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S01.E06: Opposing Forces

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23 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Call me crazy, but those whacky designs on a runway by regular designers are usually modified in some way to be accessible for purchase, right?

I would hope so, right?

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37 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

But the whole concept of this show is to sell their design on Amazon and I'm assuming he knew that going in.  No one is going to buy his runway stuff on a mass market level because it's not wearable.  

Call me crazy, but those whacky designs on a runway by regular designers are usually modified in some way to be accessible for purchase, right?

Because if famous designers have to have their crazy stuff modified to be accessible, seems like Sander shouldn't be complaining b/c that is a key aspect of fashion design.

I think that's the perspective on which I understand and appreciate sander.  Fashion needs these super cutting edge, pushing the envelope, avant garde, conceptual designers so that someone can water down the look and commercialize it a million different ways, until an average normal sized schmo like me can wear it.  

Is this the show for him?  No.  But I appreciate him. I think it would be up to a more commercial designer to translate his ideas into something wearable.  But I love that he is passionate about his big bold ideas ...even though I'd agree that this isn't the show for it. 

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11 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I think that's the perspective on which I understand and appreciate sander.  Fashion needs these super cutting edge, pushing the envelope, avant garde, conceptual designers so that someone can water down the look and commercialize it a million different ways, until an average normal sized schmo like me can wear it.  

Is this the show for him?  No.  But I appreciate him. I think it would be up to a more commercial designer to translate his ideas into something wearable.  But I love that he is passionate about his big bold ideas ...even though I'd agree that this isn't the show for it. 

I guess for me, he's able to do just that -- he can make the super cutting edge, pushing the envelope, avant garde runway look.  They are giving him that creativity.  He just has to make the water-downed version that can be commercialized.  As a designer, isn't that what you're hoping for -- that your look will be sold and bought by the masses?  I don't think a designer can live off a couple celebrities wearing the super cutting edge, pushing the envelope, avant garde look alone unless Lady Gaga wears his stuff every day.  He has to be able to commercialize his work, so to me, I don't get his bitching when he has one look to go wild and crazy on.  He's not forced to only make something accessible.   

I kind of think he's playing the reality TV show quasi-villian role though.

Edited by sasha206
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1 hour ago, sasha206 said:

He just has to make the water-downed version that can be commercialized. 

I’m pretty sure that designers (or the corporations that own their names) have junior staff that do the ‘dumbing down’ of their runway looks. You know Michael Kors isn’t bothering with that crap they sell at Macy’s lol. Sander just doesn’t see the need to dilute his vision; I like it that he’s giving the big middle finger to TPTB at Amazon and MTC.

Edited by StrictTime
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1 hour ago, StrictTime said:

I’m pretty sure that designers (or the corporations that own their names) have junior staff that do the ‘dumbing down’ of their runway looks. You know Michael Kors isn’t bothering with that crap they sell at Macy’s lol. Sander just doesn’t see the need to dilute his vision; I like it that he’s giving the big middle finger to TPTB at Amazon and MTC.

Yes, I get that.    But the show Sander  signed up for is asking for 2 looks, one watered down look.  The show that is going to pay him $1M to win.  So I hope if he can't manage to adhere to premise that TPTB give him the middle finger and not award him with the win.

Not to mention if you go on his own site, he's got some wild shit and some stuff that looks pretty accessible.

I feel the same way for the designers that can't design in anything that isn't black.  Or only drape fabric.  Or only use leather.  If you don't want to win $1M, you do you.  If you think you can be successful based on the fame of the show itself, great.  But don't have the tears flowing if you end up in 2nd place b/c you're inflexible.

 

Edited by sasha206
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Just now, sasha206 said:

But the show he signed up for is asking for 2 looks, one watered down look.  The show that is going to pay him $1M to win.  So I hope if he can't manage to adhere to premise that TPTB give him the middle finger and not award him with the win.

All I can think is that he wasn't good enough to get onto a show that is more about fashion and he's bitter to be stuck on the 'commercial' show. 

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Runway looks by major designers are usually changed a bit when celebs wear them on the red carpet.  Fashion Police used to do a lot of comparisons between the two looks, and the runway looks were usually extremely exaggerated in some manner, styled in crazy ways, etc.  

Sander is probably on the show hoping that some assistant to some buyer will watch & tell some assistant to some stylist about the cool designs by this guy and Naomi Campbell complimented it, so maybe they can put one of his designs on a C-list starlet opening a new movie.

Edited by leighdear
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On 4/13/2020 at 5:49 PM, StrictTime said:

IAnd he’s right—he shouldn’t have to make an accessible look if he doesn’t want to.

Then why is he on this show? When that is literally asked of every designer to make a accessible look with every challenge? If he doesn’t have to why have it at all? I mean could you imagine designers going no I don’t like that part of the competition I’m not going to do that and the judges going sure why not?  It’s coming across has really bratty. Amazon isn’t going to give you a million dollars if they can’t sell your brand and part of that is making it commercial and more accessible to a wider audience. 

Edited by Keywestclubkid
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1 hour ago, Keywestclubkid said:

Then why is he on this show? When that is literally asked of every designer to make a accessible look with every challenge? If he doesn’t have to why have it at all? I mean could you imagine designers going no I don’t like that part of the competition I’m not going to do that and the judges going sure why not?

That would be the worst reality show ever. "Contestants, we want you to do A, B and C" 

Contestant 1: "I don't want to do A or C but I'll do B"

Contestant 2: "Well B is beneath me so I'll do A and you will love it so much I won't need to do anything else"

Contestant 3: "Well, if they aren't doing them all then I'm not going to do them all either."

Judge: "well, guess the show is over then. Bye"

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I don't think sander has or had any real intention of winning this.  And I'm personally fine with that.  Yeah, it's a competition, but, if there is one thing we've seen with these shows it is that there are different ways to "win"

I cannot even remember that guy's name.... Michael something from project runway, who was treated horribly and never won a thing IIRC.  But he designed Beyonce's dress for the Met gala and he designs for a bunch of celebrities now.  

I'd argue that THAT, was more of a win and a more meaningful "win" than the 250k and Lexus lease.  

By having a venue to show his art to the world, that may be enough for sander.  That someone influential will see his crazy creativity, his ideas, his vision, the forward thinking of his designs and recognize that may be worth it instead of making outfits he considers boring, so he can get a million dollars and become Amazon's indentured servant.  

If he doesn't want to make commercial clothing, that contract with Amazon is also not a great for for him. But I'm happy to see clothing that is wild, and not just Martha "where can I put this bow" wild, but like "huh, that design is bananas, but it's very conceptual"

 

4 hours ago, Keywestclubkid said:

Then why is he on this show? When that is literally asked of every designer to make a accessible look with every challenge? If he doesn’t have to why have it at all? I mean could you imagine designers going no I don’t like that part of the competition I’m not going to do that and the judges going sure why not?  It’s coming across has really bratty. Amazon isn’t going to give you a million dollars if they can’t sell your brand and part of that is making it commercial and more accessible to a wider audience. 

But then that's the fault of the judges.  He can decide to make whatever high concept design he can dream up.  And they can decide to drop him. If he is getting away with designing high concept unsellable looks and he remains in the show......that's a failure of the judges.  

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9 hours ago, RealReality said:

I don't think sander has or had any real intention of winning this.  And I'm personally fine with that.  Yeah, it's a competition, but, if there is one thing we've seen with these shows it is that there are different ways to "win"

I cannot even remember that guy's name.... Michael something from project runway, who was treated horribly and never won a thing IIRC.  But he designed Beyonce's dress for the Met gala and he designs for a bunch of celebrities now.  

I'd argue that THAT, was more of a win and a more meaningful "win" than the 250k and Lexus lease.  

By having a venue to show his art to the world, that may be enough for sander.  That someone influential will see his crazy creativity, his ideas, his vision, the forward thinking of his designs and recognize that may be worth it instead of making outfits he considers boring, so he can get a million dollars and become Amazon's indentured servant.  

If he doesn't want to make commercial clothing, that contract with Amazon is also not a great for for him. But I'm happy to see clothing that is wild, and not just Martha "where can I put this bow" wild, but like "huh, that design is bananas, but it's very conceptual"

 

But then that's the fault of the judges.  He can decide to make whatever high concept design he can dream up.  And they can decide to drop him. If he is getting away with designing high concept unsellable looks and he remains in the show......that's a failure of the judges.  

Yes, I agree with your comments.  However...

Would you look at this?  A very accessible look on Sander's website for purchase.  So he's on a show playing the reality show villain who can't water down his designs for one accessible look while he's selling accessible looks on his website.

NewProject_10_1_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=15849

There are a lot of other accessible clothing on his site.  http://sanderbos.be/miss boss shop

Edited by sasha206

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18 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Yes, I agree with your comments.  However...

Would you look at this?  A very accessible look on Sander's website for purchase.  So he's on a show playing the reality show villain who can't water down his designs for one accessible look while he's selling accessible looks on his website.

NewProject_10_1_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=15849

There are a lot of other accessible clothing on his site.  http://sanderbos.be/miss boss shop

This from the person who was disparaging t-shirts as the lowest form of clothing? That dress is basically a long t-shirt.

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I don't care enough to re-watch this episode, but it seemed to me that at least part of the reason Sander was pissed off was because the show changed the rules mid-stream. First Tim declares several times, "This is not a sewing competition!" Then the show made the last two episodes sewing competitions. My impression was that Sander was saying that within the time restraints and lack of meaningful seamstress support as previously promised, a t-shirt was what he could churn out.

And boy howdy, that dress from his website is ugly.

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19 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

I don't care enough to re-watch this episode, but it seemed to me that at least part of the reason Sander was pissed off was because the show changed the rules mid-stream. First Tim declares several times, "This is not a sewing competition!" Then the show made the last two episodes sewing competitions. My impression was that Sander was saying that within the time restraints and lack of meaningful seamstress support as previously promised, a t-shirt was what he could churn out.

And boy howdy, that dress from his website is ugly.

I'd have to rewatch, but my impression was he's pissed that one of his accessible looks from the prior episode was considered not-accessible and he was annoyed to have to dumb down his designs even more.  I thought he specifically chose the t-shirt material as an f u to the judges like, "Okay, you want me to make accessible clothing?  I'll use t-shirt material because that's what the non-fashionable peasants wear."

I really don't remember him complaining about rules being changed midstream.

I do feel like this show started off trying not to be PR and then maybe a test audience said this is boring so they switched up the rules.

 

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10 hours ago, RealReality said:

I cannot even remember that guy's name.... Michael something from project runway, who was treated horribly and never won a thing IIRC.  But he designed Beyonce's dress for the Met gala and he designs for a bunch of celebrities now. 

Michael Costello from Season 8.

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2 hours ago, sasha206 said:

Yes, I agree with your comments.  However...

Would you look at this?  A very accessible look on Sander's website for purchase.  So he's on a show playing the reality show villain who can't water down his designs for one accessible look while he's selling accessible looks on his website.

NewProject_10_1_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=15849

There are a lot of other accessible clothing on his site.  http://sanderbos.be/miss boss shop

But I don't know sander isn't really a villain.  He was kind to sabato and that was a very easy villain moment. 

Those looks may be Sanders nod to the wearable but he may not want to be showing that to a national audience.  This is his moment in the sun and he so he wants to show these innovate conceptual designs.

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1 hour ago, RealReality said:

But I don't know sander isn't really a villain.  He was kind to sabato and that was a very easy villain moment. 

Those looks may be Sanders nod to the wearable but he may not want to be showing that to a national audience.  This is his moment in the sun and he so he wants to show these innovate conceptual designs.

You're right -- not a villain necessarily but one of those reality characters that you love to hate.  

Again, he has the ability to show innovative conceptual designs.  No one is infringing on his creativity by telling him he needs 1 accessible look out of 2.

1 hour ago, TexasGal said:

This dress is really cute.  His website is hard to navigate but I like the humor of him working at a fast food restaurant in the shots.

NewProject_12_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=1585900

Yes, that site is really hard to navigate.  I hope that with this viewing audience he gets, he uses some of that money to find a good web designer.

 

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10 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

You're right -- not a villain necessarily but one of those reality characters that you love to hate.  

Again, he has the ability to show innovative conceptual designs.  No one is infringing on his creativity by telling him he needs 1 accessible look out of 2.

Yes, that site is really hard to navigate.  I hope that with this viewing audience he gets, he uses some of that money to find a good web designer.

 

Yeah, but he doesnt seem to want to do that.  He may want to take this platform to only show cutting edge, conceptual looks.  Maybe he wants to use this platform to show what he thinks he can do best. 

They are on his website and he said he designed those dresses, but he also said that he works with others and does collaborations, so maybe some of his tamer works are the result of that.  I really don't know. It's fair to assume they are wholly his design, I'm just saying it could be possible. 

If sander is using this platform to show what he wants and the judges keep letting him do it, it's their fault, not his.  

LOL, I really like sander, so I guess his master plan to get me to dislike him failed. 

He was kind to sabato and he was crestfallen when rinat left.  He just seems like a very, very creative type and very young and idealistic.  I can appreciate that he has a passion for his art.  

Is he going to win a million bucks, no.  He doesn't deserve to, but I think both sander and I are cool with that.  

Edited by RealReality
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1 hour ago, TexasGal said:

This dress is really cute.  His website is hard to navigate but I like the humor of him working at a fast food restaurant in the shots.

NewProject_12_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=1585900

I'm sorry, that thing looks like a choir robe that got cut too short everywhere.  And if you look at the top center, you can see a thread sticking out.  It's horrible, just like the t-shirt thing.  He's a kid trying out different personalities on camera, from Bebe to Snidley Whiplash, and his designs are all over the place.  Maybe someday he'll figure it out. 

And honestly, when I see the name Sander, I instantly think of the beautifully tailored and classic designs by Jil Sander.  Some of her items have a little quirkiness, but they are so elegant to me.  

 

Edited by leighdear
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1 hour ago, RealReality said:

Yeah, but he doesnt seem to want to do that.  He may want to take this platform to only show cutting edge, conceptual looks.  Maybe he wants to use this platform to show what he thinks he can do best. 

They are on his website and he said he designed those dresses, but he also said that he works with others and does collaborations, so maybe some of his tamer works are the result of that.  I really don't know. It's fair to assume they are wholly his design, I'm just saying it could be possible. 

If sander is using this platform to show what he wants and the judges keep letting him do it, it's their fault, not his.  

LOL, I really like sander, so I guess his master plan to get me to dislike him failed. 

He was kind to sabato and he was crestfallen when rinat left.  He just seems like a very, very creative type and very young and idealistic.  I can appreciate that he has a passion for his art.  

Is he going to win a million bucks, no.  He doesn't deserve to, but I think both sander and I are cool with that.  

Ha, I don't dislike him but all of those designers that bitch and moan with the task they are being asked to do annoy me. 

Like Esther, if you can only design in one color, if designing in another solid color throws you off, how good of a designer can you actually be?  I mean, I understand it better when people complain about working with prints which can also be tricky.   But just a solid black color?  You can't design anything beyond that?  No one is asking that you change your actual brand outside of the show.  

If you are Sabato and everything you do is flowing draping fabric and you cannot step out of that aesthetic, are you really a great designer?  My God, he couldn't even do a streetwear outfit w/o having it be a flowing look!

I mean, I understand why they may have a certain aesthetic.  But I am also fairly certain that the major high fashion labels also have more than one aesthetic.  They don't just do black, just do flowy everything, they likely do  more than couture (which is what I hear Sander describing his fashion as and I see otherwise on his site).  If you can't design to meet a specific challenge, I think your inflexibility to do so makes people question your depth and range as a designer.  I'm more impressed with the designer who can take a bold print fabric and manipulate and design it to look chic or trendy; if that scares you, I question how good you are.  

They aren't signing a million dollar contract to change their actual brand/aesthetic. They're in a contest.

That said I think Sander is very talented and interesting, so my rant above was really for the Esthers and Sabatos.  

 

Edited by sasha206
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I've often found the designers' use of all black on previous Project Runway iterations annoying because I want to see things like seams and decoration which are rendered next to invisible during the runway shows, but I believe it was Altazurra who brought up a very good point about unrelieved black for a designer to use - since so much business is done online now, black is particularly hard to feature.

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The audience at the runway show seemed as enthusiastic to be there as if they were forced by gun point to attend.

Did not like the design with the background. Hard to see the clothing, even when they came all the way down the stairs.  Are they going to have a gimmick runway every episode?

The social influencer's runway dress looked like something one of the Real House Wives would wear.  

Tired of Tim and Heidi's excapades.  Even with Heidi and the social influencer this week.

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Sanders outfits were ugly imo.

The color combination and fabric just no. Brown and yellow?🤢 and the fabrics seemed not complementary. I think if Sander had done white or black instead of the yellow I might have like them.... But no just no it was ugly.

I think Sander picked the ugliest colors and fabric as a big FU to the judges.

I really feel like the judges were rewarding him more for following their advise then for the actual clothes.

Edited by Fireball

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On 5/25/2020 at 10:46 AM, Fireball said:

Sanders outfits were ugly imo.

The color combination and fabric just no. Brown and yellow?🤢 and the fabrics seemed not complementary. I think if Sander had done white or black instead of the yellow I might have like them.... But no just no it was ugly.

I think Sander picked the ugliest colors and fabric as a big FU to the judges.

I really feel like the judges were rewarding him more for following their advise then for the actual clothes.

I appreciated Sanders clothes and design during the season (not always my personal taste) but real design potential and I felt he had a vision. However, his fashions for the finale were just so awful- color, design, form and lack of vision.
 

Overall, this show was underwhelming except for all the travel and sites we got to see.

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