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S02.E02: Ladies and Gentlemen We Are Floating in Space

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Something keeps bugging me - why is Max in Noah's pod? It's defective. Max does seem to genuinely be in very bad shape wherever he is in existence, even if I'm skeptical that's why he's so insistent on not being brought back. Rosa has no way of knowing of the defective pod, but Isobel and Liz do. Why wouldn't they put him in his own pod? Or any one of the three that are so-called "upper class"? Noah's body degenerated in there; there's no reason to think it would be any better for Max. Yes, it kept Rosa from decomposing, but she's not an alien. 

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13 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Something keeps bugging me - why is Max in Noah's pod? It's defective. Max does seem to genuinely be in very bad shape wherever he is in existence, even if I'm skeptical that's why he's so insistent on not being brought back. Rosa has no way of knowing of the defective pod, but Isobel and Liz do. Why wouldn't they put him in his own pod? Or any one of the three that are so-called "upper class"? Noah's body degenerated in there; there's no reason to think it would be any better for Max. Yes, it kept Rosa from decomposing, but she's not an alien. 

   I agree, maybe that's why Max says he's burning from inside, but I think he feels that way because of the dark energy produced by him saving Rosa, I mean, he felt a lot of anger after saving Liz, so much so that he caused a citywide blackout. Maybe they didn't want to be caught moving the body, although after the whole car crash to get Noah's body, they're not that concerned with getting caught, they are all absolutely reckless, specially having Rosa stay at Max's, it's absolutely ridiculous...I guess it's cheaper and easier for the vfx people to do the effects for one pod instead of three, so they went that route, the showrunner is always talking about their very limited budget, and limited time they have to film the show, if we see the 3 pods again regularly I'll be surprised.

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15 hours ago, Bloga said:

Ok, you said biracial and that kinda threw me off, on episode 1 they said something about Alex and Flint looking alike and I just don't see it...

Yea, they were acting like Alex and his brother look like twins and I was like are you sure lol.

15 hours ago, Dizzychickstar said:

In his own Idontmeantodoit way, he is still hurting Rosa. 

Fucking Max lol.

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I'm really hesitant to say Max is to blame for Rosa using again. She was clearly right on the verge most of the episode and anything was going to set her off, and the "quieting voices" line is straight out of the pilot where Liz said Rosa started using because she's mentally ill. If it hadn't been him, it would have been something else.

Now, saying maybe he shouldn't have brought someone who had been dead a decade back to life because she has no real life to go back to and therefore it may not have been as heroic as he might have thought is a valid point, lol, but ultimately, Rosa is responsible for the choices she makes, and Max didn't make her be mentally ill.

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I hate all triangles with a passion, but I wouldn't believe Liz/Kyle/Max either, mostly because Liz has never seemed that into Kyle. She seems very fond of him as a friend, but she's had a lot of chances to see him as someone she could fall head over heels in love with, and she's given it a hard pass every time (plus, it's kinda pointless - Liz and Max are it in any iteration of Roswell).

Triangles are and triangles using three main characters are worse and I cannot see a good way out of Alex/Michael/Maria where marginalized viewers who often lack for good representation onscreen don't get slighted. 

 

Welll some triangles are better than others, love triangles or hate them, they are a tool in storytelling and never really going away. I dont consider all triangles bad , depends how long they last for, who is in it, execution etc. I really dont like love triangles that come between siblings or best friends. Max/Liz/Kyle is better for me because Kyle and Max were already rivials/enemies, not much is really lost when they will be fighting. But seems showrunners try to go for the most "juicy" and toxic situation, thats why they put two characters who are siblings or best friends in the triangle. More drama and shock factor. Of course CM thinks its also brilliant🙄 with the addition of the  bisexual angle of this triangle; Alex/Michael/Maria. 

Just saying if they need to have a triangle, it could be less toxic and problematic. Doesn't have to be Max/Liz/kyle, could be some other combination, other characters...

 

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Although, I guess he just had to have a triangle and knew that one involving Liz and Max would truly never work since, as you said, everyone knows Max and Liz are it. 

Why are they it...., just seem to be one of those "destined couples"  whose reason for existing is just that. I really never like this Max/Liz ship in both tv show versions, I was open to like this show's version when RNM was announced, but its the same story here too. They never really try to explain what the two characters see in each other?, what do they have in common?, why are they good for each other and together?. I also dont think Nathan and Jeanine have this great chemistry as Max and Liz. im just not into these obsessive, all consuming type of ships.

Alex and Michael are the better story between the two ships but not by much, they too are leaning into this "destined couple" crap with not much effort put into real development. There is always some fight and angst in in most of their scene so far. "We are not good for each other, Alex" " I want to be good for, somebody". Well that seems pretty clear they would be better with other people. 

 

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4 hours ago, CabotCove said:

Why are they it...., just seem to be one of those "destined couples"  whose reason for existing is just that. I really never like this Max/Liz ship in both tv show versions, I was open to like this show's version when RNM was announced, but its the same story here too.

I never gave a shit about Max/Liz in the original and I don't here either, but I still know they are 100% obviously endgame so imo it's completely pointless for them to be in a triangle.

But the showrunner is out here making it clear that Michael/Alex are endgame so Maria/Michael/Alex is also a completely pointless triangle.

I don't always hate triangles, but they're really hard to swallow when TPTB make it clear which couple they like the most lol.

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1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

I never gave a shit about Max/Liz in the original and I don't here either, but I still know they are 100% obviously endgame so imo it's completely pointless for them to be in a triangle.

But the showrunner is out here making it clear that Michael/Alex are endgame so Maria/Michael/Alex is also a completely pointless triangle.

I don't always hate triangles, but they're really hard to swallow when TPTB make it clear which couple they like the most lol.

But is it explicitly stated that Michael/Alex are endgame or is it just a game the showrunner is playing to keep those viewers? I don't trust CM and don't trust that their pairing wasn't just another tick of the box on the list of inclusiveness. She also never said no to Michael/Maria happening prior to season 1 premiering. Either way, problematic writing is problematic.

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7 hours ago, CabotCove said:

They never really try to explain what the two characters see in each other?, what do they have in common

I actually think this show has done a somewhat better job than the OG show of being pretty explicit at what they see in each other. For Max, he was a lonely kid with no words, and she gave him her music and teased him out of his shell. For Liz, she's afraid no one ever really sees her and would love her knowing she's flawed, and he pretty clearly told her he knows she's messed up and he loves her anyway. And they're both nerds in their way, which has always more or less been what all versions of Max and Liz have in common. I haven't seen any indication that this Max and Liz are incompatible personality-wise - they seem to have enjoyed spending time together most of their lives. I'm having a much bigger issue on that front with Michael and Alex, as I mentioned elsewhere, because I'm genuinely concerned for Alex that Michael's resentment of him is really unhealthy. I believe that Max and Liz fundamentally like each other, enjoy each other, and pretty much always have. If Michael LIKES Alex, whatever else he feels for him, I am not seeing it. 

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3 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I never gave a shit about Max/Liz in the original and I don't here either, but I still know they are 100% obviously endgame so imo it's completely pointless for them to be in a triangle.

But the showrunner is out here making it clear that Michael/Alex are endgame so Maria/Michael/Alex is also a completely pointless triangle.

I don't always hate triangles, but they're really hard to swallow when TPTB make it clear which couple they like the most lol.

 

2 hours ago, ellieart said:

But is it explicitly stated that Michael/Alex are endgame or is it just a game the showrunner is playing to keep those viewers? I don't trust CM and don't trust that their pairing wasn't just another tick of the box on the list of inclusiveness. She also never said no to Michael/Maria happening prior to season 1 premiering. Either way, problematic writing is problematic.

      The writing on this show...where to begin... It does feel like a checklist, even if it´s at the expense of good storytelling. One of the issues I have with the show is its portrayal of New Mexico´s diversity. Diversity in a place like New Mexico is different from, say, NYC or San Francisco, and the showrunner doesn´t seem to get it. She fails to realize not every Latino is a recent immigrant, or even first generation American...people of Hispanic heritage have lived in New Mexico for centuries. I understand the current political climate makes telling immigrant stories important, and the idea of otherness in relation to  the undocumented people and the aliens is actually quite smart, I just wish the writing was stronger. There are a lot of clichés thrown around and the characters contradict themselves constantly, maybe it´s just me, but there was something off about Roswell´s resident racists being so cool towards Maria. The whole love triangle feels so artificial, like there was no organic lead up to it, just boom, now Michael likes Maria, but Maria doesn´t need no man so she´ll be fine when Michael goes back to Alex. The showrunner really seems to engage a lot with fans, but her attitude seems a bit juvenile, she gets really pissy when people remind her of what she did with Maria last season, and no matter what she does this season, she has made it impossible for people to see Maria and Michael as a plausible option.

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Those asking why Max doesn't give Rosa a reason why he doesn't want to be saved - I think he did in the first episode. It has something to do with him being the chosen one and the aliens coming if he comes back to life. 

My take on Alex saying to Michael (re: Maria), I'd pick her too if I could. IMO that was kind of a slap in Michael's face. I took it to mean Alex was saying, look you're a male who likes 2 people, 1 is a male and 1 is a female. Of course you take the easy way (in the eyes of society) and choose the female. If I had the choice (i.e. I was bisexual) I'd choose the woman as well. 

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43 minutes ago, Samwise979 said:

IMO that was kind of a slap in Michael's face.

I didn't see it that way at all.  I think it's the writer's way to show a) how great Alex is, b) that Maria is awesome and c) that he would be with Maria if he was not gay.  But it is very interesting to read your perspective.

I think Alex is too good for Michael.  I'm fine with them being friends, but I don't want them as a romantic pairing.  I hope they are not endgame, b/c I'd like to see Alex with someone who deserves him more.

Very interested to see what happens to Daddy Manes/Todd goin forward.

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9 hours ago, Samwise979 said:

My take on Alex saying to Michael (re: Maria), I'd pick her too if I could. IMO that was kind of a slap in Michael's face. I took it to mean Alex was saying, look you're a male who likes 2 people, 1 is a male and 1 is a female. Of course you take the easy way (in the eyes of society) and choose the female. If I had the choice (i.e. I was bisexual) I'd choose the woman as well

8 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

didn't see it that way at all.  I think it's the writer's way to show a) how great Alex is, b) that Maria is awesome and c) that he would be with Maria if he was not gay.  But it is very interesting to read your perspective.

And my take on it was: Who on Earth or any planet ever talks that way? 🙄

Maybe that’s how the jilted lovers are saying it these days? IDK. 🤷🏼‍♀️ 

Maybe the writers were going for post-breakup conversations being supremely awkward —and it was that.

I cringed, shuddered a bit, and moved on. 

But, yes, @Samwise979's interpretation makes sense. I don’t know if a more experienced actor could have conveyed it more clearly, or if the writing should have spelled it out, or if I’m too dense to get it. 
Maybe more clear language was cut. 

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11 hours ago, Bloga said:

The showrunner really seems to engage a lot with fans, but her attitude seems a bit juvenile ...

Bingo bango.

9 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

I think Alex is too good for Michael.  

No doubt. So is Maria lol.

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14 hours ago, ellieart said:

But is it explicitly stated that Michael/Alex are endgame or is it just a game the showrunner is playing to keep those viewers? I don't trust CM and don't trust that their pairing wasn't just another tick of the box on the list of inclusiveness. She also never said no to Michael/Maria happening prior to season 1 premiering. Either way, problematic writing is problematic.

I know in interviews from last season, CM specifically stated, in her own words, that Michael/Alex are endgame. I remember that because I remember being pissed off with her attitude toward Maria. Michael Vlamis also stated specifically that he considered Alex/Michael endgame. 

10 hours ago, Samwise979 said:

My take on Alex saying to Michael (re: Maria), I'd pick her too if I could. IMO that was kind of a slap in Michael's face. I took it to mean Alex was saying, look you're a male who likes 2 people, 1 is a male and 1 is a female. Of course you take the easy way (in the eyes of society) and choose the female. If I had the choice (i.e. I was bisexual) I'd choose the woman as well. 

I like your interpretation. Personally, I did see it another way, in the sense that I think Alex was saying that Maria was the better of the two and, yes, the easier choice. Not necessarily in the eyes of society that it's easier to choose a straight relationship over a gay one, but because being with Maria, in their eyes, caused less complications than if Alex or Michael chose each other, due to their rocky history and, yes, how much trouble Michael brings to other people.

However, with this show and how they've pretty much offended people on their choices on consent and other issues, you could be right. 

Personally, I don't want Alex to be with Michael. I don't necessarily want Maria with Michael when he's clearly going to flip flop between her and Alex, but at least I see chemistry with the two of them. Their end scene was great. It's just going to spell out disaster, because we've already been told that it would. So it's better if Michael works out his own shit first before being with ANYONE. He's a mess and that's not going to change right now.

So, Max tries to tell Rosa that he's...burning from the inside and needs to be taken out of the pod. I get why Rosa's pissed enough at Max to not listen to him. She just found out that he's the reason why the town thinks she's a murderer and has opened the door to such hate and racism toward her family. I don't blame her for feeling a bit vengeful. And yeah, I'm not really that pissed at her for torturing him a bit by not taking him out of the pod. But still, the only way he's going to leave Rosa alone is if she does what he wants. 

But now, Rosa's just going to drown his voice away through alcohol. And we also don't know for sure if that will stop Max's pain. Not that I particularly care since Max is probably my least favourite character on this show, but it does still kind of suck for him. He saved a life and now he's suffering for it.

Plus, a dead Max means more interactions for other characters. Getting more Michael/Liz scenes this episode was great. It branched Liz off to other characters not named Max or Kyle. Michael becomes a little less broody around anyone not in his love triangle. It's kind of nice. But still, with the knowledge that Max will be coming back at some point while he's burning alive or whatever...

This show LOVES to torture its characters in the most horrific of ways.

Like Isobel, who is now trying to self-abort her baby. Because that'll work so well...

So, Kyle meets the new doctor in town, who is an alien. Which I guess it going to connect to Michael's mom, as they did say that Nora was not captured right away so she probably lived a life for a year with other people and potentially other aliens. Or she's connected to Jesse Manes, who had aliens captured for years, right? 

And again, show, Alex and his brother look NOTHING alike. I'm sorry, but they really don't look like brothers. 

I feel like this show needs a new problem to tackle. We have individual arcs going, but with Jesse kind of laying around at the moment, we have no Big Bad. I kind of want a Big Bad.

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37 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I know in interviews from last season, CM specifically stated, in her own words, that Michael/Alex are endgame. I remember that because I remember being pissed off with her attitude toward Maria. Michael Vlamis also stated specifically that he considered Alex/Michael endgame. 

Yeah it seemed a lot of the time CM had her fangirl hat on and not her showrunner hat. I've never seen a showrunner set up a triangle and actually have loud, passionate factions on both sides so explicitly stating her preferences in Season 1.

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46 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

 

And again, show, Alex and his brother look NOTHING alike. I'm sorry, but they really don't look like brothers. 

 

    OMG, you are so right, I know why they are doing it though, they want to set things up so that when they introduce Alex´s mom, people don´t go "why is an Indigenous woman playing Alex´s mom?", to what I say, why didn´t they cast an actual Indigenous actor to play Alex then? The guy playing Alex´s brother is Native American, and I think the guy playing another Manes brother is Indigenous as well, Tyler Blackburn is a lot of different white ethnicities, then Cherokee is mentioned, but that sounds like pretty much every white American claiming a Cherokee princess in their ancestry. I´m sure the showrunner has said something about it, she sure defends her not so smart choices when confronted, anyways.

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I like the show actually going there with Michael and Maria!

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But is it explicitly stated that Michael/Alex are endgame or is it just a game the showrunner is playing to keep those viewers? I don't trust CM and don't trust that their pairing wasn't just another tick of the box on the list of inclusiveness. She also never said no to Michael/Maria happening prior to season 1 premiering. 

I think CM think she can do her own Stelena/Delena with this Alex/Michael/Maria love triangle. She is very proud and gushing of Alex/Michael because its queer representation for the show, and she probably gets asked more about them because of being lgbt representation. Now I do believe she is genuine in wanting to follow through with queer representation, but in wanting a Stelena/Delena like triangle with the three characters, she ends up undermining the gay couple representation she wants and wants credit for.  She put the queer characters/relationship in a no win situation as well as Maria, a huge character she racebended in this version and Michael's usual love interest. Either way she goes, she is going to be accused of marginalising an already marginalised minority. 

Its the CW, they seem to love it when there is shipping wars over a triangle. More social media and online chatter for them, is a win for them. Even if she sees Michael/Alex as endgame or is more biased toward them, they may want to keep the triangle afloat for seasons. Writers having a bias or personal favourite towards one ship is not necessarily a bad thing to me, its more about how they write the story and the characters in it. Personally, I think CM has been fairly balanced so far, despite whatever she is saying in media or twitter, but things could get ugly very quickly in this triangle.

 

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My take on Alex saying to Michael (re: Maria), I'd pick her too if I could. IMO that was kind of a slap in Michael's face. I took it to mean Alex was saying, look you're a male who likes 2 people, 1 is a male and 1 is a female. Of course you take the easy way (in the eyes of society) and choose the female. If I had the choice (i.e. I was bisexual) I'd choose the woman as well

I guess it could be read that way, but I took it as Alex was saying "Maria is a great person, If I had a choice to have a fluid sexuality or if I was straight I would date her too"....Kind of like how straight people joke they have a "girl crush/guy crush" of someone  attractive of their sex and would date them if they were gay. And choosing an Interracial relationship with a black woman, in what seem to be a state and town with not many black people in it, is not the easy way. So no, Michael is not taking the easy way, either way. Add on the human/alien difference too. Easy way would probably be if he chose Isabel. 

Michael doesnt seem to have any shame in being bisexual/fluid, so I dont agree with this narrative he is choosing Maria because he is shameful or afraid to be in a gay relationship. CM actually said its "Alex who is ashamed of Michael". Honestly Im not even sure why Alex/Michael still have so much angst and pushing each other away, Jesse Maine is no longer a threat/obstacle in their relationship. 

Edited by CabotCove
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I like the show actually going there with Michael and Maria!

cool but why is there doubt they were going there with them? We been told its a love triangle since season 1. I know Alex/Michael are super popular and that could very well sway the showrunners/writers to just make them endgame [CW shows tends to do that after all]. But sometimes the story being told on screen and what being said in fandom are two different things. 

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I never gave a shit about Max/Liz in the original and I don't here either, but I still know they are 100% obviously endgame so imo it's completely pointless for them to be in a triangle.

Sure, endgame is the intention and they have a high chance to be, but its not over until its over. A character could die, an actor could leave the show...plans can change etc. 

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10 hours ago, Bloga said:

OMG, you are so right, I know why they are doing it though, they want to set things up so that when they introduce Alex´s mom, people don´t go "why is an Indigenous woman playing Alex´s mom?", to what I say, why didn´t they cast an actual Indigenous actor to play Alex then?

Well for one.. If you do a bi-racial actor you can sneak in a white parent.. Two sometimes even full-blood siblings who are bi-racial end up looking diff... Favoring one more than the other.. And TB has enough other in him that om first glance ppl usually have to wonder of he's white... So he gets the job... This is of course assuming he's got the chops for the job 

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I still want to know what grown ass, almost 30somethings, are doing in a love triangle. Or what grown ass 30something writers think that's the kind of content people want to see on adult shows. 

I honestly don't feel like this show is as grown as it thinks it is. It's like watching teenagers trying way too hard to be adults.

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8 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Well for one.. If you do a bi-racial actor you can sneak in a white parent.. Two sometimes even full-blood siblings who are bi-racial end up looking diff... Favoring one more than the other.. And TB has enough other in him that om first glance ppl usually have to wonder of he's white... So he gets the job... This is of course assuming he's got the chops for the job 

   I agree full-blooded siblings can look very different, but that's the thing, on episode one they had the guy at the morgue say he thought Alex and Flint were the same person, which is ridiculous, they look nothing alike...Tyler Blackburn looks Croatian to me, if you have seen people from the Balkan region, many of them have those darker features and complexion.

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5 hours ago, ellieart said:

I still want to know what grown ass, almost 30somethings, are doing in a love triangle. Or what grown ass 30something writers think that's the kind of content people want to see on adult shows. 

I honestly don't feel like this show is as grown as it thinks it is. It's like watching teenagers trying way too hard to be adults.

It's the CW-CM combo, they LOVE a triangle...if Carina could make Michael and Alex the main couple, she would, though, over Liz and Max even💁‍♀️

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3 hours ago, Bloga said:

   I agree full-blooded siblings can look very different, but that's the thing, on episode one they had the guy at the morgue say he thought Alex and Flint were the same person, which is ridiculous, they look nothing alike...Tyler Blackburn looks Croatian to me, if you have seen people from the Balkan region, many of them have those darker features and complexion.

Oh yeah Alex and Flint don't "look just like each other" that's just wild tv hyperbole.... Tho on this show where we have Jeanne Mason and Amber Midthunder playing siblings... It feels extra silly

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10 hours ago, CabotCove said:

Either way she goes, she is going to be accused of marginalising an already marginalised minority. 

True, although I suppose you could say it's progressive to have and LGBT and interracial love triangle on the show where usually it would have been 100% white and 100% straight the two boys would have been confined to fanfic and subtext and Michael/Maria brief and very background. I don't think much about how the show is actually written is progressive though.

 

10 hours ago, CabotCove said:

cool but why is there doubt they were going there with them? We been told its a love triangle since season 1. I know Alex/Michael are super popular and that could very well sway the showrunners/writers to just make them endgame [CW shows tends to do that after all]. But sometimes the story being told on screen and what being said in fandom are two different things. 

.I think people were worried from some of CM's and MV's interviews last season that Michael/Maria were just going to be an obvious and fairly short pitstop on the way to several seasons of Malex drama. I honestly don't think online shipping influences showrunners the way the fandoms think it does. Obviously it helps support decisions but only if they're already made. There are too many other fingers in the process and only a tiny amount of people are actually making the noise.

 

7 hours ago, ellieart said:

I still want to know what grown ass, almost 30somethings, are doing in a love triangle. Or what grown ass 30something writers think that's the kind of content people want to see on adult shows. 

I honestly don't feel like this show is as grown as it thinks it is. It's like watching teenagers trying way too hard to be adults.

 It happens on so many adult shows both on network TV and streaming. Shonda Rhimes has built an empire on having 20-50 somethings unironically say "hospital is exactly like high school" and create sex chains at their important place of work. And she's far from the only one. 

As for why they could introduce a love triangle or break up Max/Liz for different love interests for a while even though the show is considering them endgame baring an actor leaving? It gives them something to do for up to 3/4/5 seasons +, creates fan reaction and articles and so many writers have no idea of how to write a couple over coming both internal and external obstacles together for multiple years. That's one reason the "stable" couple so often gets a long "trying for a baby but can't conceive" arc. Though obvious they're no where near that yet. 

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I actually think this show has done a somewhat better job than the OG show of being pretty explicit at what they see in each other. For Max, he was a lonely kid with no words, and she gave him her music and teased him out of his shell. For Liz, she's afraid no one ever really sees her and would love her knowing she's flawed, and he pretty clearly told her he knows she's messed up and he loves her anyway. And they're both nerds in their way, which has always more or less been what all versions of Max and Liz have in common. I haven't seen any indication that this Max and Liz are incompatible personality-wise - they seem to have enjoyed spending time together most of their lives. 

I have been rewatching some of the season 1 episodes and I guess I see it now why Max gravitates to Liz. She is a smart woman, fearless, heroic, outspoken, friendly etc... . But Im yet to be convinced why she likes him back so much, besides that "oh he is an alien".  Yeah he is good person, but thats not enough for me. "They just enjoy spending time together" or some flattery Is not enough, I need more than that.

That being said I do think they are making a more effort in this version  of expanding the two characters  as separate individuals and making a more realistic relationship, than in the OG show. Sorry dreamer fans, I just could not stand the OG Max and Liz. They seemed to have no lives, outside of looking into each other's eyes. 

I like this Liz/Jeanine, she is more independent and her life is not just about a man. She gets to use her science smarts more her, which I like. I think the show needs to make Max a more rootable and interesting character, I find him the weakest link. In both TV versions, he just doesn't seem to have much of a personality. Stop making him so obsessed and stalkerish with Liz, and get a life. 

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39 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

I have been rewatching some of the season 1 episodes and I guess I see it now why Max gravitates to Liz. She is a smart woman, fearless, heroic, friendly etc... . But Im yet to be convinced why she likes him back so much, besides that "oh he is an alien".  Yeah he is good person, but thats not enough for me. "They just enjoy spending time together" or some flattery Is not enough, I need more than that.

That being said I do think they are making a more effort in this version  of expanding the two characters  as separate individuals and making a more realistic relationship, than in the OG show. Sorry dreamer fans, I just could not stand the OG Max and Liz. They seemed to have no lives, outside of looking into each other's eyes. 

I like this Liz/Jeanine, she is more independent and her life is not just about a man. She gets to use her science smarts more her, which I like. I think the show needs to make Max a more rootable and interesting character, I find him the weakest link. In both TV versions, he just doesn't seem to have much of a personality. Stop making him so obsessed and stalkerish with Liz, and get a life. 

      He is a bit obsessed, isn´t he? At least he was aware of it, and knew it was kind of pathetic, in the beginning Liz told him she didn´t know what to do with all those feelings he had towards her. I think the lack of personality was kind of part of his strategy, playing it safe, not bringing attention to himself...of course all that went out the window when he saved Liz, but being kind of beige saved him all those years prior. I think people overlook obsessive/stalkerish behavior when the dude is good looking. We´ll see how being stuck in limbo is going to change Max, it´s going to be bad.

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 I'm having a much bigger issue on that front with Michael and Alex, as I mentioned elsewhere, because I'm genuinely concerned for Alex that Michael's resentment of him is really unhealthy. I believe that Max and Liz fundamentally like each other, enjoy each other, and pretty much always have. If Michael LIKES Alex, whatever else he feels for him, I am not seeing it. 

Yeah I agree on this front. I find it hard to read what the story is with these two. The hot and cold bs, doesnt make it "epic love story" to me, its just annoying. The show needs to work on doing better with Michael/Alex and not just rely on because "cosmic connection" or "endgame". 

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21 hours ago, CabotCove said:

Yeah I agree on this front. I find it hard to read what the story is with these two. The hot and cold bs, doesnt make it "epic love story" to me, its just annoying. The show needs to work on doing better with Michael/Alex and not just rely on because "cosmic connection" or "endgame". 

I also have never seen any indication their connection is "cosmic." Probably the closest ship to do anything cosmic is when Liz felt Max dying through their connection. Well, and Max and Isobel are clearly cosmic siblings, lol. What is cosmic about Michael and Alex? What indication is there that they have some sort of otherworldly bond? I'm barely seeing their bond in THIS world, lol. And it's mostly because Michael seems so incredibly resentful of Alex, at least for me. 

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On 3/26/2020 at 6:14 PM, Bloga said:

I wouldn't put it past her to introduce a new love interest for Liz next season

They mentioned in the second episode of this series that Liz had a fiance that she left high and dry in (hee!) in San Diego and I always keep waiting for him to show up. I'm picturing Matt Barr. The CW likes Matt Barr, and it can be a little Wildcats reunion with him and Heather!

The reference to Jimmy from Degrassi becoming a rapper made me smile. I became super-obsessed with Degrassi in 2005 when we got The N on cable. I wonder if Rosa will laugh her ass off when she sees that the Kardashians are still being kept up with now and Trump is now president? LOL.

As for all the other stuff...I just keep my expectations super-low. I don't read showrunner interviews because Carina frankly reminds me of Marti Noxon (and Buffy fans will know that is NOT a compliment), and I'm kind of just here because I like enough of the characters/actors that this feels like a nice way to spend an hour each week, for only a 13-episode season.

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We´ll see how being stuck in limbo is going to change Max, it´s going to be bad.

I really think using Noah's heart is probably NOT the best idea and that's probably why Max doesn't want it to happen- I'm guessing he feels like Noah will be resurrected in part along with him.

I do feel like Dark Max vs. Good Max is where this show is kind of headed towards.

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1 hour ago, methodwriter85 said:

The reference to Jimmy from Degrassi becoming a rapper made me smile.

Made me smile too

 

1 hour ago, methodwriter85 said:

wonder if Rosa will laugh her ass off when she sees that the Kardashians are still being kept up with now and Trump is now president? LOL.

I think the show Manifest (in which a plane full of people returns after 5½ years) had a line about a reality show presidente.


 

1 hour ago, methodwriter85 said:

really think using Noah's heart is probably NOT the best idea and that's probably why Max doesn't want it to happen- I'm guessing he feels like Noah will be resurrected in part along with him.

I do feel like Dark Max vs. Good Max is where this show is kind of headed towards

Yes, exactly what I was thinking. 
Hopefully Liz will quickly realize the Noah heart problem and swap it out with Porky Pig’s and then Max won’t stutter too often, heh.
Remember how frustrated OG Future Max made us over making Liz fake-cheat on Max to break his heart? 😢😞😒🙁😩
I kept thinking Isabel’s expressions of needing Max in this episode could be a set up for some not-sibling attachment but only after reading your post @methodwriter85 (okay to blame you? LOL) did I realize they’re probably going to have Max with Noah’s heart try to seduce Isabel and/or Rosa.  😫😖😵😑😱

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Made me smile too

 

I think the show Manifest (in which a plane full of people returns after 5½ years) had a line about a reality show presidente.


 

Yes, exactly what I was thinking. 
Hopefully Liz will quickly realize the Noah heart problem and swap it out with Porky Pig’s and then Max won’t stutter too often, heh.
Remember how frustrated OG Future Max made us over making Liz fake-cheat on Max to break his heart? 😢😞😒🙁😩
I kept thinking Isabel’s expressions of needing Max in this episode could be a set up for some not-sibling attachment but only after reading your post @methodwriter85 (okay to blame you? LOL) did I realize they’re probably going to have Max with Noah’s heart try to seduce Isabel and/or Rosa.  😫😖😵😑😱

 

 

 

         I imagine the writers could very well give us an unexpected twist and reveal Max and Isobel are not related...that would be icky though, they grew up together as siblings anyway.

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5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I realize they’re probably going to have Max with Noah’s heart try to seduce Isabel and/or Rosa.  😫😖😵😑😱

 

I both hate and love this idea lol.

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7 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I'm picturing Matt Barr. The CW likes Matt Barr,

Great Blue God Beebo no.. Plz.. He's still part of The sleepy hollow season that made me want to nuke Hollywood for its treatment of the main Actress who again was a WOC... I'd prefer into to see that again... And  lest we forget he was the creepy not-brother on One tree hill ( looking back not sure why my parent let me watch that at my young age)....  I know bringing anyone else is just a pit stop to the inevitable max/Liz reunion... And bringing in a MOC to just evwntually lose the Love Interest to the white knight is infuriating yet par for the course on the network... I still rather have a MOC play the ex as long as he's not some super bitter bad guy.. In fact I'd prefer of he remained sympathetic and made Liz look like a Jerk for a bit.. Then I guess move on or something I dunno... At least we'd get an IR relationship that involved just minorities... Because you know it does happen... My dating history is proof of that

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1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

Great Blue God Beebo no.. Plz.. He's still part of The sleepy hollow season that made me want to nuke Hollywood for its treatment of the main Actress who again was a WOC... I'd prefer into to see that again... And  lest we forget he was the creepy not-brother on One tree hill ( looking back not sure why my parent let me watch that at my young age)....  I know bringing anyone else is just a pit stop to the inevitable max/Liz reunion... And bringing in a MOC to just evwntually lose the Love Interest to the white knight is infuriating yet par for the course on the network... I still rather have a MOC play the ex as long as he's not some super bitter bad guy.. In fact I'd prefer of he remained sympathetic and made Liz look like a Jerk for a bit.. Then I guess move on or something I dunno... At least we'd get an IR relationship that involved just minorities... Because you know it does happen... My dating history is proof of that

        If I remember correctly, Liz´s ex´s name was Diego. I went back and read an article where Jeanine said something about the writers thinking about maybe bringing the ex back into Liz´s life, and she suggested they cast a black Latino, to use that as an opportunity to explore colorism in the Latino community. I think they nixed the ex idea for this season, but it´s possible they revisit it in season 3, who knows, it would be interesting for them to tackle that issue, I don´t think a lot of people know about colorism.

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26 minutes ago, Bloga said:

        If I remember correctly, Liz´s ex´s name was Diego. I went back and read an article where Jeanine said something about the writers thinking about maybe bringing the ex back into Liz´s life, and she suggested they cast a black Latino, to use that as an opportunity to explore colorism in the Latino community. I think they nixed the ex idea for this season, but it´s possible they revisit it in season 3, who knows, it would be interesting for them to tackle that issue, I don´t think a lot of people know about colorism.

An Afro Latino would be an inspired choice.. But the nuances and subtleties around that... Dunno how much I trust the show... Cuz an afro- Dominican or Afro- puerto Rican here in brooklyn.. Prob has a diff Outlook than say an Afro-peruvian or Afro-Mexican in the south west.... Still colorism in all of our minority communities is something that should be explored a bit.. Tho the CW as a network doesnt exactly have a shining record in that regard... 

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7 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

An Afro Latino would be an inspired choice.. But the nuances and subtleties around that... Dunno how much I trust the show... Cuz an afro- Dominican or Afro- puerto Rican here in brooklyn.. Prob has a diff Outlook than say an Afro-peruvian or Afro-Mexican in the south west.... Still colorism in all of our minority communities is something that should be explored a bit.. Tho the CW as a network doesnt exactly have a shining record in that regard... 

      Yeah, they have no problem touching on these "controversial" subjects, but lack the talent to really make these issues justice. There is no subtletly, no attention to detail, that´s reflected even in their casting choices...like you said, different groups within the Latino communities have different outlooks and behaviors towards colorism depending on a lot of different factors, and sometimes they could try harder at being more specific, specially in their casting choices, I mean, Jeanine is lovely, I really like her, she´s a good actress but she´s Cuban, I´m pretty sure she would be considered white in Cuba, also, every time i hear her say Rosa and pretty much anything in Spanish, I can tell she´s Cuban, she should work on that accent; Amber, who plays Rosa, isn´t even Latina, the lady who plays the sheriff, her name escapes me, she isn´t Mexican American either, I know they are actors, but this story is so specifically that of a Mexican American woman in a bordertown in New Mexico...I miss someone would have made a bigger effort at at least making sure the actors are more specific, not just generic Latinos 

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The way I explain it to ppl who don't know about colorism or just Afro-Latinx folks in general is to tell them hypothetically  go back in time 200 years or so... This person would or wouldn't be free.. This person would or wouldn't have restricted access to things based on their skin and genetic makeup/ appearance ( as folks who can pass have "fooled" many of those systems) Jeanine would most def fall into the Free category... Didn't know the sheriff wasn't Mexican -American... Tho don't recall her ever emphasizing her accent( Presuming she has one) is she at least central American descent?...  I knew the actress playing Rosa was Native American at least on her dad's side as he's an actor as well... I think she just did well with the audition.. Looks so much like the lead.. And I guess genetically there is some overlap tween our native Americans here in the US and the folks in Mexico... And what's really wild is... On lots of modern Mexican shows Rosa and Liz would be the darker more ethnic looking actors compared to all the blue/green eyed euro looking actors on the screen... That ethno European/white supremacy/ standard of beauty runs deeeeeeeeep

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6 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

The way I explain it to ppl who don't know about colorism or just Afro-Latinx folks in general is to tell them hypothetically  go back in time 200 years or so... This person would or wouldn't be free.. This person would or wouldn't have restricted access to things based on their skin and genetic makeup/ appearance ( as folks who can pass have "fooled" many of those systems) Jeanine would most def fall into the Free category... Didn't know the sheriff wasn't Mexican -American... Tho don't recall her ever emphasizing her accent( Presuming she has one) is she at least central American descent?...  I knew the actress playing Rosa was Native American at least on her dad's side as he's an actor as well... I think she just did well with the audition.. Looks so much like the lead.. And I guess genetically there is some overlap tween our native Americans here in the US and the folks in Mexico... And what's really wild is... On lots of modern Mexican shows Rosa and Liz would be the darker more ethnic looking actors compared to all the blue/green eyed euro looking actors on the screen... That ethno European/white supremacy/ standard of beauty runs deeeeeeeeep

             What I meant re: the accent was Jeanine´s way of pronouncing Spanish words, specially the way she rolls her rs is very different from the way other Spanish speakers do, specifically Mexican people or people of Mexican descent, it´s just a little thing, really, and most people don´t notice it, but it was a bit sad for me that the people in charge wouldn´t be a bit more adamant about authenticity, it´s a show where the latinos are of Mexican descent, let´s make sure their Spanish sounds Mexican...I agree with you, Latin American soap operas are the most blatant example of colorism there is, it´s quite insane, it´s funny it´s the complete opposite in American shows, it seems like there is one type of Latino (someone with visible mixed Native American and European heritage) and casting a black Latino or a white Latino is most of the time out of the question (granted, white latinos can go audition for white characters, so it´s not a matter of lack of opportunity) There´s this really handsome black Cuban actor, Laz Alonso, I swear I´ve only ever seen him play a Cuban character once, he always plays black Americans. I think it´s beginning to change, but people need to be educated in the diversity that exists within the latino community.

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Yeah I remember Lazy playing Cuban on.. That breakout kings show... And on her accent I get you.. I grew up in Brooklyn mainly around dominicans & puerto Ricans.. At least when it came to Spanish speakers there were other countries in the Latin American circle.. But most of those folks identified as west Indian more so than Latinx.... So when I went to Cali for the first time and heard the folks there speaking Spanish... It sounded like a diff language 

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11 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Yeah I remember Lazy playing Cuban on.. That breakout kings show... And on her accent I get you.. I grew up in Brooklyn mainly around dominicans & puerto Ricans.. At least when it came to Spanish speakers there were other countries in the Latin American circle.. But most of those folks identified as west Indian more so than Latinx.... So when I went to Cali for the first time and heard the folks there speaking Spanish... It sounded like a diff language 

         I mean, there´s over 500 million Spanish speakers, there´s room for a lot of variation, same with other languages, English specially, nobody bats an eye when people talk about different English accents, it´s common knowledge. 

         To be honest, if the showrunner hadn´t made such a big deal of proclaiming her commitment to authentic representation etc, I wouldn´t take issue reg. accents and casting, it´s just a show after all, right? it can´t all be exactly accurate, but since she goes on and on about it, I started paying attention, and  I figured out early on that commitment to accurate representation only applied to lgtbq characters, which, really, it´s necessary, but it didn´t so much matter when it came to the representation of Mexicans and Mexican Americans. I think Amber is brilliant, and what you said about the ethnic overlap between Indigenous American people and Latinos makes a lot of sense, but in a show whose showrunner prides herself about talking to experts, making sure it´s a realistic portrayal of the immigrant experience, the queer experience, things like casting matter, there has to be tons of talented Mexican American, young actresses out there, it can´t be that hard, if they couldn´t find one, then they could have broadened the search, Amber and Jeanine look quite similar, but that isn´t all that matters. I mean, Carina was all offended when someone asked her if all Manes siblings would be played by Indigenous actors, given she considers Tyler Blackburn to be Indigenous, which is really confusing to me, but she was adamant she had only considered Indigenous actors to play Manes men. I say this because she had no problem casting a non-Latina as a Mexican American, so it´s not commitment to accuracy across the board.

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On 3/28/2020 at 9:13 PM, CabotCove said:

And choosing an Interracial relationship with a black woman, in what seem to be a state and town with not many black people in it, is not the easy way. So no, Michael is not taking the easy way, either way.

Thank you for this cause it reminded me a few media folks when they were talking about A/M/M in S1 and somehow giving Maria all of this supposed privilege solely cause she is straight  [vs things being harder for Alex or Michael] while disregarding that a Black woman in a small town in not going to have all this privilege. I could not figure out if it was ignorance or something else but it was perplexing nonetheless when I would see it.

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On 3/28/2020 at 9:36 PM, CabotCove said:

cool but why is there doubt they were going there with them? We been told its a love triangle since season 1. I know Alex/Michael are super popular and that could very well sway the showrunners/writers to just make them endgame [CW shows tends to do that after all]. But sometimes the story being told on screen and what being said in fandom are two different things. 

Sure, endgame is the intention and they have a high chance to be, but its not over until its over. A character could die, an actor could leave the show...plans can change etc. 

 

But the reason there is doubt about going there for real with M&M is because the showrunner has pretty much flat out stated that Malex is endgame.  So as a M&M fan myself, it's irritating AND the writing hasn't really given M&M a fair shot. 

The other part that really pisses me off is how much of Maria's actual story from the books and OG Show is she just going to hand over to Alex? First her canon love interest and now her "investigate" storylines with Michael.  And at least those investigate storylines with Michael were hilarious because of their banter and the thrown togetherness of it - the energy when it's Alex and Michael investigating is just different.

I think that Michael/Maria having such explosive chemistry and natural acting chemistry together onscreen is happening in spite of what the showrunner wants - she's done plenty to sabotage Maria and snatch her storylines to give to Alex (and also Kyle).

That's why folks are surprised we even got M&M at all - CaM all but announced beforehand that Malex was her endgame.

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