S02.E16 Perspectives

[Whimsy]

Quote

Max, Bloom and Reynolds frantically recount a patient's past encounter that could throw them into a massive lawsuit. Meanwhile, Iggy confronts a local middle school about its teaching policies, and Kapoor lets his superstitions take over.

Original air date 3/10/20

[nixgirl28]

Wth kind of school has a shooter drill with an actual, although fake, gunman shooting blanks into classrooms and students pretending to be shot? They didn't tell the teachers about this drill but a teenage girl was in on it? Ok. Ridiculous.

Shouldn't Ella have checked with the person who's apartment she's living in before bringing home a pet? 

[LittleIggy]

I’ve heard of those type of drills traumatizing students but never heard of one where a student pretended to be shot. https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2019/09/07/why-schools-should-end-active-shooter-drills-immediately/#2d7986272a92
 

I thought Dr. Kapoor was going to object to the cat because Ella was pregnant and thus he would have to change the litter box. Was it just because of the cat’s name? I think I missed something.

[preeya]

22 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

I’ve heard of those type of drills traumatizing students but never heard of one where a student pretended to be shot. https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2019/09/07/why-schools-should-end-active-shooter-drills-immediately/#2d7986272a92
 

I thought Dr. Kapoor was going to object to the cat because Ella was pregnant and thus he would have to change the litter box. Was it just because of the cat’s name? I think I missed something.

It had something to do with the cat's name. She named it Calico and was calling it Callie. Kapoor said the name meant either something scared or sinister in Egyptian beliefs. I also didn't catch the dialog in its entirety.

[LittleIggy]

1 minute ago, preeya said:

It had something to do with the cat's name. She named it Calico and was calling it Callie. Kapoor said the name meant either something scared or sinister in Egyptian beliefs. I also didn't catch the dialog in its entirety.

It’s Hindu beliefs. Kali is a bloodthirsty Hindu goddess. I knew that.

[preeya]

9 hours ago, preeya said:

 

This is the dialog of Kapoor telling Ellie about the cat's name:

Change its name.

What's wrong with Callie?

Kali is a sacred Hindu goddess.

Often associated with the bloody death of demons.

Edited March 11, 2020 by preeya

[Aliconehead]

7 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I’ve heard of those type of drills traumatizing students but never heard of one where a student pretended to be shot. https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2019/09/07/why-schools-should-end-active-shooter-drills-immediately/#2d7986272a92

I know that the local school does a drunk driving “drill” where they “kill” a student who was driving drunk.  They bring a smashed car, the cops show up, there’s a big announcement.  So on but EVERYONE knows before hand.  This active shooter drill seems horrendously cruel. 

[ams1001]

49 minutes ago, Aliconehead said:

I know that the local school does a drunk driving “drill” where they “kill” a student who was driving drunk.  They bring a smashed car, the cops show up, there’s a big announcement.  So on but EVERYONE knows before hand.  This active shooter drill seems horrendously cruel. 

Yikes. We had the smashed up car thing out by the football field (as part of a pep rally/assembly thing shortly before the prom), but there were no cops or fake death. (We had enough tragedy during my time in high school; someone in the senior class died each of my four years there. Two were illness, but two were car accidents (though not involving drugs/alcohol).)

I typed up a few snarky comments last night as I watched and rolled my eyes, but then it just felt kinda pointless to post them. Meh. And I know it's terrible, but the assembly at the school (seriously, when does Iggy have time to do his job as the chair of his department?) had me imagining Mean-Girls-does-a-shooter-drill. "Who here has ever been shot in the head by Regina George?"

[mojito]

This episode was a real snoozer. 😴

[preeya]

Can someone explain what went on between Helen, Castro, and Max? Did she (Castro) really resign or was there some underlying plot that I totally missed. That entire drug trial arc made no sense to me.

 

[mojito]

I didn't get it either, so this is what I'm telling myself:

I think Helen got Castro to manipulate her testing to get Max in the drug trials. Because of that, she's letting Castro off the hook. She's shutting Castro's current testing down, but allowing Castro to leave without a soiled record. 

[preeya]

12 minutes ago, mojito said:

I didn't get it either, so this is what I'm telling myself:

I think Helen got Castro to manipulate her testing to get Max in the drug trials. Because of that, she's letting Castro off the hook. She's shutting Castro's current testing down, but allowing Castro to leave without a soiled record. 

That all seems reasonable, but doesn't Max have the final say in this situation?

What Helen is doing is tantamount to blackmail, and what's to stop Castro from doing the exact same thing wherever she lands?

It's becoming clearer but still doesn't sit right in my head.

[txhorns79]

49 minutes ago, mojito said:

I think Helen got Castro to manipulate her testing to get Max in the drug trials. Because of that, she's letting Castro off the hook. She's shutting Castro's current testing down, but allowing Castro to leave without a soiled record. 

From what I recall, Helen said she found out that Castro was manipulating her data to make her study seem more successful than it actually was.  However, she then said she couldn't just turn in Castro for manipulating data because the hospital would lose all of it's NIH funding.  She had to have the study blow up on its own so Castro would be done, but the NIH would not find out about Castro's unethical practices.  Hence, that is why Helen was manipulating Castro. 

[jabRI]

This episode was all over the place.  What happened to Helen's cute guy? I don't get why she's pining over Max

[UNOSEZ]

2 hours ago, jabRI said:

This episode was all over the place.  What happened to Helen's cute guy? I don't get why she's pining over Max

He's a handsome white guy with real manpain and a dead wife.. He's also go main character pheromones.. Which seem to attract all types no matter how odd it all seems 

[mojito]

5 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

From what I recall, Helen said she found out that Castro was manipulating her data to make her study seem more successful than it actually was.  However, she then said she couldn't just turn in Castro for manipulating data because the hospital would lose all of it's NIH funding.  She had to have the study blow up on its own so Castro would be done, but the NIH would not find out about Castro's unethical practices.  Hence, that is why Helen was manipulating Castro. 

That's true.

Did some checking because I was wondering where I got the idea that Max's treatment was related to the Helen-Castro showdown.

Helen isn't destroying Castro because Castro's research/technology is good and ahead of its time and it saved Max's life. Helen wants Castro's work to continue. (35:33 into the episode)

[txhorns79]

I'm just going to note that Reynolds is marrying a woman who apparently thinks that he is capable of murdering a patient.

The entire legal case made me so mad.  First off, the idea that a family of a terrorist who was only hospitalized because of the terrorist act he just had committed is suing the hospital for malpractice and wrongful death is absurd.  Second, they showed exactly why Evie would never be allowed to serve as her fiancee's attorney.  The moment she thought he murdered someone and she then turned off the tape recorder to ask the question is the moment she would be reassigned to a different claim.  Third, Bloom, as Chief of the ED, you likely see dozens of patients a day.  Even with an important case, it's unlikely you are going to remember every detail perfectly.  That's normal and not a cause for concern.  Finally, even if these are all terrible witnesses that a plaintiff's lawyer will go after hard, the decedent was a terrorist who was committing terrorist acts.  Given his terrorism is why he was hospitalized, that's likely going to get in, so that Evie was ready to give up entirely is just stupid. 

[CarpeFelis]

20 hours ago, preeya said:

It had something to do with the cat's name. She named it Calico and was calling it Callie. Kapoor said the name meant either something scared or sinister in Egyptian beliefs. I also didn't catch the dialog in its entirety.

He initially said it was because it’s a black cat. I’m glad he relented because the cat helps Ella with her anxiety, but that particular superstition really hacks me off. I make a point of adopting black cats for a few reasons (we currently have 3 plus one nonblack cat), not least of which is that they tend to be chosen less often from shelters because of this dumbass superstition. Also, of all the cats I’ve had, the black ones have had the best personalities!

[ams1001]

2 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

He initially said it was because it’s a black cat. I’m glad he relented because the cat helps Ella with her anxiety, but that particular superstition really hacks me off. I make a point of adopting black cats for a few reasons (we currently have 3 plus one nonblack cat), not least of which is that they tend to be chosen less often from shelters because of this dumbass superstition. Also, of all the cats I’ve had, the black ones have had the best personalities!

I want a little black cat, if I ever get another cat. I used to work with a woman whose daughter does photos for shelters in her area; she focuses on the black cats (and dogs) because they're so hard to get good pictures of.

[alexvillage]

I actually liked the shooter drill plot even tough it seems a bit too much that a school without a counselor would just traumatize kids. I wish they had put more emphasis on what Iggy said about trauma. The fact that those drills are something kids just have to grow up with is absurd but some schools have metal detectors which is also absurd. "Normal" is relative.

The way Iggy dealt with the kids in the assembly was a little over the top but I actually liked it. IT was a short version on how laypeople can try to minimize the building trauma that we might not even know is growing inside children.

 

[cathmed]

Not one of the better episodes.

Please stop with the WTWT with Helen and Max.  I thought that had been resolved?  I'm not sure if Max and Helen are having some unresolved feelings/doubts  but I'd rather the writers drop that like a bad habit--pronto!    They are colleagues and good friends; no need to make something romantic from this professional relationship.   Max seems to have a potential new gf--and I like her better than his wife, sorry to say--so just let that unfold.  At least the new love interest has more charisma and chemistry than Georgia did, they're both a little unsure of what comes next--and Max seems to like her--so let's develop that (and don't make her a psycho).    And what happened to Helen's love interest?  He seemed like a really good guy.

This storyline of  Kapoor and Ella - just not a fan.  She could have disappeared with the son storyline.

Helen/Castro manipulation/lying/falsifying the trials -  how is this any more unethical than when Helen was stripped of her duties because of the safe injection site?   Castro gets to save face but Helen is demoted and stripped of title and most responsibilities.  What if Max had been at the safe injection due to his addiction and Helen got him clean/saved him?  Would it be justified then to keep everything status quo?  Something just didn't seem quite right about this story-arc scenario, imo.

Iggy and school kids mock shooting - guess I'm not a real fan of Iggy's either.  It was handled OK but I don't know how realistic that approach is.   Seriously, the counselors, teachers, administration wouldn't know how this affected the students and less, wouldn't have been aware of the effects?  Is the school system honestly that obtuse?

[kirkola]

On 3/10/2020 at 11:09 PM, nixgirl28 said:

Wth kind of school has a shooter drill with an actual, although fake, gunman shooting blanks into classrooms and students pretending to be shot? They didn't tell the teachers about this drill but a teenage girl was in on it? Ok. Ridiculous.

Shouldn't Ella have checked with the person who's apartment she's living in before bringing home a pet? 

I know it happened in Florida.  A friend of mine's mom taught Special Ed and apparently the teachers were informed, but not the students.  So friend's mom is trying to comfort a room full of Special Needs kids who actually thought the school shooter was there to kill them. I get that Special Needs kids have different levels of understanding, but to have the shooter enter the room and waive the gun around was just unnecessarily cruel. Friend's mom retired shortly after that.  She couldn't take the stress after that.

Conversely, the college where my brother works had an active shooter drill setup by the police department for better training of the emergency response team.  Frequent emails explaining the situation and what steps to take were sent.  The majority of students were asked to stay home, though I think a few participated so teachers could be teaching at the time.  And the "active shooter" carried blanks and, afterward, there were some areas with fake-blood splatter, etc. 

[LittleIggy]

14 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm just going to note that Reynolds is marrying a woman who apparently thinks that he is capable of murdering a patient.

The entire legal case made me so mad.  First off, the idea that a family of a terrorist who was only hospitalized because of the terrorist act he just had committed is suing the hospital for malpractice and wrongful death is absurd.  Second, they showed exactly why Evie would never be allowed to serve as her fiancee's attorney.  The moment she thought he murdered someone and she then turned off the tape recorder to ask the question is the moment she would be reassigned to a different claim.  Third, Bloom, as Chief of the ED, you likely see dozens of patients a day.  Even with an important case, it's unlikely you are going to remember every detail perfectly.  That's normal and not a cause for concern.  Finally, even if these are all terrible witnesses that a plaintiff's lawyer will go after hard, the decedent was a terrorist who was committing terrorist acts.  Given his terrorism is why he was hospitalized, that's likely going to get in, so that Evie was ready to give up entirely is just stupid. 

ITA. It would be ridiculous to settle when the only reason the decedent needed medical attention is because he committed a terrorist attack meant to kill many people. The reason he had an adverse reaction to the toxin antidote was because he had already dosed himself with it. No jury would give him a penny. 🙄 The hospital should consult with an experienced trial attorney. Evie can do preliminary work on the case, but she shouldn’t be giving dispositive advice like that.

 

[LittleIggy]

14 hours ago, ams1001 said:

I want a little black cat, if I ever get another cat. I used to work with a woman whose daughter does photos for shelters in her area; she focuses on the black cats (and dogs) because they're so hard to get good pictures of.

I have a black Manx cat named Sigurd. He is Mr. Personality!

Edited March 12, 2020 by LittleIggy

[CarpeFelis]

9 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

I have a black Manx cat named Sigurd. He is Mr. Personality!

Awwwwww!

BTW in response to an earlier comment — the original name wasn’t Calico, it was Calliope. But Calico would be a delightfully ironic name for a black cat. Also I agree Ella should have consulted with Kapoor before deciding to bring a pet into his home!

[Lovecat]

On 3/11/2020 at 1:47 PM, preeya said:

Can someone explain what went on between Helen, Castro, and Max? Did she (Castro) really resign or was there some underlying plot that I totally missed. That entire drug trial arc made no sense to me.

 

 

19 hours ago, mojito said:

That's true.

Did some checking because I was wondering where I got the idea that Max's treatment was related to the Helen-Castro showdown.

Helen isn't destroying Castro because Castro's research/technology is good and ahead of its time and it saved Max's life. Helen wants Castro's work to continue. (35:33 into the episode)

Mojito is correct, but I can tell you that as a clinical research Quality Assurance professional, I was legit hyperventilating watching Helen switch all of those labels around!  Sweet Jesus on a pogo stick is that a major protocol deviation--my brain was spinning and my gut was churning thinking of all of the fallout there would have been if life at New Amsterdam even remotely resembled reality.  It did solve the "placebo or no" question, though--per the labels all those patients were getting a standard chemo drug (cisplatin, maybe? carboplatin?) + investigational agent A or B, one of which was likely a placebo.  I made a comment in another episode thread about the ethics of a placebo arm in an oncology trial, and I stand by it, but I meant a purely placebo arm, as in no treatment whatsoever, vs. an approved drug + placebo for an investigational agent.  No cancer patient (myself included--Stage IIIC melanoma in remission here) would sign up for something with a 50-50 chance of no treatment at all!

[ams1001]

8 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I have a black Manx cat named Sigurd. He is Mr. Personality!

Awwwww! 💖

[bros402]

This episode was just... weird, even for this show.

 

On 3/10/2020 at 11:09 PM, nixgirl28 said:

Wth kind of school has a shooter drill with an actual, although fake, gunman shooting blanks into classrooms and students pretending to be shot? They didn't tell the teachers about this drill but a teenage girl was in on it? Ok. Ridiculous.

Shouldn't Ella have checked with the person who's apartment she's living in before bringing home a pet? 

I think some schools in Michigan have had the insane drills where they have police, pretending to be a gunman, come into the school and act it out. Haven't heard of any where they have students play a part, though.

And yeah, at first I was thinking "Oh it must be a therapy cat at the hospital... wait, she's adopting it without checking with the guy whose apartment/house she is living in? what"

On 3/11/2020 at 9:23 PM, txhorns79 said:

The entire legal case made me so mad.  First off, the idea that a family of a terrorist who was only hospitalized because of the terrorist act he just had committed is suing the hospital for malpractice and wrongful death is absurd.  Second, they showed exactly why Evie would never be allowed to serve as her fiancee's attorney.  The moment she thought he murdered someone and she then turned off the tape recorder to ask the question is the moment she would be reassigned to a different claim.  Third, Bloom, as Chief of the ED, you likely see dozens of patients a day.  Even with an important case, it's unlikely you are going to remember every detail perfectly.  That's normal and not a cause for concern.  Finally, even if these are all terrible witnesses that a plaintiff's lawyer will go after hard, the decedent was a terrorist who was committing terrorist acts.  Given his terrorism is why he was hospitalized, that's likely going to get in, so that Evie was ready to give up entirely is just stupid. 

No, no, the most surprising part of the episode was that only eight patients came into the New Amsterdam ER during Bloom's shift. There were, what, 4 people including the terrorist who came in?

Either NYC agreed to not get hurt that day, or Bloom is forgetting a lot of stuff. Or they forgot New Amsterdam is in the MIDDLE OF NEW YORK CITY

[jabRI]

On 3/12/2020 at 8:58 AM, cathmed said:

What if Max had been at the safe injection due to his addiction and Helen got him clean/saved him?

I'm assuming this is just a wild hypothesis, or did you mean someone else?

[Dizzychickstar]

I think the show makes sure that all the main characters have storylines which include the hospital and some other out-of-hospital element...except Helen.  I don’t mind a little slow burn angst, but it seems like Helen is making the greater sacrifice in the Sharpwin dynamic. 

[KaveDweller]

On 3/11/2020 at 9:23 PM, txhorns79 said:

The entire legal case made me so mad.  First off, the idea that a family of a terrorist who was only hospitalized because of the terrorist act he just had committed is suing the hospital for malpractice and wrongful death is absurd.  Second, they showed exactly why Evie would never be allowed to serve as her fiancee's attorney.  The moment she thought he murdered someone and she then turned off the tape recorder to ask the question is the moment she would be reassigned to a different claim.

I was also confused about Evie, because I thought she was working somewhere else now. Isn't that why Reynolds is moving to San Francisco?

[Johnny Dollar]

Evie is the inside counsel for the hospital. She would not be the one handling the malpractice trial, so she wouldn’t be Floyd’s attorney. She was interviewing the doctors in the way the opposing counsel would interview them as a way to prepare them to be deposed. That being said, this case would go nowhere. The guy died because he already dosed himself with the antidote, and was dosed again in the ER causing a heart attack. All of the other victims recovered with just the single dose. No jury in this country would give this guy’s family a penny.

Helen recognizes that Castro’s methods saved St Max’s life, and believes that her research would be valuable. So, she gets rid of her nemesis, who can then continue her work elsewhere. A win/win for everyone except the viewers.

They should have had Tim Meadows play the principal when Iggy was giving his Ms. Norbury speech in the gym. 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Johnny Dollar

[LittleIggy]

I can’t remember. Did Evie take the SF job before discussing it with Floyd?

[bros402]

2 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I can’t remember. Did Evie take the SF job before discussing it with Floyd?

I do not believe so. I think she took it, then told him afterwards, I think he was like "You should take that!" And she was like "I already did!"

Or maybe another show had something like that happen - these shows I hatewatch sometimes blend together

[Mia Nina]

20 hours ago, Dizzychickstar said:

I think the show makes sure that all the main characters have storylines which include the hospital and some other out-of-hospital element...except Helen.  I don’t mind a little slow burn angst, but it seems like Helen is making the greater sacrifice in the Sharpwin dynamic. 

YES. Apparently Helen has no life outside the hospital.

I felt so heartbroken for her that she had to "confess" such a thing to Max. She shouldn't have to, IMO. Her character has been greatly sacrificed not only to set up a potential relationship with Max, but professionally too. She's been arrested, demoted, and she's still the one running around making sure things are fine in NA, not to mention her being the almost invisible hand that keeps Max together. 

Max/Helen is compelling, just not the fact that Helen's character suddenly only exists in relation to Max while he takes her for granted. It makes me like Max a lot less.

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Mia Nina

[KittenPokerCheater]

Eh, where I live we're all being encouraged to self quarantine, so bring on the Helen/Max romance.  I could use the distraction.

[LittleIggy]

What I find incomprehensible is Helen running around the hospital in 4 inch stilettos 👠!

[ktperry]

On 3/12/2020 at 8:58 AM, cathmed said:

Not one of the better episodes.

Please stop with the WTWT with Helen and Max.  I thought that had been resolved?  I'm not sure if Max and Helen are having some unresolved feelings/doubts  but I'd rather the writers drop that like a bad habit--pronto!    They are colleagues and good friends; no need to make something romantic from this professional relationship.   Max seems to have a potential new gf--and I like her better than his wife, sorry to say--so just let that unfold.  At least the new love interest has more charisma and chemistry than Georgia did, they're both a little unsure of what comes next--and Max seems to like her--so let's develop that (and don't make her a psycho).    And what happened to Helen's love interest?  He seemed like a really good guy.

This storyline of  Kapoor and Ella - just not a fan.  She could have disappeared with the son storyline.

Helen/Castro manipulation/lying/falsifying the trials -  how is this any more unethical than when Helen was stripped of her duties because of the safe injection site?   Castro gets to save face but Helen is demoted and stripped of title and most responsibilities.  What if Max had been at the safe injection due to his addiction and Helen got him clean/saved him?  Would it be justified then to keep everything status quo?  Something just didn't seem quite right about this story-arc scenario, imo.

Iggy and school kids mock shooting - guess I'm not a real fan of Iggy's either.  It was handled OK but I don't know how realistic that approach is.   Seriously, the counselors, teachers, administration wouldn't know how this affected the students and less, wouldn't have been aware of the effects?  Is the school system honestly that obtuse?

It was never actually resolved, they just knew they had to ignore it. Now that Georgia is dead it's harder for the two of them to put it
aside but it's also why it was/is necessary for now. Max and Alice are both grieving and trying to learn how to enjoy the things they used to love without
their spouses. There's already enough guilt and being with Helen would only make him more guilty because it's not like his feelings for her developed
after Georgia's death. And he also cares too much about Helen to be with her while grieving. He doesn't need to worry about that with Alice because they're both in the
same place, craving intimacy without something too serious.

Panthaki left because Helen wanted to stay at the hospital to help Max and the hospital. I don't blame him for being jealous but I wouldn't go as far as saying
that he seemed like a really good guy. He was childish storming off like he did. If you take out her feelings for Max, Helen was just doing what she loved most,
being a doctor. She shouldn't have to put that aside for him. She couldn't even put that aside for Max, why do it for him?

Do you mean how is Helen/Castro's manipulation/lying/falsifying the trials any less unethical? It's not, Castro only gets to save face because only she, Helen
and Max know about what she did. It would be even worse if the board knew because the hospital would lose it's funding. Helen/Max isn't just covering it up because Castro saved Max, she's covering it up because her treatment works, and if her career ends she own't be able to further her research. So she's giving her an opportunity to do it again the right way without falsifying the trials.

If Max had been at the safe injection site and Helen got him clean he still would not have been sober so both he and Helen would have probably been fired. 
 

[SnarkySheep]

On 3/11/2020 at 8:34 PM, UNOSEZ said:

He's a handsome white guy with real manpain and a dead wife.. He's also go main character pheromones.. Which seem to attract all types no matter how odd it all seems 

Don't forget that Max also has a baby! (Which, strangely enough, Sharpe was obsessed with having, yet we haven't heard a single word about all season...)

 

On 3/16/2020 at 12:22 AM, LittleIggy said:

What I find incomprehensible is Helen running around the hospital in 4 inch stilettos 👠!

This show isn't as bad as some others, but what I can't stand is medical shows with the female doctors or nurses having curling-iron hair...like, sure, I am totally positive that a woman about to go to her very intense hands-on job and be on her feet for 10 hours would do that, instead of just sweeping it up in a ponytail or bun.

[Emily Thrace]

On 3/15/2020 at 11:22 PM, LittleIggy said:

What I find incomprehensible is Helen running around the hospital in 4 inch stilettos 👠!

Some women do that though especially in New York City. To me it fits in with her character as a bit of a posh Brit with an emphasis on keeping up her appearance.  Besides her job is more administrative she probably spends more time in meetings and in her office more than anyone except Iggy.

Its also often a staging trick on tv because otherwise they would have trouble getting the much shorter actress in the frame with other taller actors. Dana Scully always wore heels because Mulder was 6'4". You would also note that Bloom played by a much taller actress does tend to stick to boots.