S02.E06: The Twelfth of Never

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Betty faces Dan in divorce court, and it sends her past a point of no return.

Promo:

Original air date: 6/30/20

Edited June 28, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Spartan Girl]

I thought I was done feeling pity for Betty, but this episode got me. Although the stunt she pulled at her daughter's graduation was bad, she actually seemed to try to pull herself together after going to that support group. And she was painfully out of her element representing herself at the hearing. And the way Dan gaslighted and rewrote their marital history on the stand was awful.

[Annber03]

That child molester rumor. OMFG.

That entire hearing was ugly. And sad. And infuriating. This is why you get a lawyer. A really, really good lawyer. She needed someone who could find a way to confront Dan without allowing him the chance to rattle Betty and push all the usual buttons. 

45 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

And the way Dan gaslighted and rewrote their marital history on the stand was awful.

My mom kept coming out of her room as the episode went on and was just like, "Can you believe this! What an asshole!" "God-given talent", excuse my while I roll my eyes practically into my skull. Shut up with that nonsense. And the way he kept dismissing the jobs Betty took on as he worked his way through law school as mere "odd jobs" (such a snobby view of that kind of work), the way he acted like she played barely any role in supporting him as he climbed the ladder...fuck you, dude. And for the love of God, he can stop acting like he just learned about Epstein credits after his divorce, we all know that's a load of bull. You don't get to be the kind of lawyer he is, you don't get to the kind of prestigious firm he worked at, without learning about stuff like that along the way. 

And bringing Linda to his daughter's graduation was nothing more than a chance to further rub his relationship with her in Betty's face. You know it, I know it, Betty sure as hell knows it, everyone knows it. I like how Linda talks about how much she doesn't like Betty, which, fair, she's got reason to....but then she's willing to show up at events where she knows Betty will be. Read the room, Linda. I get that she's a part of Dan's life now, she's engaged to him and all that, and yeah, under normal circumstances, she should be able to go out with Dan without issue. But given the current tension and circumstances, if I were her, I would just try and avoid Betty as much as possible, even if that includes not going to events like my soon to be stepdaughter's graduation. 

Also, speaking of the graduation, okay, Betty? Just take a minute to celebrate a happy occasion with your daughter, no need to turn this into another rant about Linda. 

Betty's parents refusing to show their support for her. Damn. That is cold. 

Given all the talk about how crazy Betty was, given all the restrictions being put in place regarding when she could see her kids, her vandalism, all of that, that makes it all the more stunning that she was able to legally obtain a gun. 

To call this entire situation a mess would be an understatement. To call it a tragedy would be an understatement. This is just a straight up horror story. 

[SuzieQ]

This is actually hard to watch!  Betty is batshit crazy but they way they've laid it out, you can totally get why and how this happened (Of course, not condoning what she did.)

Betty representing herself against the president of the San Diego bar association was just asinine.  Yes, she was losing her mind and not an attorney, but what was wrong with the judge to let her get screwed like that?  You would think the one wearing a robe in the room would have some sense of fairness.

[DanaK]

This definitely was a sad episode because Betty got crushed in the settlement decision and her parents refused to come be with her. Betty should have had a lawyer for the hearing and she seemed pretty lost at times, but she seemed to kick a little ass at times, as Dan’s lawyer seemed to acknowledge, unless I misunderstood that

She didn’t actually owe that 700k to anyone did she? Or did it just get deducted from her lump sum leaving her a few thousand? She still gets 16k a month, so that’s not bad

I too don’t get how she could legally buy a gun with all the stuff that happened

[Armchair Critic]

I can see why Linda would not like Betty but Linda enjoyed egging Betty on a bit too much. Not giving Betty her china was one example. Linda had already won (not that I consider Dan a prize) so her rubbing salt in Betty's wounds was petty (just like Dan).

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I can see why Linda would not like Betty but Linda enjoyed egging Betty on a bit too much. Not giving Betty her china was one example. Linda had already won (not that I consider Dan a prize) so her rubbing salt in Betty's wounds was petty (just like Dan).

I agree - it kept getting referred to as the engagement china which I assume means Betty and Dan received it as a gift for their engagement. Why would Linda want to keep the china that her fiance received with his first wife except spite and pettiness?

I rolled my eyes when Linda said she didn't like Betty. I mean, I get why she wouldn't but girl, look at your life. Look at your choices. You started fucking your married boss and you were somehow shocked that his wife wasn't happy about it and didn't welcome you with open arms?

7 hours ago, Annber03 said:

And the way he kept dismissing the jobs Betty took on as he worked his way through law school as mere "odd jobs" (such a snobby view of that kind of work), the way he acted like she played barely any role in supporting him as he climbed the ladder...fuck you, dude.

Seriously. Dan is one of those social ladder climbing people who doesn't want to admit that he wasn't always filthy rich, as we saw in a previous episode when Betty casually mentioned their past to one of his coworkers. It was fine for them to be on food stamps and for Betty to raise four kids while working part time jobs, but GOD FORBID anyone mention these things because Dan wants to pretend that he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. There's nothing wrong with coming from humble beginnings but any time that she has even hinted that they weren't rolling around in piles of money, he acted like she accused him of being a murderer.

[cardigirl]

Well, that, again, was really sad and hard to watch. For anyone who thinks it was exaggerated or too over the top, men and women have been powerplaying it to each other like that for a long time.  Generally, women lose. Although, men will say that in cases of custody, the women almost always win, so Dan must have really had some high level strings to pull to get it to the point he did with Betty.  I mean, she didn't help herself any with all of the shenanigans she pulled and all of the coarse talk she exposed those kids to, but that judge really was not on her side at all.  And that rumor at the end, about being a child molester?  Parents do that to each other all the time, in an effort to get custory of their children, wrest a better settlement, and ruin the other person's life. Just awful. 

It was a vicious circle for Betty.  One lawyer doesn't perform for her the way she thinks it will go, and she doesn't trust any lawyers. She was hopelessly outmatched in court. But she wasn't wrong in that Dan was not playing fair.  The fact that her file was not on record at the courthouse?  Wow. 

I wonder if that comment Linda made about Betty's china was really true, or if the show was trying to make her less sympathetic. 

I guess this story still has legs because Betty got let down by the family court, her family, herself, and Dan was such a meglomaniac. 

Murder is never the answer.  I wonder if Betty would have ever been able to get some sort of legal retribution. 

 

[AllyB]

7 hours ago, SuzieQ said:

what was wrong with the judge to let her get screwed like that?  You would think the one wearing a robe in the room would have some sense of fairness.

The thing is though, in this episode she asked for maintenance of $25k a month for 10 years. $3m over a decade, then done. He awarded her $16k a month for as long as they both lived and she remained unmarried. That would be close to twice the amount if Dan was still alive. So while it seemed like she got shafted, she didn't really. (At least in the tv show, I don't know how that matches real life.) I think the bigger issue was that Dan could keep on appealing it, and appealing it. If she'd just been awarded a big lump sum and very minimal maintenance it would have been to both of their benefits. The thing I really, really don't understand is why Dan wanted to shaft her out of the family home. Why convince her to move and then take the family home out from under her and then sell it anyway?

[SuzieQ]

40 minutes ago, AllyB said:

The thing is though, in this episode she asked for maintenance of $25k a month for 10 years. $3m over a decade, then done. He awarded her $16k a month for as long as they both lived and she remained unmarried. That would be close to twice the amount if Dan was still alive. So while it seemed like she got shafted, she didn't really. (At least in the tv show, I don't know how that matches real life.) I think the bigger issue was that Dan could keep on appealing it, and appealing it. If she'd just been awarded a big lump sum and very minimal maintenance it would have been to both of their benefits. The thing I really, really don't understand is why Dan wanted to shaft her out of the family home. Why convince her to move and then take the family home out from under her and then sell it anyway?

Well that's just it!!  No issues with the monthly, but the fancy footwork with the Epstein credits and only getting 28K as a lump sum was total bullshit!  She handled herself poorly but still!  He could have given her $500k as a settlement and let her have some sense of security, but he wanted her under his thumb forever!  He's saying he wanted to be rid of her, but in reality, he was setting it up so he could screw with her forever.

[txhorns79]

36 minutes ago, AllyB said:

The thing I really, really don't understand is why Dan wanted to shaft her out of the family home. Why convince her to move and then take the family home out from under her and then sell it anyway?

I think the initial idea was to keep it so he would have a place to go when he left her. 

 

40 minutes ago, SuzieQ said:

Well that's just it!!  No issues with the monthly, but the fancy footwork with the Epstein credits and only getting 28K as a lump sum was total bullshit!  She handled herself poorly but still!  He could have given her $500k as a settlement and let her have some sense of security, but he wanted her under his thumb forever!  He's saying he wanted to be rid of her, but in reality, he was setting it up so he could screw with her forever.

I don't feel sorry for Betty as to any of this.  She appeared to have two different competent attorneys willing to work with her, and she blew up those relationships.  She dragged out her divorce with stupid stunts which only served to antagonize the judge.  Even though she got a small settlement, she's getting nearly $200,000.00 a year in alimony in the 1980s.  I'm sure if she had better representation she could have gotten more, but even with this, she's living better than most people.

[cardigirl]

24 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I think the initial idea was to keep it so he would have a place to go when he left her. 

 

I don't feel sorry for Betty as to any of this.  She appeared to have two different competent attorneys willing to work with her, and she blew up those relationships.  She dragged out her divorce with stupid stunts which only served to antagonize the judge.  Even though she got a small settlement, she's getting nearly $200,000.00 a year in alimony in the 1980s.  I'm sure if she had better representation she could have gotten more, but even with this, she's living better than most people.

Again, that wasn't the point.  She was supposed to be a good girl and just go away.  Dan could do to her whatever he wanted and it was fine by the courts, but she was not allowed to have her say.

I agree, she should never have given up on have legal representation, and I'm sure she got frustrated by how they didn't bring Dan to his knees for her, but I think the idea that she was supposed to go meekly away and just accept whatever he was willing to give her was galling on far too many levels. 

I don't know if she had settled earlier, or been meeker, if Dan would have let her go that easily, anyway.  We'll never know.  He seemed to take a lot of pleasure in reducing the settlement as much as possible, and in fining her every chance he got. 

There should have been more balance in this settlement.  Not, well she had more than most so what did she have to complain about? 

 

[txhorns79]

10 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Again, that wasn't the point.  She was supposed to be a good girl and just go away.  Dan could do to her whatever he wanted and it was fine by the courts, but she was not allowed to have her say.

In real life, had Betty kept an attorney and followed court procedures, she very much could have had her say.  Instead, Betty let her attorneys go, skipped hearings and violated numerous court orders.  She engaged in actions against Dan that, at best, would be described as self-defeating.  It wasn't that Dan could do whatever he wanted, it was that Betty apparently decided if she just ignored something (i.e. the divorce), it would go away, and when it came time for reality to intrude (i.e. the trial), Betty self-sabotaged again by going into the trial having no idea what she was doing.   

My point was never that Betty should have been meek or a "good girl," it was that Betty repeatedly self-sabotaged.  However, even with her own self-sabotage, she still ended up doing better than most people.  So no, I don't feel badly for her on that score.

[GiandujaPie]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

Again, that wasn't the point.  She was supposed to be a good girl and just go away.  Dan could do to her whatever he wanted and it was fine by the courts, but she was not allowed to have her say.

I agree, she should never have given up on have legal representation, and I'm sure she got frustrated by how they didn't bring Dan to his knees for her, but I think the idea that she was supposed to go meekly away and just accept whatever he was willing to give her was galling on far too many levels. 

I don't know if she had settled earlier, or been meeker, if Dan would have let her go that easily, anyway.  We'll never know.  He seemed to take a lot of pleasure in reducing the settlement as much as possible, and in fining her every chance he got. 

There should have been more balance in this settlement.  Not, well she had more than most so what did she have to complain about? 

 

I agree with this. Betty absolutely played a big part in Dan’s success and had every right to feel hurt, betrayed, humiliated at the way he treated her. If she had just kept one of her competent attorneys, let Dan go on with his merry life and moved on with hers, she likely would have come out pretty well but she just couldn’t let things go. All of that is on her. At some point, she needed to just move on. Dan and Linda may have been a-holes to her, but she needed to stop reacting to them and stop provoking them. 

[poeticlicensed]

The biggest issue, IMO, was the under valuation of the law practice. Clearly Dan did some cooking of the books with his accountant in order to hide the real value. This is when Betty needed a great lawyer who could have hired a forensic accountant to file a competing valuation. Since that didn't happen, the judge simply accepted the valuation that Dan submitted. If indeed the practice was worth 10x what he claimed, then her laywer could have used it as leverage to get her a fat settlement. I agree with the others that spousal support means that your ex can keep pulling you back into court for an adjustment. And if Dan had lived and had a string of exes and children, I would imagine that he would need many readjustments over the years and Betty would end up with less. If she was able to get a couple of million to let go of the practice, she could have invested it and lived off the dividends and been free. But honestly, neither one of them wanted that. 

Linda is getting a portrayed in a bad light eh? I believe she would have withheld the china and sent nasty grams out of spite, because Betty was putting her through so much. No innocents here. 

[poeticlicensed]

I want to know if the child molester accusation actually happened. 

[Mrs. Hanson]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

In real life, had Betty kept an attorney and followed court procedures, she very much could have had her say.  Instead, Betty let her attorneys go, skipped hearings and violated numerous court orders.  She engaged in actions against Dan that, at best, would be described as self-defeating.  It wasn't that Dan could do whatever he wanted, it was that Betty apparently decided if she just ignored something (i.e. the divorce), it would go away, and when it came time for reality to intrude (i.e. the trial), Betty self-sabotaged again by going into the trial having no idea what she was doing.   

My point was never that Betty should have been meek or a "good girl," it was that Betty repeatedly self-sabotaged.  However, even with her own self-sabotage, she still ended up doing better than most people.  So no, I don't feel badly for her on that score.

I watched all the episodes in a row yesterday, and althought this is clearly slanted towards Betty and is anti-Dan, I  still found it interesting.  I followed this back in the day, followed both her trials, read every book and have seen, seemingly, every news program and mini-series on her, Dan and Linda.

My thoughts:  All were toxic.  Betty could not accept a divorce, and I agree with Dan that no money would have been enough for her.  I do have to say I LOVED the scene where Dan told her, "No, you are NOT gonna tell me who to hire and fire at MY company."  

Dan and Linda - engaging in an office romance while you are her boss and married:  both gross.  Betty:  Accept he does not want to be with you.  I have a hard time with her inability to accept six figures in alimony.  Yes, he was a big earner but dang!!   She should not have been surprised at not getting custody.  She rammed an SUV through his house.  That is seen as unstable, as it is!!!  

I have heard a rumor that Linda is not really buried with Dan, her family did not want her near where they felt the problems arose.  Just a rumor, though.

I am not on as much as an anti-Dan bandwagon as others, although he was a dick, but man.....dealing with Betty?  Never knowing what you are coming home to?  Chocolate cake smeared everywhere?  Breaking into your house and breaking stuff?

There was an interview with a lawyer who disputed Betty's theory that no lawyer would represent her.  His words were, and I paraphrase:  "Yes Dan was a shark but San Diego is a very large city with many sharks, she could have found someone."

I felt kinda bad for Betty at the hearing, she kept trying to get Dan to admit to an affair but Cali is a no fault state.  Sorry, Bets.  She was in waaaay over her head.

[AZChristian]

32 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

I have heard a rumor that Linda is not really buried with Dan, her family did not want her near where they felt the problems arose.  Just a rumor, though.

Interesting . . . but I couldn't find anything to confirm that online.

[lovesnark]

33 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

I want to know if the child molester accusation actually happened. 

It was brought up in both books, but there was no actual source. Rumors run rampant in social circles and it's conceivable that someone made a comment that they'd only heard of courtrooms being closed because of child molestation and it spiraled after that.

[Haley17]

There was an interview with a lawyer who disputed Betty's theory that no lawyer would represent her.  His words were, and I paraphrase:  "Yes Dan was a shark but San Diego is a very large city with many sharks, she could have found someone."

 

Agreed. In normal life lawyers, judges and court staff get divorced. There is counsel to represent the opposing spouse, often gleefully. Perhaps things were different back when this case occurred, but the fact that Dan was an attorney, president of the bar, and wealthy would not be a hinderance to obtaining counsel. Being a very difficult client, as Betty was, coupled with not paying your legal fees would present far more problems to maintaining representation. 

[poeticlicensed]

50 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

There was an interview with a lawyer who disputed Betty's theory that no lawyer would represent her.  His words were, and I paraphrase:  "Yes Dan was a shark but San Diego is a very large city with many sharks, she could have found someone."

Not to mention that San Diego isn't that far from LA, the land of many shark divorce lawyers. I know that Dan was pretty prominent in San Diego circles, but I have a hard time believing that no lawyer in the state of CA would take him on. 

Betty's sorry performance in court cross examining Dan about his affair in a no-fault state once again proved that she was over her head. 

[Goodtimes]

4 hours ago, AllyB said:

The thing is though, in this episode she asked for maintenance of $25k a month for 10 years. $3m over a decade, then done. He awarded her $16k a month for as long as they both lived and she remained unmarried. That would be close to twice the amount if Dan was still alive. So while it seemed like she got shafted, she didn't really. (At least in the tv show, I don't know how that matches real life.) I think the bigger issue was that Dan could keep on appealing it, and appealing it. If she'd just been awarded a big lump sum and very minimal maintenance it would have been to both of their benefits. The thing I really, really don't understand is why Dan wanted to shaft her out of the family home. Why convince her to move and then take the family home out from under her and then sell it anyway?

I am reading "The 12th of Never" while watching the show. It's a great book on the case, so much information that's not being shown. The book states that Betty asked for a $1 million lump sum along with the $25k a month for 10 years but was so surprising to me was she didn't ask for custody of her kids. She wanted to "travel and heal herself" before spending extended time with them. Also, while this was in process, Betty left for a weekend trip to Hawaii without telling anyone. Everyone showed up for court but Betty - unfortunately, this was common for her.

[laprin]

14 hours ago, Annber03 said:

That entire hearing was ugly. And sad. And infuriating. This is why you get a lawyer. A really, really good lawyer.

I suspect that the Epstein credits played a role in Betty not hiring a good lawyer. Every expense paid on Betty's behalf since their separation, which I assume would include legal fees, would be deducted from the lump sum settlement. That's how Betty ended up with a measly $28k as a lump sum. All of Dan's payments to Linda to cover her bills were deducted from what may have originally been an $800k settlement. No doubt a good lawyer could have managed to get her a bigger settlement, but how much of that would be eaten up by legal fees? I guess that's a risk Betty did not want to take. 

This show has taken me on a emotional roller-coaster where Betty is concerned. One minute I think she's a nutcase and get why Dan left her, and the next I think Dan's an asshole sociopath and I get (but don't condone) why Betty killed him.  I suspect this is what the real Betty engenders in people - love/hate. 

 

[CalicoKitty]

Was the judge in this episode's trial the same one who granted the divorce in a previous episode?  He seemed to be a good personal friend of John while they were waiting for Betty to show up for the divorce hearing.  That doesn't seem quite right.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I suspect that the Epstein credits played a role in Betty not hiring a good lawyer. Every expense paid on Betty's behalf since their separation, which I assume would include legal fees, would be deducted from the lump sum settlement. That's how Betty ended up with a measly $28k as a lump sum. All of Dan's payments to Linda to cover her bills were deducted from what may have originally been an $800k settlement. No doubt a good lawyer could have managed to get her a bigger settlement, but how much of that would be eaten up by legal fees? I guess that's a risk Betty did not want to take. 

Part of the reason the Epstein credits took so much of the settlement was because Betty didn't have a lawyer, and did things to drag out the proceedings.  If she had a lawyer from the beginning, followed that person's advice and kept her composure, the divorce could have taken a year or slightly more, instead of the five years it actually took.   

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

This show has taken me on a emotional roller-coaster where Betty is concerned. One minute I think she's a nutcase and get why Dan left her, and the next I think Dan's an asshole sociopath and I get (but don't condone) why Betty killed him.  I suspect this is what the real Betty engenders in people - love/hate. 

There's no reason that all of this can't be true at the same time.

[poeticlicensed]

2 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

This show has taken me on a emotional roller-coaster where Betty is concerned. One minute I think she's a nutcase and get why Dan left her, and the next I think Dan's an asshole sociopath and I get (but don't condone) why Betty killed him.  I suspect this is what the real Betty engenders in people - love/hate. 

If her parents were like they were portrayed, I can see why. We love you Betty, but you're  a slut! We support you Betty, until things get ugly. 

[geauxaway]

It’s sad to see how her hate towards Linda and Dan clouded her ability to be the good mother and home maker she always was.  She let everything go to shit and treated her kids horribly to the point of abuse.  
 

This episode was intense and emotional.  Betty frustrates me to no end, I want to shake her and smack her on the face “snap out of it!”  I am dreading the murder scenes, my stomach was already in knots last night.  

[Mrs. Hanson]

1 minute ago, geauxaway said:

It’s sad to see how her hate towards Linda and Dan clouded her ability to be the good mother and home maker she always was.  She let everything go to shit and treated her kids horribly to the point of abuse.

No kidding - dropping of the kid or kids and then leaving, not knowing if Dan was even home WAS abuse.

[lovesnark]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Part of the reason the Epstein credits took so much of the settlement was because Betty didn't have a lawyer, and did things to drag out the proceedings.  If she had a lawyer from the beginning, followed that person's advice and kept her composure, the divorce could have taken a year or slightly more, instead of the five years it actually took.   

Exactly. Betty was the one that dragged it out for so long by pretending if she ignored all of the hearings, it would just go away. Dan wanted to get it over with. Betty's biggest mistake was to not listen to the attorneys she had. She had a couple great ones, too!

[Quiet1]

It's all relative. If your ex was bringing home $10,000 a month and giving you a couple of hundred and then arbitrarily deducting from it because he doesn't like how you are behaving, most people wouldn't just be thankful about it. Dan was a control freak and knew how to work Betty. He led her to believe he was still in love with her long after he was with Linda. He was still having sex with Betty and even made her think he wanted more children with her. I feel sorry for the children but the adults were all horrible people. I wouldn't be surprised if Betty wants to stay in jail. It might be comfortable for her at this point. 

[bluphoenix451]

44 minutes ago, Quiet1 said:

It's all relative. If your ex was bringing home $10,000 a month and giving you a couple of hundred and then arbitrarily deducting from it because he doesn't like how you are behaving, most people wouldn't just be thankful about it. Dan was a control freak and knew how to work Betty. He led her to believe he was still in love with her long after he was with Linda. He was still having sex with Betty and even made her think he wanted more children with her. I feel sorry for the children but the adults were all horrible people. I wouldn't be surprised if Betty wants to stay in jail. It might be comfortable for her at this point. 

I agree that Dan was a manipulative POS who was doing his best to hide assets and avoid an equitable division of assets or provide even the slightest acknowledgement that Betty's contributions/sacrifices/support substantially led to his success. Having that said that, I can't actually disagree with him not liking her behavior because her behavior was violent, abusive, & visibly detrimental to their kids.

My view is from being kid who was subjected to that kind of relationship. My parents had a horrendous marriage and even worse divorce. The amount of money involved was substantially less, but you had the same dynamic. My mother stayed at home at my father's urging and raised the kids which allowed him to work long hours, relocate multiple times, and generally not have to focus on anything but his career and his side chick who is now his wife. When they split he wanted to give her nothing - which still makes me angry and has damaged our relationship and isn't something I'll forget or stop judging him for. However my mother's behavior was far more damaging to my sisters and I because there was always this threat of violence (and sometimes she acted on it) and when someone is that unhinged you don't know when and if you will be caught in the cross fire as well. That's an incredible amount of stress to deal with on top of the stress of the divorce and it leaves a lasting mark. I just can't get past that part of Betty and the fact that she STILL has not reckoned with the damage she has caused to her kids. 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by bluphoenix451
Missed a word

[Quiet1]

17 minutes ago, bluphoenix451 said:

I agree that Dan was a manipulative POS who was doing his best to hide assets and avoid an equitable division of assets or provide even the slightest acknowledgement that Betty's contributions/sacrifices/support substantially led to his success. Having that said that, I can't actually disagree with him not liking her behavior because her behavior was violent, abusive, & visibly detrimental to their kids.

My view is from being kid who was subjected to that kind of relationship. My parents had a horrendous marriage and even worse divorce. The amount of money involved was substantially less, but you had the same dynamic. My mother stayed at home at my father's urging and raised the kids which allowed him to work long hours, relocate multiple times, and generally not have to focus on anything but his career and his side chick who is now his wife. When they split he wanted to give her nothing - which still makes me angry and has damaged our relationship and isn't something I'll forget or stop judging him for. However my mother's behavior was far more damaging to my sisters and I because there was always this threat of violence (and sometimes she acted on it) and when someone is that unhinged you don't know when and if you will be caught in the cross fire as well. That's an incredible amount of stress to deal with on top of the stress of the divorce and it leaves a lasting mark. I just can't get past that part of Betty and the fact that she STILL has not reckoned with the damage she has caused to her kids. 

 

 

Betty is unhinged for sure but Dan is also to blame for the effect it has on their children. He knew Betty better than anyone and he could have deescalated the situation but he didn't want to. He wanted and pushed Betty to act the way she did, not caring how it hurt his own children. His sons were begging to go live with their mother, knowing it would help the situation but Dan needed that control over her. Dan wasn't home taking care of his kids but he wouldn't allow them to be with Betty for his own evil intentions. 

[Armchair Critic]

5 hours ago, AZChristian said:

5 hours ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

I have heard a rumor that Linda is not really buried with Dan, her family did not want her near where they felt the problems arose.  Just a rumor, though.

Interesting . . . but I couldn't find anything to confirm that online.

I read it here years ago in the comment section (some really interesting comments, some from people who knew them. You may have to hit "load more" to see them all)

Anonymous27 August, 2011

According to well placed persons at the Greenwood cemetry, Dan Broderick lies in his grave alone. Apparently the Kolkena family had Linda buried at a private location, although her name remains on the memorial stone.

http://atouchoftuesdayweld.blogspot.com/2010/11/betty-broderick-this-message-is-for.html

http://atouchoftuesdayweld.blogspot.com/2010/11/photos-liebchen-and-count-du-money.html

http://atouchoftuesdayweld.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-betty-broderick-case-truth-about.html

[lovesnark]

8 minutes ago, Quiet1 said:

Betty is unhinged for sure but Dan is also to blame for the effect it has on their children. He knew Betty better than anyone and he could have deescalated the situation but he didn't want to. He wanted and pushed Betty to act the way she did, not caring how it hurt his own children. His sons were begging to go live with their mother, knowing it would help the situation but Dan needed that control over her. Dan wasn't home taking care of his kids but he wouldn't allow them to be with Betty for his own evil intentions. 

Betty was acting like a lunatic, that was her doing. Not anyone else's. Dan was all for letting the boys go stay with her if she would act like the mother they knew instead of a foul mouthed vandal. She would not stop leaving filthy messages on the children's answering machine, she would not stop sneaking into Dan's house, she would not stop vandalizing Dan's property. They arranged the Easter visit, approved by the court. That was Betty's chance to be a mother to her boys and work towards having them live with her again.  Instead, she left another barrage of filthy messages on the children's answering machine and the boys paid the price. Her children weren't important enough to her to stop.

[bluphoenix451]

23 minutes ago, Quiet1 said:

Betty is unhinged for sure but Dan is also to blame for the effect it has on their children. He knew Betty better than anyone and he could have deescalated the situation but he didn't want to. He wanted and pushed Betty to act the way she did, not caring how it hurt his own children. His sons were begging to go live with their mother, knowing it would help the situation but Dan needed that control over her. Dan wasn't home taking care of his kids but he wouldn't allow them to be with Betty for his own evil intentions. 

Yep, Dan is a POS, but that still doesn't mean Betty gets to kill him. Fundamentally no matter what Dan did nothing he did was so violent and permanent as murdering someone. I also think that if this situation was reversed and it was a man breaking into his estranged wife's house multiple times to destroy things where their children could see, driving a car through the front of a house that their children are in, leaving abusive messages, and then sneaking into her house to shoot her in the back and rip out the phone so their was no chance of survival we would weigh those actions as worse. At the end of the day, those were not reasonable or justifiable ways to respond especially since Betty had access to multiple very good attorneys who could have responded to Dan's crap with actionable legal accountability. Who knows what the outcome would have been if she kept that attorney who was working to untangle his shady financial dealings - perhaps Dan could have been the one who ended up in jail.

I also hate the idea that someone is "making" someone behave a certain way. Someone can push your buttons, but you are the one that decides how you respond. Betty chose violence.

Edited July 1, 2020 by bluphoenix451

[Quiet1]

20 minutes ago, bluphoenix451 said:

Yep, Dan is a POS, but that still doesn't mean Betty gets to kill him. Fundamentally no matter what Dan did nothing he did was so violent and permanent as murdering someone. I also think that if this situation was reversed and it was a man breaking into his estranged wife's house multiple times to destroy things where their children could see, driving a car through the front of a house that their children are in, leaving abusive messages, and then sneaking into her house to shoot her in the back and rip out the phone so their was no chance of survival we would weigh those actions as worse. At the end of the day, those were not reasonable or justifiable ways to respond especially since Betty had access to multiple very good attorneys who could have responded to Dan's crap with actionable legal accountability. Who knows what the outcome would have been if she kept that attorney who was working to untangle his shady financial dealings - perhaps Dan could have been the one who ended up in jail.

I haven't read all the posts but I've never seen anyone say Betty gets to kill him. I certainly never said it. I think you misunderstand me. I think Betty is right where she deserves to be. However, if the situation was reversed and Betty did to Dan what Dan did to Betty, I am pretty sure there would be a few people who might feel like the bitch and her boy toy deserved what they got. I'm not one of them. 

I've also seen a lot of these crime shows where men have killed their exes over jealousy and most get a lot less time than Betty has. 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Quiet1

[bluphoenix451]

13 minutes ago, Quiet1 said:

I haven't read all the posts but I've never seen anyone say Betty gets to kill him. I certainly never said it. I think you misunderstand me. I think Betty is right where she deserves to be. However, if the situation was reversed and Betty did to Dan what Dan did to Betty, I am pretty sure there would be a few people who might feel like the bitch and her boy toy deserved what they got. I'm not one of them. 

Sounds like I am. I thinking maybe I'm missing what your original point was when you quoted me. I said that Dan was a POS, but for me I can't get past what Betty ultimately did because it was permanent and violent not just to Dan, but to her kids and your response sounded like "but what about about Dan did". It came across as excusing Betty or implying that her culpability was diminished by virtue of Dan being a dick.

Edited July 1, 2020 by bluphoenix451

[lovesnark]

Watching the episode really drove home for me how Betty screwed herself at every turn. And, it wasn't like she had no one to talk to about it. Her women friends and the social circles they all were part of saw this kind of thing all the time. Husband finds younger woman, leaves wife and kids. It happened all the time. It's painful, it's hurtful, it's brutal. But, you do the best you can for yourself and your children. Which involves finding the best lawyer you can to get as much as he/she can for you and your kids. Instead, Betty dumped her kids with Dan and went on a 4 year tirade, then cried about how she'd been screwed when she screwed herself. All the while spending 16k a month on clothes, trips and expensive food instead of paying her bills. 

 

[geauxaway]

1 hour ago, bluphoenix451 said:

I also hate the idea that someone is "making" someone behave a certain way. Someone can push your buttons, but you are the one that decides how you respond. Betty chose violence.

Thank you!  I have been trying so hard to imprint this with my EDD son.  His “go to” is “you made me mad / sad / break this / lose this.”  Ummmmm, no, you are responsible for your feelings and actions.  I can’t “make you” anything.  
 

Dan was a manipulative, lying asshole.  But shit happens.  Life sucks sometimes, it just does.  No one is entitled to anything and Betty had options, access and support.   I honestly can’t imagine having to deal with her in person.  It’s no wonder everyone including the judge was exasperated with her.  She wore everyone smooth out!

[chocolatine]

20 hours ago, DanaK said:

Betty should have had a lawyer for the hearing and she seemed pretty lost at times, but she seemed to kick a little ass at times, as Dan’s lawyer seemed to acknowledge, unless I misunderstood that

I'm pretty sure Dan's lawyer was mocking her. He was essentially saying if she's able to appear pro se in her divorce, she's able to get a job and support herself.

7 hours ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

There was an interview with a lawyer who disputed Betty's theory that no lawyer would represent her.  His words were, and I paraphrase:  "Yes Dan was a shark but San Diego is a very large city with many sharks, she could have found someone."

I wondered about that as well. Lawyers are a competitive bunch, and Dan was not exactly a nice guy, so I'm sure there were plenty of lawyers in San Diego who would have loved to go up against him and win a big settlement from him. Unless Dan retained all of them, which I don't think he did. Like someone said upthread, Betty's reputation as a difficult/irrational/non-paying client was probably a much bigger deterrent than Dan.

[lovesnark]

12 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I'm pretty sure Dan's lawyer was mocking her. He was essentially saying if she's able to appear pro se in her divorce, she's able to get a job and support herself.

I wondered about that as well. Lawyers are a competitive bunch, and Dan was not exactly a nice guy, so I'm sure there were plenty of lawyers in San Diego who would have loved to go up against him and win a big settlement from him. Unless Dan retained all of them, which I don't think he did. Like someone said upthread, Betty's reputation as a difficult/irrational/non-paying client was probably a much bigger deterrent than Dan.

I listened to a podcast where they talked with a woman who was a divorce lawyer in San Diego and also a friend of Dan's. She explained that Dan was a plaintiff's lawyer that dealt strictly in medical malpractice. He worked in a completely different area than a divorce attorney and wasn't familiar with most of them just because of the different areas of practice. He went against lawyers that represented hospitals, insurance companies, doctors, etc. Not local divorce lawyers. I think the link to the podcast is on the Fact vs Fiction page.

Betty's first lawyer was from LA and he was really good. If she'd signed the papers to sell the Coral Reef house, he would have gotten his retainer and she would have had top notch representation. She was just too difficult for anyone to work with. 

[divsc]

Yes, that's the thing - Betty not only didn't ask for custody, she openly rejected it UNLESS she got the settlement she wanted first. Even her lawyers were begging her to shut up, cooperate, behave, and GO AFTER custody, because they knew that, strategically, Betty would have a better chance of getting a favorable settlement and be looked at with more sympathy if she had custody of the children. And mothers typically are given custody, especially in those days. The lawyers knew that. They wanted to go after that angle. They told her to focus on getting the kids. That was the one thing in Betty's control. Yea, it's a shame that children can be used as pawns in a legal battle, but the lawyers were trying to put her in a good position to both get custody and that it would also help her get the legal settlement - and alimony/child support that she wanted. Betty refused to listen and kept firing quality lawyers. She wanted it the way she wanted it - apparently the satisfaction of Dan having to write her a big check. She didn't want to be "a single mother" if she didn't get the big money to do it.

And I think a part of her also wanted to keep making Dan's life miserable - by using his own children against him. That they would feel like a nuisance and a burden to him - that it was hard work, not fun, and also would get in the way of Dan and Linda romantic time and starting a family of their own. Like let's see how much fun it is for him with 4 demanding children in his way. Except Dan simply hired help and didn't really care. Most mothers would do anything to have their children with them. Betty seemed more intent on weaponizing her own kids to make Dan's life more miserable.

[SuzieQ]

6 hours ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

Thank you for that clarification on it being between manslaughter and Murder 2.  Parole in 2032?  She will be 84 or so? Apparently her second daughter Lee is all for Betty living with her.  I do not think Betty would hurt anyone else, she is no Night Stalker nor Ted Bundy, but she does need to pay for her crimes!  She shot two defensless people!  Five times and killed them.

She would have already been out on parole now except she refuses to show any remorse for what she did.  She is still trying to justify her actions.  At this point she should probably be in a hospital as she is truly mentally ill.

[TattleTeeny]

Dan's weird. Why would he think it's less impressive to get to where he was from a non-wealthy upbringing? I would think that would make even more of an impact among his peers, who seemed to be kind of in awe of him.

[lovesnark]

22 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

Dan's weird. Why would he think it's less impressive to get to where he was from a non-wealthy upbringing? I would think that would make even more of an impact among his peers, who seemed to be kind of in awe of him.

I'm sure a lot of his colleagues grew up in the country club set and he wanted them to think he did, too. He loved being a snob, he didn't want to remember the tough times.

[txhorns79]

17 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I rolled my eyes when Linda said she didn't like Betty. I mean, I get why she wouldn't but girl, look at your life. Look at your choices. You started fucking your married boss and you were somehow shocked that his wife wasn't happy about it and didn't welcome you with open arms?

I do wish we got more insight into Linda and her views.  Even if she loved Dan and was able to justify the affair to herself, it amazes me that she stayed through Betty's reign of terror.  For me, after the umpteenth break in or obscene message, I probably would have decided that none of this was worth it and left.     

[Annber03]

6 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I do wish we got more insight into Linda and her views.  Even if she loved Dan and was able to justify the affair to herself, it amazes me that she stayed through Betty's reign of terror.  For me, after the umpteenth break in or obscene message, I probably would have decided that none of this was worth it and left.     

This. And if I saw the way he was treating his ex-wife, that would put me off, too. You can sympathize with your fiance's anger over the way his ex-wife's treating him while still being bothered by the awful games he's playing with her in turn. 

And then there's the fact that he kept brushing off her insistence that they get an alarm or something to protect them, all because he didn't want to make it seem like Betty had won and left him scared. I mean, I get not wanting to live your life in fear, but the fact remains that she was threatening him and putting him and Linda and the kids in potential danger. And, of course, as we all know, the concerns about Betty carrying out her threats proved valid. So if I were her I'd be rather bothered that he didn't seem to be taking their safety all that seriously. 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Annber03

[divsc]

16 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Well, that, again, was really sad and hard to watch. For anyone who thinks it was exaggerated or too over the top, men and women have been powerplaying it to each other like that for a long time.  Generally, women lose. Although, men will say that in cases of custody, the women almost always win, so Dan must have really had some high level strings to pull to get it to the point he did with Betty.  I mean, she didn't help herself any with all of the shenanigans she pulled and all of the coarse talk she exposed those kids to, but that judge really was not on her side at all.  And that rumor at the end, about being a child molester?  Parents do that to each other all the time, in an effort to get custory of their children, wrest a better settlement, and ruin the other person's life. Just awful. 

It was a vicious circle for Betty.  One lawyer doesn't perform for her the way she thinks it will go, and she doesn't trust any lawyers. She was hopelessly outmatched in court. But she wasn't wrong in that Dan was not playing fair.  The fact that her file was not on record at the courthouse?  Wow. 

I wonder if that comment Linda made about Betty's china was really true, or if the show was trying to make her less sympathetic. 

I guess this story still has legs because Betty got let down by the family court, her family, herself, and Dan was such a meglomaniac. 

Murder is never the answer.  I wonder if Betty would have ever been able to get some sort of legal retribution. 

 

In Stumbo's book, Linda not giving Betty her wedding china back was a topic that came up more than once.

11 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

I want to know if the child molester accusation actually happened. 

I don't think an "accusation" actually happened, but I think it was an actual "rumor" that got bounced around their social circle as a possible "reason" why the court proceedings were closed and why Betty didn't have custody of her kids, which was very, very unusual for a mother, particularly in that day and age.  So I think pure speculation, whispers started, then the social set gossiped, and eventually one of her good friends told her that's what "people" were saying around town and their social club and Betty was horrified, mortified, and really upset.

[poeticlicensed]

8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

And then there's the fact that he kept brushing off her insistence that they get an alarm or something to protect them, all because he didn't want to make it seem like Betty had won and left him scared.

I think it was more about Dan thinking that Betty was all bark and no bite. He never took her seriously about anything, so why would he start after the divorce? But OTOH, unless there has been a history of violence or outright threats, who thinks their ex is going to shoot them? Dan probably figured that Betty would continue her bad behavior going forward and he would continue to try to control her with money and the kids, and he figured some day she would wear herself out and go away.