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S08.E08: Threnody(s)

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Carrie decides to wait patiently to see what comes for her next; Wellington makes a surprising discovery.

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Original air date: 3/29/20

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43 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

It is not up on On Demand and Showtime usually puts the episode up at midnight.

Sorry, can't help you there but FWIW my copy fell off the back of a truck a few hours ago so it was released by someone somewhere...

I'll save my reaction until more folks have had a chance to catch up since there was some big stuff in this episode.

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Damn it, show, the ONLY thing I asked of you for this entire season was for Max to survive. I would have been fine with Carrie or even Saul dying. But you had to go and kill poor sweet loyal Max. I hate you guys. [/Cartman]

I know that it looks bad for Carrie to be gallivanting around Pakistan with a Russian agent, but Saul summed up the situation perfectly. Carrie said she was going to find Max and while everyone at the station was doing fuck all to help, she found him and told them exactly where he was and he STILL got killed because they didn't send an extraction team. In the grand scheme of things, who did the right thing and who did the wrong thing? Carrie was trying to save one of their people which no one else was making much effort at.

G'ulom and Zabel knew at a glance that Ben was easy to influence/manipulate so it's no surprise that he ended up doing exactly what Zabel wanted.

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3 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

It is not up on On Demand and Showtime usually puts the episode up at midnight.

Did not check on demand but it was already on Showtime Anywhere.  That is usually more reliable for the Sunday midnight releases. 

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Just watched On Demand with Verizon.

How does the president not know that Max is CIA embedded with the troop deployed to get to Warner’s crash site? Just an adventurer? That was a fail on Saul’s part if he didn’t let president know about that much. I get not letting him know about the black box until they had it.

RIP, Max, you deserved better than this world gave you. I did appreciate Carrie’s recognition of her selfishness. I bet she couldn’t say a single personal thing about Max— she only knows what he did for her.

So Jalal’s only taking credit for the attack? Interesting...

 I was hoping for Carrie and Saul against the world, but I guess that is not happening.

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IRL, Carrie's pistol against four armed soldiers with orders to apprehend, would have resulted in her joining Max in the afterlife.

It's looking more & more like Ms. Mathison will not make it back to the USA.

 

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Did I miss something, Carrie decided those soldiers searching her is the line in the sand that makes her run off with Oleg?

Maybe she’s taking #MeToo too much to heart?  Let’s see, she’s under suspicion for shutting down US surveillance among other things and conspiring with the Russians.

So it’s totally unreasonable for some Americans to be suspicious about her.  But how can the soldiers ignore Saul, who’s probably got the highest rank there?

Well they didn’t draw it out at least with Max’s death.  But WTF with Haqqani rising so he could be gunned down again?

Then they have a longer scene with Carrie by Max’s body talking about how she failed him.

Yes let’s make it about Carrie again, so Danes could have her weeping scene.  Never mind that she delayed him and all those soldiers who got killed by making them get the black box.

Now when they get the black box and show what really happened in that helicopter, will Carrie mention that Max and those soldiers died retrieving it?

Meanwhile, back at the shitshow which is the Hayes White House, Hayes easily gets gaslit again, this time by some hipster beard bro, and his friend with secret video of Jalal with the RPG.

 

 

 

 

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That new adviser is like John Bolton on steroids! But, what do you all make of him asking that new lady to get "kompromat" on the deep staters? (Russian word for compromising material.)  Is the term in common enough usage now in the US that its usage there means nothing significant, and is sort of a mild red herring. Or is that bearded adviser a Russian agent? Will we soon see a call between him and Yevgeny?

Whoever shot down the plane needed info as to the prez's comings and goings. I bet it was the Russians who provided the info. And maybe Yevgeny got it from Carrie (who could have been brainwashed during her 6 month imprisonment) and passed it on. Maybe he's sticking with her to find the black box, then he'll seize it and run with it.

Edited by Pike Ludwell
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I was half-expecting Haissam Haqqani to stand up for the third time in a row.  The guy can sure take several bullets to the chest and abdomen.

R.I.P. Max.  I loved you from the beginning.  Him being gunned down was probably the saddest death in this entire show (that I can remember at this point).

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Who was the bald tall guy who ran all the electronic surveillance for Carrie in the early years?

He was actually Max's boss it looked like.

He just disappeared from the show.

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1 hour ago, Utpe said:

I was half-expecting Haissam Haqqani to stand up for the third time in a row.  The guy can sure take several bullets to the chest and abdomen.

 

I was actually reminded of Will Ferrell’s character in the Austin Powers movie in which he has to be “killed” multiple times and suffers an agonizing death

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1 hour ago, scrb said:

Who was the bald tall guy who ran all the electronic surveillance for Carrie in the early years?

He was actually Max's boss it looked like.

He just disappeared from the show.

Virgil. Yea I was wondering what happened to him also. 

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14 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

That new adviser is like John Bolton on steroids! 

I think he’s modeled after Stephen Miller more than Bolton, though. An idealogue whose fundamental ignorance is incredibly dangerous. It’s sort of fun to see Claire Danes’ hubby finally on the show but he’s...uhh...not very good so far.

 

 

14 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

 

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2 hours ago, TimWil said:

I think he’s modeled after Stephen Miller more than Bolton, though. An idealogue whose fundamental ignorance is incredibly dangerous. It’s sort of fun to see Claire Danes’ hubby finally on the show but he’s...uhh...not very good so far.

 

 

 

Miller is more known for anti-immigration, not his foreign intervention stances. This guy though is a neo-con, like Bolton.

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Every time Homeland drops a line like "Bin Laden was 80%" it takes me out of it, making me wonder who the president was who got Bin Laden in this universe, because despite their name dropping of George W. Bush, and Obama being in the opening credits in the past, it doesn't seem like he was the president during the years 2011-2016 on the show. That shit is just really annoying to me.

So Yevgeny is just basically the Quinn of this season I guess. I don't know why them wanting to put Carrie in restraints made her freak out so much that she ran off with him instead of going back- she DID know that everybody back there thinks she's a Russian agent, she even told Yevgeny that.

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4 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

Miller is more known for anti-immigration, not his foreign intervention stances. This guy though is a neo-con, like Bolton.

I think he’s definitely modeled after Miller. John Zabel is around the same age as  Miller and Bolton is elderly. And Miller also apparently “punches up” Trump’s speeches with incendiary language as a way of throwing red meat to his base and that’s exactly what Zabel did in this episode for this POTUS.

Well, at least one other person agrees with me:

https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/homeland-season-8-episode-8-review-threnodys/?amp

Edited by TimWil

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2 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Every time Homeland drops a line like "Bin Laden was 80%" it takes me out of it, making me wonder who the president was who got Bin Laden in this universe, because despite their name dropping of George W. Bush, and Obama being in the opening credits in the past, it doesn't seem like he was the president during the years 2011-2016 on the show. That shit is just really annoying to me.

So Yevgeny is just basically the Quinn of this season I guess. I don't know why them wanting to put Carrie in restraints made her freak out so much that she ran off with him instead of going back- she DID know that everybody back there thinks she's a Russian agent, she even told Yevgeny that.

Picture the writers' conference room: 
"Hey", says the head writer, "what can we do to grab out audience and make them absolutely HATE us?" 
"Ooh ooh", says writer #2 "lets kill off one of their favorite characters."
"Hmm...yeah", says writer #3, pulling his leaky pen from his shirt pocket.  "That certainly worked when we knocked off Quinn.  They hated us for months after that one."
"OK...so who do we take out?", says the head scribe.
"Carrie?"  a chorus of boos and grumbling follows.
"Saul?"  Pencils fly, chairs are overturned, laptops frisbeed across the room.
"Brody?"  chuckles emanate from the room, as the chairs are stood back up.  "We took him out earlier in the series", says the head writer.  "I wrote that scene myself...one of the most memorable scenes in all of television...stunned the heck out of 'em."
More names are thrown out, including former President Keane, current 'only sensible guy in the room' David Wellington, Alex Jones wannabe Brett O'Keefe.  But none are accepted. 
Until the guy who sweeps up all the papers tossed around mumbles "Max"
The room grows silent.  Eyes squinted. Heads nod slowly. 
Smiles emerge.
"Yes, yes...that's it...lets kill off the guy with the computers".  The room erupts with loud cheers.  "Guaranteed...the viewers will ALL hate us for that...ahh...it will spike ratings...bonuses for all."

 

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Is Saul still the National Security Advisor?  I find it completely implausible that he's visiting Haqqani in prison and watching his execution.  

I also find it implausible that Carrie would be allowed to walk away after drawing her weapon on the soldiers. Why was she surprised by a search?  She's boarding a helicopter with the National Security Advisor after spending the day with a Russian spy.  He could've slipped a listening device in her jacket during their long emotional embrace.

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1 hour ago, TimWil said:

I think he’s definitely modeled after Miller. John Zabel is around the same age as  Miller and Bolton is elderly. And Miller also apparently “punches up” Trump’s speeches with incendiary language as a way of throwing red meat to his base and that’s exactly what Zabel did in this episode for this POTUS.

Well, at least one other person agrees with me:

https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/homeland-season-8-episode-8-review-threnodys/?amp

Personality wise, could be. But in terms of politics, it's clearly Bolton. Miller has little to do with foreign policy advice. Others agree with me. But often these characters are composites of various people.

Edited by Pike Ludwell

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1 hour ago, snarts said:

Is Saul still the National Security Advisor?  I find it completely implausible that he's visiting Haqqani in prison and watching his execution.  

I also find it implausible that Carrie would be allowed to walk away after drawing her weapon on the soldiers. Why was she surprised by a search?  She's boarding a helicopter with the National Security Advisor after spending the day with a Russian spy.  He could've slipped a listening device in her jacket during their long emotional embrace.

The plausibility ship sailed and left Homeland about 5 seasons ago.

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For all the Oleg/Costa fans out there - I was watching an episode of Americans, and Oleg's brother who died in Afganistan is named.... Yvegeny.

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F*ckers killed Max! Nooooo! I never thought I would be this upset after they killed Quinn, but damn. Why kill him? Why? Whyyyyy?

At least Carrie was honest enough to acknowledge how she just used Max all these years.

 

Damn, writers.

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1 hour ago, Norma Desmond said:

F*ckers killed Max! Nooooo! I never thought I would be this upset after they killed Quinn, but damn. Why kill him? Why? Whyyyyy?

At least Carrie was honest enough to acknowledge how she just used Max all these years.

 

Damn, writers.

Indeed, I think they titled the wrong episode "Fucker Shot Me". The executions in this episode were casually brutal.

I would laugh hard if it turned out that Yvegeny was actually really invested in Carrie's mental health and his actions thus far were actually aimed at helping her overcome some of her issues like living in the past and taking her true friends for granted. She thanked him, making him about the only person she has ever thanked for anything.

I have seen a couple of reviews that say the Special Forces team never showed up but they actually did and I think the timing of their appearance makes the situation more tragic: instead of swooping in for a heroic rescue as we would expect they show up in time to pick up a body and arrest someone who is (supposed to be) on their side. Carrie and Saul accuse Mike of sitting there with his thumb up his ass but it isn't Mike's fault that Max got into this situation. I'm not a hundred percent sure Mike was even read in on Max's mission. Saul likes setting up his own little off-the-books shops and it bites him in the ass every time.

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7 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

Saul likes setting up his own little off-the-books shops and it bites him in the ass every time.

The Carrie & Saul body count.  They make quite a team in that respect.

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I liked how Max' execution mirrored that of Carrie's teenage asset-boyfriend in season 4. Especially, since once again, it was a Haquani who did it with her watching from afar. 

I still don't trust Yevgeni one bit. He was a despicable piece of shit last season. No way he's helping Carrie of all people out of the goodness of his heart and no way he wants to defect.

I think he's after the black box too and probably wants to destroy it because it prooves that the russians did it. 

Edited by mrspidey
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Sad they killed Max but not surprised. The question now is will Carrie survive? I’m still not sure why Evgeny is helping her so much, doesn’t he have better things to do? 
I hate new-POTUS and his advisor. I’m hoping for a hard fall. Also sad for Haqqani, don’t know what to think of Jalal, is it too much to hope for Tasneem to save the day? I already know...yes. 

Edited by healthnut

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Damn, Max got a red shirt death! 

Saul as Carrie approaches the helicopter: "Does Yvgeny know about the black box?" 

Carrie: "No he thinks I'm here for Max." 

Don't ever change, Carrie. 

Edited by TVbitch
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21 hours ago, healthnut said:

Sad they killed Max but not surprised. The question now is will Carrie survive? I’m still not sure why Evgeny is helping her so much, doesn’t he have better things to do? 
I hate new-POTUS and his advisor. I’m hoping for a hard fall. Also sad for Haqqani, don’t know what to think of Jalal, is it too much to hope for Tasneem to save the day? I already know...yes. 

Not really sad for Haqqani.  Live by the sword...

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On 3/29/2020 at 10:09 PM, nara said:

I was actually reminded of Will Ferrell’s character in the Austin Powers movie in which he has to be “killed” multiple times and suffers an agonizing death

I was reminded of The Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

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Hugh Dancy needed to twirl his mustache. Obvious bad guy is obvious.

The true definition of Darwin's Law is that one passes their genes on to a new generation.  Who did that in this series? Saul? No. Max? No. Quinn? No. CARRIE.

I may have to give up on this. My blood pressure is making a small vessel in my eye throb.

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Mf-ing Carrie. Max's blood is on her hands AFAIC. And where is the stupid black box now?

So I'm having a slightly better feeling about Wellington now.

Well, Haqqani's son is about to get himself real dead if he wants to be out there claiming he killed a US President.

Who is this Claudette person? And who is the Neanderthal-looking warmonger she's helping to work Hayes?

No, you moron, Haqqani's son is a lying braggart trying to move into the vacancy left by his father's death. Why would they just take that video at face value without confirming it?

You almost think someone wanted to drive Carrie back into the Russian clutches. Hmm, Mike the station chief?

Oh, Carrie. Now you're about to find out whether you really can trust Yevgeny. Odds are good the answer is NO!!!!!

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"Every adventurer that gets lost overseas?" You do know he works (well, worked) for your government!?

It seems the Taliban are showing more unity than the White House is. Even Haqqani (Sr)'s lieutenant didn't rat out his son.

"Give the American people what they want - another endless war!"

Carrie said thank you! Amazing!

"The Pakistanis only gave us a small window." Well, it's going to slam shut now you've virtually declared war on them

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2020 at 12:27 AM, scrb said:

So it’s totally unreasonable for some Americans to be suspicious about her.  But how can the soldiers ignore Saul, who’s probably got the highest rank there?

He has no military rank, he's just an observer. Militaries have very clear rules on who takes orders from whom and all Saul can do is advise - they don't have to listen to him.

20 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Who is this Claudette person? And who is the Neanderthal-looking warmonger she's helping to work Hayes?

He's Dr Evil and she's Frau Farbissina!

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On 4/4/2020 at 2:35 AM, WaltersHair said:

Hugh Dancy needed to twirl his mustache. Obvious bad guy is obvious.

The true definition of Darwin's Law is that one passes their genes on to a new generation.  Who did that in this series? Saul? No. Max? No. Quinn? No. CARRIE.

I may have to give up on this. My blood pressure is making a small vessel in my eye throb.

Quinn had a son.

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Quinn had a son.

I totally forgot that. It's a son offscreen, right? I think the show died for me when Quinn died, but I kept watching hoping for better, only to be sideswiped with Max's death. Yes, he died a hero, but damn.

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Hugh Dancy as a douche bro? I didn't recognize him at first. 

Max. 😞 I don't know why I thought he would make it out alive. 

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On 3/29/2020 at 10:10 PM, scrb said:

Who was the bald tall guy who ran all the electronic surveillance for Carrie in the early years?

He was actually Max's boss it looked like.

He just disappeared from the show.

Good old Virgil.

I always remember him as Ray. He played Ray on this great TV show called Due South.

Virgil did kind of disappear one day. Max was his little brother. 

RIP Max. We loved you.

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On 3/29/2020 at 7:06 PM, Utpe said:

R.I.P. Max.  I loved you from the beginning.  Him being gunned down was probably the saddest death in this entire show (that I can remember at this point).

Fara's death was harder for me, and Quinn's brain damage, but yeah, I had hopes for Max surviving. 

homeland-01_612x380_0.jpg&q=85

 

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On 3/30/2020 at 2:27 AM, scrb said:

Never mind that she delayed him and all those soldiers who got killed by making them get the black box.

I don't blame Carrie for it. The black box is both nationally and internationally most important thing as it reveals the truth about the Presidents' helicopter and everyone in charge would have made the same decision. The only mistake was not to tell Max and the soldiers before the mission how important it was to bring it with them which was a stupid way to create suspence.

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On 3/31/2020 at 5:10 PM, mrspidey said:

I think he's after the black box too and probably wants to destroy it because it prooves that the russians did it. 

Actually we don't know what really happened to the first helicopter where both Presidents were. It could have been an accident. 

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On 3/30/2020 at 2:27 AM, scrb said:

Meanwhile, back at the shitshow which is the Hayes White House, Hayes easily gets gaslit again, this time by some hipster beard bro, and his friend with secret video of Jalal with the RPG.

Has the new president ever heard how easy it is make a fake video? (We know it's genuine but we also know that Jalal lied.)

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On 3/30/2020 at 2:59 AM, Pike Ludwell said:

Whoever shot down the plane needed info as to the prez's comings and goings. I bet it was the Russians who provided the info. And maybe Yevgeny got it from Carrie (who could have been brainwashed during her 6 month imprisonment) and passed it on. Maybe he's sticking with her to find the black box, then he'll seize it and run with it.

Carrie learned that the President is coming only when his plane landed and after that we saw her every second. Mike with his staff knew it earlier.

 The black box reveals only the reason why the helicopter crashed. It can in no way tell who shot it down, if it was even shot.  

On 3/31/2020 at 7:50 AM, dwmarch said:

I have seen a couple of reviews that say the Special Forces team never showed up but they actually did and I think the timing of their appearance makes the situation more tragic: instead of swooping in for a heroic rescue as we would expect they show up in time to pick up a body and arrest someone who is (supposed to be) on their side. Carrie and Saul accuse Mike of sitting there with his thumb up his ass but it isn't Mike's fault that Max got into this situation. I'm not a hundred percent sure Mike was even read in on Max's mission. Saul likes setting up his own little off-the-books shops and it bites him in the ass every time.

I think there is some justice in Saul's accusation. As far as we know, Mike didn't do anything when Carrie originally asked him to save Max. Of course he may have thought it was Yevgeny's trap.

However, it was the new president, urged by his new advisor, who condemned Max to die, instead of giving the Special Forces 24 hours time to save Max.

The advisor spoke utter nonsense: if they could conceal from the public that the late presiden't body was bombed and his coffin was empty, they could much easier have concealed if the mission to save Max had failed. Nobody knew about him, unlike about the well-known hostiges during Carter's time.

On 4/5/2020 at 3:44 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

You almost think someone wanted to drive Carrie back into the Russian clutches. Hmm, Mike the station chief?

A clever idea.

On 4/6/2020 at 12:36 AM, John Potts said:

"Give the American people what they want - another endless war!"

That.

Generally: if you give the public what the want, you go to the war when the public is outraged about something, and then you withdraw from the war when the public can no more stand offers. Why are you president? Get the gallup do your job!

On 3/31/2020 at 12:29 AM, ruby24 said:

So Yevgeny is just basically the Quinn of this season I guess. I don't know why them wanting to put Carrie in restraints made her freak out so much that she ran off with him instead of going back- she DID know that everybody back there thinks she's a Russian agent, she even told Yevgeny that.

That's Carrie. She always thinks that she knew best and she can alone save the day.

Remember how she let Brody escape after the CIA building was bombed. (And how could they have succeeded to drive the Canadien border - even without any disguise!) 

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