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Tiger King

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50 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

One thing about the docu not having Carole advocates ... I could be wrong but maybe no big cat advocates want to deal with her? I have the feeling that she's very narcissistic and her circle of people doesn't extend much beyond her husband. My guess is many animal rights advocates didn't want to bother with her. Even PETA who were interviewed did not say much about her.

That was totally my take. Maybe they hated her outfits as much as I did. 🙂 Tim Gunn would question her taste level. 
 

Joe Exotic (OMG typing that name, lol) and all of his cronies are just unmitigated scum. Anyone who took one look at literally everything at that “zoo” and didn’t run away crying is at least a little sick in the head. I reaallly wish there weren’t plans to fictionalize  this. As fascinating as it was, and as fun as it is to snark, I’d hate for these folks to get “cash me outside” fame. 

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Do we really need a fictional movie of this mess? Truth is stranger and more entertaining than fiction, I think this documentary covered it just fine.....here we are now, entertain us.

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18 minutes ago, kassa said:

This was a cavalcade of lowlifes - except for the keeper who lost the arm, it was one jaw dropping personality after another. But I think the reason Carol has touched such a nerve is that we've all known a Carol (likely more than one.) 

Most of them are sociopaths - she's just the kind of sociopath law abiding citizens would encounter most frequently. Her energy is "off" but in casual acquaintance you'd write it off. If stuck working with or being related to her it would wear on you over time as you watched her collect and discard (or be discarded by) people.

So if she's getting a lot of heat, I think it's because she's carrying the baggage of being a pretty specific archetype of someone you need to avoid. 

Oh, and that comment about what you'd REALLY put on somebody's clothes to trigger an attack was pretty dang specific [insert imitation human laughter].

I think the reason people are hating on Carole is that in real life if we met Joe or Doc we'd either run away screaming or point and laugh. Carole is a recognizable type -- that perfectly nice-looking lady who is passionate about something many people are passionate about (animal rights), but is also a self-aggrandizing narcissist. I think many people have been burned/conned by Caroles in our lives.

She actually reminds me of the time I worked on a political campaign and worked for a politician who on paper stood for all the right things but was cold, mean, and abusive behind the scenes. 

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16 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think the reason people are hating on Carole is that in real life if we met Joe or Doc we'd either run away screaming or point and laugh. Carole is a recognizable type -- that perfectly nice-looking lady who is passionate about something many people are passionate about (animal rights), but is also a self-aggrandizing narcissist. I think many people have been burned/conned by Caroles in our lives.

She actually reminds me of the time I worked on a political campaign and worked for a politician who on paper stood for all the right things but was cold, mean, and abusive behind the scenes. 

Agree 100% the Carols of the world are far more dangerous 

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1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

One thing about the docu not having Carole advocates ... I could be wrong but maybe no big cat advocates want to deal with her? I have the feeling that she's very narcissistic and her circle of people doesn't extend much beyond her husband. My guess is many animal rights advocates didn't want to bother with her. Even PETA who were interviewed did not say much about her.

Honestly, PETA is such a problematic organization that they hurt any argument similar to Carole.**  Carol's cause is noble even if she is deeply unlikable.   If the doc was really supposed to be an expose of the big cat world a la Blackfish, then they should have footage from someone else.  Some experts in big cats to explain why random people owning, breeding, and selling these cats is horrific.

 

**PETAs stance on the tigers in these zoo's is probably along the lines of their views on pittbulls. 

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If I had to defend a Carol in court, I’d call Joe as star witness. This guy. This guy thinks she did it. 

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3 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think the reason people are hating on Carole is that in real life if we met Joe or Doc we'd either run away screaming or point and laugh. Carole is a recognizable type -- that perfectly nice-looking lady who is passionate about something many people are passionate about (animal rights), but is also a self-aggrandizing narcissist. I think many people have been burned/conned by Caroles in our lives.

She actually reminds me of the time I worked on a political campaign and worked for a politician who on paper stood for all the right things but was cold, mean, and abusive behind the scenes. 

 

3 hours ago, sainte-chapelle said:

Agree 100% the Carols of the world are far more dangerous 

I too prefer someone whose crazy shows on the outside so I know to stay away, although I'm not sure if Carole did kill her husband. However she's obviously shady and not to be trusted. 

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Some darker stories about Joe revealed. Sadly more about the animal abuse not shown. 

 

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12 hours ago, kassa said:

This was a cavalcade of lowlifes - except for the keeper who lost the arm, it was one jaw dropping personality after another. But I think the reason Carol has touched such a nerve is that we've all known a Carol (likely more than one.) 

Most of them are sociopaths - she's just the kind of sociopath law abiding citizens would encounter most frequently. Her energy is "off" but in casual acquaintance you'd write it off. If stuck working with or being related to her it would wear on you over time as you watched her collect and discard (or be discarded by) people.

One-hundred million percent agree with this. My husband and I were saying the exact same thing last night. Carole is one of those people who presents herself as above-board, but you inherently get a bad vibe about her and have no doubts she'd throw you to the wolves if it was to her benefit. I'm not surprised no one in the animal world came to her defense. 

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20 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

One-hundred million percent agree with this. My husband and I were saying the exact same thing last night. Carole is one of those people who presents herself as above-board, but you inherently get a bad vibe about her and have no doubts she'd throw you to the wolves if it was to her benefit. I'm not surprised no one in the animal world came to her defense. 

I think in Carol’s case, she would be more likely to throw you to the lions and tigers...and I mean literally.

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Okay.  I binged the show and watched all episodes.  This film reminds me so much of the movie Best In Show.  In case, you've never seen it, here's a trailer.  It's very similar.  Still hard to digest Tiger King as real. 

So, can someone tell me how they had footage for this film if it was burned in the fire? Also, who was filming things like Joe in his attorney's office?  Why would Rick Kirkham, producer, leave the only film in the alligator house/studio with no back up, knowing it was a issue of contention with Joe? Seems BS to me.  Also, wouldn't it have been digital?  So many things about this project seem fishy to me and I really wonder how much in this film is BS.  But, I'll buy in for this limited purpose, based on what I've seen.

I must be rare, because, I didn't have much of an issue with Carol.  She seemed to conduct her nonprofit within the bounds of the  law.  I can't imagine being hit with the public insults, slander, threats and ridicule that Joe dished out at her for years. He showed himself to be a ruthless psycho.  There's no proof offered yet that she killed her husband, so, let it go.  The husband's adult children and wife were pathetic.  The children admitted there was a trust for them. THAT property passes outside of a Will.  Plus, there is no rule that you have to inherit from a parent when you're an adult. And, the exwife had no rights to his property.  They seemed sour and revengeful and I have no faith in a word they say.  

 IMO, the other criminals who Joe associated with may have issues, but, they paled in comparison to his ruthless and vile nature. I'm not sure why they seem to be so enthralled with OTHER cast members possibly be arrested. It seems that Joe was the one intent on killing Carol.  And, the Myrtle Beach safari was raided in December 2019 and they are still open for business.  According to their website they are closed due to the virus situation, but, I thought they were open yesterday.  They are accepting reservations.   I haven't found anything about any charges as a result of the raid. The leader, who is certainly a pompous asp, seems very deluded, but, he's not trying to murder people. If he's not treating animals humanely, then, he should account for that.  Anyone to fall under his spell really is pitiful, because, he's not a charmer at all, imo.  

I have no idea how people afford to maintain large cats as pets. It's really disturbing though. I also have no idea why it's such a thrill for people to hold baby tigers.  I've read for many years why wild animals aren't pets. I'm not sure why a certain sect of people put ego over respect for the animals.  I'm not a PETA person and don't really know much about their positions, but, just common sense tells you some things, like, it's not right to house huge sea animals and land animals as pets or for entertainment. 

I can't see much going forward based on Joe's testimony.  He has zero credibility and as distasteful as the rest of the cast is, he's void of any redeeming qualities, in this film, imo.  I will say that he has a nice voice. Too bad, he didn't just pick singing as a career and stuck with that. 

Edited by SunnyBeBe
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34 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

This was a cavalcade of lowlifes - except for the keeper who lost the arm, it was one jaw dropping personality after another

Seriously. Plus the one who left Doc and moved to Iowa and got that cute little house with the nice, comfy chair. She seemed sane, likable and like she cared about animals. 

I was mildly offended when I saw Netflix calling this a 99% match for me, but I can't say I wasn't entertained. I'm disappointed Joe didn't actually write/song his country songs, but considering I thought the songs seemed way too subdued and generally decent quality in the vein of Joe Diffie and Toby Keith, I shouldn't be surprised. Wait, does that mean he lip synced at Travis's funeral?

I think Carole probably killed her husband. The fact that his family and lawyer seemed to think and she included "disappearance" in the power of attorney document seemed suspicious. Although, I was spoiled on the "she fed her husband to tigers" theory and spent the first few episodes way too concerned for her current husband.

I need to track down some Siegfried and Roy. I think I need to watch some comparatively normal gay guys with tigers as a palate cleanser.

Edited by bettername2come
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Yeah, having Disappearance in the DPOA was rather odd. I've never seen that either.  I know they said that Carol prepared it, but, really?  It was notarized, so inquire through the notary about the circumstances. .  If Carol did  prepare it, she would have it on her computer and there would be a record of where she downloaded it from on the hard drive.  I would be curious as to when the term was added.  If the document is two pages, and the signature is on the second page, unless it's initialed, you could add that term, then substitute it for the original page one.  Unless, there is a copy somewhere, it would be difficult to prove.  That does look suspect to me. But, it seems it is not enough to show that Carol was involved in the disappearance. 

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12 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

I must be rare, because, I didn't have much of an issue with Carol.  She seemed to conduct her nonprofit within the bounds of the  law.  I can't imagine being hit with the public insults, slander, threats and ridicule that Joe dished out at her for years. He showed himself to be a ruthless psycho.  There's no proof offered yet that she killed her husband, so, let it go.  The husband's adult children and wife were pathetic.  The children admitted there was a trust for them. THAT property passes outside of a Will.  Plus, there is no rule that you have to inherit from a parent when you're an adult. And, the exwife had no rights to his property.  They seemed sour and revengeful and I have no faith in a word they say.  

 

The family actually cracks me up.  They are playing the role of grieving family while they are just upset about the money and not Don.  The ex-wife knows Don cheated on her repeatedly over the course of their marriage.  Any man that picks up a woman at gunpoint walking down the street and takes her to a hotel room is not faithful.  She should have gotten hers in their divorce. 

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17 hours ago, Fostersmom said:

Well, to be fair, the only defenders of the tiger breeders were other tiger breeders. There was a bunch of them, against one of Carole, the anti tiger breeder. Of course they weren't going to defend her, they make their life breeding cubs for cute pics and then basically killing off what they can't sell before they get too big to take pics of. I'd love to know how many of the animals at Carole's sanctuary were cubs from Joe or Doc originally. 

I may be misremembering but I think in the podcast they discuss that most of Carole's big cats are ones she purchased herself in the early days when she was basically doing the same thing as Joe....can anyone verify?

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That's what I remember, too, and they even touched on it in this doc.  She and her late husband were purchasing big cats and other exotic animals just because they wanted them.  They were not rescues.  

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On 3/31/2020 at 11:19 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I’m still not over the fact that his first wife was 14 when he married her. 

Didn't she say he was underage as well at the time though? Not that I'm defending him, but still!

What a fucking ride this show was. I was spoiled on a lot of the crazier things but it was still insane and surprising to watch.

I felt bad for the animals for sure, but I also really felt for all the obviously damaged people that Joe and co. took advantage of. In general, they mostly seemed like they were just broken people who got swept up in the manipulation of these criminals. Like really, all of Joe's employees that were in this, like Saff, the zoo manager guy, the campaign manager, and Joe's husbands made me sad. The one guy, obviously drunk, recounting seeing Joe shoot one of the tigers was depressing as hell. 

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13 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Didn't she say he was underage as well at the time though? Not that I'm defending him, but still!

Yes, he was 17 and she was 14, so their parents had to give permission. 

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15 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Didn't she say he was underage as well at the time though? Not that I'm defending him, but still!

He was 17 and she was 14. They both had to have their parents’ permission to get marry since they were underage. 

36 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

I may be misremembering but I think in the podcast they discuss that most of Carole's big cats are ones she purchased herself in the early days when she was basically doing the same thing as Joe....can anyone verify?

IIRC that’s how it started with Don and Carole. They bought a lynx or bobcat and found out that the guy who sold it to them bred them for fur. They started buying exotic cats and breeding them. Some of the conflict between Carole and Don before he disappeared was that she didn’t want to breed them anymore. 

Tigers can live 20 years in captivity so there may be some left from the earlier days of Carole and Don’s purchasing them but I think Big Cat Rescue now only takes rescues.

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17 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I thought the same! I have huge dogs who've broken out of kennels a hell of a lot sturdier than those flimsy ass cages. That metal is barely a tick above chicken wire. 

 

It actually is much stronger than it looks...

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On 3/28/2020 at 11:42 AM, TrixieTrue said:

I was curious about why there was only one copy of Carol's husband's will. Wouldn't his attorney also have had one? It wasn't clear to me how much time had passed from his disappearance and when Carol went to the office and took the papers that where there. If it was only a day or so, that makes sense. But wouldn't law enforcement have looked at the office? That investigation was definitely poorly done.  

I agree with the others who say Carol isn't much better than all the others. 

 

& how could she change everything into her own name without him? That's super shady. If she can do that, what's to stop every jilted or disgruntled spouse from doing that?

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13 hours ago, lynxfx said:

Some darker stories about Joe revealed. Sadly more about the animal abuse not shown. 

 

It's too bad this footage was lost because I'm getting really fucking sick of the "Free Joe" crap I'm seeing out there.

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17 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

It's too bad this footage was lost because I'm getting really fucking sick of the "Free Joe" crap I'm seeing out there.

I agree. Just based on the footage in the doc he deserves prison. The stories of abuse just seals it. 

I'm still shocked at how cheap they were selling tiger cubs. $2k to $5k on average. Savannah house cats cost more than that with some hitting $20k. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, can someone tell me how they had footage for this film if it was burned in the fire?

The film destroyed in the fire was the footage for the reality show the one guy wanted to produce of Joe filming his own antics at the park.

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11 minutes ago, xaxat said:

The film destroyed in the fire was the footage for the reality show the one guy wanted to produce of Joe filming his own antics at the park.

So, I'm not sure I follow, since the events the old producer described were the same one events we saw, like Joe sitting on the throne with his cats, the cats attacking his shoes, Joe firing people, etc.  It was as if the producer would describe what he filmed and then we'd see it, but, later were told it was destroyed. 

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17 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Honestly, PETA is such a problematic organization that they hurt any argument similar to Carole.**  Carol's cause is noble even if she is deeply unlikable.   If the doc was really supposed to be an expose of the big cat world a la Blackfish, then they should have footage from someone else.  Some experts in big cats to explain why random people owning, breeding, and selling these cats is horrific.

I think this project started out as a big cat version of Blackfish, but the people putting up the money ended up insisting that it be focused on the crazy personalities of the tiger owners. At least, that's the rumor I've heard.

As for Carole, I wonder if there's anyone who can actually confirm that she tried to stop her husband from breeding the tigers?

It sounds like a very convenient explanation for her involvement in breeding - "Oh, that was all Don's doing, and I had them spayed and neutered every chance I got."

It's possible, but I'm not willing to take her word for it.

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So, I'm not sure I follow, since the events the old producer described were the same one events we saw, like Joe sitting on the throne with his cats, the cats attacking his shoes, Joe firing people, etc.  It was as if the producer would describe what he filmed and then we'd see it, but, later were told it was destroyed. 

The only thing I could think is that whoever made this documentary happened to be filming concurrently (at least for some of the time) with that guy who was filming the reality show for Joe.

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2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, I'm not sure I follow, since the events the old producer described were the same one events we saw, like Joe sitting on the throne with his cats, the cats attacking his shoes, Joe firing people, etc.  It was as if the producer would describe what he filmed and then we'd see it, but, later were told it was destroyed. 

The guy who was filming the reality show said in the interview with David Spade (posted a couple of pages back) that there were other people who were filming the filming of the reality show. It was basically people filming the people who were filming Joe & co doing their crazy stuff.

Crazy that people have been filming Joe for years. There must be tons of unseen footage. More than enough to make a sequel to this.

I hang my head in shame that I will be all over the sequel if and when it drops. I blame Covid.

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2 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

The guy who was filming the reality show said in the interview with David Spade (posted a couple of pages back) that there were other people who were filming the filming of the reality show. It was basically people filming the people who were filming Joe & co doing their crazy stuff.

Crazy that people have been filming Joe for years. There must be tons of unseen footage. More than enough to make a sequel to this.

I hang my head in shame that I will be all over the sequel if and when it drops. I blame Covid.

You and me both! 

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8 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I will say that he has a nice voice. Too bad, he didn't just pick singing as a career and stuck with that. 

I pretty much agree with you @SunnyBea except for this last sentence.  That's not his voice in the videos, he's lip synching. It the voice of the song writers who Joe paid to write the songs.   

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6 hours ago, AheadofStraight said:

It's too bad this footage was lost because I'm getting really fucking sick of the "Free Joe" crap I'm seeing out there.

You and me both. Joe is a liar, user and manipulator. I don't understand this cult of personality that's developed around him. He didn't give a shit about his animals, as evidenced by him siphoning zoo money into his political campaign, and selling tigers like they were used furniture when he got into hot water. Why do so many see him as a victim?

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You and me both. Joe is a liar, user and manipulator.

Travis's mother nailed it when she said that Joe is always acting. Everything is a performance- there isn't a shred of genuine behavior in him. It reminds me a lot of the way Darren Criss played Andrew Cunannan in The Assassination of Gianni Versace. Nothing is real and everything is about image.

 

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An article aboiut the weird aesthetics of Tiger King:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/arts/television/tiger-king-style.html

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In the case of Exotic and the animal rights activist Carole Baskin — dedicated enemies with many uncanny similarities — both seem to enjoy becoming animal-esque themselves. Baskin, painted in the series as something of a do-gooder villain, dresses almost exclusively in animal print clothing. (Every now and again, she intersects with au courant style.) It scans as an act of sympathy for the cats at her sanctuary, as marketing savvy, and also as a bit of delusion, a sort of cross-species passing.

 

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I only got thru one episode of this because of the animal abuse  and then I came here  and found that the show was bashing Big Cat Rescue. Let me be clear, I don't know anything about Carole's personal life, and don't care, but I know how the cats are taken care of at BCR and it's nothing like those other two freak shows. Remember the scene where about a dozen tigers are in a single cage fighting over the food? That doesn't happen at BCR. Every cat has it's own fairly large enclosure unless they had been raised together before they came to the sanctuary. There's also a "vacation" area about as big as a football field, where the cats take turns spending two weeks running and playing.

At BCR, the cats aren't led around on leashes and made to perform for visitors. No human touches them at all, unless they need a vet. Visitors can come and take a tour and watch the keepers feed the cats.

If anyone's interested in what BCR is really all about, here's a link to their youtube channel. Judge for yourself:

Big Cat Rescue

Here's a link to one of my favorite stories about Hoover, a rescued circus tiger

Hoover

 

edited to fix links. 

 

 

 

Edited by Lokiberry
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I would attempt to link it here, but work blocks Reddit.  Someone who interned at Big Cat Rescue posted on Tiger King's Reddit yesterday.  The lengthy post was positive for the facility with a good collection of sources linked in the post.  It was very informative.  

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Anything put out by Carol is going to show her in the best light, whether it's her livestream or youtube channel or blog.  I'd take anything from those sources with a huge grain of salt.  She and her late husband started all this because they wanted to own big cats and other exotic animals - there was no higher purpose, no greater good.  They bought animals.  I will give her credit for no longer breeding them and selling cubs.  And of all the private farm, big cat people on this show she is the lesser of multiple evils, but she is hardly a saint.

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I have no doubt that BCR is a better facility than Joe's or Doc's. Carole is still a wackadoodle though lol.

I forgot to mention this, the whole time I was watching this I just kept wondering if the horrible little roadside zoo that's near me bought any of their animals from any of these people. I feel like they probably did. They recently had their tigers and a lion taken away after PETA like sued them or something.

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2 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

Remember the scene where about a dozen tigers are in a single cage fighting over the food?

That snippet horrified me. Those poor animals deserve to be fed properly and they deserve to be fed enough. Instead there was a swirl of hungry tigers all fighting over the piddling amount of food they were given while the humans blamed Walmart, as if it's Walmart's responsibility to have enough rejected meat to feed all of the animals.

The same episode showed Joe taking a newborn tiger from its mother by pulling it through the fence. I couldn't believe he had the fucking gall to complain that he couldn't sleep because all of the baby tigers were crying. That's because YOU TOOK THEM FROM THEIR MOTHERS.

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5 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

I only got thru one episode of this because of the animal abuse  and then I came here  and found that the show was bashing Big Cat Rescue. Let me be clear, I don't know anything about Carole's personal life, and don't care, but I know how the cats are taken care of at BCR and it's nothing like those other two freak shows. Remember the scene where about a dozen tigers are in a single cage fighting over the food? That doesn't happen at BCR. Every cat has it's own fairly large enclosure unless they had been raised together before they came to the sanctuary. There's also a "vacation" area about as big as a football field, where the cats take turns spending two weeks running and playing.

At BCR, the cats aren't led around on leashes and made to perform for visitors. No human touches them at all, unless they need a vet. Visitors can come and take a tour and watch the keepers feed the cats.

If anyone's interested in what BCR is really all about, here's a link to their youtube channel. Judge for yourself:

Big Cat Rescue

Here's a link to one of my favorite stories about Hoover, a rescued circus tiger

Hoover

 

edited to fix links. 

 

 

 

I totally agree.  It is not fair or accurate to compare Big Cat Rescue to these roadside zoos.  I have visited BCR and found it to be well run.  The enclosures are very spacious and the cats are well fed and taken care of.  Of course it would be better if these cats could be in the wild, but that is not possible...

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On 4/2/2020 at 11:57 AM, peachmangosteen said:

Didn't she say he was underage as well at the time though? Not that I'm defending him, but still!

Yes they were both teens. She was 14 and he was 17. His parents had to sign the papers as well because he was also underage. Likely she was pregnant and their parents wanted them to get married. 

 

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

That snippet horrified me. Those poor animals deserve to be fed properly and they deserve to be fed enough. Instead there was a swirl of hungry tigers all fighting over the piddling amount of food they were given while the humans blamed Walmart, as if it's Walmart's responsibility to have enough rejected meat to feed all of the animals.

The same episode showed Joe taking a newborn tiger from its mother by pulling it through the fence. I couldn't believe he had the fucking gall to complain that he couldn't sleep because all of the baby tigers were crying. That's because YOU TOOK THEM FROM THEIR MOTHERS.

I know! Those poor cats must be starving. It’s got to cost a fortune to feed them just enough to keep them alive. 

 

More info about the series. https://youtu.be/UNAiERxA6Wo

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3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes they were both teens. She was 14 and he was 17. His parents had to sign the papers as well because he was also underage. Likely she was pregnant and their parents wanted them to get married. 

Yeah, she really did not look much older than her daughters.

I kind of wonder what Carole's daughter really thinks of all of this. Maybe Carole bought her a BMW as a 16th birthday present to keep her mouth shut. LOL.

One of my favorite YouTuber True Crime vloggers just did an episode on Don Lewis:

 

Edited by methodwriter85
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1 hour ago, methodwriter85 said:

Yeah, she really did not look much older than her daughters.

Yes I thought that immediately when they appeared on the screen, so learning they were teen parents didn’t surprise me. 

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Here's a link to a video with Carole talking what's happening at BCR with coronavirus, about Tiger King, and at the end there's a little about her husband. It also gives a look at some of the cats, and what their enclosures look like. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4n8RbaUmWk

 

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10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

That snippet horrified me. Those poor animals deserve to be fed properly and they deserve to be fed enough. Instead there was a swirl of hungry tigers all fighting over the piddling amount of food they were given while the humans blamed Walmart, as if it's Walmart's responsibility to have enough rejected meat to feed all of the animals.

The same episode showed Joe taking a newborn tiger from its mother by pulling it through the fence. I couldn't believe he had the fucking gall to complain that he couldn't sleep because all of the baby tigers were crying. That's because YOU TOOK THEM FROM THEIR MOTHERS.

I only got as far as these scenes above.  I literally lost it when I saw that newborn tiger being dragged across the dirt by a hook, while hearing Joe yelling to the cameraman to "get up by her ass. I think another one's gonna come out".  It's something that I wish I hadn't seen.  

I guess I'm uninformed, but I always thought there were laws against animal abuse. And what I saw, was absolutely animal abuse.

As for the humans, they can pretty much all drop dead. Or, get eaten by hungry tigers. 

 

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Another point that I wanted to make about Carol, who I do not know and have no vested interest in, is that after extended and extensive harassment, she finally took legal action against Joe.  She operated according to  what was the legal thing to do. He put everything in jeopardy with his antics.  Joe attempted to circumvent the judgment by transferring assets.  And when that guy called and offered dirt on Joe, Carol and her husband called law enforcement. She and her husband even negotiated reasonable settlements, while Joe flew off the handle and refused.

Edited by SunnyBeBe
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I just finished the show. I felt like it was a real race to the bottom among pretty much all the big cat figureheads. What a slimy, unsettling group of people. 

I think Joe totally set his own studio on fire. I am pretty sure Carol had something to do with Don disappearing. Doc and Jeff both creeped me out beyond words. 

I thought there was a lot of karma in Joe ending up in a cage of his own making, though I think several other people profiled needed to be joining him. I also thought there was a lot of karma in all of Jeff's business deals blowing up in his face.

I felt terrible for the animals and the treatment they experienced. I also felt sorry for a lot of the vulnerable, overworked staffers at Joe's and Doc's parks. They seemed to care far more than their bosses did about the animals but weren't really in a position to buck the system or challenge authority. When they were rummaging through expired food from Wal-Mart and one of them was excited to find something still frozen? What a shameful way to treat people. (Carol's attitude toward her volunteers pissed me off, too, but it didn't seem quite as egregious.)

One of the parts that infuriated me the most was Travis's funeral. Joe in his clerical collar talking about Travis's balls in front of Travis's mother before he breaks into a shitty song. Erik--who I kept calling Kurt Cobain 2.0--looked more sincerely distraught about Travis's death than Joe did.  

The part that really turned me off with Joe had come earlier, though, when he took the newborn cub away from its mother and then bitched that he couldn't sleep because it was crying. No fucking shit, asshole! 

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Another point that I wanted to make about Carol, who I do not know and have no vested interest in, is that after extended and extensive harassment, she finally took legal action against Joe.  She operated according to  what was the legal to do. He put everything in jeopardy with his antics.  Joe attempted to circumvent the judgment by transferring assets.  And when that guy called and offered dirt on Joe, Carol and her husband called law enforcement. She and her husband even negotiated reasonable settlements, while Joe flew off the handle and refused.

Carol freaked me out on several points--but these things also crossed my mind too. As I noted earlier, I am pretty sure she was involved in her second husband's disappearance, but I was so disturbed by all the times Joe Exotic was filmed pretending to kill her, threatening to kill her, and doing stuff like reading her diary publicly. It was so petty, and though she certainly had things to say about him, it never seemed to descend to that level of high school nastiness. I was pleasantly surprised when they got the text message promising dirt on Joe that they referred it to authorities rather than taking the bait. 

I never knew what to make of Howard. Just when I was starting to think he was the most normal person on the show, their wedding pictures flashed on the screen. 

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On 4/1/2020 at 6:54 PM, Giant Misfit said:

From the "you can't make this up" files, Jeff Lowe was once sued by Prince:

 

Okay, this is officially my favorite part of this whole mess.

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Oh I also meant to add: Danny McBride was born to play Joe Exotic in the movie or miniseries version of whatever it is that's being produced. 

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On 3/28/2020 at 12:20 AM, Slovenly Muse said:

I hope so! I have to say, the treatment of Carole was one of the things that really bothered me about this series. The show seemed to want to draw a comparison between what she is doing and what Joe and Doc (and others) are doing (I guess in the interests of appearing balanced?), but it completely fails to explain the details that would clarify how Big Cat Rescue REALLY compares to Joe's operation. From what we were told, it seems like she really is running a legitimate sanctuary that provides a home for big cats that come from places like Joe's zoo, and protects them from abuse. Those tigers bred and born in captivity CAN'T be released into the wild, so where else are they supposed to go? Yes, tour groups can see the cats, but not nearly as intrusively, and we know how much it costs to feed and care for animals like that. Many animal rescue and rehabilitation centres charge admission and let visitors see the animals (from a non-intrusive distance) for just this reason.

In terms of treatment of the animals, Joe's zoo breeds and sells cubs. It has cub-petting and has humans interacting with the animals. Carole is leading a political campaign to nationally BAN cub-petting, breeding, and other abusive practices, and her sanctuary does not allow any interactions between humans and cats. From the framing in the series, they are made to look comparable, but the show has really failed to explain the conditions in which the cats were kept in the private zoos versus Carole's sanctuary. We didn't see or hear much about the specific acts of abuse taking place, or about cub-petting and why it's abusive, but surely taking wild animals to shopping malls and government buildings (or in suitcases to visit luxury hotels!!) is OBVIOUSLY more abusive and exploitative than the tours happening at Big Cat Rescue. The fact that the series failed to adequately explain these details, but just framed them side-by-side to make them look comparable was unfortunate.

Then there's the treatment of the employees. Doc Antle is running a sex cult, where he ropes in attractive teenage interns and "marries" them, then uses them as practically slave labour. Carole has a staff of volunteers who she doesn't even really know (and is clearly not extorting work or sex out of them through use of manipulation or drugs). How are these things comparable? Yes, big cats are exciting and wonderful, and people are passionate about them and WANT to work with them, and will make personal sacrifices for the chance to do so! But Joe and Doc are using this fact to exploit vulnerable people for cheap labour (and sex), while Carole has volunteers - people with free time who DO NOT depend upon her at all for income and basic needs, and whose treatment by her is never shown (or even suggested) to be unethical. This is not the same thing in the slightest!

Did she murder her husband? I'm inclined to say no! It seems preposterous to me to say that Carole killing him and feeding him to the tigers is the simplest or most likely explanation. The man was involved in the illegal world of international exotic animal breeding/buying/selling, he flew a plane without a licence, and had Alzheimer's. She was the LEAST dangerous thing about his life. Not saying she definitely didn't do it, but I'd need some MUCH more compelling evidence to believe there is an argument to be made that she did it. Besides, it is very difficult for one person to kill a grown man, then move and dispose of a body, even with tigers conveniently nearby, all on her own, without leaving any evidence. I don't think the practicalities of this were considered at all in the series, which just seems intentionally misleading. It was all gossip, based on speculation and VERY thin circumstantial evidence. Did she take advantage of his disappearance to take charge of his estate, enrich herself, and cut off family members who might be entitled to a share? Sure looks like it! But that's a completely different issue from MURDER. I needed more than salacious gossip to make that idea seem legitimate.

Not to mention, her comment in the article linked above that she was misled about the nature of the documentary (that it would be primarily about animal rights and exposing abuses in the animals-for-entertainment industry) COMPLETELY tracks with what the filmmakers have said they wanted this project to be about, before Netflix pushed them to recentre on the outrageous personalities involved. Why do we not consider her other comments credible?

I finished this series feeling like Carole was a wackadoo, a bit self-serving (or at least not as altruistic as she wanted to appear), something of an egomaniac (nearly everyone we see in the big cat world is), and potentially greedy and opportunistic based on what happened with her late husband's estate, but at least it seemed clear that she was a genuine advocate for animal rights and was actively working to ban and criminalize operations like Joe's. I've found it quite shocking, actually, to come online and see that so many people's takeaway from the series is "Carole is the worst person on this show," or "Carole definitely killed her husband," or "Carole is as bad as Joe if not worse." I find all the vitriol surprising and perplexing! And it's definitely a failure of the filmmakers if the audience spends nearly seven hours watching a man hurl misogynistic vitriol at a woman, abusing and SHOOTING a blow-up sex doll stand-in of her, and comes away thinking, "SHE'S the real villain of the story!" especially without any concrete evidence that she is acting wrongly.

If I were her, I would sue Netflix for failing to include clarifying details about her life and work, as much as for framing what they DID include in such a way. I'm really appalled by the viewer reactions to her portrayal, and I really feel for her, and especially for the cats in her care and the legislative work she is doing to protect animals, because they will surely be impacted by the hit her reputation has taken. As much as I enjoyed the series, seeing these comments online has really ended my experience of Tiger King on a sour note.

While I don't 100% agree with your assessment (Carol was breeding cats at one point), this is pretty typical of online attitudes about any female leading character in a fictional series. So why would reality be any different?

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