and evil all for the sake of power. 

Poor Diego. 

Huh.  Did not expect that of Ol' Reg.

 

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Ben saved the world and ascended into heaven! And here I thought the one character who I didnt have to worry about getting killed off was the character who has been dead the whole time! I cant believe I didnt see Ben being the one who gets to Vanya right away, he was the perfect person to get through to her. I hate that he is apparently gone for real, and never even got to talk to his non Klaus siblings except for Diego for a minute, but I am glad that he is at least moving on. 

The two fives were hilarious, especially Luther getting stuck in the middle of them, literally a few times. "I AM THE DADDY!!" Our Five looked so shocked that Luther came up with somewhat decent plan when Luther smacked old Five with the but of the gun, but of course it still doesent really work out, as they still dont have the dang briefcase. 

I do feel rather bad for Lila, her situation is actually pretty similar to the Hargreeves, she has pretty much only had an abusive adopted parent who has used her for her whole life, so much so that Lila cant even see the complete obvious, that the Handler had her parents killed for some nefarious reason. So why did they get killed? Is it possible that Lila is another of the mysterious kids, whos parents shut the door in Reginald's face when he showed up to offer to buy her? 

Oh my God Diego, just get over the JFK thing! Just take this averted apocalypse as a win! The Handler was also seriously over selling how much control Five has over his siblings actions, he cant even get them to meet up at a designated time and place, let alone get them all to be a part of some big scheme. 

You know, Carl isnt exactly a great guy, husband, or father, but I dont think he deserved to be killed like that, or really seem him as a horrible villain in all this. I cant really blame him for wanting to get Harlan help, considering he has fallen into some kind of vegetative state, and yeah many mental wards at the time weren't great, but I dont see it as automatically a horrible solution, especially in a panic like that. Sissy was the one who got a gun involved. 

Also, so, holy shit Reginald is a lizard person!!! Who is this guy

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I was yelling at them to send Ben. Lol I was happy when they did. I'm glad he got to talk to Diego and Vanya before he went towards the light and he didn't die alone again. 

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8 hours ago, DearEvette said:

And honestly, as much as I like Kate Walsh and the enjoyment she has with the role, The Handler is absolutely the sort of villain I dislike.  She is just in it for the power and for some reason she just hates Five.  And that sort of villainy is hard to sustain for long without becoming boring.  What other motivation really does she have? This season she hasn't been shown to want to keep the  Commission on true to its own mission statement or aiming for some greater good despite her terrible methods.  She just seems manipulative and evil all for the sake of power. 

Yeah, it's exactly what I don't like either. Mustache twirling villains are just annoying & add nothing to the story. 

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On 8/1/2020 at 11:25 PM, h8omb said:

I just started watching this episode and it occurs to me that Luther has hardly done anything useful this season at all. For the supposed number one, he seems like a lot of dead weight right now.

Luther has figured he's not No. 1 hence his 'I don't give a shit' attitude. The numbers don't really mean anything except Reggie playing mind games.

Luther was my least favorite in season one, but I think he's getting some good character growth this season. He started the season in service to someone else just like before but I think he's coming along.

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If Reginald is a lizard person, why did the last episode of the first season show him as human (about the same age as he is in this episode) on a presumably alien planet before he apparently traveled to early 20th century Earth? His dying wife also looked human, though I did think there was something strange about her features. Obviously the writers did not want to give too much away then, but it seems like a big continuity problem.

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On 8/3/2020 at 9:57 PM, tennisgurl said:

I cant really blame him for wanting to get Harlan help, considering he has fallen into some kind of vegetative state, and yeah many mental wards at the time weren't great, but I dont see it as automatically a horrible solution, especially in a panic like that. Sissy was the one who got a gun involved. 

But I don't think Carl really cared about getting help for Harlan, at least from what we saw. He used the threat of taking Harlan away first as a way to force Vanya to leave and then as a way to punish Sissy when she refused to be the play the obedient loving wife role any more. 

Mental institutions in that period were mostly horrible places, where patients were drugged (to keep them easy to handle, not to help them), given shock treatments, and often abused. A nonverbal, presumably autistic child like Harlan would have been destroyed by that experience. Maybe Carl didn't know how bad these places were and thought that an institution could help, but that lack of knowledge would not excuse his using Harlan as an emotional weapon against Vanya and Sissy.  

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I have a more charitable view of Carl because as shown on screen his actions are not terrible or illogical.  Vanya fucked his wife under his roof.  He saw them making out.  Up until that point, Carl was shown as being nothing but nice and welcoming to Vanya.  After that, he was rightfully, imo, a betrayed and angry man.  If someone I had picked up off the street and allowed to live in my own home macked on my spouse and clearly affected my kid to the extent he looked like some kind of catatonic zombie, then yeah I'd feel some type of way.  We know what is going on,  but Carl doesn't, and from his perspective I think it shows restraint that he didn't act out way more than he did.

Sure from a modern standard point his attitude is old and outdated but at the time it was the social compact of many marriages.  I don't think anything we saw on screen would lead us to believe he mandated that Sissy act a role other than the faithful wife she should have been based on standard marriage vows. 

I also think another interpretation of his scene with Vanya is that he had no intention of removing Harlan.  If he did, imo, he would have made the threat in front of both Sissy and Vanya.  He didn't have to do that the way he did.  He was well within his rights to simply throw Vanya out of his house with nothing but the clothes on her back.  But he chose to get her to leave on her own and he knew what button to push to get her to do it the quickest and quietest way possible.  All he wanted was his family back without this interloper seducing his wife.

Regardless of what I think of Vanya as as a character (I like her because she is of course a protagonist) or Sissy (I feel sorry for her because she can't live the way she wants) and I am pre-disposed to want be sympathetic to their plight,but it is another sort of bias, imo, to disregard that in a real way Carl is also a victim here.

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Ben!! Such a sweetheart. 

Luther's "how about a thank you?!" - I was thinking the same thing. 

I'm glad that Vanya got to know that she's loved - to really know, this time. 

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2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I have a more charitable view of Carl because as shown on screen his actions are not terrible or illogical.  Vanya fucked his wife under his roof.  He saw them making out.  Up until that point, Carl was shown as being nothing but nice and welcoming to Vanya.  After that, he was rightfully, imo, a betrayed and angry man.  If someone I had picked up off the street and allowed to live in my own home macked on my spouse and clearly affected my kid to the extent he looked like some kind of catatonic zombie, then yeah I'd feel some type of way.  We know what is going on,  but Carl doesn't, and from his perspective I think it shows restraint that he didn't act out way more than he did.

Sure from a modern standard point his attitude is old and outdated but at the time it was the social compact of many marriages.  I don't think anything we saw on screen would lead us to believe he mandated that Sissy act a role other than the faithful wife she should have been based on standard marriage vows. 

I also think another interpretation of his scene with Vanya is that he had no intention of removing Harlan.  If he did, imo, he would have made the threat in front of both Sissy and Vanya.  He didn't have to do that the way he did.  He was well within his rights to simply throw Vanya out of his house with nothing but the clothes on her back.  But he chose to get her to leave on her own and he knew what button to push to get her to do it the quickest and quietest way possible.  All he wanted was his family back without this interloper seducing his wife.

Regardless of what I think of Vanya as as a character (I like her because she is of course a protagonist) or Sissy (I feel sorry for her because she can't live the way she wants) and I am pre-disposed to want be sympathetic to their plight,but it is another sort of bias, imo, to disregard that in a real way Carl is also a victim here.

I see your point and understand your more charitable view of Carl. I guess my view is colored by both modern standards and my personal experience in the early 1970s in a culture that was only just starting to question traditional roles. Of course, the cheating was unacceptable, and he was right to be angry. But the line between rightful anger and threatening to hurt your spouse or partner is easy to cross, and IMO Carl crossed it when he threatened to send Harlan to an institution as a way to control his wife. 

Edited by Paloma · Reason: I hate typos!
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4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I have a more charitable view of Carl because as shown on screen his actions are not terrible or illogical.  Vanya fucked his wife under his roof.  He saw them making out.  Up until that point, Carl was shown as being nothing but nice and welcoming to Vanya.  After that, he was rightfully, imo, a betrayed and angry man.  If someone I had picked up off the street and allowed to live in my own home macked on my spouse and clearly affected my kid to the extent he looked like some kind of catatonic zombie, then yeah I'd feel some type of way.  We know what is going on,  but Carl doesn't, and from his perspective I think it shows restraint that he didn't act out way more than he did.

Personally I didn’t get the sense that Carl particularly cared about Sissy or Harlan as much as he wanted to maintain control. He was a pretty classic bully. My opinion of him really tanked once he used is state trooper brother like his personal enforcer. 

Edited by Dani
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59 minutes ago, Dani said:

Personally I didn’t get the sense that Carl particularly cared about Sissy or Harlan as much as he wanted to maintain control. He was a pretty classic bully. My opinion of him really ranked once he used is state trooper brother like his personal enforcer. 

Exactly. He was a nice guy as long as things were going the way he wanted --obedient wife who didn't mind his absences from home (including going to a bar to get drunk), plus a live-in guest who helped his wife take care of a difficult child (so that he didn't have to). I have witnessed firsthand how quickly a nice guy can change to a bully when things are not going the way he wants, and that is what I saw in Carl. There are plenty of people who get cheated on by their spouses or partners (I was one), but an appropriate response to that is counseling and/or divorce--not threatening to put your child in a mental institution.

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I think we didn't get enough of Carl's POV to be able to judge what his threat and desire to institutionalize Harlan was really about. Sissy did seem like she was overwhelmed and struggling to take care of Harlan. Harlan also appeared to be getting worse post-Vanya's powers. Carl may have simply wanted to simplify his life by getting rid of both Harlan and Vanya, or Carl may genuinely have thought an institution was the best place for Harlan. I think you can make an argument either way based on what was shown on screen.

I think that Carl was more wronged than the wronger based on what we saw on screen. He lied to Sissy to go drinking, but she cheated on him in their shared bed with their houseguest and intended to kidnap their son to run away with Vanya. 

A slightly different Sissy/Carl thought is that I've realized the whole farm thing is weird. Carl's a salesman, so Sissy must be the reason they run a farm. But she seems unhappy about the farm and keeps talking about how her life isn't what she wants. I'm wondering if the writers really thought through the backstory of their marriage and how/why they're on a farm or if the writers just thought it would be nice to have a farm for some of the big scenes.

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2 hours ago, Dani said:

Personally I didn’t get the sense that Carl particularly cared about Sissy or Harlan as much as he wanted to maintain control. He was a pretty classic bully. My opinion of him really tanked once he used is state trooper brother like his personal enforcer. 

This is how I feel, too. 

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4 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I think we didn't get enough of Carl's POV to be able to judge what his threat and desire to institutionalize Harlan was really about. Sissy did seem like she was overwhelmed and struggling to take care of Harlan. Harlan also appeared to be getting worse post-Vanya's powers. Carl may have simply wanted to simplify his life by getting rid of both Harlan and Vanya, or Carl may genuinely have thought an institution was the best place for Harlan. I think you can make an argument either way based on what was shown on screen.

I think that Carl was more wronged than the wronger based on what we saw on screen. He lied to Sissy to go drinking, but she cheated on him in their shared bed with their houseguest and intended to kidnap their son to run away with Vanya. 

A slightly different Sissy/Carl thought is that I've realized the whole farm thing is weird. Carl's a salesman, so Sissy must be the reason they run a farm. But she seems unhappy about the farm and keeps talking about how her life isn't what she wants. I'm wondering if the writers really thought through the backstory of their marriage and how/why they're on a farm or if the writers just thought it would be nice to have a farm for some of the big scenes.

One thing I really liked about Carl and Sissy’s story there was no real villain. They were both miserably unhappy before Vanya. Vanya was simply the catalyst that made Sissy realize that she wanted more. I tend to side more with Sissy because at the time Carl had so much more power than her. He knew it and he used that power to try and force her to do what he wanted. I do think he is judged too harshly for some of is actions, like taking Harlan.

But I also think he is not judged harshly enough for other things he did. If you take away Vanya’s powers (which he didn’t know about) his drive with her and calling his brother play out very differently. The audience knows that Vanya actually held all the power in those moments but Carl thought he was interacting with someone more vulnerable than him. 

Edited by Dani
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If they got the math right this time and older Five stayed "old" when he returned to 2019, shouldn't "young" Five immediately turn old? Or will that not happen until he returns to 2019 from the 60's?

Did the other six kids choose their own names, and Five never saw any reason to do so?

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse

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13 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

If they got the math right this time and older Five stayed "old" when he returned to 2019, shouldn't "young" Five" immediately turn old? Or will that not happen until he returns to 2019 from the 60's?

Did the other six kids choose their own names, and Five never saw any reason to do so?

Robot Grace chose their names for them, Five jumped into the future before that so he never got named. 

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11 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

If they got the math right this time and older Five stayed "old" when he returned to 2019, shouldn't "young" Five" immediately turn old?

Thank you! This was confusing me so very much lol.

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1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:
13 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

If they got the math right this time and older Five stayed "old" when he returned to 2019, shouldn't "young" Five" immediately turn old?

Thank you! This was confusing me so very much lol.

Young looking Five is the one who made the portal. He may have kept the miscalculation on purpose in order not to alter the timeline.

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35 minutes ago, JonasArm said:

Young looking Five is the one who made the portal. He may have kept the miscalculation on purpose in order not to alter the timeline.

That's what I assumed - in fact, I sort of expected young Five to say he was lying about solving the calculation.    But it makes more sense he left the flaw in place when he opened the portal to preserve the timeline.  Of course, there's still the unresolved paradox that our Five has no knowledge of meeting himself in 1963, whereas the one Luther kicked through the portal would.   And the fact that Luther told old Five all the information he would need to stop the apocalypse in 2019.      Maybe going through the portal had the effect of resetting the events of Five's personal timeline so it's all back the way it was the first time around (for him).

Edited by jcin617
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On 8/5/2020 at 7:46 PM, Sakura12 said:

Robot Grace chose their names for them, Five jumped into the future before that so he never got named. 

That really doesn’t make sense to me. Grace became their mother when they were four. Why would she wait so long to name them?

ETA: I realized that when Five is stuck in the future and sees the ruined house he calls for Vanya and Ben. So they had names before he got stuck. 

Edited by Dani
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I'm a little confused about how Ben was able to jump into Vanya and have a conversation with her. Up until now he has only been able to interact with Klaus, because of Klaus's power. If he could just jump into anyone and converse with them, why hasn't he done that before now with any of his other siblings? Especially when Klaus hadn't even told them he was still around until last season? And then pretended for most of this season he wasn't there?

At any rate, I did get pretty choked up at his goodbye scene, I must admit. I'm in a sensitive frame of mine right now and that part really got me.

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On 8/6/2020 at 12:13 PM, jcin617 said:
On 8/6/2020 at 11:38 AM, JonasArm said:

Young looking Five is the one who made the portal. He may have kept the miscalculation on purpose in order not to alter the timeline.

That's what I assumed - in fact, I sort of expected young Five to say he was lying about solving the calculation.    But it makes more sense he left the flaw in place when he opened the portal to preserve the timeline.  Of course, there's still the unresolved paradox that our Five has no knowledge of meeting himself in 1963, whereas the one Luther kicked through the portal would.   And the fact that Luther told old Five all the information he would need to stop the apocalypse in 2019.      Maybe going through the portal had the effect of resetting the events of Five's personal timeline so it's all back the way it was the first time around (for him).

Just reading this comment made my head explode! I love time travel stories but always have a hard time trying to keep track of timelines and resolve paradoxes. 

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On 8/5/2020 at 3:27 PM, Zuleikha said:

A slightly different Sissy/Carl thought is that I've realized the whole farm thing is weird. Carl's a salesman, so Sissy must be the reason they run a farm. But she seems unhappy about the farm and keeps talking about how her life isn't what she wants.

I was just thinking about that, the farm set up seemed really strange to me. So Carl is a salesman, who presumably works in Dallas (hence him showing up at Luther's club) but lives out of town on what seems like a fairly sizable farm, and its just him, Sissy, and Harlan, and he apparently leaves all the time to go out and party and drink and stays out late. Sissy is a stay at home mom who seems to spend most of her time taking care of Harlan (or hanging with Vanya) and we never see her doing farm work, so...who the hell is actually running this farm doing actual farming? Neither Carol nor Sissy seem to do any farm work, in fact I dont even know what kind of farm it is. I dont think we saw animals or any crops growing, just an empty barn and fields, so is it no longer a working farm? Is it just in Carl or Sissy's family and they inherited it and just live there without using it? It would be more convenient to live in the city near where Carl worked, and they could take Harlan to see a doctor if they wanted to right? Especially as neither of them seem to want to farm, and Sissy's whole deal is being dissatisfied, it seems like they just wanted Vanya to be on a farm so that she and Sissy could spend a lot of time alone together, but had no idea what that would actually entail. 

As for Sissy and Carl, I feel like their marriage was on the rocks even before Vanya showed up. Sissy was unhappy, Carl was lying to her and going out drinking, Carl seemed to think that they were happy mainly because he was happy and because Sissy just did everything he expected her to do as his wife, they didn't ever really seem to have real conversations, Sissy cheated on him with Vanya and lied about it, this was not a great marriage in general. Maybe they were happy once, but even without Vanya things were not going well. Its kind of hard to tell the particulars of their relationship as both of them are basically filtered through Vanya and we dont get a whole lot of their POV and how they got here, especially Carl. The closest thing we get is probably when he got drunk and was asking Vanya if Sissy still loved him, which seemed to show at least some awareness that this relationship was having problems, and we know that Sissy is unfulfilled and unhappy in a sort of general way as she told Vanya. 

The situation with Harlan and Carl is kind of complicated by context. The first time he threatened to take Harlan to an institution, it was a threat towards Vanya and a seriously shitty thing to do, especially as many mental institutions at the time were not exactly great, but the second time, when Harlan had gone catatonic, it seemed to be out of actual concern, especially as Vanya was already gone as far as he knew. We dont get much into it, but Carl practically avoids Harlan and seems to spend very little time with him, and he in general isn't much of a dad to him. In fact, the one time he really showed emotions for Harlan was when he tried to take him away when he went catatonic. 

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4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm a little confused about how Ben was able to jump into Vanya and have a conversation with her. Up until now he has only been able to interact with Klaus, because of Klaus's power. If he could just jump into anyone and converse with them, why hasn't he done that before now with any of his other siblings? Especially when Klaus hadn't even told them he was still around until last season? And then pretended for most of this season he wasn't there?

At any rate, I did get pretty choked up at his goodbye scene, I must admit. I'm in a sensitive frame of mine right now and that part really got me.

I went with Vanya wasn't in control anymore so essentially her body was an empty vessel that Ben was able to go into.

Either way I loved that scene and that Ben was able to talk to another sibling and wasn't alone when he went towards the light. 

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Maybe the kids had names on their birth certificates before they were adopted, and Reginald just thought numbers were more convenient and clinical.  If Vanya was the Russian born child that could be why she retained a Russian name.

They may have known their names, but didn't use them until later when they started interacting with the real world.  Five never had anyone to call him his real name in the post-apocalypse, so he stayed Five.

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

We dont get much into it, but Carl practically avoids Harlan and seems to spend very little time with him, and he in general isn't much of a dad to him. In fact, the one time he really showed emotions for Harlan was when he tried to take him away when he went catatonic. 

Carl is something of a stereotypical 50s/60s character, and I think that extends to parenting.  The caring and nurturing parts of raising children are Sissy's responsibility.  The feeding and sheltering are his.  And things that he might do with Harlan, like play catch, or fish, or such, aren't open to him.  He did seem to care for Harlan, but he was helpless about most of what Harlan needed until it got to that point of needing real treatment.

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So speaking of the farm,  and any casual posters can tell I'm on rewatch and I'm bored and trying to make things fit. 

My family has a farm,  that has one house and one stable for horses and a pen for chickens.   We didn't use either horses or chickens because my family grew tabbaco.  Or tomatoes,  take your pick.  There are stables and pens we have never used.  One decade was a life choice,  now its why not tomatoes?  Way more land than we'd ever need and we haven't sold a tomato since I was five.   

 

If I had to guess Sissy's farm, while not a real front is more an excuse to keep autistic Harlan away from the city.  Lots of places for him to play,  and he didn't have to interact with people who wouldn't get him. 

 

Eta: regarding Ben,  I think the kids were way more powerful than Reginald understood.   We probably are all just learning as they are the cusp of powers. 

Edited by Delphi
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8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm a little confused about how Ben was able to jump into Vanya and have a conversation with her. Up until now he has only been able to interact with Klaus, because of Klaus's power. If he could just jump into anyone and converse with them, why hasn't he done that before now with any of his other siblings? Especially when Klaus hadn't even told them he was still around until last season? And then pretended for most of this season he wasn't there?

Probably because he couldn’t do it before or he didn’t know that he could. Necessity is the mother of invention.

Also Reginald was a truly awful teacher. He was far more concerned with controlling them than helping them to develop their abilities. Just imagine is the asshole had given Five that start with seconds advice when he was 10. 

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7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Is it just in Carl or Sissy's family and they inherited it and just live there without using it? It would be more convenient to live in the city near where Carl worked, and they could take Harlan to see a doctor if they wanted to right? Especially as neither of them seem to want to farm, and Sissy's whole deal is being dissatisfied, it seems like they just wanted Vanya to be on a farm so that she and Sissy could spend a lot of time alone together, but had no idea what that would actually entail. 

As for Sissy and Carl, I feel like their marriage was on the rocks even before Vanya showed up. Sissy was unhappy, Carl was lying to her and going out drinking, Carl seemed to think that they were happy mainly because he was happy and because Sissy just did everything he expected her to do as his wife, they didn't ever really seem to have real conversations, Sissy cheated on him with Vanya and lied about it, this was not a great marriage in general. Maybe they were happy once, but even without Vanya things were not going well.

At that time, Dallas would not have had nearly the sprawl it has now, so the farm was not necessarily that far from the city. And Carl seemed to have a traveling sales territory outside the city. Being on the outskirts would make it easy for him to pop into the city for drinks with the boss or to jump on the highway to visit clients. The “farm” could have been an inheritance (Carl seems very integrated into the local community) or someplace they got because it’s “a good place to raise a family.” I agree with Delphi that its remoteness gave Harlan more freedom to be himself.

Sissy’s situation was very typical for the time. Betty Friedan’s The Feminine Mystique was published in 1963. It describes how women were pushed out of the jobs they held during WWII and back into the home, only now homes were isolated out in the suburbs. They were literally going mad and Valium prescriptions were through the roof. Probably the only reason Sissy wasn’t escaping into booze or pills was that Harlan needed her so much. Instead she fantasized about running away with her money stash and jumped at the chance to emotionally/sexually escape with Vanya. 

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11 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

Maybe the kids had names on their birth certificates before they were adopted, and Reginald just thought numbers were more convenient and clinical.  If Vanya was the Russian born child that could be why she retained a Russian name.

I think it was Diego in season 1 that said that Mom gave them names. As for why Five knew their names maybe he saw stuff with their names on it while he lived in their ruined house after the apocalypse for all those years. 

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11 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I think it was Diego in season 1 that said that Mom gave them names. As for why Five knew their names maybe he saw stuff with their names on it while he lived in their ruined house after the apocalypse for all those years. 

Five said he had read Vanya's book (where she gives out all their secrets).

 

As for the farm, we know they have horses and cows at the very least and Carl's parents owned a farm (barn) in California. It is possible that they rent it out to other farmers...

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I just bawled during Bens scene with vanya. From the bits we’ve seen it makes a lot of sense that he was the one to get through to her, but also, what he said to her is exactly what should have been said to her. That she was abused and neglected and it was wrong but she can still change things. 
 

This season has been amazing with characters saying out loud the exact dynamics that got them into trouble last season. 
 

Im loving the genuine sibling relationship between them. Klaus telling Diego he looked liked Antonio banderas with the longer hair is such “klaus” for “I love you” and Diego was genuinely touched, lol. 
 

The Sissy/Carl situation is really interesting cause while I don’t sympathize with Carl, I recognize that he’s a product of his time. I say that with regards to his line of how he was faithful and provided and didn’t “resent” sissy for Harlan’s condition. The bare minimum was all that was required for men like him and he feels he should be rewarded. In the beginning of the season he really didn’t seem like a “bad guy”, he’s just not who and what sissy wants, which I imagine was how a lot of women felt in the 60’s. 
 

Im kind of over Lila and how easily she can be manipulated by her “mother”. Even Luther wasn’t like this. 
 

Diego wants to be the Hero so bad no matter how much he denies it. It’s what gives his life meaning. I’m not sure he knows who he is if he’s not saving the world.

IM loving this season more and more with each episode.

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Based on season 1 they had their names before Five got stuck in the future. During the bank robbery Luther uses Ben’s name. Five calls out for Ben and Vanya just after he gets stuck in the future. 

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The more I think of it, the more I think either Five does have a name and he doesn't use it because he likes 'Five' or they were allowed to pick names and Five chose not to.  Maybe he clings to 'Five'  like he clings to that uniform he wears. 

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On 8/9/2020 at 1:51 PM, DearEvette said:

The more I think of it, the more I think either Five does have a name and he doesn't use it because he likes 'Five' or they were allowed to pick names and Five chose not to.  Maybe he clings to 'Five'  like he clings to that uniform he wears. 

this is how I remember them explaining it (in a roundabout way) in the first season.

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On 8/3/2020 at 9:57 PM, tennisgurl said:

Oh my God Diego, just get over the JFK thing! Just take this averted apocalypse as a win!

I don't like how the writers made Diego such a gullible dumbass:

  • Diego could have prevented the assassination by just stopping the motorcade.
  • A few anonymous calls to different authorities could have shut down JFK's visit to Dallas.
  • Diego could have gotten Allison to rumor some authorities to help stop the event.
  • Diego completely forgot about the actual shooter, Oswald, as soon as he saw a picture of Daddy Hargreeves at the event. 
  • Diego tackles a guy with a bowler hat and umbrella - standing in plain sight of people - not on a grassy knoll. 

Even if they managed to get back to 2019 at this point, they have majorly altered the past: A lot of federal agents were killed by a unknown powerful force: Vanya, a suspected Russian agent, during a presidential visit -  which ended in assassination. The federal building may not have exploded, but there is no way the government isn't going to think they are under attack from another country. 

Sissy threatened her husband Carl with a gun during a domestic dispute and Carl ended up dead (via a series of unfortunate events).
Sorry, Sissy .. but that's on you. 
You go, girl ... to jail. 

Edited by shrewd.buddha
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On 8/2/2020 at 12:25 AM, h8omb said:

I just started watching this episode and it occurs to me that Luther has hardly done anything useful this season at all.

I don't think Luther has done anything useful, like, ever. Him knocking out Old Five was the most initiative and critical thinking skills I think we've ever seen him show. (ETA: OK, what he did to Vanya last year took initiative, but not so much the critical thinking skills...)

I am assuming Ben isn't actually gone for good (he better not be actually gone for good). I am eager to see what his message for Klaus was.

I loved the rescue attempts by Allison, Diego, and Klaus... Allison just getting on with it while the boys were arguing, Diego using his knives as traction, Klaus giving himself the pep talk (and calling himself "sexy trash" before that). And then Ben just getting things done and being awesome.

The pouting goldfish when Lila bought the Handler's lies was both hilarious and really sad! Also hilarious-- Klaus's fire extinguisher hitting Luther in the head.

So going into the finale, we've got Lila wanting to kill Diego, the glowing barn (presumably Harlan?) and whatever the Handler's response to it is, the siblings still needing a way home, one last Swede (who presumably also wants to kill Allison, Diego, and possibly the rest of the Hargreeves), restoring Ben (pretty please?)... am I missing anything?

Edited by dargosmydaddy
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On 8/2/2020 at 7:54 PM, festivus said:

Ben 😪

So sweet for him to say the things he did to Vanya. He was the right one for the job. 

😭😭😭😭😭 Beeeen. I loved that the two most isolated siblings (one because he was dead and the other through disparate treatment) came together. It was just really a great scene. 

On 8/5/2020 at 7:16 AM, Paloma said:

But I don't think Carl really cared about getting help for Harlan, at least from what we saw. He used the threat of taking Harlan away first as a way to force Vanya to leave and then as a way to punish Sissy when she refused to be the play the obedient loving wife role any more. 

Mental institutions in that period were mostly horrible places, where patients were drugged (to keep them easy to handle, not to help them), given shock treatments, and often abused. A nonverbal, presumably autistic child like Harlan would have been destroyed by that experience. Maybe Carl didn't know how bad these places were and thought that an institution could help, but that lack of knowledge would not excuse his using Harlan as an emotional weapon against Vanya and Sissy.  

I think it's hard to argue anything else. Sissy says she will never get him back. Carl isn't taking him to the ER. He isn't calling his doctor. He is getting rid of Harlan. And coincidentally after he said Vanya's name. 

Sorry, I don't care what time period we are talking about. Trying to use a child as a bargaining chip and then as a punishment is abhorrent 

On 8/5/2020 at 1:18 PM, Paloma said:

I see your point and understand your more charitable view of Carl. I guess my view is colored by both modern standards and my personal experience in the early 1970s in a culture that was only just starting to question traditional roles. Of course, the cheating was unacceptable, and he was right to be angry. But the line between rightful anger and threatening to hurt your spouse or partner is easy to cross, and IMO Carl crossed it when he threatened to send Harlan to an institution as a way to control his wife. 

This

On 8/5/2020 at 1:50 PM, Dani said:

Personally I didn’t get the sense that Carl particularly cared about Sissy or Harlan as much as he wanted to maintain control. He was a pretty classic bully. My opinion of him really tanked once he used is state trooper brother like his personal enforcer. 

And this. He knows that the law and society give him all the power. 

On 8/5/2020 at 3:00 PM, Paloma said:

Exactly. He was a nice guy as long as things were going the way he wanted --obedient wife who didn't mind his absences from home (including going to a bar to get drunk), plus a live-in guest who helped his wife take care of a difficult child (so that he didn't have to). I have witnessed firsthand how quickly a nice guy can change to a bully when things are not going the way he wants, and that is what I saw in Carl. There are plenty of people who get cheated on by their spouses or partners (I was one), but an appropriate response to that is counseling and/or divorce--not threatening to put your child in a mental institution.

This. I don't see even the slightest argument that he is worried for Harlan. He grabs him and throws him in the car. That wasn't a reasoned decision to get his son the best help available. It was a punishment. And we KNOW that because he already threatened it. He never once tried to connect with Harlan in anything we saw. He laughed at the kid for being nonverbal and talked about him as if he wasn't at the table. 

But hey, it was so charitable that he didn't blame Sissy for the kid's condition (or however he put it). Sorry, dude. She does get to ask for more. 

I get that she cheated. I do. And I hate cheating. But she wanted the hell out of that house well before Vanya came along. And if are gonna give Carl the benefit of context, how about we do the same for Sissy who was forced into a miserable life with a man she didn't love because she had been told she wasn't allowed to be happy. She was then trapped there by the law and society. Oh and her sexuality could get her committed or arrested. Then she gets a glimpse of what her life could be with a real partner who shares her burdens. But, hey, she made a vow. I mean, what could she even have done? She literally cannot get a divorce without cause (and it is a heavy burden at that time) and she can't protect her son from being committed if Carl makes that decision. I guess, in this context, I am really struggling to find any outrage about the cheating. It isn't 2020. She literally can't leave unless she does exactly what she tried to do. Drive off with her son and the cash she can hide. And we all see how that went for her.

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7 hours ago, The Companion said:

This. I don't see even the slightest argument that he is worried for Harlan. He grabs him and throws him in the car. That wasn't a reasoned decision to get his son the best help available. It was a punishment. And we KNOW that because he already threatened it. He never once tried to connect with Harlan in anything we saw. He laughed at the kid for being nonverbal and talked about him as if he wasn't at the table. 

 

7 hours ago, The Companion said:

I get that she cheated. I do. And I hate cheating. But she wanted the hell out of that house well before Vanya came along. And if are gonna give Carl the benefit of context, how about we do the same for Sissy who was forced into a miserable life with a man she didn't love because she had been told she wasn't allowed to be happy. She was then trapped there by the law and society. Oh and her sexuality could get her committed or arrested. Then she gets a glimpse of what her life could be with a real partner who shares her burdens. But, hey, she made a vow. I mean, what could she even have done? She literally cannot get a divorce without cause (and it is a heavy burden at that time) and she can't protect her son from being committed if Carl makes that decision. I guess, in this context, I am really struggling to find any outrage about the cheating. It isn't 2020. She literally can't leave unless she does exactly what she tried to do. Drive off with her son and the cash she can hide. And we all see how that went for her.

Thank you! This is a perfect response to those trying to justify Carl's feelings and behavior on the basis of cheating and/or the time and place in which he lived.  

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1 hour ago, Paloma said:

 

Thank you! This is a perfect response to those trying to justify Carl's feelings and behavior on the basis of cheating and/or the time and place in which he lived.  

I am almost NEVER TeamCheater but I really don't know what people think her alternatives/options were.

 

Y'all, I can't believe I got sidetracked, but can we please talk about The Handler's exquisite militaristic Cinderella cosplay (Major Ella? Cindersoldier?). The epaulets to show her power? The freaking TIARA AND SASH? I could write an essay on the brilliance of the costume design for her. 

mum-comforting-daughter-the-umbrella-academy-s2e9.jpeg

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This season has given all of the siblings time to shine, and I like that it's mixed up the groupings quite a bit. Diego, Allison and Klaus trying to stop Vanya was great - Allison's determination to reach her sister, Diego's determination to save the world, Klaus finding his own courage. Then Ben comes through for them because... of course Vanya's powers can't affect him. He's not corporeal.

The scene between Vanya and Ben was so good. Ellen Page's distress and self-hatred was palpable. "You aren't a monster, you're my sister" is probably what Vanya has always needed to hear. And for someone to believe in her so wholeheartedly. I actually teared up a bit when Ben asked for a hug, and didn't even get to finish it before Vanya wrapped her arms around him.

Luther is a terrible liar but is it me or did it look like they reduced his size in this episode? I haven't noticed it before, but in the scene where he talks to both Fives and tries to deny that one is going to kill the other, he definitely looked more normal.

It's crazy how seared into the public consciousness the Kennedy assassination is, because I recognised that panel fence as being the grassy knoll immediately. I absolutely could have done without the Five on Five violence. He's been almost flanderised in the last couple of episodes - angry, irrational, violent nutcase.

I suspected from the beginning that Hargreeves wasn't planning to kill Kennedy, but had some other plan in mind. Him being behind the assassination was too easy a story, but him being manipulated and controlled by a secret cabal was much more interesting. So was him removing his face and killing them all.

I really want Lila to join the Hargreeves kids, and be a regular next season, but I fear she's going to die nobly, saving Diego.

Not mentioned this before - I love Carl's car. Those late-50s, tail fin coupes are gorgeous. My dream car, ever since I was a kid, was a '57 Ford Thunderbird.

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