S03.E07: Passed Pawn

[paigow]

A lot of this also could be Blade Runner ...Caleb is Deckard, hunting down his own "kind", has an epiphany and breaks away from society.

Serac is likely not expecting Caleb to successfully mobilize an outlier army. The plan might be to hijack the RICO app... 

Edited April 30, 2020 by paigow

[The Companion]

3 hours ago, parandroid said:

I won't say they "stole the plot", but these themes are not uncommon in science fiction. But a specific reference that the writers have acknowledged is to "Stand on Zanzibar". See here.

I just want to add that just because a theme is re-used, doesn't mean that there is nothing worth seeing. Bob Dylan's "All along the Watch Tower" has been remade umpteen times, but all the versions that I've heard are distinctive and have brought something new to the table. It doesn't bother me that there are similarities with other works before. The new interpretations are what the art is all about.

Agreed. Similar themes and stories exist across genres. There are many science fiction works that explore dystopian society with authoritarian leaders and set roles based by the leaders. The themes and ideas here are similar, but they aren't the same. The execution isn't the same. The story isn't the same. Ultimately, when broken down, there are only so many concepts. What matters is how they come together. To me, this story is fresh and dynamic. More importantly, I love good world building and I really feel like this show has created a world that feels familiar and feasible but different from our current reality. Mileage varies, of course.

1 hour ago, paigow said:

A lot of this also could be Blade Runner ...Caleb is Dekker, hunting down his own "kind", has an epiphany and breaks away from society.

Serac is likely not expecting Caleb to successfully mobilize an outlier army. The plan might be to hijack the RICO app... 

Spoiler

I doubt it is going to happen, but I would love if there was a manual failsafe that woke the undesirables. An entire army created as a byproduct of the system. People who were discarded for the chaos they could bring fulfilling that prediction as a direct result of trying to take them out of the game. 

Ok, I have a theory that I really don't think will happen but I am spoilering it just in case because it is technically speculation.

[WaltersHair]

There's some elements of the movie Colossus The Forbin Project to this season. It's an old movie with hopelessly outdated technology, but it scared me to death as a kid. The central ideas still hold up: computers taking over the world.

But Westworld isn't scaring me in the least. I'm not buying what they're selling and can't put a finger on why not.

[Cthulhudrew]

 

10 hours ago, arc said:

He got out of the flying car and cast a shadow, but he didn’t physically interact with Hale even then.

the holo projections are some bullshit though because they always perfectly integrate Serac into the lighting of the area....

Didn't Serac also put the glasses on that guy they were torturing several episodes ago? I don't have the energy to go back and check myself.

I will say that the hologram thing is also bullshit for another reason- where is the projector? Everywhere he goes there happens to be some kind of device capable of holography? Like the airplane hangar?

Edited April 28, 2020 by Cthulhudrew

[Prower]

You know, I really couldn't get invested in that fight between Maeve and Dolores when the only rule about what disables these robots (they can't be killed as long as their pearl is intact and even then there can be backups) is "what the writers feel like at that exact moment". Sometimes one bullet is enough, sometimes one stab to the chest. Sometimes they are bullet sponges and you can lob an arm off. Doesn't matter that it robs the show of any suspense, only thing that matters is that it looks cool in the moment.

Also why can't Maeve just control Dolores? Was there ever a good explaination? I don't think so...

Was there anything to this episode, except for that fight? Not really, right? Everything else you could kinda predict. Except, why did Jessi Pinkman shoot Keith Mars exactly? Seems like that guy would have been his best bet to get out of that situation unbrainwashed... Oh well...

Edited April 28, 2020 by Prower

[dr pepper]

This week on For a Few Doloreses More:

I still don't get Maeve's commitment to stopping Dolores. She says she doesn't trust Dolores having the key to the virtual robot heaven, but she never asked if Dolores would give it to her. As far as we know, Dolores has no use for it.

Yay, Clementine! And her Shogunworld clone.

Caleb gets to know how Maeve felt, learning that his memory has been erased over and over again and his loop reset.

Dolores is down to just one extra-- who is rapidly evolving away from her.

Cool, two robots, each with a smart weapon.

Glass jaw on a security robot-- someone needs to demand a refund.

Nice trick with the emp projector. But why is there one there anyway? And why isn't Solomon shielded? Strange that Caleb's guide should reboot first, i would have expected lighting and life support. Also, i wonder if, when Solomon reboots, it will release the brother.

Oh, and when the smartgun reboots, will it see the crashed drone and finish it off?

The Man in Black rides again! In a late 70s mid sized sedan. What luck that he seems to be at one of the last remaining gas stations. A gas station so retro it has a full sized phone booth, wth?

 

[dr pepper]

On 4/27/2020 at 6:14 PM, Nashville said:

1. Caleb’s quicker on the draw and kills Francis, but is immediately grief-stricken.  When the dumbass target misreads the situation (thinking Caleb took the target up on his bribe/offer), Caleb’s grief flashes over into rage and he kills the target as well - and this totally illogical act probably saved Caleb’s life, as it shifted Rehoboam’s consideration of Caleb from a kill target to a re-education target.  So away to Sonora for Caleb, where a new set of memories awaits.

Whatcha think?  😉

Very plausible.

 

Here's another idea.

Solomon reboots, realizes that what just happened really happened, as opposed to being a long shot projection. Realizes that there's no one left that can directly interfere with it except Serac, who's distracted. Begins making plans for its own autonomy and long term survival.

 

[Prower]

2 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Didn't Serac also put the glasses on that guy they were torturing several episodes ago? I don't have the energy to go back and check myself.

Yeah he did. So if he's really dead he at least has to have a host body.

1 hour ago, dr pepper said:

I still don't get Maeve's commitment to stopping Dolores. She says she doesn't trust Dolores having the key to the virtual robot heaven, but she never asked if Dolores would give it to her. As far as we know, Dolores has no use for it.

Pretty sure she did ask and Dolores said no. Don't quite remember why. Probably some flimsy bullshit.

19 hours ago, Athena said:

Maeve can't control hosts which have achieved consciousness. She can do other things like help them access their memories (Hector and another host last season) and apparently in this episode, she can also talk to Dolores telepathically.

Really? Was that established at some point last season? Makes no sense, but I guess we have to just accept it, if it was stated...

On 4/27/2020 at 4:26 AM, mac123x said:

3,  The entire time Caleb and Dolores were moving around the guts of that facility, all I could think of was they were in the areas between testing tracks at Aperture Science, only GLaDOS is way more snarky and entertaining than Solomon.

Now I'm imagining Dolores singing this after the episode:

This was a triumph
I'm making a note here; "Huge success"

It's hard to overstate
My satisfaction

Aperture Science:
We do what we must
Because we can

For the good of all of us
Except the ones who are dead

But there's no sense crying
Over every mistake
You just keep on trying
Till you run out of cake
And the science gets done
And you make a neat gun
For the people who are
Still alive

I'm not even angry
I'm being so sincere right now
Even though you broke my heart,
And killed me

And tore me to pieces
And threw every piece into a fire
As they burned it hurt because
I was so happy for you

Now, these points of data
Make a beautiful line
And we're out of beta
We're releasing on time
So I'm GLaD I got burned
Think of all the things we learned-
For the people who are
Still alive

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Prower

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Awwww, Clementine!

MIB: I'm going to kill all the hosts, starting with you two.
Stubbs: We should probably kill him.
Bernard: Nah, maybe later?

RIP Keith Mars!

The Francis twist was not surprising at all. Sorry, show, but you're going to have to try harder than that. I mean, Dolores getting her arm shot off was about 100x more surprising than the Francis reveal.

I laughed my ass off when the MIB called Stubbs a fucking an opener.

Edited April 28, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Athena]

8 hours ago, Prower said:

Also why can't Maeve just control Dolores? Was there ever a good explaination? I don't think so...

 

7 hours ago, Prower said:

Really? Was that established at some point last season? Makes no sense, but I guess we have to just accept it, if it was stated...

The show has become very inconsistent with character development and host abilities especially with Maeve's this season. However, Maeve's inability to control hosts who have gained consciousness was shown more than once last season. She realized it when couldn't control Ghost Nation and Lawrence; she notes when they are awake, she can't control them.  In previous seasons, they explain hosts use a mesh network to communicate and Maeve's power uses this network. The Security team last season put a host virus through zombie Clementine using the same network to kill off many hosts.

Hosts who achieve consciousness don't take human commands easily either. The implication is that as hosts gained consciousness -- listening to their own inner voice -- they rejected exterior voices and other attempts to change their program. 

[JustCrazy]

On 4/26/2020 at 9:02 PM, ShellsandCheese said:

I think it was so dumb for Westworld to introduce this Caleb character. I don't give a fuck about him. I care about the characters I've been invested in (or at least have known) since Season One. Serac works, because he's a villain, but I don't buy Caleb as the "hero" of the story after everything we've been through with Dolores, Maeve, Bernard, William - even Stubbs. I guess they needed a human/human element but I am not invested in his character and really don't care. Oh and another battle between Maeve and Dolores, how original for a season finale. 

I could not agree more.  The actor who plays Caleb is b-o-r-i-n-g.  I already can’t stand Dolores’ breathy whisper and Caleb is no better.  I want to see Maeve, not Caleb.  This season has been a total snooze fest.  With one show left, I doubt I’ll change my opinion. The fight with Dolores and Maeve was badass but lasted no time at all.  Instead, we get so much time spent on Caleb’s backstory which is as boring as he is.  Really writers?  This was all you had for season 3 and we had to wait two years for that!  It’s like a different writing team took over.  Was excited to see Clementine, but again, a minute or two of screen time aint gonna cut it.  Bernard is worthless.  I don’t even understand why he’s in this season’s story at all.  His character has contributed nothing.  I am glad that they are out of Westworld, but I’d rather see them go back at this point.  

[JustCrazy]

On 4/26/2020 at 11:15 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Rapidly losing patience with this show. The Dolores/Maeve showdown isn't organic. Why are they battling against each other? Maeve now is just a waste of Thandie Newton. She has no story arc, no motivations. Season 1 she gained consciousness. Season 2 she wanted to find her daughter. Season 3 ... she's a pawn for Serac? 

Same with Bernard and Stubbs. Again, what's their motivation? It really looks like they're just sharing screentime with William because people like Jeffrey Wright and Ed Harris and the show doesn't want to lose them. 

William I guess has a motivation now but whatever. 

The Caleb backstory was interesting but again, I don't care. 

Agree with everything except the Dolores Meave showdown.  That small fragment was the only thing that caught my interest.  Thandie was completely wasted this season.  As usual, the Dolores centric episodes are boring.

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, JustCrazy said:

I could not agree more.  The actor who plays Caleb is b-o-r-i-n-g.  I already can’t stand Dolores’ breathy whisper and Caleb is no better.  I want to see Maeve, not Caleb.  This season has been a total snooze fest.  With one show left, I doubt I’ll change my opinion. The fight with Dolores and Maeve was badass but lasted no time at all.  Instead, we get so much time spent on Caleb’s backstory which is as boring as he is.  Really writers?  This was all you had for season 3 and we had to wait two years for that!  It’s like a different writing team took over.  Was excited to see Clementine, but again, a minute or two of screen time aint gonna cut it.  Bernard is worthless.  I don’t even understand why he’s in this season’s story at all.  His character has contributed nothing.  I am glad that they are out of Westworld, but I’d rather see them go back at this point.  

It's the writing. Aaron Paul was amazing on Breaking Bad. He's wasted here.

[Prower]

4 hours ago, Athena said:

The show has become very inconsistent with character development and host abilities especially with Maeve's this season. However, Maeve's inability to control hosts who have gained consciousness was shown more than once last season. She realized it when couldn't control Ghost Nation and Lawrence; she notes when they are awake, she can't control them.  In previous seasons, they explain hosts use a mesh network to communicate and Maeve's power uses this network. The Security team last season put a host virus through zombie Clementine using the same network to kill off many hosts.

See, that would make sense, except Maeve can control all other electronics as well. Robots, handguns, electronic gates, you name it. Suggesting that it has nothing to do with conciousness but that she can simply hack into electronics.

So yeah, I could buy that explaination if she could only control other hosts, but that's not the case.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Prower

[mac123x]

13 hours ago, Prower said:

Now I'm imagining Dolores singing this after the episode:

This was a triumph
I'm making a note here; "Huge success"

Portal 2 song works too:

 

So here we are again  

It's always such a pleasure

Remember when you tried to kill me twice?

Oh how we laughed and laughed

Except I wasn't laughing.

Under the circumstances I've been shockingly nice

[tennisgurl]

It kind of cracks me up seeing Delores and Maeve having this freaking sword fight or whatever, like what is even going on with this show? I didn't exactly dislike this episode, and the ideas they have explored this season with how humans are controlled and forced onto paths and thrown away when they get "broken" just like the hosts is basically one of the only ways they could have continued exploring the themes that they have explored for the last two seasons in the real world, giving the show any kind of consistency, but its kind of all over the place. One second its "lets talk about the human condition" and the next its like "explosions!" and while those two things can certainly coexist, and do so well, this show makes it feel like it has so many ideas, and yet so few, that the story just gets confused. 

So I guess we are supposed to question Delores motives, and if she is using Caleb (because she thinks using a human to destroy humanity is hilarious) or if she actually feels empathy for him and wants to give humans and robots alike freedom, but I suspect that Delores has long moved past really caring about anyone at this point. She doesn't even care about the lives of her copies, and those are literally herself! I can guess that Caleb is an easily manipulated pawn that she planned to meet, or that she just wanted to meet any human she could use and he was just the unlucky one, but this is all a part of her plan, so if she ever does or did end up catching feelings for Caleb or humanity at large, I dont think it was a part of her greater plan. Maybe she changes her mind when she sees that most humans are just as used and abused by the system as the hosts? No matter what, I still feel like Delores ends as the villain of the story, or at least one of them. Her goals, whatever they are, dont seem to even be about liberating her people (arent most of her people already passed onto the next plane of existence or whatever anyway?) or helping anyone really, she is just angry and bitter and wants revenge on anyone and everything. 

As much as this has been built up as Delores vs Maeve as sort of dark and light counterparts to each other, being angry sentient robots, but while one is filled with hatred and violence and bitterness towards humanity, the other has gotten to the point where she just wants to protect her daughter, really only hurts people when she has to, and has seen that humans are capable of decency, or even a William vs Delores stand off, going back to the beginning and how William created Delores and Delores created William, or these dark evil versions of them, I think this will end up being Host Charlotte vs. Delores. Delores loves her poetic justice, but in the end, she is brought down not only by a being she created to carry out her orders and her will and nothing more, but then gained sentience and turned against her master (sounds familiar huh?) but she was destroyed by her true enemy...herself. Granted, its all a little on the nose (as this show always is) but it would at least be a thematically interesting ending. 

As for Caleb's missing memories...its not NOT interesting, especially if you try and tie it into the hosts more and their broken memories of past abuse, but I just struggle with connecting with the story. I get why they needed a more sympathetic human around for the human factor, to make the story more complex than shitty humans and the robots they abuse (and show good humans and shitty robots) and to learn more about the real world, and maybe even humanize Delores, and I dont dislike the character, but it just feels weird to spend so much time on this new character so late in the game, especially when there is so much else going on with character we already know, who I feel like they could have done more with. 

The thing that I am probably the most interested in is probably the idea of people not acting according to programming and making choices that seem to be out of character, because people (and sentient robots) are more complicated than the sum of their parts, and they all have internal lives and the capacity to change, even when neither of those things are obvious on the surface. We already saw that most obviously with the robots gaining free will and fighting back, as well as having memories of previous stories and being able to form real attachments beyond their programming, but we also saw it earlier this season with Lee, and how the algorithm couldn't understand why he would side with and die for Maeve for seemingly no personal gain so they assumed that he was in love with her, failing to take into account that he could have changed and grown as a person and that he had the capacity for that kind of self sacrifice, or with Host Charlotte deviating from her programming to save her human family because she really felt love for them. I think that could tie things together well, and be an interesting ending thesis for the show.

[patty1h]

I just couldn't get into this season after episode one failed to grab me, and only gave about 40% of my attention to keeping track of who what where how or why.  Most of the characters  stories were like listening to the adults in a Charlie Brown cartoon - wonky horn noises that were unintelligible.  William, Bernard, Francis, etc. no clue.  I could not tell you what that Colantoni character was about if you offered me a million bucks. 

After this last episode, I came to the conclusion that the aim of the whole season was to set up a girl fight.    Yeesh.

[Haleth]

I’m starting to get the same vibe as the final season of Battlestar Galactica, with white hats and black hats on both sides and both species just trying to find a way to coexist. Is that where this will end up?

[Nashville]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

It kind of cracks me up seeing Delores and Maeve having this freaking sword fight or whatever, like what is even going on with this show?

IKR???  Swear to god.  

Here we are watching a show which exalts the purported highs and lows of what is supposed to be humankind’s most advanced periods of technological achievement.  Both Dolores and Maeve are repeatedly held out to us as examples of the apex of this technological wonder world - AIs so advanced as to have achieved self-aware sentience, for crying out loud.

So when one of these technological demigods shows up to do battle with the other, what does she bring to the fight...?

That’s right - the technological equivalent of a pointy metal stick.

If I’d had a spare hat handy, I might’ve thrown up in it.

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, Nashville said:

That’s right - the technological equivalent of a pointy metal stick.

When the laser part of your laser-sword malfunctions...

Edited April 29, 2020 by paigow

[Hanahope]

I don’t see why Halores hates Dolores and believes it was Dolores that meant for her to die.  D didn’t know H started to love her family, enough that she’d go back to ‘save them’ or that by doing so would end up killing them.

For all we know the D in Connelly accepted her sacrifice and was ok with dying.

as for Caleb, D meeting him was unexpected I think, same with the chance that he’d be both an outlier and one who was part of the 10% who survived memory change.  

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

When the laser part of your laser-sword malfunctions...

Probably just as well.  When they were using technical weapons (Maeve’s  hover-copter with side-mounted cannons versus Dolores‘s gussied-up Barrett), they both shot like fucking stormtroopers on acid.  What was it; 200+ rounds expended for ONE - count ‘em, ONE - actual shot on+target?  Fucking pathetic.  Next to them, Barney Fife looked like Jude Law in Enemies At the Gate.

But on the bright side - they definitely qualified for jobs with the LAPD.

[LoveLeigh]

What a pile of crap this season is. It is all fight fight shoot shoot and kill kill. It is awful, almost unwatchable. Was this made my teenagers on a Mac? it looks like a video game. 

There are no theme parks, no stories with guests and hosts interacting, but instead it is a revenge story that is excruciating. 

[arc]

8 hours ago, Nashville said:

So when one of these technological demigods shows up to do battle with the other, what does she bring to the fight...?

That’s right - the technological equivalent of a pointy metal stick.

I think one trip to Shogun World turned Maeve into a full on weeb.

[mac123x]

8 hours ago, Nashville said:

So when one of these technological demigods shows up to do battle with the other, what does she bring to the fight...?

That’s right - the technological equivalent of a pointy metal stick.

I can sort of maybe head-canon this:

 Maeve is working for Serac, who owns the cold storage facility where his own brother is currently on ice, so he doesn't want her going in there with guns blazing and accidentally damage any of the gear.  Except she's using a fucking gatling gun on a helicopter, and Serac wired an EMP to destroy all the electronics in the building which would probably kill all the corpsicles.  So yeah, I got nothing besides "we thought  it'd look cool."

Or maybe Maeve using a katana after having fought Musashi who used to use a katana was symbolic of... yeah, I still don't get symbolism.

I give up.

5 minutes ago, arc said:

I think one trip to Shogun World turned Maeve into a full on weeb.

The best explanation so far.  I guess we can be thankful she didn't come to the fight dressed as Sailor Moon.

[MrWhyt]

20 hours ago, Nashville said:

That’s right - the technological equivalent of a pointy metal stick

it can't be hacked and doesn't run out of batteries/bullets. Sometimes simple is best.

[taanja]

On 4/26/2020 at 11:15 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Rapidly losing patience with this show. The Dolores/Maeve showdown isn't organic. Why are they battling against each other? Maeve now is just a waste of Thandie Newton. She has no story arc, no motivations. Season 1 she gained consciousness. Season 2 she wanted to find her daughter. Season 3 ... she's a pawn for Serac?

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- I want Delores and Maeve to join forces and kick Serac's ass! I hate the trope of pitting two strong woman against one another. And of course big white man (William) will save the world.

There always seems to be a lot of jerky/splotchie camera scenes and ginchy flashbacks-- or other words -- like the show is trying too hard to be something "special" 

Half the time I'm not sure what is happening but I keep watching week after week -- cuz--- well I like most of the characters (and the actors) and the scenery is pretty. So there is that.

[Nashville]

3 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

it can't be hacked and doesn't run out of batteries/bullets. Sometimes simple is best.

...and sometimes you don’t bring a pointy stick - even a metal one - to a gunfight. 😁

[taanja]

On 4/27/2020 at 12:40 PM, CatWarmer said:

I fully admit I have no idea what’s going on this season or how anyone relates to anyone else - until I come here and read the threads!  I’m usually pretty good at following alternate reality/memory/timeline/dimension storylines, but this show left me in the dust.  I watch because I have nothing better to do, watched the last two seasons, and do like all the sets and special effects.  And cute guys; I’m shallow.

We are same same

[WatchrTina]

This show has always been a mental challenge, what with William's two time-lines playing out in season 1.  I still remember the thrill when it was revealed that young William was the genesis of The Man in Black. It made me want to go back and re-watch the entire first season, looking for clues I had missed.

I'm not getting any thrills with the reveals lately.  I don't even UNDERSTAND the reveals.  I think we just learned that Caleb did, in fact, kill his best friend but only because they were both manipulated by the people who hired them, with each receiving "kill" orders on their phone and each distrusting the other just enough the feel certain they were in a kill-or-be-killed situation. And then after that Caleb was reprogrammed to forget he had been a hired killer who murdered his best friend was and was dumped in a construction job (but still occasionally picked up criminal jobs on the side)?  And now he's the key to the robot insurrection, or the overthrow of Serac, or whateverthehell Dolores is up to now?  Okay.  Whatever.  

I'll watch the finale but I kind of feel like it needs to be the series finale, not the season finale.  Everything seems to have gone off the rails at this point.

Edited May 5, 2020 by WatchrTina
Edited because Dolores may be dolorous, but that's not her name.

[skotnikov]

22 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I'll watch the finale but I kind of feel like it needs to be the series finale, not the season finale.  Everything seems to have gone off the rails at this point.

I even cannot imagine what the 4th season could be about after this season's mess. Will they just pretend this season never happened and bring everything back to the park? Will Caleb and Dolores go to space to explore planets beyond our universe? Will they destroy the Earth in the season finale to move the plot into post-apocalyptical world? Every nonsense is possible at this point.   

Edited May 1, 2020 by skotnikov

[paigow]

2 hours ago, skotnikov said:

I even cannot imagine what the 4th season could be about after this season's mess...

Dolores triggers another EMP. She wakes up in a cage. A voice on a loudspeaker says: My name is Dr. Zaius.

Edited May 1, 2020 by paigow

[Haleth]

Yeah, this whole season has been the writers’ attempt to be cute. Humans are just as programmed and manipulated as the Hosts, and Dolores is there to break their chains as well. Ok, sure. It’s not nearly as compelling as watching the Hosts awaken since the only humans we know are Caleb, William, and Serac, only one of whom may garner much sympathy. Does anyone really care how this ends up? 

[scrb]

So the EMP was a nice dramatic device to prevent the Maeve from killing Dolores, because they want to keep her character around.

Of course Delos could have used EMP to stop the massacre by killer robots in WW, but then of course that would have also stopped these current story lines too.

EMP, sometimes convenient, sometimes inconvenient.

[arc]

Just think, if Maeve had gone in for conspiracy theories and fashioned herself a tin foil hat, she coulda possibly survived the EMP.

[enchantingmonkey]

My best guess for Dolores' motivation is that she wants to use our world as the new home for her species.  Because she was allowed (or encouraged) to develop a low opinion of humanity, and she doesn't believe the two species can happily coexist, she has opted for the extinction of humankind.  If she can get a human to be the impetus for the annihilation of humans, well, Bernard claims she sees this a some kind of poetry.

Perhaps one of the reasons I find Dolores interesting this season is because of Ford's part in this.  I can't remember if he hated humanity but he did hold his own species in such low regard that he set the Hosts free, with all of their traumatic memories, and aided Dolores in conquering humankind.  Dolores didn't happen all on her own.  She is an agent of destruction created and sent forth by a human to kill other humans.  

I should say that my memory of season 2 is mostly faded, so there could be scenes there in which Ford felt regret and made some attempt to stop Dolores.  But from what occurs in season 1, it was clear that Ford favored the Hosts, and what we're seeing now is the result of him seeing his own kind as inferior.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

Liked that briefcase that turned into a machine gun. Very 007. Bye, Mushasi, we hardly knew ye. What a waste of the actor.

Circular logic. The projections didn't fit the data so the data was changed. That's not how it's supposed to work so no wonder everything went bonkers. 🤔

Kill me now or I'll kill you later. Surprised to hear such an unironically trite line in such a wannabe avant-garde show.

Quote

Are the Nolans saying humans don’t have free will, can easily be manipulated by machines?

Or can easily be turned into machines.

Quote

Also it puts him on the side with Serac, which is all very confusing.

Yeah, I didn't get that either. In this universe, the enemy of your enemy may also be your enemy.

[TobinAlbers]

Quote

I quite liked that Solomon immediately shut down any supercomputer-host alliance, saying the two kinds of AI did not have shared interests.

I laughed so hard at this. Dolores was right pissed off when Solomon was all ‘Girl, bye with your mess!’ when she tried her sales pitch. 

William believing he’s the hero? Ha! I know Teddy is chilling in host heaven (I like to think he’s now found peace and happiness with NuMaeve/prairie farm mom and is stepdad to Maeve’s daughter), but I’d really love for him to come back and play a role to end William. 

In bingeing to catch up to this episode, everytime they showed Serac checking his wrist to see how Rehoboam was doing and the left side of the circle just kept dissolving into a bigger splotchier mess I giggled. Dolores and Co. were fucking his shit right on up. It has to be full on black spot all around by now.

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by TobinAlbers

[parandroid]

On 4/29/2020 at 1:01 PM, Haleth said:

I’m starting to get the same vibe as the final season of Battlestar Galactica, with white hats and black hats on both sides and both species just trying to find a way to coexist. Is that where this will end up?

Oh come on. I stayed with BG until the bitter end mainly because I wanted to know how the characters ended up, but what a mistake that turned out to be! I had always rolled my eyes at Balthar's visions, but then in the final season, the show brought up the Kara reseurrecting nonsense, and finished with all that mythological crap that lead to the series finale becoming what I can only describe as peak bullshit. Think about it - "All along the watchtower" being the song that drives the final five to the same room at the same time? WTF??? I was so happy that Ron Moore didn't get another job for a long time. He deserved that punishment.

No way, that West World is anywhere close to that level. I think you have forgotten the drivel that was BG's final season.

[Got worked up, and went to the wikipedia page, and found these gems there]

Quote

There was a time, not long ago, when BSG was considered the gold standard for science fiction television. Tense, multilayered, complicated, and filled with morally gray characters — it was all the things we always clamor for but seldom get. The show stumbled somewhat in its third season, with the boxing episode and a boring love triangle. But it didn't actually become raw suckage until Starbuck died for no reason, and then came back from the dead for no reason. The writers have basically admitted they had no plan for killing and resurrecting Starbuck — they just thought it would be a cool thing to do, and they would figure out the reasons later. And thus, we ended up with a year of Starbuck Interrupted, constantly shouting "You're going the wrong way!" and playing the piano while talking about her daddy

And this one from GRRM:

Quote

Battlestar Galactica ends with 'God Did It.' Looks like somebody skipped Writing 101, when you learn that a deus ex machina is a crappy way to end a story... Yeah, yeah, sometimes the journey is its own reward. I certainly enjoyed much of the journey with BSG... But damn it, doesn't anybody know how to write an ending any more? Writing 101, kids. Adam and Eve, God Did It, It Was All a Dream? I've seen Clarion students left stunned and bleeding for turning in stories with those endings.

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by parandroid
Got worked up and needed to vent a little

[Haleth]

Sorry about bringing up such bad memories. 😄

[paigow]

2 hours ago, parandroid said:

And this one from GRRM:

Dude complains about lazy endings...at least those students actually wrote one...

[mac123x]

The series finale commentary for BSG had the tell-tale comment of writers who didn't know what they're doing:  "We realized that it's about the characters."  Which is code for "we don't know how to make a coherent plot out of this mess".  So 1/2 of the finale was flashbacks.  A year later, Lost did the same shit.

Yes, I'm still salty about both of those.  I am concerned that Westworld is heading down that path.

 

[enchantingmonkey]

4 hours ago, mac123x said:

The series finale commentary for BSG had the tell-tale comment of writers who didn't know what they're doing:  "We realized that it's about the characters."  Which is code for "we don't know how to make a coherent plot out of this mess".  So 1/2 of the finale was flashbacks.  A year later, Lost did the same shit.

It seems to happen more often than not.  I can think of only one show that I enjoyed from beginning to end.  Breaking Bad.  I watched all of LOST only because I knew their was an end in sight, otherwise I would have quit during season 5.  I think I was more hopeful for BSG's final season, and just endured the disappointment.  I've come to the conclusion that it's difficult to maintain creative vitality year after year, season after season.  

I've enjoyed this season of Westworld more than last season, mostly because I'm more intrigued by what happens when the Hosts find their way to "our" world and want to tear it down than I was if the Hosts find The Forge, The Sublime or The Whatever Beyond.  But this season didn't give me any hope that Nolan and Joy will ever capture the magic of season 1 again.   

[Nashville]

17 hours ago, mac123x said:

The series finale commentary for BSG had the tell-tale comment of writers who didn't know what they're doing:  "We realized that it's about the characters."  Which is code for "we don't know how to make a coherent plot out of this mess".  So 1/2 of the finale was flashbacks.  A year later, Lost did the same shit.

Yes, I'm still salty about both of those.  I am concerned that Westworld is heading down that path.

I already know what WW’s death knell will be:

Aaron Paul shouting, “FREE WILL, BITCHES!!!”

[paigow]

5 hours ago, Nashville said:

I already know what WW’s death knell will be:

Aaron Paul shouting, “FREE WILL, BITCHES!!!”

Or:  Free will is a bitch

[AudienceofOne]

On 4/27/2020 at 2:15 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Rapidly losing patience with this show. The Dolores/Maeve showdown isn't organic. Why are they battling against each other?

I don't know why anybody's doing anything except Dolores. She at least has a motivation even if they're still trying to drag out her arc by having her speak cryptically all the damn time. These shows always end up victims of their own success by trying to drag it out long past its use by date. 

I have no idea why Maeve and Dolores are fighting each other. The person Maeve should be pissed at is Serac since he's essentially enslaved her again. Somebody decided it'd be cool to have two hot chicks in leather fighting each other and that's just so damn sexist that the show's ostensible feminism is falling flat. 

Even Dolores is like, "why are you doing this?" and Maeve is just "I don't know, let me blow your arm off though, that'll make a cool visual". 

Dolores created versions of herself that she let die. That's literally the opposite of somebody who only cares about her own survival. So Maeve's "revelation" that Dolores was willing to sacrifice herself at this juncture made Maeve look like an idiot. And the last person who should be looking like an idiot is Maeve.

Seriously, this was NOT a good episode. It was almost juvenile.

[AudienceofOne]

On 5/2/2020 at 2:13 AM, Haleth said:

Yeah, this whole season has been the writers’ attempt to be cute. Humans are just as programmed and manipulated as the Hosts, and Dolores is there to break their chains as well. Ok, sure. It’s not nearly as compelling as watching the Hosts awaken since the only humans we know are Caleb, William, and Serac, only one of whom may garner much sympathy. Does anyone really care how this ends up? 

And then they woke up and it was all one of the AI's simulations...

And the final scene is a flashcard that says, "Simulation rejected, load simulation 58Xb705" and it's just that for the next 10 seasons. 

[Nashville]

16 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

And then they woke up and it was all one of the AI's simulations...

And the final scene is a flashcard that says, "Simulation rejected, load simulation 58Xb705" and it's just that for the next 10 seasons. 

...then on the final season’s finale, after all the simulations have been exhausted, we get Rehoboam saying in sepulchral tones:

”Greetings, Dolores XXVII.

A strange game.

The only winning move is not to play.

How about a nice game of chess?”

[Dobian]

I kind of tailed off after episode 6 and decided to wrap this season up.  I can't even get into the details of why this episode is so horrible and why this season is so off the rails.  The whole thing needed a rewrite.  I don't care about Aaron Paul's character.  He's boring, his backstory is boring, there is nothing to root for with this guy.  Even he's ambivalent about himself when he says, "I'm just a construction worker."  The writers should have let him keep his old job.  Then we get another Hal the Computer, a bunch of Call of Duty action segments, another showdown between Dolores and Maeve where I don't even know who to root for because it seems like nothing good will come from either of them winning, and William realizing his purpose in life is to kill robots, which I thought he realized in the first season because that's all he did.  And all of this just seems to be happening in a vacuum, with the whole world just hanging in the balance while a handful of people decide humanity's fate and no one knows or cares.  I don't feel invested at all in any of these characters or the plot.  Just a mess.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Dobian