S01.E04: Episode 4

[Guest]

Airs April 6, 2020

Quote

Evelyn and Bengelsdorf receive an invitation from Mrs. Lindbergh to a state dinner for Nazi Germany's foreign minister; back from war, Alvin takes a job at his uncle's warehouse; Philip is traumatized by a death in the neighborhood.

 

[AimingforYoko]

So the good Rabbi and Evelyn's eyes were opened ever so slightly, but it's probably too late.

I like that Herman is right. And he's a typical Jersey loudmouth. It can be two things.

[scrb]

We’re there any Jews in America who had illusions about Hitler?

Once Lindbergh cozied up to Hitler, you’d think many of them would have fled.

Without American support, only a matter of time before England and Russia would fall.

Alvin could have stayed in Canada but he wanted his old life gambling in street games and getting drunk with buddies?

Bess should have tried to convince Herman and Alvin that they needed to move up there.

 

[AimingforYoko]

37 minutes ago, Concerned said:

Who is the focus — Herman, Evelyn, Philip?

Spoiler

They changed the last name of the family to Levin. In the book, it's Roth. Philip is Philip Roth, the author.

 

[buckboard]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

Alvin could have stayed in Canada but he wanted his old life gambling in street games and getting drunk with buddies?

Bess should have tried to convince Herman and Alvin that they needed to move up there.

 

Alvin didn't want to stay in Canada because he wasn't fighting for Canada.  He was fighting Hitler for the Jews.  After he could no longer fight, he wanted to go home.

Bess did try to convince Herman to flee to Canada.  She went to the Canadian embassy in New York to find out about emigrating.  She talked to him about going North.  He wanted to stay, because he was an American and this was his country.  He also didn't imagine how bad things would get.

[Marley]

I hate Sandy. I was glad when he got hit by his mom. How stupid is he? He’s not some little kid how can he not understand what’s going on. 

[scrb]

28 minutes ago, buckboard said:

Alvin didn't want to stay in Canada because he wasn't fighting for Canada.  He was fighting Hitler for the Jews.  After he could no longer fight, he wanted to go home.

Bess did try to convince Herman to flee to Canada.  She went to the Canadian embassy in New York to find out about emigrating.  She talked to him about going North.  He wanted to stay, because he was an American and this was his country.  He also didn't imagine how bad things would get.

Yeah I’m saying Bess should have been more insistent.

David Simon says Alvin is too proud in the book, which may be why he wouldn’t just stay in Canada.

The bedpan scene is meant to depict how too prideful, that he wouldn’t have the nurse Empty his bedpan for him.

7 minutes ago, Marley said:

I hate Sandy. I was glad when he got hit by his mom. How stupid is he? He’s not some little kid how can he not understand what’s going on. 

Well he’s 15, probably a bit sheltered.

Its the rabbi and Evelyn who should know better.  They weren’t too shocked by the racial insult that Ford made at them, because Evelyn had a retort.  She’s obviously faced that kind of overt anti-semitism before.

[txhorns79]

15 hours ago, scrb said:

15 hours ago, Marley said:

I hate Sandy. I was glad when he got hit by his mom. How stupid is he? He’s not some little kid how can he not understand what’s going on. 

Well he’s 15, probably a bit sheltered.

Calling his parents "ghetto-Jews" was bad enough, but didn't he tell his father he was worse than Hitler?  Never has a mouthy teenager deserved a slap across the face from his mother more than this kid.  I would have been fine if they showed a line of neighbors out the door waiting to get their licks in, Airplane-style.   

[Marley]

What did Ford say to the Rabbi and Evelyn? I tried rewinding and listening but still couldn’t hear. I heard the 2 racial slurs just not the rest. Just wondering.

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, Marley said:

What did Ford say to the Rabbi and Evelyn? I tried rewinding and listening but still couldn’t hear. I heard the 2 racial slurs just not the rest. Just wondering.

He said (in response to Evelyn's comment about the evening being like a Southern debutante ball or like Gone with the Wind) "If this were the South, you Jews would be out back riling up the n******." 

She responded to him: "Gay kocken offen yam" which I think is Yiddish for "Go s*** in the ocean," or something similar. 

[teddysmom]

16 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

She responded to him: "Gay kocken offen yam" which I think is Yiddish for "Go s*** in the ocean," or something similar. 

David Simon confirmed that, but in today's vernacular it means "go fuck yourself". 

[teddysmom]

Quote

I hate Sandy. I was glad when he got hit by his mom. How stupid is he? He’s not some little kid how can he not understand what’s going on. 

15 is indeed a kid, emotionally and mentally.  He may be maturing physically, but like most children, he doesn't understand the world. He knows what he wants, his art, and to see the world. He doesn't see he's being manipulated by his aunt and the Rabbi to further their agenda, which is to break up Jewish communities. 

Someone gave me an Iron Cross (fake one) when I was in high school in the 60s. It didn't have a swastika in the middle of it, like a lot of the real ones did.  My mother saw it and lost her mind. She yelled at me "do you know what this means, who wore these!??! What they did to your grandparent's friends and families who were stuck in Europe??!!" 

So yeah, kids don't understand the bigger picture sometimes. 

Edited April 8, 2020 by teddysmom

[grommit2]

Gadzooks.
This show is really, really dark and angry.
I regret having read the book, and seen the TV show.
We really, really do not need this provocative, angry stuff right now.

[MrWhyt]

8 hours ago, grommit2 said:

Gadzooks.
This show is really, really dark and angry.
I regret having read the book, and seen the TV show.
We really, really do not need this provocative, angry stuff right now.

it's never the wrong time to say fascism is bad. Punch a nazi today.

Edited April 9, 2020 by MrWhyt

[DoctorAtomic]

On 4/7/2020 at 2:25 PM, txhorns79 said:

Never has a mouthy teenager deserved a slap across the face from his mother more than this kid. 

I know we all know you shouldn't be hitting your kids, but it happened back then. It happened in the 70s. With that out of the way - I'd say Herman was fairly lenient because he's mouthed off in the last episode too, and Herman let it go. Not that I'm giving Herman credit for waiting to smack him, but I think you all get the point. 

I'll give credit to Alvin for faking papers to enlist in the war. I can imagine how crushing it must be to be cut down so quickly. I didn't have a problem with him feeling sorry for himself. 

I liked the crack about 'the stock market being up so now everything is ok.'

Wow that southern accent was *rich* this episode. 

Yeesh, the use of 'relocate' is a loaded term. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[Starchild]

Note: I haven't read the book so my statements are opinions based on what I've watched so far, not any foreknowledge of the story.

At this point, smitten Evelyn is taking her cue from the rabbi, and he's still fooling himself that this attitude of Ford's is an anomaly in America. 

He'll soon get to the point (when the "relocations" start?) where it will be too painful to admit he was wrong and what he's been involved in, and so he'll go all the way to the wall with his denial, dragging Evelyn with him.

[DoctorAtomic]

I assumed the episode threads were 'book free' anyway. I'd rather not be spoiled from the book and just want to take in the show.

[Milburn Stone]

I certainly hope the episode threads won't reveal any spoilers from the book. (And I say that as someone who read the book.)

I took one, tiny positive sign from the state dinner. I've been afraid that Bengelsdorf has just been using Evelyn for sex and/or arm candy--that she's going to be in "fiancée status" permanently.  But at least when she told Henry Ford to go *#$* himself in Yiddish, there seemed to be genuine affection for her on Bengelsdorf's part as he whispered in her ear what the Yiddish meant. I would have been less surprised if his reaction had been, "How dare you insult a captain of American industry and embarrass me that way!," but that wasn't his response. He may have a shred of self-respect after all.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Milburn Stone

[grommit2]

22 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I certainly hope the episode threads won't reveal any spoilers from the book. (And I say that as someone who read the book.)

I took one, tiny positive sign from the state dinner. I've been afraid that Bengelsdorf has just been using Evelyn for sex and/or arm candy--that she's going to be in "fiancée status" permanently.  But at least when she told Henry Ford to go *#$* himself in Yiddish, there seemed to be genuine affection for her on Bengelsdorf's part as he whispered in her ear what the Yiddish meant. I would have been less surprised if his reaction had been, "How dare you insult a captain of American industry and embarrass me that way!," but that wasn't his response. He may have a shred of self-respect after all.

A shred of self-respect?  Yes. 
A chance to realize his strange dream of getting Jewish folks absorbed into America?  No.
 

[txhorns79]

7 hours ago, grommit2 said:

A chance to realize his strange dream of getting Jewish folks absorbed into America?  No.

I don't think his dream is strange so much as it represents something very common, i.e. the desire to belong.  I mean, look at all the various groups that were once "othered" and are now viewed as simply American.  I think that is Bengelsdorf's desire, and his naivety has led him to associate with people who either are indifferent to the Jews or outright hostile.  He either doesn't understand or is willfully ignorant as to their real aims.  I mean, the Secretary of the Interior feels comfortable making anti-Semitic remarks to Bengelsdorf and Evelyn's face, and this is someone who Lindbergh put into his Administration.  That should say something to Bengelsdorft, but it doesn't.         

[Milburn Stone]

11 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't think his dream is strange so much as it represents something very common, i.e. the desire to belong.  I mean, look at all the various groups that were once "othered" and are now viewed as simply American.  I think that is Bengelsdorf's desire, and his naivety has led him to associate with people who either are indifferent to the Jews or outright hostile.  He either doesn't understand or is willfully ignorant as to their real aims.  I mean, the Secretary of the Interior feels comfortable making anti-Semitic remarks to Bengelsdorf and Evelyn's face, and this is someone who Lindbergh put into his Administration.  That should say something to Bengelsdorft, but it doesn't.         

Yeah. What's fascinating about the whole dynamic is that Bengelsdorf and Herman and the rabbi at the funeral are all saying the same thing! That American Jews just want to be regarded as American as the next guy, while still being Jewish. Bengelsdorf's way of achieving that goal wouldn't even be all that wrong-headed if he weren't going up against forces more evil than he can comprehend.

We are clearly meant to be on Herman's side in the dialectic, and I am, so I have to keep reminding myself that many of Bengelsdorf's ideas are ones I share! Confusing. But confusing in a good way.

Edited to add: I even think Alvin's amputation (in the show's interpretation, at least) is there to show us why Lindbergh won the election. Not because most Americans are Nazis. But because most Americans don't want their sons coming back missing a leg. Most Americans didn't want troops on the ground to stop the ethnic cleansing in Croatia in the nineties, either. Which is why troops-on-the-ground didn't happen. To see a somewhat bigger picture ("hey, we're all going to be sieg-heiling this guy if we don't stop him now") takes some people longer than others...

Edited April 12, 2020 by Milburn Stone

[DoctorAtomic]

17 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

He either doesn't understand or is willfully ignorant as to their real aims. 

I think he's willfully ignorant; like, well, if I'm (him) there, then I can make sure our people will be ok. I also think he's genuine in his anti-war position. So he might be thinking - well this guy isn't the best, but if we're going to stay out of the war, then I can use the opportunity to get our people more integrated into America. 

I mean, in politics, you're going to trade off with people you don't like. Say you pair up with an anti-choice guy (I'm pro-choice so from that pov) to get seniors on medicaid to not have to pay tax on their prescriptions or something. Sure, I'm opposed to this guy's philosophy, but we got something done. 

Obviously, we know with hindsight that this is way worse, but with Americans not really aware of the concentration camps, and largely supportive of not being thrown into another faraway war, you can see how he might be like, ok, he's kind of racist, but he's letting use the Holmestead Act to help my people. 

There's got to eventually be a line where the scales fall from his eyes. As much as I love the actor, I'm hoping something happens to Evelyn to jar him into reality. And I hope Herman mops the floor with him. 

[lucindabelle]

Wanting to be considered real American is yes a dream of all immigrants.

but the notion that some Americans are more real than others is the one that’s impossibly flawed. The idea that rural Kentucky is more real than Newark NJ is the issue that is so damning. Sadly it’s one many people still hold.

[Concerned]

On 4/7/2020 at 1:08 AM, Marley said:

I hate Sandy. I was glad when he got hit by his mom. How stupid is he? He’s not some little kid how can he not understand what’s going on. 

In defense of Sandy, he’s 15 years old in 1940. Boys who were 15 years old in 1940 died on the beaches of Normandy. Most war movies like Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan, the Pacific etc are about boys who were 15 in 1940. The father is too old to be drafter, but Sandy is the perfect age to pay the ultimate price in World War 2.

Walter Winchell is a hero in this narrative, but he was a radio personality who outed gay people, rooted for the US entry in World War 2, and outed Communists in government after World War 2. Herman’s worship of this radio personality reminds me who are devoted to Rush Limbaugh. Somebody who wrote letters to Rush Limbaugh, listened to him daily and went to Rush Limbaugh rallies would be considered a nut today.

Getting back to Sandy, he spent 2 months in Kentucky, but his parents completely dismissed his opinions. How many Jews were in Kentucky, the mom asks. Well if she had Google, she would know 14,000 Jews lived in Kentucky in 1937. And the dad thinks the St Louis Cardinals are the nearest baseball team, when the Cincinnati Reds are driving distance. The Reds are one state over, but the Yankees don’t play in Jersey either. What I’m getting at, the parents should have listened to Sandy and not dismissed him as a stupid child.

In the 1940s, it was common for a dad to beat his wife and children like farm animals, but beating your 15 year old today — for any reason — would likely bring Child Protective Services to your front door.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Concerned said:

What I’m getting at, the parents should have listened to Sandy and not dismissed him as a stupid child.

Sandy was being used as a pawn in antisemitic indoctrination program. 

Sandy is a stupid child for not listening to his parents who were right.

[Concerned]

2 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

Sandy was being used as a pawn in antisemitic indoctrination program. 

Sandy is a stupid child for not listening to his parents who were right.

It is in the grand tradition in movies and books written by younger brothers to portray the older brother as a shnook, consider Squid and the Whale for instance.

All the characters are talking about politics and the necessity for war. Sandy, alone, would pay with his life, although everybody else was more mature and sophisticated. Boys who were 15 in 1940 weren’t the officers, or even the non commissioned officers. They were the cannon fodder. The rest of the cast can argue about what the correct actions are, Sandy doesn’t get to reason why, just do and die.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Concerned said:

Sandy, alone, would pay with his life, although everybody else was more mature and sophisticated.

Maybe I missed some finer points in the narrative in the show but Sandy never mentioned being concerned about going to war. So...🤷‍♂️ I can only go on how the character was written in the series -- as a naive but headstrong young boy obsessed with the mythology of "Lucky Lindy" without truly understanding, or wanting to understand, what monstrous beliefs Charles Lindbergh, the person behind the persona, harbored. 

[lucindabelle]

13 hours ago, Concerned said:

 

   

Getting back to Sandy, he spent 2 months in Kentucky, but his parents completely dismissed his opinions. How many Jews were in Kentucky, the mom asks. Well if she had Google, she would know 14,000 Jews lived in Kentucky in 1937. And the dad thinks the St Louis Cardinals are the nearest baseball team, when the Cincinnati Reds are driving distance. The Reds are one state over, but the Yankees don’t play in Jersey either. What I’m getting at, the parents should have listened to Sandy and not dismissed him as a stupid child.

In the 1940s, it was common for a dad to beat his wife and children like farm animals, but beating your 15 year old today — for any reason — would likely bring Child Protective Services to your front door.

Of course the father dismissed him. Judaism is not a private religion. You LITERALLY cannot even say some prayers without a minyan, or 10 adult Jews (in those days, 10 adult males). You don’t accept g-d in your heart etc. Judaism is NOT CHRISTIANITY. 

thats a  big hairy deal. Sending a family to be “pioneers” for Judaism in a place with no synagogue in walking distance- because observant Jews don’t drive on Shabbat- is asking them to STOP PRACTICING JUDAISM, as any Jew watching this would instantly know.

and my beating your child? That idiot said his dad was worse than Hitler.

americans at large didn’t know about death camps and shootings but Jews did. We KNEW. It was in the Yiddish papers.
 

or so said my late father and uncles who all fought in WWII. So says my mom, who was a little girl. Jews knew what was happening. He earned that slap. BIG TIME. He’s just lucky his dad walked out. At 15, he’s more than old enough to know better. 

So no. The parents are not ignorant child abusers. They are Jews.  It’s kind of sad this still has to be explained but I guess it does.

one reason you don’t find a lot of Jewish farmers in America is YOU NEED A MINYAN. In the old country with small farms, there were many Jewish farmers. But in America you can’t practice Judaism if you cannot meet up with 9 other Jews regularly. 
period the end. That’s just how the religion works. You can’t say Kaddish. You can’t read Torah. You just cannot.
 

So this resettlement program  is 100 percent eradication of Judaism.

Edited April 20, 2020 by lucindabelle

[Spartan Girl]

On April 18, 2020 at 11:42 PM, lucindabelle said:

Wanting to be considered real American is yes a dream of all immigrants.

but the notion that some Americans are more real than others is the one that’s impossibly flawed. The idea that rural Kentucky is more real than Newark NJ is the issue that is so damning. Sadly it’s one many people still hold.

THANK YOU. That mentality pisses me off. 

Not only did Sandy earn that slap from his mother, I'm jealous that I couldn't do the honors myself.

[PotterOtherP]

Teenagers rebel against their parents under normal circumstances. Sandy has traditionalist parents in a time before Dr. Spock or psychology-based notions of parenting. He is also being actively recruited by a political organization designed, as Herman pointed out earlier, to separate children from their parents. From these other adults who aren't his boring, restrictive parents, he gets praise, freedom, encouragement of his talent, exciting opportunities, the promise of a new life. Taking advantage of the biology of adolescence is what makes these programs so insidious and why it's possible to, for example, convince comfortable middle-class teenagers to abandon their families and join ISIS.

[Roseanna]

On 4/19/2020 at 4:54 PM, Concerned said:

In defense of Sandy, he’s 15 years old in 1940. Boys who were 15 years old in 1940 died on the beaches of Normandy. Most war movies like Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan, the Pacific etc are about boys who were 15 in 1940. The father is too old to be drafter, but Sandy is the perfect age to pay the ultimate price in World War 2.

Hitler drafted boys (as well as old men) but only in the final scenes of war in 1945 as there was no more men left. But in other 15 year boys were exceptions who volunteered by falsifying their birth records.

If one only looks at Sandy, one notices that he would have no strenght to carry the package soldiers must do. 

In those countries where men of lower social classes didn't have enough to eat as children and adolescents, a great percentage of them hadn't enough lenght and weight even at 21 which is why they were dismissed in the draft. 

 

   

[Roseanna]

On 4/7/2020 at 11:25 PM, txhorns79 said:

Calling his parents "ghetto-Jews" was bad enough, but didn't he tell his father he was worse than Hitler?  Never has a mouthy teenager deserved a slap across the face from his mother more than this kid.  I would have been fine if they showed a line of neighbors out the door waiting to get their licks in, Airplane-style.   

 

On 4/8/2020 at 5:25 PM, teddysmom said:

15 is indeed a kid, emotionally and mentally.  He may be maturing physically, but like most children, he doesn't understand the world. He knows what he wants, his art, and to see the world. He doesn't see he's being manipulated by his aunt and the Rabbi to further their agenda, which is to break up Jewish communities. 

Someone gave me an Iron Cross (fake one) when I was in high school in the 60s. It didn't have a swastika in the middle of it, like a lot of the real ones did.  My mother saw it and lost her mind. She yelled at me "do you know what this means, who wore these!??! What they did to your grandparent's friends and families who were stuck in Europe??!!" 

So yeah, kids don't understand the bigger picture sometimes. 

 

On 4/21/2020 at 2:29 PM, PotterOtherP said:

Teenagers rebel against their parents under normal circumstances. Sandy has traditionalist parents in a time before Dr. Spock or psychology-based notions of parenting. He is also being actively recruited by a political organization designed, as Herman pointed out earlier, to separate children from their parents. From these other adults who aren't his boring, restrictive parents, he gets praise, freedom, encouragement of his talent, exciting opportunities, the promise of a new life. Taking advantage of the biology of adolescence is what makes these programs so insidious and why it's possible to, for example, convince comfortable middle-class teenagers to abandon their families and join ISIS.

Sandy is like normal teenagers. When they can't do what they want, they say to their parents such things like "you are keeping me in prison". And of course Sandy knew exactly that comparing with "Hitler" would hurt his parents most.

I wonder if his parents had had the same opinions as his aunt, would he have rebelled against them by becoming an ardent anti-Nazi?  

[Roseanna]

On 4/20/2020 at 6:45 AM, lucindabelle said:

Of course the father dismissed him. Judaism is not a private religion. You LITERALLY cannot even say some prayers without a minyan, or 10 adult Jews (in those days, 10 adult males). You don’t accept g-d in your heart etc. Judaism is NOT CHRISTIANITY. 

thats a  big hairy deal. Sending a family to be “pioneers” for Judaism in a place with no synagogue in walking distance- because observant Jews don’t drive on Shabbat- is asking them to STOP PRACTICING JUDAISM, as any Jew watching this would instantly know.

and my beating your child? That idiot said his dad was worse than Hitler.

americans at large didn’t know about death camps and shootings but Jews did. We KNEW. It was in the Yiddish papers.
 

or so said my late father and uncles who all fought in WWII. So says my mom, who was a little girl. Jews knew what was happening. He earned that slap. BIG TIME. He’s just lucky his dad walked out. At 15, he’s more than old enough to know better. 

So no. The parents are not ignorant child abusers. They are Jews.  It’s kind of sad this still has to be explained but I guess it does.

one reason you don’t find a lot of Jewish farmers in America is YOU NEED A MINYAN. In the old country with small farms, there were many Jewish farmers. But in America you can’t practice Judaism if you cannot meet up with 9 other Jews regularly. 
period the end. That’s just how the religion works. You can’t say Kaddish. You can’t read Torah. You just cannot.
 

So this resettlement program  is 100 percent eradication of Judaism.

Thank you for the information. I didn't know the details but still understood that the program was against the Jews. 

But that makes teh Rabbi's behaviour wholly incomprehensible. Was he actually non-religious? 

[lucindabelle]

On 4/25/2020 at 7:58 AM, Roseanna said:

Thank you for the information. I didn't know the details but still understood that the program was against the Jews. 

But that makes teh Rabbi's behaviour wholly incomprehensible. Was he actually non-religious? 

Indeed it does make his behavior incomprehensible. The synagogue he’s at seems a fairly traditional one. It truly is hard to understand.

[Anela]

Herman was right, and when they are endangering his child, filling his head with propaganda, he had every right to yell at them both. That image of Evelyn dancing with the man who had that cross on his jacket, was chilling. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Anela