S08.E12: Prisoners of War

[slowpoked]

3 hours ago, Quark said:

Saul's happiness at the end was just amazing.

I think this is in part due to knowing that he will have a trusted asset in Russia. Granted, "trusted" is a very loose term, especially when it comes to Carrie. But when they were arguing about giving up Anna, Saul went on and on about how it was so hard to cultivate an asset in Russia and that it would take a lot of years to have someone be on the same level as Anna, when Carrie callously suggested that he just go get a new asset after getting rid of Anna. 

In Carrie, Saul didn't have to start that relationship from scratch. And no matter how horrible her judgment may be, or impaired, in some cases - Saul knows that Carrie is the type who will still go above and beyond the call of duty. And that type of relationship isn't something that he will, or can be able to find with someone else.

[gooberfish]

From the point that yevgeny asked Carrie for the asset name in exchange for the black box, what went exactly as Carrie planned or hoped and what didn’t at all?What did she have to improvise on the spot?  I’m not as smart as most of you. 

[Anela]

23 hours ago, scrb said:

 

Except she really doesn't give up her life.  She leads a life of privilege in Moscow AND she's screwing over the Russians and Oleg.

She has her cake and eats it.

She never gets to see her daughter again, and she's screwing over the Russians who were prepared to get everyone killed, including Saul. 

[Cranberry]

Plus, is she actually in love with Yevgeny or is she faking all of it? I sure wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life romantically tied to someone I didn't actually love, no matter how nice our place was.

[BrownBear2012]

7 hours ago, slowpoked said:

I actually liked the ending. I didn't see it coming that way. I think it's a nice bow to wrap up the Saul-Carrie relationship, which was really the heart of the show. They may never see each other again ever in their lifetimes but they (or Carrie) found a way to still be connected to Saul.

One thing that confused me though is that was Saul still with the CIA or NSA when he was moving out? And was that the first ever communication that Carrie ever did to him as a spy? Saul seem flustered by the package. It didn't occur to him that it was a secret communication until he looked at the package for the 2nd time. 

So is this Carrie's way of officially declaring herself as a spy? And if Saul is no longer with the CIA/NSA, does that mean he will have to pass her off to someone else?

 

I got the impression that Saul was retired or in the process of retiring. It looked to me that was the first communique he had from Carrie since she left the United States. As for Saul, it is not unusual for retired CIA/NSA "retirees" to still be in the game as unofficial intermediaries for high profile negotiations or back channels for spy trades or information on terrorist organizations or leaders. They can always decline to be involved but someone like Saul would probably want to still be active in a low key, low profile as needed basis. 

[Anela]

I liked it, but I'm sad to see it go. 

I'm glad that she didn't get Saul killed, and I loved his "Go fuck yourself" when she thought he was going to give in. 

I also liked that Saul now has a real relationship with his sister. 

I was expecting the comparison to Brody, it was obviously there since the first episode. It was still a bit jarring to see his video again. 

I wanted her to shoot Yevgeny, but I'm glad she's using him to help Saul again - for as long as she can get away with it. 

[scrb]

I think they overrate the value of the Russian asset.  IN the previous episode, when Carrie laid out all the books and the corresponding event and years, many if not all were events involving the Soviet Union or Russia for which there was little US involvement.

For instance they listed 2014, the Crimean invasion by Russia.  The US did very little about it except to impose sanctions after the fact.  It's not like Saul used this intelligence and stopped them.

If one of them was the fall of the Soviet Union or the Berlin Wall about to come down, again, the US didn't do anything with that info, if they had it in advance a few days.

The big coups that Saul thought he was pulling off was Javadi in Iran, which turned out to be a huge debacle, and Haqqani peace talks, which was another disaster.

Of course he was screwing up by sleeping with the double agent in Germany, whom he had to eventually have killed.

And Carrie and Saul got owned in Afghanistan the first time they ran into Haqqani and Tasneem.

So there was a lot of recent failure in their careers.  That was before Carrie decided to repeatedly go rogue.  I think the person taking over for Saul as National Security Adviser would be highly skeptical of Carrie's intel, given her career of failures or going rogue.

[LoveLeigh]

8 hours ago, BrownBear2012 said:

Yevgeny was just a means to a way. 

I believe she wanted to work in Russia as an American spy. 

41 minutes ago, Cranberry said:

Plus, is she actually in love with Yevgeny or is she faking all of it? 

I think she loves him but loves being a spy more. 

[RealReality]

That was worth it just for the look on zabels dumb face.  

Color me wrong about the Russians never giving back the black box or just keeping it buried. 

[RealReality]

On 4/26/2020 at 8:08 PM, Hoi Polloi said:

It's shocking that Yevgeny Gromov would trust Carrie.

..... but does he?  He could be feeding her misinformation.  

He had real feelings for that woman who defected and I wonder how he forgave Carrie for that. 

Who knows, I'll take the ending at fact value. 

[snarts]

Really, what alternatives did Carrie have?  Return to the US and face the charges?  Even if they were dropped her already tarnished reputation would not have survived.  She'd burned the bridge with Saul, despite the fact that the overall outcome was positive.

Fleeing to Moscow with Yevgeny was pretty much Carrie's only choice. Yes, she can't go back, can't see her daughter.  But really, was motherhood in the cards for her?  She probably does love Yevgeny, writing the book was likely cathartic.  Enough time has passed that Saul reacts favorably to her reaching out. She obviously still feels loyalty to the US and thinks she can be asset.  

Personally, I loved the ending. 

[TVbitch]

As finales go, it was good. I'm just slightly pissed off that Carrie gets a "happy" Hollywood ending. I mean, she is attracted to, and I think has actual feelings for, Yevgeny. She is something of a celebrity in Russia and lives very well. AND she still gets to be a spy hero to Saul and America. If Yevgeny was an ugly toad and it had been made clear that she hates him, perhaps her sacrifice would have been more apparent. 

I still don't like Carrie. It's always been her way or rogue. She's never had any problems defying orders, lying, betraying, getting people killed, ruining their careers, etc., when it suited her. Sometimes her motives lined up with her job, but often they were personal. She always has the notion that if she is doing it, it is the right thing to do. She is VERY lucky it worked out for her this time. 

The one part in the finale that annoyed me was when Saul called security to protect the Russian asset. They are being followed and the dude leads her down to an abandoned basement and never calls for backup. (?!) What exactly was the plan? She would have been safer staying in the crowded room! 

I was wondering if the jazz band they went to see at the end is the one that plays the theme song? 

[anne uk]

The jazz ensemble consisted of Kamasi Washington and friends. They've used his music in other seasons/episodes.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by anne uk

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, TVbitch said:

As finales go, it was good. I'm just slightly pissed off that Carrie gets a "happy" Hollywood ending. I mean, she is attracted to, and I think has actual feelings for, Yevgeny. She is something of a celebrity in Russia and lives very well. AND she still gets to be a spy hero to Saul and America. If Yevgeny was an ugly toad and it had been made clear that she hates him, perhaps her sacrifice would have been more apparent. 

I still don't like Carrie. It's always been her way or rogue. She's never had any problems defying orders, lying, betraying, getting people killed, ruining their careers, etc., when it suited her. Sometimes her motives lined up with her job, but often they were personal. She always has the notion that if she is doing it, it is the right thing to do. She is VERY lucky it worked out for her this time. 

The one part in the finale that annoyed me was when Saul called security to protect the Russian asset. They are being followed and the dude leads her down to an abandoned basement and never calls for backup. (?!) What exactly was the plan? She would have been safer staying in the crowded room! 

I was wondering if the jazz band they went to see at the end is the one that plays the theme song? 

Well, they were at the UN and by all accounts Saul and the other guy (can't remember his name but I like him) were kinda just absconding with a citizen of another country.  I could see why you would just want to slip out but why you couldn't make a scene.  

Russia is a sovereign country, if they have a crime that they think this woman has committed would making a big dustup about it be good?  

I know that sometimes as soon as someone gets on US soil they will ask for asylum but I'm not sure how that works. 

[JustCrazy]

I loved this season and am totally sad the show has ended.  The last two shows had my heart racing.  Bye Carrie and Saul, I will miss you 💕

[JustCrazy]

On 4/26/2020 at 10:08 PM, Hoi Polloi said:

It's shocking that Yevgeny Gromov would trust Carrie.

I thought the same thing.  How could any spy completely trust any other spy when they repeatedly lied to each other.  Suddenly, each thinks the other is trustworthy?  Why did the Russians not consider that Carrie was a double agent?

[Umbelina]

23 minutes ago, JustCrazy said:

I thought the same thing.  How could any spy completely trust any other spy when they repeatedly lied to each other.  Suddenly, each thinks the other is trustworthy?  Why did the Russians not consider that Carrie was a double agent?

They probably do suspect Carrie.  Still, she has skills, the purse swap was dangerous, but no more dangerous than things Carrie (and other spies) always do.  Getting the intel to Saul was, again, tricky, but Carrie is smart as hell and devised a plan to do that over the past two years.  The Russians were unaware of how Saul and Anna communicated, but Carrie was not.

As far as two spies completely trusting one another?  I seriously doubt it, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have a relationship that was both "real" and not trusting.  There is an adrenaline junkie aspect to many spies, "normal" can be boring for two people who live on the edge, and enjoy that.  (I love spy novels, especially those written by former spies, and also just their memoirs, or factual if dated information...that seems to be a pretty common theme.)   

All in all, I liked the ending.  It was true to both Carrie and Saul, it was complicated, and intricate, as the show has always been.  Would Carrie give up the USA to save it?  Absolutely, she is, and always has been, a fanatically dedicated person.  

I wish we had seen more of what was in the book though.  After all the bullshit Carrie has seen and experienced as a patriot, I bet writing that was cathartic as well as a cover for her ongoing activities.

 

[Ottis]

On 4/26/2020 at 8:30 PM, nara said:

She might not have remembered it, but his actions were clearly impacted by it

I think she realized this, and thus her final plan was born. It might have been only an option for a while, but it became the option she chose, or had to chose.

Carrie always took the hard way. The finale was no different. I didn't agree with many of her actions over the years. Some seemed unnecessarily difficult or complex, and there seemed to be alternatives. But in the end, we all must be who we are.

Carrie chose the worst possible ending in the eyes of some in that fictional world (a traitor to her country, and all the collateral damage that must have caused), and the only possible ending to her.

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Ottis

[Ottis]

16 hours ago, JustCrazy said:

I thought the same thing.  How could any spy completely trust any other spy when they repeatedly lied to each other.  Suddenly, each thinks the other is trustworthy?  Why did the Russians not consider that Carrie was a double agent?

Already answered ... whatever happened with Carrie with Yevgeny during her captivity set the stage. He cared for her, and his judgment was affected. She realized that.. And then because she is such an amazing spy, she did everything she had to to prove she was a traitor to the U.S. She went beyond their suspicions. But somewhere deep underneath, she was supporting the U.S. 

[Mysteyman]

18 hours ago, Ottis said:

Already answered ... whatever happened with Carrie with Yevgeny during her captivity set the stage. He cared for her, and his judgment was affected. She realized that.. And then because she is such an amazing spy, she did everything she had to to prove she was a traitor to the U.S. She went beyond their suspicions. But somewhere deep underneath, she was supporting the U.S. 

Also, writing that book that  was obviously critical of the U.S. intelligence went a long way toward making him trust her.

 

 

Just now, Mysteyman said:

Also, writing that book that  was obviously critical of the U.S. intelligence  community went a long way toward making him trust her.

 

 

 

 

[nara]

I suspect that Carrie might be cautious and not snoop in Yevgeny’s stuff, but look for other sources. That way, she would behave pretty naturally around him 

[Milburn Stone]

On 4/26/2020 at 9:11 PM, MartyQui said:

...she sacrificed her life to replace the woman she sacrificed.

A perfect summation. Thank you.

That ending was why, after just liking the season, I ended up loving it.

Does anyone know the music Saul was listening to in his den when Carrie came over? A requiem of some sort. Brahms?

[Ottis]

13 hours ago, Mysteyman said:

Also, writing that book that  was obviously critical of the U.S. intelligence went a long way toward making him trust her.

That was part of her doing "everything she had to do." The more I think about the ending, the more I like it. Carrie placed herself in a position she loved. She didn't love Franny, and didn't want a normal life. But she loved being damn good at being a spy, and for Saul, she went full circle, replacing the asset she gave up. 

I think the last season meandered and wandered, and I was not a fan of killing the presidents. But I think the last 15-20 minutes were perfect for ... Carrie. And that's really what Carrie was always about.

[Milburn Stone]

19 minutes ago, Ottis said:

The more I think about the ending, the more I like it. Carrie placed herself in a position she loved. She didn't love Franny, and didn't want a normal life. But she loved being damn good at being a spy, and for Saul, she went full circle, replacing the asset she gave up. 

 

Love this. Danes' performance as two-years-later-Carrie showed us a Carrie we'd never once seen in all these seasons--contented Carrie. And we assume her manner to be genuine, and coming from her relationship with Yevgeny.

Only in the last moments do we learn where the true source of her happiness is. The one thing that isn't crystal clear--and I'm fine with the ambiguity--is whether the "blissfully contented look" is a 24/7 performance for Yevgeny to get him to trust her, or it's real, because she's found a purpose even higher than any she had before. Like I say, either way works for me.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Milburn Stone

[Anela]

3 hours ago, Ottis said:

That was part of her doing "everything she had to do." The more I think about the ending, the more I like it. Carrie placed herself in a position she loved. She didn't love Franny, and didn't want a normal life. But she loved being damn good at being a spy, and for Saul, she went full circle, replacing the asset she gave up. 

I think the last season meandered and wandered, and I was not a fan of killing the presidents. But I think the last 15-20 minutes were perfect for ... Carrie. And that's really what Carrie was always about.

Well, she did love her daughter, she just realized that it wasn't the best thing for Franny to be in her care. 

[bluestocking]

On 4/30/2020 at 11:00 AM, Milburn Stone said:

 

 

Does anyone know the music Saul was listening to in his den when Carrie came over? A requiem of some sort. Brahms?

I think that was the Lachrymosa from Mozart's Requiem, but I'd need to rewatch to be sure.

[isalicat]

That is exactly what it was - the Lacrimosa movement from Mozart's Requiem. I was privileged  to sing it in a chorale last fall. If you liked it, listen to the whole Requiem - its awesome. And then go on to Faure's Requiem (also awesome) and my theme for the pandemic: Faure's Pavane which I wish they had found a place for in a Homeland episode (circling back to topic!).

[catsitter]

I would have thought that Carrie could have tricked Saul's sister into giving her the USB drive (or whatever it was) without actually having to go through with almost killing Saul? The sister didn't actually check whether Saul was dead before giving it to her, did she? Also, surely if she knew that the asset was female and had taught English many years ago, wouldn't the Russians have been able to narrow down the possibles to very few even though they didn't have the records from the college any more?

[John Potts]

Gee, who would have thought that threatening a nuclear power might be a bad idea!? Or that giving up fake info on Haqqani's whereabouts would blow up in their faces? At least Zabel ended up looking like the idiot he was. Trouble is, I still don't believe the Russians would want a war on their Southern border. Sure, it breeds anti-American sentiment but it would also bring chaos, with who knows how many countries getting involved. It would be far more useful for them to maintain a situation the Russians can exploit to their advantage (as Yevgeny said a couple of episodes previously) than a possibly cataclysmic war that completely re-writes the rules.

Why would the Russians ask Carrie to give Saul a paralytic and not actual poison? Though you have to respect Saul's commitment to his people even to the (what he thought was) the end - great "last words"! And on that subject - did Carrie fly to Israel while Saul was paralysed!?

I get the nobility of sacrifice - but maybe call for help instead of running into the basement? You're on US soil and you have a phone! Or maybe go straight to the front desk (I'm going to guess it has a security station) - it's possible the Russians will still try to kill you, but they probably prefer to carry out their assassinations in private (particularly if it might involve killing a US official).

On 4/27/2020 at 4:00 AM, scrb said:

Russians may be grateful to her for burning Anna and maybe writing anti-American books. But it's also highly unlikely that she could have free reign to be a double agent.  Russians would be suspicious, unless Oleg is so mesmerized by her that he is oblivious to her running intelligence assets in Moscow -- that's also being implied her, that her sexual wiles are such that she is manipulating a high-ranking GRU officer.

That was the least plausible part to me too. The Russians might help Carrie flee the country, but Yevgeny has never been portrayed as an idiot. He's not going to be passing her any intel (unless it's false info). Are we just supposed to assume she's some how operating a network under his nose?

On 4/27/2020 at 2:55 PM, ahpny said:

While the black box publication was surely problematic for this reason, the bigger problem I thought was this wasn't the deal they struck. The deal Carrie and the GRU struck was the name of the asset in exchange for physical return of the black box. That's NOT the same as releasing some black box information to the public.

Well, it's not like they had a contract! I expect the Russians will turn over the black (well, orange!) box itself in time - but first they want the diplomatic kudos of sparing the world from a nuclear exchange. What are the US going to do about it? Sue?

[Umbelina]

On 5/3/2020 at 3:12 PM, John Potts said:

That was the least plausible part to me too. The Russians might help Carrie flee the country, but Yevgeny has never been portrayed as an idiot. He's not going to be passing her any intel (unless it's false info). Are we just supposed to assume she's some how operating a network under his nose?

Who said she was going to try to get intel from him?  She has many other ways to accomplish that.  I do agree, it would be a stupid move on her part to try, and she has been reckless in the past, but never stupid.

For this to work, she needs him, as a lover, friend, but also as a slightly helpful cover for her other sources, and I'm pretty sure Russia has him watching her and reporting as well.  Which she would know, expect, and leave alone.

On 5/3/2020 at 4:22 PM, icemiser69 said:

I don't think Carrie ever gave two shits about her kid.   She treated that kid like a possession more so than anything else.  The only time she remotely had any interest in the kid was when her sister was fighting to take custody of the kid away from her.

Had it been a father who sacrificed his freedom to help save the world and his country from nuclear war, and is currently continuing to dangerously work well undercover with NO support to help his country,  by walking away from his kid, I think the response would be different.

On 5/3/2020 at 4:22 PM, icemiser69 said:

I think Carrie should have died protecting Saul's asset.  Instead Carrie does what Carrie always does, she gets others killed.  The idea that Carrie would be the replacement for Saul's asset is ridiculous.  

Yeah, what's nuclear war killing millions and making more millions extremely ill,  when compared to one person's life?  Carrie would have sacrificed her own life, Saul would have as well, if needed.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Umbelina

[dwmarch]

Another silly thing occurred to me. When they're trying to get Saul's asset away from the Russians they of course do it horror-movie style and run into a deserted basement rather than running out into a space full of dignitaries and bodyguards and people who would not allow a public execution to take place. The standoff is far enough away from the crowd that no one notices Russian mooks hurling themselves against the door and no one investigates the gunshot. So, with that being the case, they could have just let the Russians force the door open part of the way and then popped them. Maybe this would have been considered dirty pool (although as far as I am concerned all bets are off if you chase me into a basement with murder in your eyes) but they didn't even consider shooting their way out even though it would have been easy, practical and discreet with the added bonus of each dead mook-ski dropping a fresh gun for you to use if the standoff requires more than two bullets! Saul's asset already showed us that she'd shoot a mofo in a minute and that was in Soviet East Germany! Instead, she gets less consideration than Simone Martine who was much less valuable to the US.

[CaptainE]

On 5/4/2020 at 4:24 PM, Umbelina said:

Yeah, what's nuclear war killing millions and making more millions extremely ill,  when compared to one person's life?  Carrie would have sacrificed her own life, Saul would have as well, if needed.

Actually Saul was doing the opposite.  Sacrificing his life to keep the asset in place, and allow the ‘war’ to happen.   Which would not have occurred btw.   Nuking ground troops on your border is not a first choice by any means. Think fallout, which would not affect the US, but Pakistan and its neighbors. Even Kim jung has artillery and conventional rockets facing south as his main deterrent.

[Paws]

Saul was definitely very frail at the end; he couldn’t carry the chest of silverware and then his sister seems and lifts it away like it’s nothing. I wonder if the heart attack referred to was a cover for the ketamine paralysis and if his later frailness was a result of that.

[Roseanna]

On 4/27/2020 at 6:00 AM, scrb said:

But the doomsday scenario she rescued America and the world from was unmitigated bullshit.  Pakistan isn't going to rise up against the US and the POTUS isn't getting himself killed in Afghanistan.  Nor are Americans going to mass troops before they use Air Supremacy doctrine to raze AA defenses and other military targets, then economic targets.

Russians may be grateful to her for burning Anna and maybe writing anti-American books. But it's also highly unlikely that she could have free reign to be a double agent.  Russians would be suspicious, unless Oleg is so mesmerized by her that he is oblivious to her running intelligence assets in Moscow -- that's also being implied her, that her sexual wiles are such that she is manipulating a high-ranking GRU officer.

I agree in both matters.

On 4/27/2020 at 5:20 AM, nara said:

And I love that Saul would rather die than give up his asset. I need a boss like him!

 Saul made a completely unprofessional decion by putting his asset before preventing war. 

On 4/27/2020 at 7:52 AM, bobbyjoe said:

That being said my one disappointment with the finale was that the twist at the end didn’t involve Saul being knowingly in on the long con.   There just would have been something great about learning that Carrie and Saul— knowing that they were backed into a nearly impossible corner— had worked this out together rather than Carrie doing it all herself; it would have been a better punctuation to their relationship and felt a bit more true instead of Carrie— who just episodes ago nearly helped increase chances for war by stubbornly trying to save Max— having genuinely risked Saul’s life all on her own.

Yes, that would be a better plot.

On 4/27/2020 at 8:17 AM, dwmarch said:

I am surprised they used Saul's old method for communicating with the translator. That channel is deeply compromised and cannot be assumed to be safe. I mean, I assume the GRU debriefed Carrie and one of the first questions should have been "how was Saul's asset communicating with him?" He could have had other assets communicating the same way. Also, the method sucks. You get a tiny scrap of paper good for two lines of clear text? No ciphers? No one-time pads? No microdots? How is Carrie supposed to get schematics to Saul two lines at a time?

 I agree. 

On 4/27/2020 at 4:55 PM, ahpny said:

While the black box publication was surely problematic for this reason, the bigger problem I thought was this wasn't the deal they struck. The deal Carrie and the GRU struck was the name of the asset in exchange for physical return of the black box. That's NOT the same as releasing some black box information to the public. Indeed, publicizing selected black box information arguably conflicts with these terms in that it robbed the US of deciding how, when, and to whom it might release that information. And I never did understand what assurance Carrie thought she had to get that black box if she released the name first. What if the GRU took the name and never gave the black box? What was Carrie's plan then? Trust? If we've learned anything from this series, it's trust only goes so far.

After Carrie had given the name of the asset, the Russians didn't have to keep their promise at all. Now they only didn't keep it literally.

On 4/27/2020 at 9:30 PM, BrownBear2012 said:

The problem with series finales is the need to tie up so many loose ends...as far as endings go this one was better than most...worst being the Sopranos finale. I think the writers did the best they could given the time constraints of an hour long show. I didn't see the ending coming which I thought was brilliant. 

I think the writers wanted to show Carrie as a very flawed person. Her mental illness was a huge factor in her behavior throughout the series and this episode was no exception...the risk taking, the ability to deceive and lie to "save the world" it points to a person with a grandiose view of themselves. Saul took so many personal risks in defending her time after time and rescuing her from dangerous situations knowing that he could be a victim of her delusional and dangerous actions. I think he always felt, deep down, that she would never sell him out or betray him...the ending was solace for him whose heart had been literally been broken by her.

I was not surprised by Carrie's relationship with Yevgeny...she always used sex as a way to manipulate men...Brody, assets, etc...Yevgeny was just a means to a way. 

Good points.

On 4/28/2020 at 6:22 AM, RealReality said:

..... but does he?  He could be feeding her misinformation.  

He had real feelings for that woman who defected and I wonder how he forgave Carrie for that. 

That would be characteristic to Yevgeny.

On 4/28/2020 at 5:39 PM, TVbitch said:

I still don't like Carrie. It's always been her way or rogue. She's never had any problems defying orders, lying, betraying, getting people killed, ruining their careers, etc., when it suited her. Sometimes her motives lined up with her job, but often they were personal. She always has the notion that if she is doing it, it is the right thing to do. She is VERY lucky it worked out for her this time. 

That. The work of the spy is lie and betray, but it's not a solo work but a a team work. After Carrie fell for Brody, she put him before her duty.

Saul was her boss and more experienced in spycraft and foreign policy, so even if Saul was wrong not to give the name of his asset  (as I think), Carrie shouldn't have betrayed him. 

[Roseanna]

On 4/27/2020 at 7:09 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

If Saul's sister knew about Carrie at all she should've insisted upon a death certificate before she gave Carrie anything. And Saul should've been prepared for the possibility that Carrie would go off the deep end--again--and set up some kind of fail-safe.

Saul's sister realized that Carrie had an ultimate motive to come to her (just like Saul had), otherwise she would have just called and informed about her brother's death. From that she sister could have started to doubt that something was amiss, especially as the sister was supposed to give the letter to Carrie, not her to come to ask for it.

On 4/27/2020 at 8:17 AM, dwmarch said:

I am surprised they used Saul's old method for communicating with the translator. That channel is deeply compromised and cannot be assumed to be safe. I mean, I assume the GRU debriefed Carrie and one of the first questions should have been "how was Saul's asset communicating with him?" He could have had other assets communicating the same way. Also, the method sucks. You get a tiny scrap of paper good for two lines of clear text? No ciphers? No one-time pads? No microdots? How is Carrie supposed to get schematics to Saul two lines at a time?

Yes, Carrie was surely interrogated in Moscow.

On 4/27/2020 at 8:32 AM, ruby24 said:

How Frannie was treated this season was truly despicable. And out of character, imo.

I'm sorry, but the last interaction Carrie had with her daughter was not almost drowning her in the bathtub. Was that the only moment that the writers decided ever mattered btw Carrie and Frannie? Because she raised her until she was, what, 6? And the last time she saw her she PROMISED her that she was always going to come back, no matter what.

So Frannie's biggest memory of her mother is going to be that she's an absolute bald-faced liar who doesn't love her, because she abandoned her and never even tried to see her again.

This may have made sense if they had had Carrie give up Frannie when she was an infant, or even a toddler. But they didn't. Carrie fought to keep her daughter, she wanted her, even in her deteriorating mental state last season. Now, suddenly, this season she doesn't anymore.

BULLSHIT.

That. A small child thinks that "I am so bad that my mom left me".

Also, if Carrie was a normal person (which she evidently wasn't), she would started to make video calls with Carrie in hospital once she was well enough, or at least written to her. And when she returned to the US, for a person planning betrayal it's essential to behave as normal as possible, so it was a mistake not to see Frannie at all, for from that Saul made a right conclusion that she didn't aim to stay.

On 4/27/2020 at 7:29 PM, roughing it said:

What makes everyone think Carrie is a double agent?  She doesn't have access (that I know of) to US intelligence - that door has closed.  I thought she was laying low and having a relationship with Yevgeny and biding her time until she could start helping the US again.

She worked with Yevgeny in Afghanistan which ultimately gave the Russians the black box, and later she betrayed Saul to GRU (who could have get Saul killed) and gave Yevgeny the name of Saul's asset which gave the Russians a huge PR victory as peace makers over the bellicose US president. And all these deeds that have hugely benefitted the Russians, she has acted on her own, not on orders by order or even with any agreement with CIA or even Saul. In other words, she isn't only a double agent, but such a double agent who decides on her own whom to serve in any situation.

 Carrie seemed never to doubt that Yevgeny had a secret agenda although he had been shown to be a master of manipulation in the previous season? What if she had revealed the name Saul's asset for nothing and he hadn't kept his promise? Or even if he had been honest, his superiors hadn't revealed the content of the black box.

On 4/28/2020 at 6:02 AM, scrb said:

I think they overrate the value of the Russian asset.  IN the previous episode, when Carrie laid out all the books and the corresponding event and years, many if not all were events involving the Soviet Union or Russia for which there was little US involvement.

For instance they listed 2014, the Crimean invasion by Russia.  The US did very little about it except to impose sanctions after the fact.  It's not like Saul used this intelligence and stopped them.

If one of them was the fall of the Soviet Union or the Berlin Wall about to come down, again, the US didn't do anything with that info, if they had it in advance a few days.

The translator was in no position to give the top secret information as she was present only in situations where a translation to English was needed, not the negotations among Russian leaders. And the UN ambassador is hardly even aware about top secrets.   

On 5/4/2020 at 1:12 AM, John Potts said:

Why would the Russians ask Carrie to give Saul a paralytic and not actual poison? 

I guess Carrie would have refused to actually kill Saul and giving him a paralytic gave a chance to interrogate him. But why didn't the GRU men to give the name by torturing him? Wasn't it a risk for those men to stay in his house for  hours (half a day?) during which Carrie flew to Israel and drove to West Bank? 

On 5/5/2020 at 2:24 AM, Umbelina said:

Had it been a father who sacrificed his freedom to help save the world and his country from nuclear war, and is currently continuing to dangerously work well undercover with NO support to help his country,  by walking away from his kid, I think the response would be different.

When fathers sacrificed their lives for their country, children had their mother left. Instead, Carrie is a single parent. Granted, she has been shown a lousy mom who put her child in danger and never cared for traumas she got. Her sister certainly takes better care of Frannie who still misses her mom. 

When I started to think back, I have read a couple old war novels where a young woman is killed during the war. She is the ultimate sacrifice, much more moving than solders, f.ex. a nurse who stays with her patients when the hospital is bombed against all international rules.

Whereas such a (childless) woman is described as "pure" and loving, almost an angel, Carrie has always been described as "dirty", partisan and manipulative. A real example how times have changed!    

[Roseanna]

I think that, besides showing the US "bad" and themselves "good", the Russians had a valid reason not to give the black box to the Americans but reveal its content themselves. For if the President and his new advisor could have kept secret that there hadn't been no murder but an accident because they wanted the war, the adivisor for ideological reasons and the president for showing himself a tough leader. Although Saul tried to give the newspapers the truth, he had no evidence. He hadn't even listened to the message himself but only heard it from Carrie who - to anybody but Saul - wasn't a reliable source.

When Saul tried to speak sense to the advisor - no more going to the war based on a lie -, the latter's answer was that Saddam had to overthrowed. He seemed not to understand two things. In both case it is a question of the short term benefits and the long term consequences. You can lie once, but after that you can no more believed, so is lying really worth it? And even if you are going to win the short war, are you willing to build the peace which can take decades (or, if the country has a totally different culture, will probably fail and then there will be a war that you can't win)?

Which leads me to a conclusion that Yevgeny's claim that all Russia's misfortunes for decades was due to an American agent inside Kremlin was totally stupid.   

[Roseanna]

On 4/29/2020 at 2:32 PM, Ottis said:

I think she realized this, and thus her final plan was born. It might have been only an option for a while, but it became the option she chose, or had to chose.

Carrie always took the hard way. The finale was no different. I didn't agree with many of her actions over the years. Some seemed unnecessarily difficult or complex, and there seemed to be alternatives. But in the end, we all must be who we are.

Carrie chose the worst possible ending in the eyes of some in that fictional world (a traitor to her country, and all the collateral damage that must have caused), and the only possible ending to her.

 

The trouble is that the writers were always sentimental about Carrie and Saul.

Carrie wasn't a super spy she was claimed to be. It wasn't so much that she was beaten more often than she won (that happens to all) but she was generally untrustworthy and put her own feelings above her task (the black box was most important, Max's fate was secondary). Irl she would have been fired many times. 

And Saul was too loyal towards Carrie and therefore unable to be a good spymaster who must be willing to offer his agents if the benefits of the task demands it. The writers of the French spy serie The bureau of de legendes were adult enough to show this and other elemental truths of spying whereas Homeland'd ending shows that it was at bottom an adolescent fantasy.   

Edited June 22, 2020 by Roseanna
correcting grammar

[Roseanna]

Difficult to get a source inside Russia? The French succeeded to two and much better ones than Saul and Carrie in the serie French spy serie le bureuau des legendes. 

The fifth and final season of Le bureau that was really amazing and "adult" and makes Homeland's end seem even more mediocre and childish. Where Homeland's writers didn't succeed to make even a likely plot and admirer Carrie and Saul far too much, Le Bureau had not only a super plot and many-sided characters but it went really deeply to the basic problem: what living a double life and using people to get information causes to agents.  

 

[PandaPanda]

Honestly, the only TV series where every season is as good as the previous one

[SpyGuy]

Best ending of a TV series in a loooooonnnnnng time!!!!! 

Brought tears to my eyes. 

She sacrificed literally EVERYTHING, for absolutely NO recognition. 

[paramitch]

Wow. Pretty much perfect—smart, suspenseful, and logical. I loved the symmetry that Carrie—a patriot to her core—gave up country, home, family and loved ones, and the respect for the job that defined her, in order to save the world. It moved me deeply.

On 4/26/2020 at 7:24 PM, GussieK said:

I liked it. Very satisfying resolution to a morally complex situation. But we didn’t find out what happened in those seven months!

One of my favorite elements of this season was the parallel of the Carrie/Yevgeny relationship to Carrie/Brody, and I think the hints to the events of those 7 months are there if we look closely.

And my favorite aspect is that most of it was misdirection—that it was about a personal connection through her private hell, not traditional torture or spycraft. We already saw last season that Yev could be vulnerable to (and protective of) a female operative who was also a romantic interest, which was subtle setup for this season. And what I loved about this was that the 7-month asylum stay was supposed to manipulate Carrie into allegiance and manipulation by him (and them), but as with Carrie's observation of Brody (and growing sympathy for his trauma), intimacy can be dangerous on both sides. Here, Yev became Carrie and Carrie became his Brody (and of course immediately offered him and his side a huge amount of information if they could turn her permanently).

I do think this translated to genuine love on both sides, and Carrie's flashes of memory I think back this up. As I posted on an earlier episode, I think it was one thing for Yev to SAY he was taking Carrie off her meds -- telling this to a strong, cold, functional Carrie as his respected antagonist. But that became something entirely different when he was faced with a nonfunctional, vulnerable Carrie in the depths of madness, willing to kill herself to escape her suffering.

And I think that was the moment. I just think while Yev could deliver a cold bullet to a traitor fellow assassin, he could not watch this woman suffer. Yev said himself (and I believed him) that he not only stopped her suicide attempt, but he put her back on her meds. We know that they spent a lot of time together at this point, walking and talking, and that she was honest enough about her life to tell him about Brody, Frannie, and even her awful moment of nearly drowning Frannie in the tub. Then the clearest memory we get from Carrie is her being ripped away from Yevgeny as she embraces him, and her weeping heartbreakingly for him not to leave her. My take here is that at a certain point, Yev's kindness for her caused him to be removed from the asylum entirely, and a detached jailer was put in charge instead, her meds were permanently withheld, and that's how we got the Carrie who had completely lost herself at the end of S7. Yev, a game player, accepted it although I think he felt guilt over it (heavily implied in S8E1).

And I think all of that directly factored into this ending -- Yevgeny is now a superstar with the GRU at that point. He'd uncovered the double agent who'd caused them decades of trouble, publicly turned a high-profile CIA operative (scoring major PR points when she wrote the book), and had made Russia look like a superhero in stopping world war.

It's just that Yevgeny (who I think really loves Carrie) never quite got the depth of her loyalty to her country. I love that Carrie was willing to play the long game, to give up everything, in order to save the world and to try to make things right in the end (or at least somewhat balance the scales). And that Yev may love her but he will always underestimate her. Woe to him for doing so.

On 4/26/2020 at 10:12 PM, chocolatine said:

That apartment seemed way over the top for me, that whole glamorous sequence seemed like it belonged in a James Bond movie and was a jarring shift from the usual grittiness of the show. Moscow is one of the most expensive cities in the world, and the few Muscovites who can afford that kind of luxury are bound to draw attention to themselves

Of course Yevgeny would have been lauded and richly compensated. He'd caught a double agent they hadn't been able to stop for multiple decades, causing irreparable harm, he'd turned a CIA hero into an asset who publicly betrayed America, and made Russia look like heroes in stopping a world war. Best of all, the asset is literally under his thumb as his paramour.

So to me it's believable that he and Carrie have a sumptuous life after that -- it would have been routine (it's one of the carrots the Russians often hold out as inspiration for a select few), and was also useful from a PR standpoint. Carrie is a celebrity to them now, adored for choosing them over the U.S. She even doubled down with her book, toasting every single bridge and US friend forever. Why should they doubt her now? Plus, her book probably made her a pretty tidy fortune on her own worldwide, which she would have been allowed to keep, as well.

On 4/27/2020 at 2:06 PM, slowpoked said:

It just a huge plot contrivance to me that because of Carrie, once again, was the reason why the box fell into the wrong hands in the first place.

I don't agree. As many others commented at the time, Max's first act should have been to go for that black box. It was the single most important thing to take away from the crash site. Carrie asking him to get it wasn't irresponsible, but essential. Two presidents were dead. The evidence was crucial, even if lives were lost in attaining it.

On 4/27/2020 at 5:25 PM, slowpoked said:

In Carrie, Saul didn't have to start that relationship from scratch. And no matter how horrible her judgment may be, or impaired, in some cases - Saul knows that Carrie is the type who will still go above and beyond the call of duty. And that type of relationship isn't something that he will, or can be able to find with someone else.

Carrie and Saul live in a callous world yet I still think they feel and mourn every death. I agree that Carrie is the perfect agent on the ground for Saul to run as the end of this episode occurs. He's retiring, even further beyond suspicion as an insider, she's a very public traitor, and their relationship means there's an instant shorthand between them. Best of all (for me), is his vindication of his faith in her, that she will always work for the greater good.

On 4/27/2020 at 7:28 PM, Cranberry said:

Plus, is she actually in love with Yevgeny or is she faking all of it? I sure wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life romantically tied to someone I didn't actually love, no matter how nice our place was.

I think she loves Yevgeny and that it's truly mutual. I think Carrie's already shown over 8 years that she's a superb compartmentalizer, as is Yevgeny. He put himself into genuine harm's way for her multiple times this season (while, yes, protecting a potential high-profile asset), as when he stayed behind as the extraction team came for her and Max's body. My bet is that both love and enjoy each other, have a great life, and hold 20% of suspicion that always goes with spycraft. (I do think she's smart enough never to snoop on him directly.)

I think Carrie still holds the upper hand. As far as Yev knows, Carrie's bridges are all charcoal. She burned every bridge to get that recording, and came through. I love how wrong he is. Because Carrie and Saul will always be a family in some sense.

On 4/28/2020 at 5:54 AM, snarts said:

Fleeing to Moscow with Yevgeny was pretty much Carrie's only choice. Yes, she can't go back, can't see her daughter.  But really, was motherhood in the cards for her?

I'm very puzzled by those who are hand-wringing over Frannie. Carrie aptly demonstrated last season that while she loves Frannie, she is also aware that she herself is not a fit mother. I was thrilled to finally have the issue ended, with Carrie's sister giving Frannie a happier home than Carrie ever could. And I also think it's deserved, as Carrie's sister and father had pressured her to have the baby (she didn't want to) and promised to care for it if she did so. I do think it's sad that Carrie's sacrifice included Frannie, but she can at least console herself that Frannie is safe and loved -- safer than if she herself were parenting her.

On 4/28/2020 at 7:39 AM, TVbitch said:

The one part in the finale that annoyed me was when Saul called security to protect the Russian asset. They are being followed and the dude leads her down to an abandoned basement and never calls for backup. (?!) What exactly was the plan? She would have been safer staying in the crowded room!

Not really. They were in the embassy, on "Russian soil." Anna could have been openly arrested and yanked away by a cadre of guards and there would have been nothing anyone could do about it, then tortured for years. The only thing possible was for Saul's guy to try to sneak her away (and it almost worked).

On 4/28/2020 at 12:27 PM, Umbelina said:

All in all, I liked the ending.  It was true to both Carrie and Saul, it was complicated, and intricate, as the show has always been.  Would Carrie give up the USA to save it?  Absolutely, she is, and always has been, a fanatically dedicated person.  

Beautifully said. I feel the same way. And after her relationship with Brody and all the conflicting loyalties and subterfuges, a relationship with Yev would be a cake walk. She'd be smart enough not to spy on him personally, so she could keep it clean. She could just be herself. and I think the book publicly stating her betrayal of her country for all time would also have been a relaxation factor for him.

On 4/30/2020 at 12:33 PM, Milburn Stone said:

Love this. Danes' performance as two-years-later-Carrie showed us a Carrie we'd never once seen in all these seasons--contented Carrie. And we assume her manner to be genuine, and coming from her relationship with Yevgeny.

Only in the last moments do we learn where the true source of her happiness is. The one thing that isn't crystal clear--and I'm fine with the ambiguity--is whether the "blissfully contented look" is a 24/7 performance for Yevgeny to get him to trust her, or it's real, because she's found a purpose even higher than any she had before. Like I say, either way works for me.

Me too! My vote is both. I found myself oddly touched by seeing them together at the end -- they both just looked so truly happy. (Sorry, I'm a shipper. And a sucker. And we've never seen Carrie so free and happy before.)

Meanwhile, I yelped that she was still true to SpyDaddy Saul. The dawning look of revelation and joy on Saul's face was just lovely -- the realization that Carrie was still HIS Carrie, that she was still always going to be the person trying to do the right thing.

On 5/3/2020 at 3:12 PM, John Potts said:

Why would the Russians ask Carrie to give Saul a paralytic and not actual poison? Though you have to respect Saul's commitment to his people even to the (what he thought was) the end - great "last words"! And on that subject - did Carrie fly to Israel while Saul was paralysed!?

1. The paralytic allowed Saul the power of speech while immobilizing him. She was trying to get Anna's name without killing him. (Which, thank goodness, Carrie showed she would never be able to do.)

2. The GRU kill team's supervision gave Carrie the rest of the night (and morning) to go to Plan B with Saul immobilized -- to fly to talk to Saul's sister, knowing she was safe from a warning call from Saul. It's also why she swiped his sister's phone when she got into the cab, to delay discovery.

On 5/4/2020 at 4:24 PM, Umbelina said:

For this to work, she needs [Yevgeny], as a lover, friend, but also as a slightly helpful cover for her other sources, and I'm pretty sure Russia has him watching her and reporting as well.  Which she would know, expect, and leave alone.

Had it been a father who sacrificed his freedom to help save the world and his country from nuclear war, and is currently continuing to dangerously work well undercover with NO support to help his country,  by walking away from his kid, I think the response would be different.

Yeah, what's nuclear war killing millions and making more millions extremely ill,  when compared to one person's life?  Carrie would have sacrificed her own life, Saul would have as well, if needed.

I loved everything about this and your other post. This, 100%.

On 5/27/2020 at 10:00 PM, Paws said:

Saul was definitely very frail at the end; he couldn’t carry the chest of silverware and then his sister seems and lifts it away like it’s nothing. I wonder if the heart attack referred to was a cover for the ketamine paralysis and if his later frailness was a result of that.

I don't know -- to me he looked hale, just slightly careful in the aftermath of that heart attack, and that his sister was being protective. I didn't think he looked frail. I loved that he said he was "done" and his bookstore cover friend just grinned and said, "You sure?" because he knew Saul.

Thank you everyone for the great debates over the years! A fantastic show beginning to end, and the conversations were so much fun.

Edited January 19, 2021 by paramitch
typo

[Kel Varnsen]

That episode was weird. I really don't understand why the Russians sent a kill squad to not kill Saul. Since you would think a dead National Security Advisor would really mess things up for the US.

I also thought they dragged out the fact that Carrie was a double agent for way too long, when it seemed pretty obvious once they did the 2 years later thing. She had a stack of passports and could have probably just done the Jason Borne live on a beach thing if she wanted to.

Also it is good that the US and Pakistan didn't go to war, but aren't things still really bad in Afghanistan? Like the whole active war with the Taliban thing. They kind of forgot about that.

On 1/19/2021 at 2:08 PM, paramitch said:

Not really. They were in the embassy, on "Russian soil." Anna could have been openly arrested and yanked away by a cadre of guards and there would have been nothing anyone could do about it, then tortured for years. The only thing possible was for Saul's guy to try to sneak her away (and it almost worked).

They weren't in the embassy they were in the UN building, which I believe is like international waters. Not sure what would happen if Russians tried to take her into custody and Americans out up a fight though.

On 1/19/2021 at 2:08 PM, paramitch said:

don't agree. As many others commented at the time, Max's first act should have been to go for that black box. It was the single most important thing to take away from the crash site. Carrie asking him to get it wasn't irresponsible, but essential. Two presidents were dead. The evidence was crucial, even if lives were lost in attaining it.

It really should have been an obvious priority to everyone, not just Carrie. And it's actually still not clear to me why they only sent a small squad of soldiers to secure the two crash sites, especially when the second helicopter confirmed that there were Taliban fighters in the area. Did the rest of the base have something better to do than rescue the president?

[Roseanna]

On 6/29/2021 at 4:26 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

That episode was weird. I really don't understand why the Russians sent a kill squad to not kill Saul.

Maybe it was Carrie's term for cooperation?

[jabRI]

Just finished this season on Hulu.  I think people are making too much of Saul's move.  He's recovering from a heart attack and lives alone, does not need that big house. I think he's too young for assisted living, more likely downsizing to a condo, with 'help' from a maid, maybe a once a week cook